Forget About Reality, Confirm My Misguided Thinking

Gator says on Feb 4, 2006, 08:04:

BOY... THAT post really cut to the chase. Good one, Gomezman5. If I think what they propose is "safe"I will say so. If the post says, "Is it safe to wander about FARC territory with my thumb where the sun don't shine,"I will also say so. But you hit the nail on the head with this one.

"Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant. "Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapults habebunt."

"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

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utopiacowboy says on Feb 4, 2006, 08:47:

Yep. Pretty much sums it up.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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juancegomez says on Feb 4, 2006, 08:58:

It's an interesting observation... ...but still, one can also say that since the bad press that any kind of travel to Colombia gets far outweighs the good, the fact that discussions in PBH generally tend to give some confidence to would-be travellers is far from being inadequate. Balancing some already unbalanced scales can't be that bad.

In the end, even if all necessary safety measures are adopted, it's all up to your luck.

One may well get robbed or killed in the safest (statistically) corner of Colombia, or have an excellent experience in the most (statistically) unsafe place. Nothing is completely certain.

Nothing that one may or may not write here in PBH will change that.

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fugdis says on Feb 4, 2006, 09:00:

is it safe? can you give me some advice on safety?Do you think it would be safe to park my burra near elmo while i get a stranger to help me use the atm and then hail a cab off the street to the start point of my hitchhiking trip through farc territory.Will it be safe to wear shorts?I will be dressed as a blonde blue eyed gringa.thanks for any advice.

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morphus says on Feb 4, 2006, 09:05:

Don't ask me about safety in Colombia. I have'nt seen any crime in Colombia. Like a lot of people on here, i'm still in la la land where Colombia is super safe and all the women look like this..ha ha..fuckin ha!

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Gomezman5 says on Feb 4, 2006, 09:11:

Juancegomez.... "In the end, if all necessary safety measures are adopted, it's all up to luck."

Juancegomez, with the above line of yours, you are just starting with the same rhetoric. It doesn't recognize the fact that for some people and in many cases "all the necessary safety measures" (which in and of itself cannot be defined) just is not enough!

However, I did not start this thread for the purpose of debating the safety issue for the 100th time. The thread's purpose is to send the message that people don't honestly come here looking for real info on the security situation in Colombia. They already know that it is a dangerous place to go. Yet, they come here for people to tell them that in spite of the security and dangerous situation in cities like Cali, there are a bunch of delussional people that post by the hour telling others that it is a safe place to go. This Southern_Dyme person in the other thread is a perfect example of the type of person I am talking about....a person who cam to this site, hell bent on going to Colombia, but knowing how bad the security situation is, (that's how she started the thread)she sought comfort in everyone telling her to go. Actually, she could have saved herself a lot of time by just "Goodgleing" the PBH, and she could have learned for herself what everyone and then some had already posted a thousand times before. No new info was brought to light in her thread. Just the same old nonsense. But she knew the story. She just wanted everyone on here to say go ahead girl,,,,,,be safe, smart, and all that other crap and you will be fine. Well, she got what she was looking for. It's called "words of comfort."

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cam0940 says on Feb 4, 2006, 09:31:

For the record, I happen to agree with you Gomezman5.

It occurred to me that maybe people hear so much negativity about Colombia from the State Department and other sources that maybe they sincerely ARE looking for some positive spin, to balance out the information they are taking in elsewhere. Possible?

Just like you are frustrated with all the positive spin on PBH, outside of PBH, sources are dominated by negativity, even exaggerated negativity.

But let me close by saying that I agree with you in general. I just wanted to challenge you to think about the broader context. PBH can't possibly be the only info these people are getting.

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juancegomez says on Feb 4, 2006, 09:36:

cam0940 makes a valid point Most travel information on Colombia basically says: "it's a dangerous place, don't travel there if you don't have to", which is usually a generally correct statement, admittedly. But if anything, places giving a relatively positive spin such as PBH are as rare as perfect diamonds (I guess).

Gomezman5:
I usually don't post in safety discussions either, for that matter.

Yes, people have a right to know that some cities and places are safer than others, I'm not denying that.

I do recognize that safety measures may not be enough, just as I also recognize that in some other cases they may practically not even be that necessary in the first place.

But I'm also simply stating a fact of life: Nothing is completely certain. Is that a lie? It may be rhetoric, but it's rhetoric that applies to real life.

Does that mean that you shouldn't try to evaluate the specific security risks of a given area and simply "charge blindly into battle"? No. Should one not be as careful as possible when travelling to Colombia? No.

One should take into account all the necessary travel warnings and travel websites, ask all the available people with knowledge or experiences to share, research as much as possible, etc. and in the end simply make a personal decision, being ready to face the consequences (or lack of them), without blaming third parties for your decisions.

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Gomezman5 says on Feb 4, 2006, 09:54:

But JuanceGomez Don't you think that in terms of security, if one were to devise a comfort scale that ranged from very dangerous to realively safe, Colombia at a minimum, would be somewhere in the lowest half, if not the lowest quarter of degree of safety? I think so....without question. Then there is the question whether one should visit a country in that range. The answer to that varies from person to person.

But we have moved away from what I really wanted to discuss, and that is whether there are other such web sites that provide the comforting words to tell people to go, given the fact that they have already decided to do so.

I don't disagree that PBH makes an attempt to balance out the negative publicity that Colombia reicieves. All I am saying is that I honestly believe that PBH has an inheresnt bias in that everyone on this site is somehow affiliated with Colombia. They are from there, the married someone from there, they studies there, or.....and yes.....pardon me...but they go there for certain forms of activities that I dare not mention. But there is nobody here that speaks without bias. And where there is bias, the information, by definition, is inherently unreliable.

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juancegomez says on Feb 4, 2006, 10:13:

Gomezman5 "Don't you think that in terms of security, if one were to devise a comfort scale that ranged from very dangerous to realively safe, Colombia at a minimum, would be somewhere in the lowest half, if not the lowest quarter of degree of safety?"

Roughly speaking, perhaps so.

Not all places in Colombia are equally safe/unsafe, but the overall result is admittedly far from easily being in the top 50 safest countries in the world.

"Then there is the question whether one should visit a country in that range. The answer to that varies from person to person."

True, though see above as well.

"All I am saying is that I honestly believe that PBH has an inheresnt bias in that everyone on this site is somehow affiliated with Colombia."

True, but that bias doesn't always translate to "everything in Colombia is good". Sometimes it may, but far from always. Being affiliated with Colombia doesn't automatically prevent people from being able to admit the existence of its flaws and problems (even if not everybody has exactly the same opinion regarding those flaws and problems).

"But there is nobody here that speaks without bias. And where there is bias, the information, by definition, is inherently unreliable."

Strictly speaking, yes. They/We may be highlighting the positive side of their/our experiences a bit too much, downplaying the negative aspects of Colombian reality. I could admit that.

Still, the other side of the coin isn't exactly unbiased, by your standards.

People that know nothing at all about Colombia except, and just barely, that "it's a dangerous place, full of drugs and terrorists and jungle" are also biased too, and therefore the information that they may provide is also just as likely to be unreliable.

They may tend to be right about the negative aspects of Colombia, but their ignorance also makes them unreliable as far as the positive aspects are concerned.

One has to try and look at as much information as possible, from many different sources, in order to try and reduce the effects of both kinds of bias.

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Crazy4Cali says on Feb 4, 2006, 11:11:

The problem is.. in spite of those who merely seek comfort in hearing their opinions echoed, it's hard to describe Colombia to someone who hasn't been there, or anywhere south of the border. If you're from Suburbia, U.S.A. you have absolutely NOTHING in your experience from which to relate to living in Colombia or Latin America (I'm not talking about flying in to an airport and being shuttled to an all-inclusive resort, which is intentionally much like Suburbia, U.S.A.)

So how do you describe something that is incredible (in either direction)? For me, that's part of the appeal, to learn and experience something new, in all its texture. But, I accept the fact that this attitude has some inherent risk involved. So, for me, what's important is not "is it safe?" but "where is it safe, why is it safe, how is it safe" (or how is it dangerous so I can watch where I step)?

