Five months in Armenia (and counting)

rocinante says on Jan 13, 2006, 17:23:

cough, cough Caulie, sounds like you hit the jackpot. Last week I met a girl here in the states who just got here from Armenia. I need to talk to her more but we've both been busy. How do these siliconas pay for the surgery if they don't have jobs?

"The biggest challenge is never confusing your status as an American with anything but the fact that every country that is economically challenged has women that are looking for the bigger, better deal" - I guess what you're trying to say is that all the extra attention one may receive may really be attributed to women who are looking for the bigger, better deal?

I have not spent as much time there as you but I'm not meeting anyone that is dying to get our of Co - probably because I'm not hanging out in the gringo bars. Actually I'm not into hanging out with the gringos that much.

Medellín (and I hear Bog as well) is pretty bad emission wise. That's the one thing I'm going to miss - clean air - Dr Pepper is not great loss on my end. Gotta love the weather, though.

Please tell me more about your internet access, if you have a chance.

I went to the Juanes show in Med on 10/16 - what a show, what a crowd, what rain!

Thanks for sharing your experience. It's greatly appreciated.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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caslug says on Jan 13, 2006, 17:29:

Nice report.. Pls cont. it, I really didn't realize that Periera had LOTS of silicons, i knew MED did.

As for how can girls afford it, family, boyfriend, or girls themselves save up.

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bufalo says on Jan 13, 2006, 17:47:

How do they afford it, simple, a boyfriend in the "business", being the OTHER, and prepago or a combo of the three are are the most popular, some just have rich husbands. Like what you said about choosing CEO or Miss Universe. I have found the women in Armenia to be the most.... too much spanish latetly, can`t think of hte word "presumida", of all the places I´ve been in Colombia. The gym I go to there is all silicone. I was talking to a friend about a short film I might do in Salento/Armenia while at the gym. One chick overheard me and for a while I had a ton of "actesses" come up to me. the same ones who would never say boo to me before.
There was a report in a paper a while ago saying how rampant prepago is, the top cities were - Cali, bogota, medellin and .... Calarca. Calarca is a twinkie town compared to the other three, but it ranks up there nationally.
I was going to write you and see how things were going, but so far so good I guess.

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

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caslug says on Jan 13, 2006, 17:59:

article on which city has prepago?-THAT's FUNNY.. is the article online?

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miamimike says on Jan 13, 2006, 22:13:

Tell me what Similiarly Sized Cities in The USA......... where this has happened to you: "I really like Colombia, and I say that after having been robbed and having another friend robbed (gunpoint and the tip of a machette). I feel safer here than in Russia or many larger US cities." Wow, in my hometown
in Penna(300,000 population), I have to say, I was never robbed nor were any of my friends held-up at Gunpoint or at the tip of a Machete. In Miami, well thats something else as it is the Largest Poorest City in the USA(Source: USA Today Poll)and anyplace you have that kind of poverty, you will have crime. But then again, Miami is really a City detached from the rest of the USA-its that Unique and different! Yes, we have crime here but no sequestering except in rare cases!

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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caulfield2 says on Jan 14, 2006, 06:37:

It is always dangerous to generalize, but the women I have met from outside the bigger cities tend to be less independent and more reliant upon their families, less auto-suficiente I think is the term. A lot of this has to do with education and lack of decent-paying work opportunities.

As far as Internet access goes, it is actually okay in the cafes and universities, because they have higher speed lines. I guess I would compare it to a slighly slower version of SBC-Yahoo, but nowhere close to T1 speed or even RoadRunner. I thought about bringing a laptop, and high speed access is possible in my school (wireless), but I dislike dragging my computer everywhere with me.

As for home internet access, muy lento. It is something like 97-98 in the US with dial-up, although the cable company (EPM) has supposedly been promising faster access for five years now. I know they called my friend and offered this service, but for something like $150 mil per month, which is very high in Colombia, even for technology.

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caulfield2 says on Jan 14, 2006, 06:49:

You are right...breast implants are somewhere in the vicinity of $2,000 to $2,500, about 60-70% of what you would pay in the US for the same surgery.

I really thought I had been transpoted to LA when I arrived. There are some women that really go overboard, women that are muy flaca but get D sized implants that simply do not look natural.

As far as Pereira goes, lots of discotecas there...the most well-known is Mango Binche (the Ripe Apple or Green Apple I think)...if you cross the viaduct and then turn left, there is a huge strip of them along this industrial road that are very similar. I cannot remember their names off the top of my head...they are a little more formal than the Armenia discotecas, you even have to take off your hat, lol.

As for Mango Biche, there are plenty of pictures on-line. I think there is even a website. Basically, everything goes. There are dancers on about three stages, probably 90% are siliconas. The times I have been there, they had these cheesy beauty competitions, where they paraded about 15-20 girls on stage through evening wear, swimsuits, lingerie and the last change was, well, I do not know how to describe it. Aguardientes is about $70 mil per bottle, so it is one of the more expensive places to drink I have been to. However, there is no substitute for seeing dancing Colombian midgets and all sorts of other oddities. The only thing that gets annoying is they keep ringing this firehouse bell over and over again, and at approximately 400 am, I was ready to kill the ringer. Another discoteca I really like in Pereira is called Mint, it is closer to the new mall which is called Ciudad Victoria.

