For those who think the Paramilitaries made Colombia "safer".

kalder says on Jan 29, 2007, 08:17:

I agree with you cali373 I have no time for any communist and their cult of destruction and slavery. And I particularly loathe and despise the FARCnarcos. But I consider the Paramilitaries to be off of the moral spectrum. If there is a hell, it surely has a special place reserved just for them.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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gorgonabob says on Jan 29, 2007, 08:42:

of course colombia would be a great deal better off without all murder and misery that the paramilitaries bring.. but you cant help admire the way they started which was basically

the father of the brothers Castano was kidnapped by the FARC.. He was a relatively wealthy landowner and cattle rancher.. The guerillas asked the sons for money for his release. They paid. He was not released and the guerillas asked for more money. They paid and then the guerillas murdered the father. The sons took offense to this obviously and managed to find all the guerillas responsible for the crime and they killed the lot of them....

You got to give them credit for that. From there they organised all there friends and neigbouring landowners to protect there land and families against the guerilla..

Clearly its been all down hill since that day and two of those sons are now dead and ones in heading with a bounty on his head but i have to admire them for getting retribution for the death of there father..

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cali373 says on Jan 29, 2007, 09:40:

"Those poor peasants that were dissplaced were most likely FARC or ELN poor type folks." Yeah ok, because I am sure that these dirt poor peasants woke up one day and declared themselves FARC or ELN type. The article also does not minimize the violent illegal actions of guerillas,it was not about them it was about the AUC, yet I do understand that the AUC became powerful due to lack of a state authority in colombia. I remember reading about an interview with Mancuso and while he was being interviewed, the local cab-drivers were on line waiting to pay their contribution for AUC protection. Contribution my ass! Gee I wonder what would happen if they did not pay. In the US Before law enforcement became respected strong institution people and business relied on local gangs or pretty much groups who made their living on illegal activities. We have definitely progressed from those times. WHY do people that consider themselves so called conservatives support or claim Paramilitary action in Colombia to be a better alternative? I wholeheartedly disagree, and history backs me up on this. Society's that have developed strong, public-supported, law enforcement institutions have have enjoyed a better living. Colombian history laso has cases where peasants who owned land were killed off by Paramilitary structures back by the landowning class. This has happened since the independance and well into the 20 century, but that is too much history for people to read up on. It is just easier to read an article that grossly undermines the history that led to developement of guerilla or populist organizations in Colombia and then claim these groups just want to get rich of drug trafficking. Think about it, if that was the case then guerilla commanders could just become paramilitaries? Then they don't have to worry about the colombian military attacking them. We all know that some of these soldiers have changed between both guerilla or AUC just because they need employment. If I had no sense of ideology, I would choose the AUC, who wouldn't? I would get the support of landowners and get to live in a nice house instead of a malaria infested jungle. Rape and become rich off the drug trade with impunity and have the "law and order" president look the other way. And even if hand myself in, I get to keep most of my spoils from being paramilitary and the drug trade, only serve 7 years in room with cell phones, satelite tv, whores. Getting to my earlier point Colombians should concentrate on setting up and maintaining a strong public supported law enforcement infrastructure in the ENTIRE country! While that is VERY hard, just look at the alternative to not trying. Guerillas and paramilitaries and many dead innocent people. I have to applaud Uribe for organizing protection between cities that has allowed Colombians to travel more often with increased safety, however this only looks good on paper because it is usually along the major cities, trade routes, and tourist areas. But I do think it is better. As far as verbally attacking Uribe. If you do want to be critized, don't become a politician as it is impossible to please everyone or even 50% of everyone.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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cali373 says on Jan 29, 2007, 09:44:

Don, I was wondering what if the subject line read: "For those who think the guerillas are freedom fighters". and then posted an article about guerillas violence. Would you have replied similarely? Your correct, the hyprocracy is uncanny.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jan 29, 2007, 10:08:

One POV I have a friend whose father is a fairly wealthy landowner in Colombia. He's lost a ranch to the FARC and he's also been forced to pay a lot of "protection" to the AUC. He doesn't like either group but when asked to describe the difference he said, "The AUC are people you can reason and negotiate with when there's a problem. No so with the FARC."

Clearly, that's based on his own personal bias, and there are a lot of butchered people who didn't get a chance to "reason with" the AUC, but it explains why one group is much more accepted by the wealthy classes.

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juancegomez says on Jan 29, 2007, 11:15:

cali373 The article could be quite a bit better, even if it does present a partial overview of the situation. I happen to find some common ground between my opinion and DG's on this particular issue.

For most of us, myself included, the paramilitaries have acted like barbarians and have not made the country, as a whole, safer. Nationally, I wouldn't argue that they have made Colombia "safer".

But it's also clear that in some circumstances, such barbarism has made some people (mostly the richer ones, granted, but also plenty of others) safer on a *local* level.