Unfortunately, I get the sense that most, though not all, such "is it safe" posters want, if not simply reassurance, some binary "yes or no" answer, which is impossible. But, as some have said, those people probably shouldn't go to Colombia in the first place.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Feb 4, 2006, 12:07:

I've always considered myself being somewhat in touch with reality. True, I have a strong bias, but that only makes me more aware of the reality and the possible safety issues, since I have something to compare with and I can depend on a lot of first-hand information on day-to-day basis from Cali. I find it extremely strange that all foreigners seem to be totally convinced that Cali has become an extremely dangerous place to be, however, most Colombians on this forum, for example, speak of "slightly increased insecurity" in Cali. Should I just discard the information coming directly from people that I know in Cali? In favor of information from an internet forum, how Colombia-savvy the posters may be?

I don't really need a second opinion in regards if I ought to travel to Cali or not, I'm going there whichever way. I have the tickets and I'm all set for the trip. I don't feel nervous or scared going to Cali, just a little unhappy that I may find myself even more limited in my options to enjoy my stay there.

I'll be reporting from the "belly of the beast"...of course those who'll bother to read will make their own conclusions, if I'm being objective or not.
Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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caslug says on Feb 4, 2006, 12:43:

Safety in COL is a hard situation to describe.. as POCO mention. if you're coming fr a ultra-suburbia, it'll be difficult to imagine what COL can be like. It's definitely a culture shock getting off the plane and taking that ride from airport to the city.

However, i do believe that a person can have a great safe exp in most cities in COL(incl. Cali), if they do things to minimize their risk. ie, dont go to juanchita in cali, walk around at night in el centro, always call a radio taxi, and much more things..

In regards to S_dyme, the big question would be NOT IF she's going to Cali, but WHY Cali over BOG. She last mention SAFETY as the biggest reason for CALI over BOG(as her professor told her). If she believes her Professor more than us posters, then i makes sense to choose cali. Also, if you were S_dyme, who would you believe a person you have personal contact with that you look up to(professor) or anonymous internet posters(pbh members)?

My biggest complaint about cali is the lack of nightlife and things to do, not safety(yes, I know cali has increase safety risk lately). Since i dont have significant other or relatives in Cali, why go to cali instead of other col cities(BOG, MED, CTG, etc.,) that are a little more fun and just as safe or safer than cali? For the guys w/ COL GF in cali, those guys would have visit their GF in ANY city in COL, for them safety is a concern, BUT they're motivated by different reason that outweighs safety.

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caslug says on Feb 4, 2006, 12:53:

Desi, your cali exp will probably be very safe.. i dont think you have anything to worry about, because you dont do the same things a SINGLE foreigners do. example,

Do head to bars or bar areas(avienda sexta) at night by yourself?
Do you walk alone a night in areas you're not familar with?
Do you go out with people you barely met?
Do you pickup or drop off your COL friends(bf/gf) at their homes, which can be in some iffy areas?

and many more things that a single person does, that a married person with family responsibility doesnt. AND of course you have friends and family that look out for you.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Feb 4, 2006, 13:17:

No, no, of course not but then again, I wouldn't do those things in Cali even if I were single and hmmm...a few years younger:) Just being a girl limits your options for free movement in a the night of Cali to a minimum; from the front of the tv set to your bedroom is a suitable distance and completely safe.

I'd go to Avenida Sexta bars and restaurants at night with a bunch a local friends.
I don't walk alone at night even in the areas I am familiar with. I don't walk in the areas I'm unfamiliar with in the daytime either, just take a taxi to the address I'm going.
I only go out with people I've known for a while, family and friends. People I've just met...oh gods, no, of course not! That's totally insane.
I don't pick up or drop off people, I'm the one who's picked up and dropped off, and my friends always wait until I'm safely inside the house before they drive away. Nothing iffy about my neighborhoods.

The thing about Southern_Dyme is that I can't put myself in her position. I don't know where she's coming from, how much experience she has of living in third-world cities, how well she can handle situations that migh come up in Cali. You need to have a lot of common sense and also trust your intuitions at the same time. If something feels iffy it probably is.

I have a little problem with people like gomezman who are trying to force-feed a certain preconceived asessment of a sitiation that they are not really familiar with. You can't figure out safety situation for you in Cali just in theory. There are a way too any variables and in this case, unknown variables to be able to reach a conclusion if Southern_Dyme would be ok in Cali or not.

Cheers,
Desi



Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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BaitedAphrodite says on Feb 4, 2006, 13:35:

Stuff for Locales? Hi,

My boyfriend and I will be travelling to Cartegena for a week close to the end of Feb. Im wondering if its appropriate to being stuff from Canada to give to the locales? Stuff like candy, personal hygeine items, school supplies etc. I have never been to South America before and I definitely don't want to insult someone by giving them a personal items etc, and I also don't want to bring stuff with me that they already have and don't need. Any suggestions on the matter would be helpful. Also, I have heard that the locales are super friendly, but do they swarm westerners in hopes of getting money etc?

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Feb 4, 2006, 13:42:

Baited, a lovely thought, but no. Instead, I'd suggest you'd visit the local orphanage and donate either money or stuff to needy children. If you want to do charity in Colombia you'll find suitable institutions (orphanages, shelters etc.) where you can give candy, hygiene items, school supplies and such and make many a needy child happy.
If you ever go to Cali, Colombia, stop by Insituto Oscar Scarpetta, they accept donations and are an absolutely serious and reliable organization.

Cheers,
Desi


Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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Gomezman5 says on Feb 4, 2006, 14:36:

Well....I knew that inevitably That we would be returning to the endless debate about how safe conditions are (or are not) in Colombia. I really did not want to go there. The debate is an endless one that cannot be resolved.

Insofar as my previous comment about bias however, my point stands. Almost everyone on this site has a preconcieved notion about security that is based on their own personal attachment with the country for the reasons set forth above. The bias clearly only goes one way, and that is the bias of those that participate in this forum who have in their own minds created this exagerated perception of security. And GringoD, you are wrong when you said that "Perception is a pretty large part of reality." PERCEPTION IS REALITY. The decisions that we make every day in our life, has little to do with reality in and of itself. We often deny reality when it stares us in our faces, in favor of a percieved notion that is contrary to relality. We just call it something differnt.

On the other hand, what reason could a disinterested person have to exagerate as to how dangerous Colombia is?Is it that the drugs come from there? No that cannot be it. Most of the drugs entering this country are coming in through Mexico and still, Mexico's tourism is alive and well.

I think you guys who are intrannsent in your postion that Colombia's has an acceptable degree of risk that makes it worth while telling a young gringa it's ok to travel there, rely on percepceptions when you give such advise. What a shame. I remember the day that it was universally agreed here that if you had family, or close friends in Cali, you would be relatvely safe to make a short visit. At the same time, we would never tell a young gringa, with no family network, nobody there to watch over her day to day affairs, where to go and where not to go.....that it was OK to take a trip there for an extended period living in some apartment to study there. That is just simply bizare. Totally bizarre. Desi, people like you lose perspective when you advise such conduct. You know Cali. You have close friends You lived there. You know your way around. How can you for a hot second compare this young gringa to yourself? Get the point?

LIke I said, these people have already made up their mind they are going, and they sure have got enough people here, in as reckless manner as possible, not taking into accunt all the variables ratifying the ignorance of a would be tourist that can least afford to take such a risk. A young girl from the US going for the purpose to write a disertation on salsa music.. The thought is comical..

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Wastelandlive says on Feb 4, 2006, 14:51:

Mighty Aphrodite... Colombia is not Cuba. Unless you're travelling to the absolute poorest outskirts of Cartagena, I think most Cartageneros would be bemused by a gift of soap or toilet paper.

And no, they're not going to swarm you for gifts. The walking vendors will nag you incessantly to buy their crap, and there is a small problem with street urchins in the important plazas of the old city.