I really love movies, and I am lucky to have a CineColombia in Armenia (as well as Ciudad Victoria in Pereira). In addition, a lot of American movies come out bootleg on the streets before they reach the theaters. You just have to be careful, I ended up trying to watch The Transporter 2 and couldnt get it to play in any other language than French. However, some movies, like King Kong, Harry Potter or the Legend of Zorro, come out the weekend after debuting in the US. Then there are the movies like Wedding Crashers that only last one week because the humor does not translate...OTOH, a 3D movie called Shark Boy and Lava Girl was in the theatres for seemingly months after lasting only a couple of weeks in the US. Charlie and the Chocolate Factory was also a huge success down here.

Along with plastic surgery, the biggest trend I have observed is the women with braces...women from 20-50 all have them, and they are very cheap here compared to the US. In fact, if you have a Colombian g-f, the first thing she might ask you for is braces or teeth whitening or possibly a bikini hair removal before she goes for the higher ticket items. I met my ex (Luz Marina) the other day and she told me she was saving for braces, which didnt make any sense to me, as she should have been saving for university, as she is 24 and lives at home with her tia.

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caulfield2 says on Jan 14, 2006, 06:56:

Yeah, I am actually going to Calarca today, lol. Although not planning on hiring anyone! Salento last weekend (for the 164th birthday celebration) was crazy. Ive never seen so many obviously underage girls publicly drunk in one place in my lifetime, most of them wearing one-half or one-fourth what they should have been for their age.

Of course, there are lots of Colombian women that wear tight, tight jeans that should not be...that is something I cannot figure out, how it looks attractive when your love handles are sticking out? Then there are the women who wear white blouses that are see through with white or black bras underneath....and white pants in general are very popular, which you do not see much of in the US. The smart ones do not wear any underwear at all with these getups.

As far as your film goes, it will definitely turn out slightly different than La Sierra I think. Since I have been here, there was one assassination right outside of my apartment...a sicario took out an abogado who was supposedly involved in corruption, narco-trafficking, etc. That was kind of strange, but at least I did not witness it personally. And a woman that teaches dance in my school was run over by a huge truck after she slid off her moto and killed while racing to get to school.

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caulfield2 says on Jan 14, 2006, 07:10:

I went to a bar in an area of town I should not have been, at night, by myself. I should have known better. It is actually quite an elaborate gang...the girl was not pre-pago, she was simply a criminal. She claimed to be from Bogota and asked if I wanted to take a walk with her. Actually, I think the bartender drugged my drink, as he poured it while we were leaving into a plastic cup. Then she called a couple of people from her taxi and this guy showed up walking along the street at about 2 AM and insisted I buy him a drink and that he needed $2-3 mil for the bus to Circasia or something like that. I was freaking out a little bit, but I still could have gotten out of the situation....however, I brought her home with me, lay down on the bed and that is the last I remember. The portero says she was in my apartment for 2 1-2 hours, but she only took $95 mil, my credit and bank cards (cancelled, of course) and my cheap cell phone. I woke up the next day at 430 pm after having been unconscious for most of the day. Somehow, I had managed to call a friend and explain what happened before passing out again. I think I had to pay $200 mil for all my hospital tests, but all the screens came up negative. And supposedly there is a magic dust that someone can blow into your face.

The police told me this group or band had actually picked up a guy (through a guy pretending to be gay hitting on another guy), taken him to a motel and then stole his truck. Two others were still in hospitals because the drugs they used were so strong the victims basically flipped out and were still in the psych ward. My girl actually left my cedula and American drivers license and put it back into the wallet of my billfold which was lying on the nightstand, lol.

My friend was robbed by an interesting tactic...the group of men pretended to be inquiring about an apartment for rent in the building. There were four of them. The portero let them in and then bound and gagged the portero in the bano. I think they really had taken the time to specifically target one or two apartments where the people were known to be out of town. There are also two gringos-as living there, it is a Strato 5 plus type of place.

Many think the portero was part of the conspiracy, but it is impossible to prove. After robbing one apartment, my friend heard a lot of strange noises and opened her door. Big mistake. They stormed in with guns and machetes, took her laptop and digital camera, and demanded to know where she kept her money. Like many gringas, she has money in her apartment in dollars and pesos...and so she lost almost $500. They hit her across the cheek and had her convinced they were going to kill her if she didnt give them all her money. She thought of not telling she had it, but she was worried they would search for it and find it eventually, then kill her for lying. So she gave them everything she had. This same tactic (of prentending to be looking into renting or buying real estate) apparently has been utilized a number of times.

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caulfield2 says on Jan 14, 2006, 09:05:

General impressions of Colombia...