That doesn't intend to glorify paramilitary violence because, also at that level, many others have also suffered and died at their hands. Innocent and non-innocent alike. The article addresses (not in the best possible manner) one of the horribly reactionary trends that paramilitaries have promoted and that the government has failed to properly deal with. Greater land concentration is nothing to celebrate.

The other side of the coin is that even those "fellows" from FARC and ELN have done some "good" (and bad, of course) things on a local level for *some* people too (mostly the poorer ones, but probably also for others that don't fit the stereotype). Even if they certainly haven't made Colombia a better place either. Many of their actions and their consequences cannot be celebrated either.

All of this just shows that it's not entirely a black-and-white affair, really.

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cali373 says on Jan 29, 2007, 11:25:

FARC wrong doings, No it was FARC wrong doings were not mentioned in this particular article , but we all know it is mentioned much more in most article about the civil conflict.

"The AUC is not the problem here in Colombia". I must say that is a whole new level of ignorance that I will not even waist my time trying to figure out what logic when into that statement. Since you are trying to enlighten us, why don't you mention that paramilitary type groups have been organized by the land owning elite even before guerillas came into existence in Colombia. Come on, open that can of worms. Out of all good and bad discussions on PBH no-one ever discusses how paramilitary type of activities and political seclusion of the massses eventually led to the formation of guerilla type factions. No let's not have an intelligent discussion about that, because it will require extensive reading of books because that type of knowledge is not distributed in the biased newpaper articles of Colombia and the U.S. which do not mention the true factors of the civil conflict. To me it's only human nature that man rebels against unfair and socially immoral system of government. Please allow me tell you about a movement of people who were politically secluded and rebeled (insurgency) against the British crown. These were the Americans or Colonials of the North American british colonies, Eventually they won their freedom and 200+ years later we have the great country we call the United States.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jan 29, 2007, 11:27:

FWIW I read the article and didn't think it was particularly "one sided". It was just an article about a single subject, the usurpation of private lands by the Paracos through personal intimidation.

Since I don't think the actions of one side particularly validate or justify the actions of another, I, personally, don't believe that every article about the FARC needs to mention the crimes of the AUC nor every mention of the AUC's crimes needs to go into the similar misdeeds of the guerillas. Hiding behind the excuses of other's misdeeds is just another form of impunity.

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juancegomez says on Jan 29, 2007, 11:31:

Mr. Hollywood I'd agree, but I still think that the issues of displacement, paramilitary operations and land concentration could be handled better, even without necessarily having to talk about FARC.

Although, for the sake of argument, guerrilla activity is also to blame for more than a few instances of people being forced to sell their land at ridiculously cheap prices (and ironically, narcos and paramilitaries benefited from that process).

colombiamike's story shows that the AUC is also quite capable of that, evidently, even if not for identical purposes.

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utopiacowboy says on Jan 29, 2007, 21:14:

Cordoba, along with Sucre, is an AUC stronghold and the safest place in Colombia. Of course you better keep your mouth shut if you know what's good for you.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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tejasmarcos says on Jan 29, 2007, 21:21:

i recently bought the book "Colombia, Fragmented Land, Divided Society". it came with a cd called "Plan Colombia - cashing in on the drug war failure". to say the least it is a real eye opener into the influence of the u.s. government on colombia. i would recommend anybody interested in the truth about americas involvement to go rent or buy it.

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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cali373 says on Jan 30, 2007, 07:51:

"Get mad at the politicians that rob from the taxpayer here to give back to the elite rich. Get mad at them for creating a habitat for these people to operate by not providing basic security, equal opportunity for it's populous, they are the ones to blame and not me or the AUC, FARC or ELN, etc."

Well Don, I must say it was not my intention to poke at you but you later post definately has a different tone than the first three and I must admit I am inclined to agree with you. Perhaps I misunderstood in thinking you were picking a side, but it seemed you were leaning towards one.
And actually thanks for actually opening up the gates of discussion, it is true, if you did not challenge this , nobody would have and that would not produce productive dialogue.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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cali373 says on Jan 30, 2007, 08:00:

"safest place in Colombia. Of course you better keep your mouth shut if you know what's good for you." Now is that REALLY what a contemporary state should consider safe? Because it may be construed as "safe" in colombia does not make it Ok just because it is Colombia. We must always be working on progress. We should be saying that even though some are safe (and that is very few) the current security situation in colombian society is not working, What should we do, then what can we do now and how to work to get the point of where we should be.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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cali373 says on Jan 30, 2007, 08:09:

Teja, I saw that documentary on dvd and you are correct, I recommend many who care even just a little about Colonbia to check it out, I rented it from netflix. And it is a true documentary not the like michael moore type.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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tejasmarcos says on Jan 30, 2007, 09:54:

here is another eye opener http://www.freedomtofascism.com/

* it had a free google version a few weeks ago, but they may have changed that format. once again, this is a peek into what much of the govnt is all about.

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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juancegomez says on Jan 30, 2007, 12:46:

Well... Getting mad at the politicians is one thing, and that's fine by me, but indicating that getting mad at the FARC, ELN and AUC isn't just as warranted, or more so in a few cases, is another. They aren't exactly pawns with no autonomy or respective political characteristics, you know. They're already a part of the problem, and a factor that cannot be ignored, even if they might not be the origin of it all.