But if I read your message correctly, I think you've got the wrong idea of what to expect in Cartagena. Please, don't try to wow the natives with your shiny zippo lighter; they've seen it before.

Wasteland

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GregYohn says on Feb 4, 2006, 14:56:

Safety Hey!

On my recent flight from Bogota to Cartagena, a trucking company exec flying for the day said they did not have 1 hijacked truck between the 2 cities last year. He said the bus is fine also and even suggests his kids take the bus too.

Local Colombian citizens able to track crime would seem to indicate things are alot different than 5 yrs ago when the company lost 1% of their trucks at $150,000 USD each. His words, not mine!

Greg

12VOIP.com gives free calls to Colombia.Greg

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Gomezman5 says on Feb 4, 2006, 14:57:

What the hell? What does "BatedAphrodite's" post have anything to do with what is being talked about in this thread? Look lady, if you want to know what to bring with the Bo to Cartagena, why don't you just start your own thread and ask the question. You might even get more responses?

This girl must be lost

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morphus says on Feb 4, 2006, 15:14:

Santa Tourist Yeah, if you want to give out gifts and feel good about yourself, go to Cuba. They will love you there. A pair of Nikes in Cuba is like having a Rolls Royce.

In Cartagena, they mostly want your money.

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Gomezman5 says on Feb 4, 2006, 15:17:

Morphus.......and a T-Shirt can put a real smile on a man's face (I am NOT speaking from personal experience)......just hearsay

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Feb 4, 2006, 15:18:

"How can you for a hot second compare this young gringa to yourself? Get the point?"
Gomezman5

Oh, but I didn't! If you read carefully you would have noticed that it was precisely my point. I can't put myself in her position, since I have no idea of where she's coming from. I can only speak for myself.

And yet, I've been there, standing alone, young and a little bewildered, in Cali, long ago. No Spanish, no idea of really how to take care of myself. It was another time, much less dangerous, I s'ppose, yet it could've been lethal for somebody as innocent as what I was at that time. If your instincts are good you can still make it in this world, almost anywhere.

Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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Gomezman5 says on Feb 4, 2006, 15:47:

Desi...I read your post perfectly...... What annoyed me was how you just kind of touched on the periphery of the differences between you and this gringa. You were what I believe is called "Hedging." You tried to play both sides. You identify the differences, but you clearly gave the impression that for the most part, it would be ok for her to go. To show you how correct I am in interpreting your post, all I have to do is go back to Souther_Dymes thread. You told her to go......point blank. So forget this nonsense of downplaying the reality of the situtaion. She should NOT go..period, and you should tell her as such. None of this nonsense of let her make up her own mind. You don't tell unsuspecting people that it is ok to do something where the risk to their life is real and serious.

In the meantime, since I started this thread, I have recieved three messages from people who gave very real descriptions as to what had happened to them. I will not post them. But I did ask them to post, and maybe they will. I am curious however as to why they are sending me PMs and they are reluctant to contribute to this thread. Incidently, I have never heard of any of these people before. Nevertheless, the descriptions of their ordeals were quite graphic. Two of them admit that they are still being treated both by conseling and medication due to the trauma of their ordeals.

And you guys tell a young Gringa to go and study there.....amazing
And by the way, in spite of your knowledge and familiarity, Desi, you really don't belong living there either....bed and breakfast, or otherwise. You look like the perfect gringa to swipe off the street.

One more point. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to realize that it is not safe to visit a country where person is willing to kill you (in the form of a "hit") for $25.

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morphus says on Feb 4, 2006, 16:01:

True Gomezman5, I gave away a lot of shirts when i first started going to Cuba. I was a young buck back then. I soon realized that nice deeds don't earn you any respect there. Cubans will laugh behind your back and sell your gift to other Cubans most of the time. One time i burned a few CDs and printed out the alblum covers. The Cds looked like they were from the store. They only cost me around 30 cents to make. I gave them away to few guys i know in Cuba. They turned around and sold them for $5 each the next day. I only found out from another Cubano that was'nt there that day and was jealous. I did'nt care but they thought I was stupid. They did'nt know anything about burning CDs from the computer for free. I got the last laugh though. I had my way with one of the guy's girlfriends.

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Gomezman5 says on Feb 4, 2006, 16:06:

And Morphus......Good for you because, Sometimes revenge can be sweet, and in your case even sweeter......

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juancegomez says on Feb 4, 2006, 16:22:

... Just going to say one more thing...since when Gomezman5 says so confidently that bias "clearly only goes one way" that basically implies that trying to prove otherwise is moot, and thus I won't even try.

But that doesn't change the fact that bias is never a one way road, even if both sides of the road aren't identical. A person's perception of reality might be more accurate in certain respects, yet that hardly makes anyone completely unbiased.

"One more point. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to realize that it is not safe to visit a country where person is willing to kill you (in the form of a "hit") for $25."

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that the number of countries, or even cities worldwide, where such a statement could also perfectly apply is greater than you might want to believe.

And yet the number of people that travel to those countries isn't zero. But you probably won't get PMs about those other countries here.

For some people that risk may well be unacceptable, but others will disagree and may or may not regret that decision.

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Gomezman5 says on Feb 4, 2006, 16:52:

So what's your point Juancgomez?? I have 2. First, for any bias to exist, there has to be a motive or incentive, if you will to be biased. Where is the motive for the State Department to be biased in it's travel advisories against Colombia? In fact,if anything, since Uribe is about as friendly of a president from a Latin American country that George Bush or any US president could ever ask for (especially since there has been this tide to the Left) if anything, the State Department has damn good reason to tone down those State Department warnings that the people of PBH so quickly dismiss away as exagerated in scope and context. Right Senor????

On the other hand, need I have to reiterate how glaringly obvious it is for one to be of Colombian origin (like myself incidently), or being married to a Colombian, that it would be virtually impossible for such a person to have the ability to make an honest assessment as to how safe their nation (the motherland) is? Please, you're not exactly being intellecutally honest here.

And secondly, as to your point that there other countries that are similarly situated in terms of the number of countries where there is a guy on a street corner that would knock you off for next to nothing.....yea ...so what? I did not say that Colombia was unique. Did I? I just said you would have to be an idiot to want to make that the type of place (country) to go study for a semester for the purpose of pursueing some educational endeavorer. Come on Juance, you are going to have to do better than that ....twisting my words into a point that I never made is hitting below the belt and not like you. At this point, I think my statement regarding the $25 hit are crystal clear. (Just in case someone else wants to come to a conclussion that was not stated or implied for that matter.)

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utopiacowboy says on Feb 4, 2006, 17:03:

Even though it's covering territory we've travelled before it's a very interesting thread with a lot of good comments. I must admit that you hear and read a lot of uninformed comments about Colombia's safety situation. The vast majority of people simply assume that it's far too dangerous to travel there at all which I think is a bit extreme.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Feb 4, 2006, 20:59:

With all due respect I respectfully disagree with you on this one, G5.

People come here to PBH looking for more granular info that you're going to find at, say, the State Department or by reading an outdated book. While there are some poster here who give what seems like naive advice that Colombia is totally safe, etc., there are others who try to give factual and knowledgable advice based on our first hand experience. The fact is there's very little good information available about safety in Colombia. Yet there ARE plenty of good reasons that someone may have to want to travel here.

Your comment about a $25 hit is, frankly, disengenuous. I don't think very many visitors to Colombia are in danger of being the victim of a Comuna 13 score-settling hit like that. In fact the likelihood of ever even meeting someone in that scene is very low, much less pissing them off and being whacked for $25. And if you'd have to be insane to visit Colombia for pleasure or education, I'm curious, what's your excuse for visiting then?

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Gomezman5 says on Feb 4, 2006, 21:12:

Hollywood..... You got in here a little late. But the beiging of my thread, including Crazy4cali's point, was the message that I was trying to convey...I have been around here long enough to stand firm on what I postulate. Virtually nobody seriously comes here for advise on security. They just come here to here what they want to hear so that can reject everbody else who tells them that Colombia is not safe.