The people here are friendlier and more family-oriented than people in the US. Of course, part of this is a product of economic circumstances...tios, tias, abuelas, primo-as, all living together in one house because they cannot earn enough money to live separately. And actually, the US and the northern European countries are the rarity...most children live with their parents until marriage around the world. My friend met a guy in Italy that still lived with his parents in Italy and he was nearly 40, lol.

The country is really struggling to define itself...is it a country of tourism? To me, there is a lot of consumption going on, but not enough production. Sure, Colombia produces coffee and bananas and has more flora and fauna than any country in the world with the exception of Brazil...but the prices for cars and anything technology-related are sky-high because everything must be imported (well, I won´t get into the Willys jeep). In Colombia, a car you buy today for $20 million could easily be sold in two years for $25 million if you keep it in really good condition. Anything electronic...computers, televisions, stereos, videogames...is more expensive here. Colombia also has a disadvantage, in comparison with, say, India, in that it doesn´t have an English speaking workforce and it cannot undercut the Asian countries in per hour labor costs.

Flying on Avianca or Aerorepublica is not as cheap as I thought it would be...Colombia is not a middle class country, there are ultra-poor (maybe 30-40% of the population) and ultra rich (Strato 5-6) who can afford to have their own transportation and fly to Bogota, Cali or Medellin instead of driving. Because there is a limited supply of travellers in Colombia that can afford to fly, the market is relatively inelastic and there is not enough competition.

Another example is the census (censado). Here, you have to take an entire day off from work to wait around for a guy or girl to ask 10-15 minutes worth of questions. In the US, they work around your schedule to do it...I can´t tell you how much a 2-3 week period with 5-10% of your employees missing everyday can impact the productivity of a school or empresa.

Colombia can be very frustrating at times. Almost nobody is on time, with the exception of the Juanes concert, lol. Of course, there, they oversold preferential, so you had twice as many people who had paid for this seating level than actual seats available!

DAS...I have never seen a place that does fingerprinting that does not give you a bathroom to wash your hands...instead, you have to use about 50 pieces of wax paper that still dont do the job. Colombia definitely needs to have more of a customer service orientation....for instance, to pay my energy bill (they cancelled it because I was in the US and hadnt paid the bill), you have to go to one line, then they send you to another place where you wait in line for about an hour (the entire office takes off for lunch instead of staggering the lunch breaks)...then you go back with your receipt to pay and they try to send you back to the other office around the corner unless you throw a fit in bad Spanish, lol.

Prostitutes...everywhere, but I noticed this especially in Cartagena and Pereira. I´m sure they are readily available in Medellin, Bogota, wherever there is disposable income. I will have to wait and comment on Calarca, lol...my friend is there now doing a survey for Bavaria Brewing and she said that the marketplace is full of them, although they are really rough looking! You can have (if you so desire) any woman in Cartagena for $50 mil per hour and something like $10-15 mil for a motel (NOT hotel) room. Motels are only for sex in Colombia, I learned that quickly enough.

Other random words and phrases I quickly picked up...

amigo con and sin derechos
pegale
quindio papa
boy

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caslug says on Jan 14, 2006, 10:49:

great observation..very objective and concise.. BTW, in MED i think you can get implants for $1200-1500, now in the states i've seen them advertise for $1500-2000. So the price difference is not as huge between states & col. Beats me why people would go to COL to get cheap implants! LOL!

For a small town, you and your friends exp LOTS of unfortunate incident for only living 5 mos. HOwever, i think going late at night to a bad part of town for a drink is unwise. LOL!

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caulfield2 says on Jan 14, 2006, 10:54:

Yeah, I have not been keeping up with it at all.

I assumed implants in the US were somewhere around $3-4,000.

But that is interesting. My g-f from Russia is coming down for 3 months this summer and we have spoken about it quite a bit...I have mixed feelings about the whole issue. She does not want to be a C or D, just a small or regular B, lol.

I am probably the only guy here who has a Russian fiance in the US and am living in Colombia...

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tomtom33 says on Jan 14, 2006, 12:14:

50K per hour for any woman in Cartagena? You have to go to La Dolce Vita and explain that to the girls. Unfortunately, there are some that I couldn't get for any price.

Of course I'm old, fat, ugly and a loser.

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rocinante says on Jan 14, 2006, 12:18:

tomtom33 There are some you couldn't get for any price? Those must have been the paisas.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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tomtom33 says on Jan 14, 2006, 12:24:

Those Paisas are hot. I am going to MDE next week for a couple of weeks to do some research.

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caulfield2 says on Jan 14, 2006, 14:02:

Yeah, that was the place my friend took me to in Bocagrande. In fact, every girl that came up to me and started talking about money quoted that rate...although there were a couple that wanted $200 mil (as a lesbian menage a trois, lol). The girl looked like Sofia Vergara, but too much silicone.