As for the "safety" of areas under paramilitary influence/control...it's still relative. That "safety" doesn't extend to the violence that they inflict not only against people suspected of being guerrillas but even themselves or their own business partners/rivals from time to time, even after all the "subversives" aren't a concern. Nor to their participating in other misc. activities that lead to more crime and illegality (since when does that promote safety?).

In any event, warlordism isn't something worth praising in my book, nor is living in fear of mafia retaliation something that I'd consider truly "safe". One can understand that for some people in the area that might be proportionally better than the alternative, yes, but the overall result isn't that pretty when you look at the entire picture, to say the least.

tejasmarcos: I find the book to be much more interesting than the documentary. While well-intended, the documentary simplifies a few things far too much. So forgive me if I cannot join in the praising even if, to say the least, I'm not a fan of the current Plan Colombia nor of Drug Prohibition in general. To put it another way, it contains some truths, but also some questionable parts that I am not in agreement with. It's a decent documentary, but I wouldn't be uncritical about it.

As for freedomtofascism, I haven't seen it and only browsed through their website, but the title doesn't sound like it's exactly the most profound analysis available. Not to say that there aren't real concerns in it about the direction that America is in it, but they probably can be expressed in better ways.

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cali373 says on Jan 31, 2007, 12:35:

I did not even now there was a book about it. I will check it out.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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law254 says on Feb 5, 2007, 21:21:

communists are pretty bad for a country, but paramilitaries are bad also and function more like mafia, there's no way in hell anything is safe with them around. They aren't trying to protect anyone from che's lunatics, they're trying to gain power and get rich like everyone else at the cost of freedom, thus FARC, ELN, paramilitary, they're all out there screwing everything up.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 10, 2007, 08:41:

Semana reports on another murder http://www.semana.com/wf_InfoArticulo.aspx?idArt=100897

Unfortunately, it's happening as expected: Those asking for truth/reparation are getting gunned down.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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juancegomez says on Feb 12, 2007, 07:41:

Sr Tertius It may sound harsh, but the sad truth is that it would have been more surprising if they weren't being gunned down at all, giving that's been the historical trend for far too much time.

It would be beyond wishful thinking to expect anything else from these criminals and their associates.

Yet that's precisely why the victims shouldn't give up. They should keep up the fight to defend their rights, both through making demands for reparations/truth, demanding as much protection as possible, and by cooperating with the authorities in prosecuting both the killers at large and the ones that are already under custody.

If they give up and run away, the criminals who are trying to shut them up are the only ones that will be smiling when the dust settles. It may be painful to continue, and it's much easier to talk about it than to make it happen, but if they don't, then impunity is only going to multiply once again.

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poco says on Feb 17, 2007, 09:51:

Enjoy it while it lasts They should keep up the fight to defend their rights, both through making demands for reparations/truth, demanding as much protection as possible, and by cooperating with the authorities in prosecuting both the killers at large and the ones that are already under custody.

A thoughtful statement. Standing up for "what is right" depends on where you stand. One mans freedom fighter is another mans Terrorist. People living in countries with a functional central government having complete control of their territory and LAWS have this luxury. Colombia lacks control,, I think they have plenty of laws.

Do this in Colombia and be sure to keep your windows shuttered because if you don't a grenade tossed into your living room will ruin your day. It also has a quieting effect on your neighbors.

I'll take the easy route and just enjoy it while it lasts. When it ends, I'll go elsewhere in my PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS,, I may not find happiness but that right is guaranteed for U.S. citizens and I'd assume it applies to the over 2 million Colombians living in the United States. The tendency in South America and to a large degree Colombia is to become Socialist Nations. In the event Colombia goes the route of Venezuela then the Constitution should READ:

Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Mediocrity for the proletariat.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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juancegomez says on Feb 19, 2007, 07:55:

poco If nobody fights then nothing will change. If we give up because the problem is too difficult, if the risk is too great, then we might as well not bother talking about it either. That sounds a bit harsh, but if we take it to the extreme, it's applicable enough.

That may be enough for us to do as individuals, but sooner or later things will have to change. And they will. It's just a question of whether we want change to happen now or later. Whether we will see it or if we won't. It doesn't depend only on us, of course, but individuals can make small differences, and many small differences over a long time can and do matter. Even if they might not always have the intended consequences.

Both of us can still "enjoy (the good) while it lasts". I'm not going to judge you about that aspect because I also want to "pursue happiness" as much as I can, humanly speaking. But if we can do something else, even if only symbolically, then by all means, I think we should try. I'm not going to change Colombia but if I can push a pebble in the right direction, I'll be content with that. Even if I die tomorrow (you never know).

Finally, I wouldn't use the word "socialist" so freely. Left-leaning is probably a better term, since it preserves the diversity of the different countries and situations involved. Some will probably have better "models" than others, if you want to put it that way.

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