Hollywood, I will prove I am correct right now. While there are dozens of sites, aside and apart from State Dept warnings, that will warn you against travel to Colombia, can you find me at least one other site besides this one that seems to so easily dismiss these warnings away? I know of none. The prevailing view, by far and a way is you can go to Colombia "if you take necessary caution" or some silly words of that nature. Where else do you consistently hear this perspective like you do on the Pro Colombia, dismiss away the reality web site known as PBH? Answer: Nowhere. So, is the whole world crazy? What is this unique knowledge that PBH members have, (except their bias for reasons explained above) that would allow someone from the outside to come in here and recieve info that is really worth taking seriously in terms of safety? The answer is obvious. Biase people, pontificating about a situation that in reality, is far closer to what the State Department says, than what people on PBH believe, or portray Colombia to be.

One more thing. Don't play a JuanceGomez and take what I wrote out of context. I did not say that a tourist is likely to be a victim of a hit person who does the job for $25. Where do you even remotely see that? I did say that this is common in Colombia, and that being the case, why would someone, like this gringa talked about in the other threadm, be interested in coming to Colombia to study in a country, where the economy is so bad, and life is treated so cheaply, that the lurking danger would make her that much more vulnerable to being a victim herself? Now do you undersand my point? To put it another way, in this country, mafia hitmen get paid 50-75 thousand dollars to kill someone. That means it is not likely that too many people could even afford to have you killed. But $25 ? I understand that 25 dollars in Colombia is worth a lot more than in the US, but the difference is still tremendous. Desperate situations make people do desperate things. In Colombia, things are really desperate to be sure...

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Mr. Hollywood says on Feb 4, 2006, 21:31:

$50,000 hits? Maybe if they're trying to take down a mob don or something. I know people in the US who would kill you for about $500.

I wouldn't trust the job to be done right, or the person to keep their mouth shut if the job went bad, but it'd be trivial to find someone in your hometown of Chicago to at least TRY to kill you for $500. And I know for sure they'd give you a good ass-kicking for a cool $200. So that's about what the $25 hit equals in the US.

Don't worry though, I've got a lot better things to do with my money.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Feb 4, 2006, 21:32:

Other site The only other site I've ever even seen Colombia travel discussed on, btw, is the thorn tree, which appears to be even LESS concerned about safety than PBH. We're a bunch of nervous nellies compared to those kids.

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Gomezman5 says on Feb 4, 2006, 22:05:

Hollywood....yea sure "I know people in the US who would kill you for about $500."

Would you mind if I said, I don't believe you. You know of No such person that would do that. You may wish you did so you could prove me wrong. On the other hand if you did no of such people, than perhaps that says something about from walk of life you come from. :) Be carefull what you say........

Yes sir, 50 t0 75 is the going rate, depending on the complexity and resources. That is why the ONLY people that ever get hit, are 1. Italian mafia coordinated hits and 2.People who attempt to hit men for the purpose of collecting insurance proceeds. If as you contend that people could be killed here for as little as 500 dollars, than you would be having hits taking place in every single major city in this country every day of the week. In Colombia, I would not be surprised if that happened at the rate of 25 dollars. With law enforcement being anywhere from ineffective to nonexistant, one would actually never even know if a hit had occured or not....

And as to your contention that there is another site (1)that addresses the issue of Colombia travel, you just make my point for me. Everyone else's warnings should be ignored because the PBH cheering squad knows better. Come on Hollywood,,,,,,give me a break.

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Masterpiece says on Feb 4, 2006, 23:58:

Currently living in Ecuador I have lived in central and South America going on 7 years now. I settled down in Ecuador, and during the past couple of years the unemployment has really increase. It is basically impossible to get a job here. I am a engineer in Computer Systems, but have spent most of my time teaching English. I am from North America, and due to the lack of work here in Ecuador I am looking to move to another country within South America. I have done some research on Colombia but I am still not sure if moving there is a good idea. I would like the opportunity to chat with others who are living in Colombia, so I can get a better idea how life and work is there. Please feel free to send me a private message if you believe you may have any information that may help influence my decision. Regards

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dwmte says on Feb 5, 2006, 05:56:

hello, marcos well i'm not sure if i agree or disagree with the context of this thread...that being your's and other posters.

i can only speak for myself and my personal experiences over the past umpteen years...since 1989.

why would people want to come to colombia despite the obvious dangers in doing so. i would guess that it's primarily based in the old spirit of adventure. for myself, it was a matter of business. but i did find myself up over my head in the realities of everyday life in colombia back in the beginning. bombings were daily, killings were many-times daily, sequestros, around the clock and rape as common as breathing. now what would make anyone want to come and chance that. i guess i have to say i'm not sure. i ended up getting married to a paisa and raising a family. but that does not end the 'bias' on my part...hardly, it's wide of the actual bias. the reality for me is that all dangers aside and the dangers are real...you can get real dead, real quick in colombia with little or no trouble to yourself. never forget that.

if all one does is go to medellin and hang out in the enclave of poblado; or to cartegena and hang out within the old city; or to bogota and just see the zona rosa, the liklihood of a death-dealing experience are truly rare...however, stepping outside of those parimeters changes the equation to the extreme.

if i've said it once on this site, i've said it hundreds of times. if you're gonna explore colombia outside the safety of known areas, wait til you've developed your colombian ship's legs....otherwise, you are courting you demise. now i've been all over antioquia in areas where a wise colombian wouldn't go...but i had a real well cured clue as to what i was doing, where i was going, what i intended to do when i got there and who i would do it with. that knowledge doesn't come easy, it took years to develop that sixth sense of my surroundings.

now, that being said, should i dissuade another curious person from venturing off to colombia. i think not. by the same token, i should tell them the truth about the deadly realities that therein exixt, as well. which i have always done over the last number of years on this site as well as on 'colombia experts' ....another site where the posters tend to influence wouldbe travellers to go to colombia.

i think that a disservice is done to the greenhorn traveller only if the information is false and omits the cautions necessary to in part equip the unprepared traveller to a land where murder and sequestre are far to common for the general safety of mass humanity.

so, in conclusion, i recommend to the hearth would-be traveller, go, enjoy yourself. and to the not so hearty, and self conscious person, i'd say, don't go. colombia outside of it's protected sections is not for the feint hearted and weak.

dw

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BaitedAphrodite says on Feb 5, 2006, 08:04:

Well thanks for the responses - at least one person actually had helpful advice. I will look into finding orhanages in Cartengena - and no I wasn't going to start flashing a "shiny new zippo" around.

I just would rather hand out gum or choclate bars then money to everyone who asks.

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Gomezman5 says on Feb 5, 2006, 08:35:

Hi dwmte.....I agree with you but How hare you dwmte. I appreciate your imput. Your description of the security/safety situation in Colombia is much more realistic than what most of the the characters around here post....That is for sure. But then again, you are a more realistic person too...and a kind one at that.

The only are where we part is with regards to your conslusion wherein you are reccomending that a person go and "enjoy yourself." Douglas, look, you married a paisita. That's great. You now have family and/or extended family there as a support mechanism to look out for your interests, and to give you around the clock guidance while you are there

The above said, it should be intuitively obvious to the most cassual of observers that the cassual tourist, or the lady such as Souther_Dyme that is talked about in the otheer thread will not be so fortunate. That fact changes things dramtically and should cause you to take pause as to whether a person like her should venture to Colombia alone. She is a young gringa interested in writing a thesis on Salsa and has decided that Cali would be ideal for her to pursue her work. Do you see where I am going here. She will be alone. Also, young people, tend to be more adventurous and will often take chances unescorted venturing into areas where dangerous are as real as the ones you described above. Oh sure, if she goes to places like Chipi Chapi, or La Sexta, she will be relatively safe, but I don't thik a young a young female student who like to be ambitious and explore her surrounding will limit herself to those types of places. What if she makes a friend who lives in Florida, a puebleo just 45 minutes outside of Cali proper. This area has littleraly been run over by the FARC. They just put my friend family store out of business. The threat of kidnapping is profound. Should a young gringa like S Dyme reall go to a place like this where danger is litterally at her door step? I think not. So I thnak you for your remarks, but I disagree with your conclussion given the fact that your circumstances, are much different than that of the average tourist.