I am here in Calarca, supposedly the #4 site for prostitution in Colombia (about 10 minutes east of Armenia by bus or taxi). Believe, this is the lower end of the scale...my friend (female) took me to a couple of bars that are fronts for brothels and about 10 women came out of the shadows quoting rates like $5 or $10 mil. I think it's probably the seediest place I have ever seen. There are lots of farmers and Strato 1 and 2 people that live here. The hotel she is staying at is one of the nicest in town and something like $40 mil.

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caulfield2 says on Jan 14, 2006, 14:10:

I love Medellin. Make sure to go to the Botero Museum...take the metro-cable and the train too, just for fun. It's truly beautiful in early December when they have the festival of lights and lanterns (I think it's the 7th or 8th) and seemingly the entire city is lit up for Christmas.

Medellin has about the perfect climate, the highest per capita concentration of universities...it's the center of Colombian fashion and style.

Of course, OTOH, if you are looking for a woman, it's much harder to get one of the best girls to leave a city like Medellin for an uncertain life in the US, because her lifestyle is comparable if not better than it would be if she emigrated, as she would probably have to take university classes for two years, perhaps learn English, leave her family and friends and be subjected to the incessant lumping together of all Hispanics into the US into one broad category...of course, many Colombians are just as upset to be called Mexican as they are to hear about Pablo Escobar, Mr. and Mrs. Smith, FARC, Che Guevara, guerrilas, Shakira, Edgar Renteria, etc.

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rocinante says on Jan 14, 2006, 14:34:

home of nacional "OTOH, if you are looking for a woman, it's much harder to get one of the best girls to leave a city like Medellin for an uncertain life in the US, because her lifestyle is comparable if not better than it would be if she emigrated" - caufield2

I have yet to see anyone doing the web/agency wife relocation program getting the under 30, childless paisa from any strada in Medellin. There might be one guy.... But it just hardly ever happens. Usually Colombian women that do put themselves on the gringo block do so reluctantly - because they a have a few kids, getting up there in age, things are getting rough, gringo will send money back home to her family after the relocation - or they are looking for the steady payment while going through the process but bail at the last minute, or they grin and bear it. Yes many are also genuinely happy to have a life of stability after relocating.

My personal impression is that a young lady wanting to leave Colombia for a foreign life, hardly ever seeing her family, foreign language and bad weather - well something is up for that to be a 'choice'. Same goes for the guy as both parties have to endure an agonizing and time consuming process – and that’s before they are even together (which could be a second agonizing process). I cannot tell you how much this whole mail order/web bride makes me think. I never knew it existed until I came to this site and for me it’s an endless source of fascination.

But then you hear about the green card, gasolinera types that are young, have $$$ and are dying to get out of Colombia - so who knows – maybe they saw too many US TV shows where everyone is a jet setter. I’m glad to say I’ve never met this type but they say they exist.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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tomtom33 says on Jan 14, 2006, 17:20:

MDE I'll be staying about two blocks from the Botero Museum. This is about my sixth trip to MDE. I love the Metro. I think I just spent my last Christmas in the States. Next year Dec. 15 to Jan 15 in MDE.

Fortunately I don't have to worry about leaving the country. I live in Cartagena. But I do have a Paisa novia who doesn't like CTG. She doesn't much like me playing with grillas, either.

I've also been to Armenia and Coffee Park. I really enjoyed all of coffee valley, Pereira, and Manizales. But I'm more of a bigger city guy.

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bufalo says on Jan 15, 2006, 07:39:

that was your friends that were robbed in their apartment! Iheard about that, since then I had to go downstairs every time we order a pizza because the doorman wont let anyone in.

When I lived in Ny I knew tons of young paisas that left home to start something new, most said they had no kids back home, but a good number were lying.

bras and see through blouses, how come only the FUGLY ones wear them. I had pictures of my wedding that I threww out because some women were dressed like that.

Hope your fiancee doesn`t see your post about that girl in your apartment (that robbed you).

I thought I was the only gringo at CineClub, allthough I haven`t been there much lately. did you go tot he film and video festival? what a joke. most of the stuff was just rented DVD´s. One night, they didn`t review a submision which turned out not to be working, so they found some other movie, didn`t work either, so an hour into it, they showed some french film, really good. "La sombra del caminador" a colombian film shot in Bogotá, was really good. They had several cancellations that they never announced as well. The people only seemedto care about meeting Robinson Diaz the last day. I didn´t bother.

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

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bufalo says on Jan 15, 2006, 07:41:

Hold on a sec...

I remember your post before you went and you said something about not caring much for partying and drinking and going out with the women and all that stuff. Here you seem to be covering it quite a bit, I guess the colombian bug bit you.

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

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bufalo says on Jan 15, 2006, 07:54:

La sierra, I'd never do a film like that. what a sad display of stupid people, I couldn`t take advantage of people that ignorant. I especially didn`t like it after being in several places where adults were letting their children from infants up to about 14, watch it. How stupid can these people be. Some were school teachers. My wife announced that all the kids should go in the other rooma and play. The kids looked at here like "Oh, come on" like kids do. the idiotic parents (teacher, businesman and several people who openly thank god 100 times a day) looked at her like she was being a pain inthe ass. In the end noone budged.
I put a post here asking about El Cartucho because a german guy in mexico wanted me to fim gaimines there with him. I finally said no. The short I hopefully will do is giong to be way different than that piece of shit.