One more thing. Who is this aphrodite person talking about handing out gum and candy in a thread about security? Strange

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Wastelandlive says on Feb 5, 2006, 12:45:

Who is she? Who knows? She seems a little dazed and confused.

Perhaps you could kill two birds with one stone, and recommend that she take her gifts of "candy, personal hygeine items" and "school supplies" to Cali, where the Colombians expect - and appreciate! - being condescended to by self righteous do-gooding gringas.

We'd at least have an exciting new PBH story to share:

"There I was in the Sexta, trying to give this poor begger in a wheel chair a free role of toilet paper. When he finally understood what I was offering, a look of rage came over his face. He stood up - I thought he was crippled! - he pulled a knife, backed me against the wall and took my wallet..."

"And it was Charmen, the REALLY fluffy stuff!"

Too funny.

Wasteland

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juancegomez says on Feb 6, 2006, 12:02:

G5:
"One more thing. Don't play a JuanceGomez and take what I wrote out of context."

Now that's like the pot calling the kettle black, when you have done pretty much exactly what you are accusing me of doing (and not once, but at least twice in this same thread)...but if it makes you happy, don't let that bother you.

In any event, both Mr. Hollywood AND dwmte have already made some points which I probably failed to/forgot to/didn't make clearly enough (and with which I happen to agree, in spite of what G5 might believe), so that's that.

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Albatross says on Feb 6, 2006, 12:09:

Sugar and Spice and Everything Nice... Maybe she can convert a few savages to Christianity while she's there.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Gomezman5 says on Feb 6, 2006, 13:59:

Sorry JuanceGomez.... I beg to disagree with you. I respond to what you say and I respond directly. I don't put words in peoples hands (mounths). You did just that when you mentioned how there were other countries besides Colombia where a person could hire a hit man for 25. That comment was utterly without merit, in that it had nothing to do with the thread. This thread is about Colombia, and more specifically about security in Colombia, so what difference would it make if there were 50 other countries or no other countries where you could obtain a hit man for such a cheap amount.

But then again, they say when people use diversionary tactics (which is what that was) to rebutt someone's argument, that means they have nothing substantively to counter the argument to begin with. It is almost the same, (but not quite as bad) as when people can't respond to my substantive arguments, they start attacking my spelling.

But, I don't misinterpret your words Juancegomez, and I don't put words in your typing hand. I respond directly to what you assert. Hey, sometimes I agree with you. So take that into consideration.

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juancegomez says on Feb 6, 2006, 14:45:

.... "I don't put words in peoples hands (mounths). You did just that when you mentioned how there were other countries besides Colombia where a person could hire a hit man for 25. That comment was utterly without merit, in that it had nothing to do with the thread."

I didn't change what you said, I only extrapolated what you said about Colombia to other nations, to make a comparison. That might be taking the discussion to places where you don't want to go, granted, but that is not putting words in your mouth. Does anyone think that qualifies as such? I'd like to see how many people here in PBH think that.

"This thread is about Colombia, and more specifically about security in Colombia, so what difference would it make if there were 50 other countries or no other countries where you could obtain a hit man for such a cheap amount."

It makes a difference, because even if the thread is about Colombia, that doesn't mean that no comparisons can be made (you and others have also made or implied such comparisons), and that in turn the conclusions that stem from those comparisons can't be applied back to Colombia. Is there something in the rules which prohibits this? I'd like to see.

"But then again, they say when people use diversionary tactics (which is what that was) to rebutt someone's argument, that means they have nothing substantively to counter the argument to begin with."

It isn't a diversionary tactic, because it doesn't evade the point. It actually puts the point in a wider context (a worldwide context) in order to make an argument and from there goes back and applies it to Colombia, with or without additional commentary.

"It is almost the same, (but not quite as bad) as when people can't respond to my substantive arguments, they start attacking my spelling."

I don't, I could care less about someone's spelling, especially since mine isn't perfect either.

"But, I don't misinterpret your words Juancegomez, and I don't put words in your typing hand. I respond directly to what you assert."

That might be correct sometimes...but this time you did. For example, you did it when I made a comment about biases you brought the State Department into it and so on, when I wasn't talking about the State Department per se but about the comments made by foreigners and foreign sources in general (and you somehow insisted that there could be no such bias, etc.).

"Hey, sometimes I agree with you. So take that into consideration."

I should, I suppose. That doesn't mean that I will completely agree with everything you've posted, so I'll keep making these comments when I believe it to be necessary.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 6, 2006, 21:38:

Hard to keep up with the continuous shifting argument... Deja vu: http://www.poorbuthappy.com/colombia/node/7975

I just scanned through to find some data backing up the BS that some people write. Nothing. On the other hand, just for comparison's sake, SafeStreetsDC reports that the murders per capita in DC in 2002 was a bit over 44 per 100K (http://www.safestreetsdc.com/subpages/murdercap.doc). Bogotá was about half that rate in 2004 according to "Bogotá Cómo Vamos" (http://eltiempo.terra.com.co/PROYECTOS/RELCOM/RESCON/BOTCOM/MOCBAJ/SECI/Garzon/index.html). Bogotá's rate is, in fact, very similar to Chicago's. I believe that, after much improvement, Medellín is hovering around DC's numbers (I saw the data somewhere, but can't find it, sorry).

Of course, there are other aspects of security not directly linked to murders (kidnappings, burglary, etc.) But, I guess if you were to use a rule of thumb, this would be a good one.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Mr. Hollywood says on Feb 6, 2006, 21:45:

Sr. Tertius I'm curious, Tertius, do the data for WAshington D.C. include ONLY the actual District of Colombia or do they cover the "metropolitan area"? The only way I can imagine a murder rate that high is if they're only counting the district, which would be a bit like deriving New York's homicide rate by only looking at the South Bronx.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 6, 2006, 22:03:

DC only (I did not pretend to generalize any further) Admittedly, this is the worst case in US cities with populations over 500K. I've only driven through So. Bronx, but I've spent some time in DC, visiting. All I'm saying is, if you are okay spending some time in DC, you'll probably be okay spending some time in Bogotá, cultural and language factors aside.

But you remind me of an important point, that making shallow generic statements about large geographical areas (i.e., "Colombia is dangerous") is not very informative. No, I wouldn't suggest to anyone to spend their vacations in Putumayo, but to generalize that to Northern Bogotá, or even downtown Bogotá, would be kind of doltish.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Rubiazo says on Feb 6, 2006, 22:28:

Actually downtown Bogota is the area you want to AVOID at night above all others. Once the suits go home it gets desolate except for the indigentes!

Mr. Hollywood, 90% of NYC's homicides are in Brooklyn actually. But almost half of the population of NYC lives there as well!

Thats is probably the biggest difference between North and South America. Here most of the homicides occur in a few really bad neighborhoods, where is in South American cities they tend to be much more spread out all over the map. AND also the way Bogota and other Colombian cities have their city limits, most people are living inside. Almost 7 million people live in the city proper, and maybe another million tops live in outlying areas. SA cities also tend to be more condensed and have fewer suburbs than their NA counterparts.

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Gomezman5 says on Feb 6, 2006, 22:38:

So now there are those that would compare Bogota to Chicago You know, I come to this site as much for its entertainment value as I do for information.

I wonder where all the mafiosos, paramilitaries, and guerillas are in Chicago? Come out Come out whereever you are....

Didn't some of you guys learn that the US civil war ended in 1865?

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 6, 2006, 22:47:

Downtown, uptown Although I spent most of my adulthood downtown Bta (college--nights, of course, included) and Galerías (working, not much nocturnal activity there though), the one time I got mugged in Bogotá was in Parque de la 93. But when I think of it, Rubiazo, downtown is probably not the place you want to go for a stroll at night. However, the worst I think could normally happen, is that you get mugged. Murdered for $25? Unlikely. In other respects I tend to agree with your assessment (don't know about NYC, but I know I didn't like to hang out too late in Jackson Heights... to many Colombianos, he he... bad joke).

"that is comical stuff: vacation in Putamayo!"

It WOULD be comical if some people didn't have this in their mind when writing the kind of nonsense you find here. Man!

Now, I scanned through this forum again, and I find that darn word, over and over and over: "bias." Is this a US thing? All I hear in the news here (US) is "bias" this, and "bias" that, as it if was leper... "me? bias... no no no, you bias! you! no, him! him bias!" Never heard it from anyone else! The Spanish translation, "sesgo," is rarely if EVER used, except for the paranoid right and left, who see "sesgos" against them everywhere.

Could someone, honestly, explain to me what is this fear of bias. Biasophobia: Fear that others (particularly news organizations) may have a systematic opinion that differs from yours. I don't understand it. Seriously.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 6, 2006, 22:52:

GM5 I stick to the numbers. Got something better than that? Wait, no, I'm sure this is going to start shifting somewhere else... I quit, I give up, Bogotá is infested with guerrilla and paramilitary troops, there were reported combats in Los Héroes recently, watch out. Also, watch out for the boobytrapped ATMs, they are true. Didn't Don Berna have his headquarters in 100 x 15? I hear Raúl Reyes' apartment in Los Rosales is splendid!

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Gomezman5 says on Feb 6, 2006, 23:03:

Bogota ......Chicago.....uh....lol !! If someone would really be willing to say the Bogota is safer than Chicago, he might qualify for a spot on Comedy Central.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 7, 2006, 22:06:

GM5 You are getting all worked up, all by yourself. Let me make it clear, maybe with caps, so you can read it clearly. All I said was:

"Bogotá's rate is, in fact, very similar to Chicago's"

Sorry, forgot the caps

"BOGOTA'S RATE IS, IN FACT, VERY SIMILAR TO CHICAGO'S"

Nobody is saying that Bogota is safer, prettier, closer to the Equator, drier, etc. than Chicago. The only comparison was of murder rates, nothing more.

See the effort it takes to stop your argument shifting? I am not even arguing here, I only present two numbers, which are, arguably, similar. That's all.

I'm afraid I know what follows in the script: you will accuse me of taking your words out of context (but I don't know how much more context should I provide to disambiguate the sentence "If someone would really be willing to say the Bogota is safer than Chicago..."), and then I... well, that's where I get bored and move forward.

You've proven to me just one thing, though: that YOU don't like Bogota. That's fine with me, and I think it's fine for a lot of people. Don't bother going there. But I like Bogota, and I am going back in April (!!!) and take my very American girlfriend with me, and I believe we will have a great time. If you have a problem with that, well, that breaks my heart, but there is little that I can do about it.

If you want to keep fighting with yourself, that's your choice. If you want to continue yelling "daydreamers!" at the walls, fine. I'll even drop by occasionally and may try to throw you a rope to connect you back to the rest of the universe. Right now, I'm busy making plans for my trip, sorry.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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dwmte says on Feb 8, 2006, 12:07:

marcos, et al.... i guess i wasn't really as cautionary as i might have been, but i would choose not to do a disservice to colombia at the same time as trying to convince the un-seasoned traveller about the need for serious caution in areas outside of the 'safe' zones in bogota, cartegena and medellin (note that i have never recommended cali as a destination on this site or others)

the need for cautionary action in colombia cannot be emphasised enough by one such as myself who has ventured deep into the danger zone or by others who have simply visited the tourist spots.

danger in colombia is VERY REAL! to any of you going for your first time and especially for the young lady who apparently initiated the thread, i cannot emphasize this enough. for a foreigner, i would probably feel safe in saying i have experienced colombia far more than others who have visited there many times and even those who have lived there for a short or a long time. it's just my nature.

however, that being said, i am a very seasoned traveller and have worked all over africa, the middle east, india, mexico, cent and south america. so i have to come down a bit and be serious just to convey to the new and interested traveller the need for caution in this most magnificent and interesting country.

should you be convinced to go, do so knowing that countless dangers abound there and the need for caution cannot be emphasized enough. venturing out of the 'safe' zones is not for the feint hearted. remember that and travel with caution.

dw

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Mr. Hollywood says on Feb 8, 2006, 12:30:

biasophobic "Could someone, honestly, explain to me what is this fear of bias. Biasophobia: Fear that others (particularly news organizations) may have a systematic opinion that differs from yours. I don't understand it. Seriously."

As you've sensed, "bias" is what we gringos call an opinion we don't like that is different from our own. It comes, frankly, with the gringo obsession with "one objective truth". See, my truth is objective and correct where your's is just, well, biased.

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Colombiche says on Feb 8, 2006, 13:15:

G5 When was the last time you went to Bogota?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Gomezman5 says on Feb 8, 2006, 13:20:

Colombiche Last year...in the fall (2005)
And your point is??

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Colombiche says on Feb 8, 2006, 13:51:

Hmmm For somebody of Colombian heritage, I think that you are paiting some very unlikely scenarios. For instance you say that in Colombian somebody gets whacked for $25. Yes, maybe in the drug circles "al que la debe". Who would actually pay somebody else to whack a gringa student that is writing a thesis on salsa? For that matter, I doubt that a young university student who is probably on a meager budget would actually become a kidnap victim.

As Colombians we should not deny the dangers of our country such as muggings, robberies, being caught in the crossfire of insurgent fighting (if you happen to live in a rural area), extortion (if you own land or significant property).

However, I think the picture you paint of Colombia sounds a bit like the first five minutes of Mr. and Mrs. Smith. That is why I had to ask you if you had actually visited the place recently.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Feb 8, 2006, 13:57:

Oh... And on the discussion about Colombian salsa, you forgot to point out that Colombian composers have had their hand at catapulting many Puerto Rican artists to fame. M. Ibarra, wrote most of the hits interpreted by Tito Rojas, Tito Gomez, Primi Cruz, Choco Orta, Sonora Poncena, Oscar de Leon..... and Tito Gomez, although Puerto Rican, chooses the Colombian style of Salsa over the Puerto Rican, and attributes most of his success to the Colombian composers behind the scenes.

No city in the world (EXCEPT FOR NY) developed such a cult to listening to and dancing salsa as Cali did. Back in the 80s and 90s you could easily find more salsa clubs in cali than in any Puerto Rican city. I can't give exact numbers about the night clubs, but I do have personal contacts in the salsa business, you have read my interviews with some of these artists G5. Luisito ayala of Puerto Rican power actually tells me many of his songs were written using Colombian style salsa. What country do you think made "Mi Carinito" into the smash hit that it became by playing it over and over in the radio?

Not to say that Puerto Rico has not given the world the most brilliant salseros around, but if you poke around a little more, you probably find that Colombia's contribution TO THE GENRE is not that negligible after all. You seem to be putting a magnifying glass on the negative aspects of Colombia while downplaying some of the positive contributions made by our artists.


What I am trying to say is.... if the girl goes to Cali, she might learn something about Salsa and be safe after all.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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caslug says on Feb 8, 2006, 14:52:

How would study about salsa in cali? Are there famous salsa masters(like kung fu master) in cali, where people travel far distances to learn from? Do you go to clubs and listen too(talk w/ the bands)? Most salsa clubs in Cali, use DJ, there are some that have house band, i notice the house band DO play salsa, but for the most part it's popular salsa songs(not unique to that band) that other bands in other cities play.

Admittly, my club areas was only in the north. I didnt venture to juanchita(too dangerous) or some divey salsa bar in some poor neighborhood(too dangergous). So if the orignal salsa spirits are in those areas, then maybe i missed it. But i doubt if a gringa is going to want to go those those places either.

Actually, the best salsa band/club i've exp in COl was in BOG, near or in chapinero. The band was very good and great engergy, lots of great people, it was in a pretty bad area, wouldnt walk around by myself there.