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

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utopiacowboy says on Jan 15, 2006, 08:06:

I laughed when I read "But then you hear about the green card, gasolinera types that are young, have $$$ and are dying to get out of Colombia - so who knows – maybe they saw too many US TV shows where everyone is a jet setter. I’m glad to say I’ve never met this type but they say they exist." My oldest stepson, if he was a chick, would be one of these. Even in Colombia the guy was crazy about American rock music and fascinated with American culture. I told him before he left Colombia that he was going to think he had died and gone to heaven. Sure enough, I was right. He was the fastest to pick up English and he loves living here. If he never set foot in Colombia the rest of his life, he'd be quite content.

Geez, Rocinante, every thread you're talking about the desperate women who are putting themselves on the auction block. I don't think a lot of them would see it that way. How is it any different from internet dating in the US? A coworker found his current girlfriend on eharmony (he had been sketical about my own internet success but now he's a believer). Was she on the auction block? When I had my profile on amigos, was I on the auction block? To me the internet is simply a means to meet people that before you never would have had the opportunity to meet.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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caulfield2 says on Jan 15, 2006, 14:57:

Yeah, Buffalo, you are right. I guess that I have really just started to rediscover that part of myself. I was so dedicated to helping another person (co-dependent I guess they would say) that I lost track of who I was...

Now, I am somewhere in the middle. Went to the Botanical Gardens near Calarca today, the festivals last weekend in Salento, horseback riding...I almost paid $50 mil to go hang-gliding off that mountain east of Armenia.

The festival and family lifestyle of Colombia tends to get in your blood a little...it is just a much more relaxed pace of life, and spending time with family and friends is more important than spending every instant trying to get ahead. Of course, I get frustrated with people who just seem to accept their condition in life and feel they have no hopes of upward advancement.

In Calarca, I met a couple of young girls who claimed to be 17 but really looked like they were 13 or 14 selling themselves. I also met a girl (Paola, I think I know 10 women with that name now) who worked from 7 am to 9 pm in a factory manufacturing pants. She said she made $2 mil per hour...which equals out to about $140 mil a week, somewhere in the vicinity of $60-65 dollars per week for 70 hours of work. Just crazy. And I think she considers herself somewhat fortunate.

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caulfield2 says on Jan 15, 2006, 15:04:

Maybe all those extensive surveys from sites like eharmony and match.com are worth it, lol. Instead, most men just charge out there and fall in love (physically) with the first woman (usually 18-24) who gives them the time of day.

I know everyone is susceptible to this to some extent. Maybe in the future there will be an ID tag we could all wear that has your IQ, graduate degrees attained or SAT score and we could save ourselves a lot of time and trouble. Just kidding...although I wonder if many men who what they are getting into.

Sometimes the savior mentality takes over...if only this girl had access to English lessons, university classes, modelling classes, teeth whitening, driving classes, braces, liposuction, implants...well, then she would be perfect, lol. Not to mention the fact that we can get her a subscription for the NY Times, Wall Street Journal and ESPN, The Magazine and she will assiduously read all of them and become an intellectual equal and partner in, say, 6 months. Ready to bring home to mom and dad and make all of our friends jealous when their 30-something wife has had 2-3 kids and is no longer a Victorias Secret supermodel.

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caulfield2 says on Jan 15, 2006, 15:14:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/493887.stm

I discovered one other thing today...I drove by the prison in Calarca today that houses Luis Garavito. This guy killed 275 kids and they are supposedly paroling him in 10 years. That just blew my mind. I have never been a big believer in the death penalty, but I would make an exception. Supposedly, he has to be housed separately from the other inmates who would all love to kill him if they had the opportunity.

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jalf12 says on Jan 15, 2006, 18:03:

Off With His Head!! Without Hesitation!

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poco says on Jan 15, 2006, 18:35:

Russia,, probably yes,,, I really like Colombia, and I say that after having been robbed and having another friend robbed (gunpoint and the tip of a machette). I feel safer here than in Russia or many larger US cities.

Really ? Just what kind of area are you referring to in the U.S. ? I mean,, just how tough is it to live in a decent area in ANY city in the U.S. ? or is it that the Million dollar "starter" homes in L.A. are out of the reach of a teacher ? Does this mean you need to live somewhere like Watts ? Now that might not be safer for a white guy,, but the blacks don’t seem to have a big problem.

I've lived in the U.S. all my life,, which is quite a long time and never even once thought I might be robbed. Breakin's are almost NON-EXISTANT during the nights,, hell,,, all the stupid robbers have been shot in TEXAS.



Yep,, I feel a LOT safer in Colombia than in most cities in the U.S.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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caulfield2 says on Jan 16, 2006, 04:44:

It´s the same reason I felt safer teaching in the middle of the ghetto in Kansas City. Because there is much emphasis by the police and news on minority against white crime...just like there is more emphasis in Colombia on preventing tourists from being attacked.

I had my license plates stolen twice in Kansas City, in broad daylight, right in front of my school.

If you GO looking for trouble in the US or Colombia, you can certainly find it easily enough. I have a friend in KC who refuses to live in first floor apartments after a robber broke in and then started stalking her after he got out of jail. In the US, true, there are not bars over the windows of every first floor apartment...lol...but maybe one day there will be.

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rocinante says on Jan 16, 2006, 21:21:

GAB �How is it[“the gringo auction block�] any different from internet dating in the US? A coworker found his current girlfriend on eharmony (he had been sketical about my own internet success but now he's a believer). Was she on the auction block? When I had my profile on amigos, was I on the auction block? To me the internet is simply a means to meet people that before you never would have had the opportunity to meet�- Utopóico Vaquero

eHarm is a three tiered, database web application. “the gringo auction block� (which is more than just webistes) is just a scenario – able to take place on the web, an agency, hell even a house of ill repute. I’m talking about the people involved.

Internet dating all around the world is the same vehicle for everyone. People everywhere are on internet dating sites. My brother met his wife on one - they were both looking for long term relationships leading to marriage. I used it for dating a few years ago and it is an excellent way to meet someone; no doubt. We are in agreement.

Let’s compare the two couples involved. Couple#1 represents the vast majority (your friend probably has some hidden exception so lets not talk about him – just the vast majority) of web matchmaking participants. Usually the two people live near each other, share the same culture, speak the same language, values etc…They email, connect, talk on the phone meet each other a week later and if things work out they see each other more, become an exclusive couple and after six months to a year or two they are engaged, married and blah, blah, blah.. The couple knows that this is what’s going to happen or at least this is what they envision before.signing up on the web site.

However couple#2 is not the vast majority of internet dating. The woman uses whatever vehicle (web/agency or the house of ill repute) and puts herself on the “gringo auction block�. She is saying in her mind “I am going against the norm (see couple#1 above) because of X�. She knows when she ‘signs up’ that she will be leaving her country, with someone who doesn’t share her culture, language etc. The guy also knows that he’s going to be getting a woman who doesn’t speak English, share his culture. They both know that both will be going through a somewhat pain of a process that is against the norm. For example you meet on the web or thorough an agency, you are in different countries, the girl is not allowed in your country, you fall in love on the phone or through email. You take a trip to her country, meet for the first time, in a hotel, meet the family, go to the beach in CTG with the family, vow your undying love in the airport and send money every week to her and her family – you’ve been in each others presence for a week. Now you’re back home, both of you are apart (what’s the best phone card?), you buy a ring, fly down a month later for the proposal and you’re back home for a few months alone - the first Visa process is starting – both sides need to get police reports, appostled and translated documents, the girl has to drive or fly to Bogota for the interview and all sorts of stuff. Months have passed, stuff may be delayed, lost or rejected, but sooner or later she got the visa that allows her into the US, meets your family, broken English, broken Spanish, ‘look at this hottie’. You marry. Stick her back on a plane and more months go by as you wait for the second visa process. Will her ex husband let her take the kids out of the country?

OK I think you get the point. Both parties involved may not know the exact visa process and the length of time it takes to go through all this, but none of the couple#2 participants are ignorant enough to think that they are going to go through couple#1’s scenario before they sign up on the site/agency.

Couple #2 goes through a MUCH bigger sacrifice – the biggest one is the Colombiana leaving her country in the end.

I’m talking about the mindset of the people before they meet, not what is the difference between eHarmony and the people who use it versus Amgos, Agencies and whatever.

I just think that both parties in couple#2 are sort of saying “In my current situation things aren’t that great so.... this is the option that makes more sense to me�

No more, no less. I’m of the couple#1 mindset – people in the couple#2 scenario my hat is off to you but I ain’t got what it takes to pull that off.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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utopiacowboy says on Jan 16, 2006, 22:30:

I've met women here through the internet and women from other countries on the internet and it wasn't really that different. The big difference was the whole getting to know one another process is done in person if they live nearby and it's done through Yahoo or MSN with web cams if you don't. However the process was pretty much the same and involved a lot of conversation and sharing of ideas, hopes, wishes, dreams, stories, experiences etc. You seem to emphasize the "broken English", "broken Spanish", "different cultures" etc. as though that was the norm. I never would have married my wife if our communication was not superb and we could not joke and fool around with one another. What is the point of having a wife who's not your best friend and confidante? Our idea of a perfect evening is to go to Arjon's, a Latin dance club in San Antonio. We dance and talk and dance and talk, just the two of us the entire night. You'd almost think we're a normal couple, Rocinante! Or maybe not since we are happier than any of the "normal" couples that we know.

In my case, I wasn't looking for a Colombiana. I was hoping to find a Mexicana who lived nearby that I could see every weekend (Couple #1) but when I saw her face, I just had to follow that path (Couple #2).