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Gomezman5 says on Feb 8, 2006, 16:28:

Colombiche..... I agree with you 100% about the 25 dollars for whacking a gringa. My point, as often is the case here, was taken out of context. I did not say that she was in danger of getting knocked off. I never said anything of a kind. My point was to show that a country where someone could get knocked off for 25 dollars, is a country indicative of rampant violence and the respect for life is pretty low. In other words, it is indicative of just hard up people are, and what they will do for so little amount of money. That being the case, and knowing just how rampant day to day street crime is, it is silly to tell a gringa, who would stand out like a sore thumb to study in a place of this nature. The risks FAR outweigh any benefit that can be derived from being there. That is true from an educational perspective as well from any other perspective that you think would make Cali a place worth visiting.

Salsa.....
The fact that many artists had their careers catapulted from being in Colombia has little to do with the overall scheme of things and genre of music. I think, you are putting the cart before the horse. Many of these people were very famous long before Cali was a mecca for Salsa. If you thing that Cali,or any part of Salsa had anything to do with the popularity of groups like Oscar de Leon,or Sonora Poncena, I am sorry to say that is simply not true. God...no way. These guys were performing back in the early 70's when there was not one salsa group of significance in existance.....at least not out of Cali. Which leads to my second point. Long before Salsa became popular in Cali, Salsa was popular on the coast, and even in Medellin before Salsa. Barranquilla, without question was the earliest mecca for Salsa. Do you think the likes of Fruko, and Joe Arroyo coincidently started on the coast? Geography was a large part. The entire Carribean basin was where Salsa in its rawest form took a hold. And yes I will agree with you that the capital of Salsa really is NY York. The word Salsa did not exist until the arrival of the Fania All Star gang of Artists back in the late 60's and 70's. When Arsenio Rodriguez arranged his music, it was not called Salsa. When Monguito of Cuba did the same, it was not called Salsa. The same is true of Pete El Conde Rodriguez. Then there were the likes of Raphy Leavitt, and speaking of Jewish contributions (and there were a few..who migrated from their Jazz ensembles) El Judio Maravilloso, Larry Harlow, (formerly Lawernce Ira Kahn). To this day, most of the people of Cali, never heard of any of the above artists that I just mentioned. They are long gone, but their contributions were never rivaled by any Colombian artist...not even remotely. At the time these guys performed. Barranquilleros were all to familiar with their music, Calenos were not. The music had not caught on there.

Essentially what I am saying is that Tito Gomez did more for Niche than Niche did for Tito Gomez. Primi Cruz sang in the Coros too. But the reality of the situation is that Primi Cruz really went nowhere after leaving Nich. And while Gomez had a few good CDs, the best being Agradacimiento, his career never took off they way he wanted it to either. I recognize that they have a special place in their heart for Colombia. Hell, they lived there, and they made good money singing with Niche and Jairo Vairela (another Colombian gone bad by the way) but I would not say that they made it as well as they did because they were in Colombia. They lucked out in that they hooked up with a talented group, and the musical genius of Vairela.

I'll stand on my contention that Colombia's contribution was very negligible...almost to the point it is not worth mentioning. They had to export their talent, because there was nobody in Colombia that could do the job. Trust me, if Jairo Varela could have found home grown talent, he would not have recruited people from Puerto Rico to fill the gaps.

"What I am trying to say is.... if the girl goes to Cali, she might learn something about Salsa and be safe after all."

I disagree completely. It is not worth the security risk, and she will definitely learn MUCH MORE about Salsa in Puerto Rico than she will in Colombia......you can't debate that fact for a moment.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 8, 2006, 16:29:

Bias Mr. H:

Isn't it kind of paradoxical that there would be such fixation for a single objective Truth in a mainly Protestan culture like the US's, where individual freedom is highly valued and people don't need priests to interpret the word of God to them? You would expect that more in a mainly Catholic culture, like Colombia, wouldn't you?

I have no problem with "single objective Truths," I'm just playing armchair anthropologist. But there seems to be an appropriate place for that: "The capital of Colombia is Bogotá," that is a single objective truth; "Bogotá is un/safe..." that's when it gets murky and opinion creeps in.

BTW, be careful: don't confuse "biasophobia" (my very own "truthiness") with "basofia." Very different.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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dwmte says on Feb 8, 2006, 16:55:

colombiche... it appears you are in the know on salsa...

some help please. i recently heard a song 'salsa con papa' for the first time and it was--to me-- the most incredible salsa piece i've ever heard. can you help me identify the group so i can get the cd?

thanks,

dw martin

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Gomezman5 says on Feb 8, 2006, 20:24:

DWMTE No such song.....I know a hell of a lot of salsa and I cannot think of one that resembles thzt title. How do you know for sure that you have the title correct?

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Monpirri says on Feb 8, 2006, 20:24:

Just like a language borrows words from other languages salsa has borrowed or learned from Cumbia and from Colombian Salsa, therefore Colombia contributions to the genre it is very evident in the music world. You can do a historical research on this topic and you'll find out the facts.
Yes,Gomezman5 your tone, ever since we have been having this conversation, has been kind of downplaying the positive contributions made by Colombian music artists in contrast to your favorite music. I said favorite because you said you have invested quite a bit in your music collection.
In fact, in one instance you stated that Joe Arroyo was not known by some people in one country and that Joe Arroyo did not have a successful concert in your city. I say, go to Florida for the III Vallenato Festival 2006, Saturday, February 19th – Bayfront Park, Downtown Miami.

I believe however that you are right when you said that in Barranquilla or "Barranquilla, without question was the earliest Mecca for Salsa." because I have a CD that manifests what you have said about Salsa in Barranquilla,and also I knew some Barranquilleros who were known for their great dancing in NJ. But, that is not the issue, the issue is that a PBH member wants to go to Cali to write a thesis and Cali today is the place to go for that thesis because famous salseros go there during Cali Festival, you may not dare to go there, but people in said industry as the Fania All Stars have been there, several musicians from this genre have relocated to Cali. And Cali has several groups today that are famous and not too famous, some are not known yet in US media for many reasons.
Other countries do not qualify today for her thesis. She has already done her work, she knows what she is doing!! Puerto Rico is experiencing a booming of Regetton and other music genres today! That’s the reason why she has selected Cali.

In regard to the safety issue, your fear of Cali, Colombia has made you myopic, you cannot see anymore from an independent or unbiased point view. Even if tomorrow the agency reports that the city is ok to travel you will still come back and say it is not.

I hope you can cast your vote for Joe Arroyo and consequently make him a bit more famous. www.univision.com/content/channel.jhtml?chid=9514&schid=9803
The song to vote is, “A mi Dios todo le debo�

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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Gomezman5 says on Feb 8, 2006, 21:19:

Monpirrii you are wrong....absolutely wrong ! Cumbia, did zero, nada, for the evolution of salsa. No relationship
what so ever...no way...no shape....no form. Salsa, in its most basic form is comes from the music known as music of the Son. Son combined with Montuno to create music known as Son Montuno. This basically consists of African Cuban ritmo. The Musica del Son latered branched into Guaracha, Guajira, and Gujuanco. These forms of music were the three predecesors to modern day salsa.

The above said, the real father of the modern day Salsa ritmo is the great Arsenio Rodriguez. He was by far and away, the man, that singulary, set the stage for modern day Salsa. This assetion that Colombian cumbia or (Colombian salsa.....which neve even existed in the 50s, 60s or 70s) had nothing to do with the evolution of modern day salsa. I don't know where you are learining such nonsense.

Listen, when Fruko and tus tesos, and Joe Arroyo (a student of Fruko) first started, their music was not even referred to as salsa, it was referred to as music tropical. Fruko had his own unique style that Arroyo continued.

Man, let me floor you dreamers a little more. The US,,,,New York, contributed, and had more famous Salseros than Colombia. Can you believe that? Where do you think Hermanos Lebron were born? And where did the careers of Willie Colon, and the late Hector Lavoe develop? Answer: New York. And the same for Bobby Valentin and Willie Rossario. Good Greif man. Go to any star that sells salsa and if you don't know who these guys are, you no nothing about salsa because everyone I mentioned above, still are having their CDs sold in stores where people will pay top dollar to hear some of the greatest salsa ever written. What did Colombia have that even remotely touches the greatness of these artists?? This is a no brainer.