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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rocinante says on Jan 17, 2006, 05:09:

UC - a post for you You asked what’s the difference between the "Gringo Auction Block" and the vast majority that happily meets on eHarm�. I explained that difference (it's the mindset of the people that are different) and you acknowledged the difference weeks ago when we were discussing the woman who puts herself on the Gringo Auction Block (before she meets the hubby that is). You wrote:
"It's been an interesting discussion, Rocinante. In answer to your rhetorical question, "If we play time machine and your wife is unmarried, 25, no kids, living in CO in today, 2005, does she wake up on new year’s day and decide to leave her country and family and sign up at the agency – being the adventurous person that she is?" In my wife's case, she would never set foot in an agency. Rightly or wrongly she thinks using an agency is too much like "selling" yourself. In any event she would never have looked beyond her surroundings for a mate because her prospects for marriage were excellent. She's always had plenty of suitors especially so back then when she was young, childless and had a good job and career." - UC (click here to see whole post/thread)

Your wife at 25 childless, not in a bad situation, represents my catch22 to a T. The woman you described in that pasted text 25 unmarried, no kids, happy and having many options) weeks ago is the woman who is my type. She is not the type of woman who woke up one day and said "I have two kids, no job, no hubby I'm going to join the web/agency and try to meet some guy that will take me to Wisconsin because I'm in a "not so good situation".

For some reason you are always arguing your point. Every time I make a post that has nothing to do with you or your special situation, or if I'm speaking about the vast majority, you chime in about your little minority - about everything. You respond and I have no idea why.

My posts about “my type� or if I post to jojo about why his fiancée might be backing out at the last step of the Visa process has nothing to do you or your wife.

"You seem to emphasize the "broken English", "broken Spanish", "different cultures" etc. as though that was the norm."- UC Posted just aboveAre you telling me it's not the norm? I'm flabbergasted by what you post. Literally flabbergasted. You're saying that the men going to web/agencies looking to relocate wives are proficient in Spanish and the culture? Also you're saying that the woman who puts herself on the web/agency (knowing that they will be relocating before ever meeting any guy) speaks English?

UC - I think many of your statements lately have been a bit off. Next you'll tangent off and say how you embrace the cultural differences and I agree they are great, but please tell me that all these guys asking for your visa advice are spanish speaking individuals. I think you're full of baloney.

I see the norm here and you see the norm as well. What's the problem?

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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utopiacowboy says on Jan 17, 2006, 07:26:

You seem awfully eager to differentiate yourself between the "pasty gringo/mail order bride" stereotype and your own "pure" situation. It's more of a spectrum. Sure there are bozos who can't speak any Spanish and who go about getting a woman as though they were getting a new appliance from Best Buy. They are not the norm. Check out Planet Love, a site populated by guys who are looking for a foreign wife. A lot of them know an awful lot about Colombia and can speak Spanish. Some of their novias and spouses can speak English. Nearly all of the guys who can't speak Spanish or don't know anything about Colombia stay home and are your idealized Couple #1. There are a very few guys like myself who end up in this situation purely by accident. The reason I keep responding is in the futile hope that maybe something I say will knock you out of this little mindset that you've got about the people who make up Couple #2. You always make it sound like they are completely desperate losers. My wife and I are an extremely attractive couple - neither of us needs to look very far for attention from the opposite sex.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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bufalo says on Jan 17, 2006, 07:49:

I have to admit that the internet is not a wai, repeat, I, would use. But I know several people who used it and has worked out great, Don Vaquero Utopiano is one. People I actually know: One of my friends from colombia and her friend hooked up with two guys from Spain. both couple met, at different times in colombia, the guys went back. Shortly after both couples got married. One on the phone. both couples are happy as pigs in poop and live in Valencia, Spain. one has a child now and the other is expecting. the only thing that stuck out is that when one of the guys showed up he happened to be a lot shorter than what the girl thought. Big freaking whoop. Oh, and yes the colombians made every short joke possible at him. I still feel a little odd about the intenet marraige thing, but I also have to say that I have no "reason" too feel that way. Hey, I don't ever want to eat Mojojoy, but plenty of very happy people do.

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

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atorres says on Jan 31, 2006, 15:32:

Highly demeaning Gentlemen, I find it very disappointing the way you are portraying Colombian women to the world. Any reader looking for real information about Colombia might have at this point, thanks to your postings, the image of uncultured, stupid, drunk women, whose only interest in men is proportional to their money and willingness to pay for their surgeries.

I attended a very prestigious college in Bogota for 6 years and finished with honored thesis. Moved to America at the age of 23, spoke fluent English after 4 months of attending English classes, and obtained my greencard thanks to my skills, not to my looks. Opened my own web development corporation at the age of 25 and by the same age I had already paid for my student loans (which most Americans my age are still dealing with). I have never had any surgery (either for cosmetic or health purposes) and wouldn’t even consider it unless ordered by a doctor. Never tried any drugs in my life and if I have a glass or two of wine it is only during a social gathering, on a weekend and with absolute responsibility when driving home. I live in a 3 stories house and take care of all the bills generated by my business or home.