One more thing, Colombiche talked about how she believed Colombia catipulted Sonora Poncena. That is comical. The single most influential force for that group was the former Fania All Star Larry Harlow. He was the arranger for over half of the songs made by Poncena. Larry Harlow was from where??? Try New York. It's funny. All you people under thirty who claim to know about salsa always tell me they don't know Harlow is, but when I mention a particular song, who almost everyone who has ever listened any salsa has heard of, they never know who wrote it. When I tell them it was Larry Harlow, they say "I did not know that." I have heard this over a dozen times. And no I will not mention the song.

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Rubiazo says on Feb 8, 2006, 21:24:

Ok first off Why the hell would she want to go to Puerto Rico? PR IS MORE FREAKING DANGEROUS THAN COLOMBIA! Look at the latest statistics. PR has had more than 4000 homicides per year lately, and there arent even 4 million people on the whole island!! I would consider Cali within my risk tolerance LONG before I would consider PR. And this is also based on personal experience. I think that even people who have roots there are nuts to go back!!

Also, Colombia definitely did have an influence on the salsa. That is not even worth debating. Live salsa is a very rare thing in almost any city in the world right now though. I have heard that Cali's scene has been decimated much like NY's has. :(

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platano says on Feb 8, 2006, 21:38:

G5... Your statement: "back in the early 70's when there was not one salsa group of significance in existance" depends on how you define "significance". In terms of good music there were Colombian groups and many were significant enough to play at the Feria de Cali to thousands of Caleños (who I think you sell short by saying they haven't heard of the people you mentioned).

But back to your statement: I consider these Colombian artists to be "of significance" and they played to the Cali public in the Feria: In 1972 Piper Pimienta (Cali); 1973 Fruko y Sus Tesos (Colombia); 1974 Formula 8 (Cali); 1978 Octava Dimensión (Cali); 1980 La Revolución (Cali); 1981 Integración 2,000 (Cali) and Integración Porteña (Buenaventura) and Raza Tropical (Cali) and Sonora Juventud (Cali); 1982 Bemtú (Cali) and Grupo Niche (Cali) and La Misma Gente (Cali)

I could go on but you can see that there were many Colombian salsa groups on the scene at the Feria before Grupo Niche made its appearance at the Feria in 1982.

I would say Caleños sure as hell knew who Larry Harlow is. The question is did New Yorkers know of the Colombian salsa groups? plátano

plátano

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Gomezman5 says on Feb 8, 2006, 21:39:

It sure is worth debating.... And if you read my threads above, I think I have proved it is worth debating. Rubi, your statement is as empty of an assetion as there can be. Start telling me where the Colombian influence came from. Start naming the groups the contribute to the evolution of salsa in the 50s, 60s, or 70s? For God Sakes, apart from Grupo Niche, Colombia contributed Borsht. The only artists of recognition worth mentioning were Fruko, and Joe Arroyo. Who were the other stars? Son de Azucar? (a group of overweight female calenas) , Guayacan? A group that got famous on ONE song...just one. (oiga Mire, vea) oh maybe Torrero too. Alfredo de la Fe? Interesting music but nothing outstanding. Grupo gale? A group of repeating instrumentals with next to no variaton makikng all their music sound the same. Or lastly, the modern day Sonora Matacera (AKA Aquemia)--now that is a real laugher. They took off with a bang, and then the local salsa store in Chicago could not give them away. He stuck them on his rack with the 99 cent CDs, and he still could not sell the music.

Look guys, if you are going to argue salsa, you are talking with the G5, and man, I have it all. Only the best

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platano says on Feb 8, 2006, 21:57:

Historical note on Grupo Niche... Grupo Niche broke up and didn't even play at the 1987 Feria de Cali. But several other Colombian groups did play, including Bemtú (Cali), Alvaro del Castillo (Cali), Formula 8 (Cali), Integración Porteña (Buenaventura), Cali Charanga (Cali), Caña de Azucar (Cali), Los de Caney (Cali); Los Farallones (Cali), Grupo Clase (Cali), Guayacán (Cali), Hermanos Ospino (Cali), La Identidad (Cali), La Ley (Cali), Manantial (Cali), La Misma Gente (Cali), Octava Dimensión (Cali), Piper Pimienta (Cali), Son de Euterpe (Cali), Sonora Caleña (Cali)

One way to measure things is by sales ("hits"). Another way to measure things is by the passion of the people and the amount of popular participation in the music. By the latter measurement I think Cali wins hands down over Puerto Rico.plátano

plátano

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Gomezman5 says on Feb 8, 2006, 21:57:

Well GringoD I'm not to sure how to take that?????? But since you claim "we all love ya" I'll take it as a compliment and put a big smile on my face :)

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utopiacowboy says on Feb 8, 2006, 22:12:

I was going to mention it but you beat me to it. I've been to Puerto Rico twice and been all over the island travelling with locals on their honeymoon and I'd rather take my chances in Colombia any day.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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miamimike says on Feb 8, 2006, 22:15:

Rubiazo, Not all of Puerto Rico is Dangerous Probably 90% of those Murders in PR occur in the Capital, San Juan, and even there,the trouble is confined to a few neighborhoods. The other 10% of the murders probably occur in Ponce and posibly Mayaguez. A person can pretty travel about PR between cities without fear of being sequestered off a Bus.I've traveled the Island by Bus, Car, in the Night, in the daytime, never remotely encountered a problem or felt threatened and I hit some pretty nasty areas, centro medico, Bayamon. I passed on La Perla below El Morro in SJ. That is trouble, day or Night! If things were that Bad in PR, I doubt you would see the Major Cruise Lines Calling in San Juan Daily as they do.

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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Gomezman5 says on Feb 8, 2006, 22:28:

Mike...you could not be more right I was going to post something along those lines. But I figured, what's the point? If people like Rubiazo want to make these absurd statements....good for them. And you are right, if things were that dangerous, the cruise boats would not be going there in earnest.

Not only do the cruise boats go there, but the vacation packages from all major tourist companies are still selling tourist packages all the time. And you are right, the murders are occuring in such a small part of the island, and that gives a false impression as to the degree of safety.

And you are right on another point. No miracle fishing in Puerto Rico (pescando milagroso) no guerillas, no paramilitares, no civil war. Rubiazo must have got addicted to something while he was over there because it's the essense of ridiculous to say that Colombia as a whole is safer than Puerto Rico.....it's not.

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Rubiazo says on Feb 8, 2006, 22:44:

??? hello, THE NATIONAL GUARD HAS BEEN CALLED IN AND ARE STILL THERE TO HELP MAINTAIN PUBLIC ORDER! The whole island is in a state of emergency, and has been for more than a year!

Not only did I PERSONALLY have problems there (on my own honeymoon) but statistics more than back me up. PR may not have as many kidnappings but they have a hell of a lot more homicides. AND just like in Colombia, the more rural the area is the more dangerous it is!! SJ is among the SAFEST parts of PR, depending on what part. But as a whole PR is the most dangerous place in the Western Hemisphere.

For the record, I wouldn't exactly consider Cali a good spot for a vacation right now either! But recommending the girl go to PR because it's safer? RIDICULOUS! Most of my Boricua friends up here wouldnt even back you up on that one G5!

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utopiacowboy says on Feb 8, 2006, 22:54:

I'm with Rubiazo on this one. Drugs and drug-related crime and gang violence are a major problem in PR.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Lionheart says on Feb 8, 2006, 23:26:

big smile we should all meet and I will create a new drink called the Colombian Peace Pipe.

Reading the flaring opposite opinions I found it difficult to follow the real basic question many new people ask. But I have a suggestion. In many countries with unstable cultures you encounter the same issues. I had the same adventures in Eastern Europe and almost didn't survive them on three occasions. The stories told about Bogota, Cali etc are just as real in Budapest, Pilsen, or any other country with a changing culture and developing a new global society.