So let’s pretend for a moment that your postings are true and those are the kind of women you have met in Colombia. Let me remind you that there are women like them here in America as well. Then I’ll have to picture you in the middle of the Bronx, some dive bar at a red neck town or Vegas. With that said gentlemen, you have only found what you’ve been looking for and if you were looking for cultured, independent and smart women I suggest you visit different neighborhoods.

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utopiacowboy says on Feb 1, 2006, 07:53:

How about a pic, Atorres?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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caulfield2 says on Feb 1, 2006, 09:18:

Atorres, have you ever stopped to consider that many of the best and brightest of Colombia, like you claim to be, might have left Colombia already? Which might have some correlation to why they are so hard to find...

It seems you have become TOO American already. You are espousing all your accomplishments, which goes directly against the mentality of most of the Colombians that I know. I hope you are happy and feel successful to have a 3 ¨story¨ house in your possession.

Have you ever thought about coming back to Colombia and using your skills to make this country better? Since you claim to be in the web business, you can easily do the same things down here, so obviously you chose to leave for a reason.

Wouldn´t you be suspicious of the motives of women you met down here on a vacation when they found out you had a green card and could eventually help them come to the US with that status?

You could meet a ¨good girl¨ at a local Catholic church or the library or an interent cafe instead of a discoteca, but does that mean she won´t be the least bit materialistic? In fact, your quest for wealth, success and power is bleeding over into Colombia and eroding the ¨traditional¨ values that many espouse, values that supposedly differentiate Colombia from the US. Everyone wants what you have...so they are changing their definition of success to a more wealth-oriented one, as you have apparently chosen.

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DonkeyDust says on Feb 1, 2006, 12:15:

I am a 55 yo (wasp) who wants to meet a woman in Colombia Does that sound like a stereotype. Retire in a latin country for the winters. Like Latin women. Hmmm sounds like a connection here, Latin Women might also want to spend thier winters in Medellin.

Canadian women:key words, "hitting on" Issues,"credit cards" and they want a resume from prospects to see if they are worthy. The ones that dont seem rare.

As for meeting (hitting on?)Latin women, it is just doesnt seem like hitting on them, and the odds of finding one that is my type is a lot better. To be honest I rarely even smile at Canadian women anymore and am suprised when smiles at me. But it certainly is nice.

With all that is said about gold diggers here in Colombia (Medellin) i think there are more in Vancouver. They do have money issues here but that doesnt mean gold digging.

Now with all that being said, I have been here several weeks and not really found one who I think would be right for me. Usually because they are too young. The young ones 20 to 26 seem so easy going and fun.
So I think I need to use all avenues to meet. Word of mouth, internet, sports, the supermarket. The only one I am comfortable with is the internet and sports .... as "hunting" while your shopping just doesnt feel right to me, maybe I just havent learned how to do it, where you just are friendly and things progress without effort.

Changes in Latitudes...attitudes.

Latitudes attitudes & platitudes.

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atorres says on Feb 1, 2006, 12:52:

The facts first At the top of this page you wrote "There is a plethora of women in this region that have had plastic surgery, including many of my students and their families." ~ Let me get this straight… you are the English teacher looking into your students and their mom’s cleavage? ~ Thank God I don’t have kids!

Then you added “I will just put it this way, about 75-80% would choose winning Miss Colombia or a modeling contract over being the CEO of Aguila or Postobon.� ~ And the source of your stats would be? Did you do a “Censo� of the area to come up with these figures?

And here comes the cherry on top when you said: “The biggest challenge is never confusing your status as an American with anything but the fact that every country that is economically challenged has women that are looking for the bigger, better deal.� ~ So exactly when or where “Your status as an American� made you “the bigger, better deal�. Are you telling me that if you go into a discoteca and wave out your American papers all women will throw themselves to you and beg you to bring them? Facts: The moment you start dancing salsa, merengue or vallenato like “A Frog in a Blender� you will not longer be “the bigger, better deal� and Colombian women will be laughing at you.

Other comments on this page like “My personal impression is that a young lady wanting to leave Colombia for a foreign life, hardly ever seeing her family, foreign language and bad weather - well something is up for that to be a 'choice'� ~ Please gentlemen, stop putting words in our mouths and thoughts in our minds. Can’t a Colombian young woman wake up one day and realize that life is short and the world is too big? That the sooner she starts traveling the more she’ll see and experience? Didn’t you foreigners living in Colombia leave your countries and families too?

My comment is geared for you gentlemen to stop making generalizations. PROVE TO ME that 75-80% of Colombian Women would choose winning Miss Colombia or a modeling contract over being the CEO of Aguila or Postobon. ~ Tough ah? Exactly my point, if you don’t have the real facts, don’t say it. Just because two ex-boyfriends entering their 30’s started buying Rogaine I don’t tell my Colombian girlfriends that 75-80% of American men start loosing their hair in their 30’s, or just because I didn’t think they were good kissers I don’t go around telling my girlfriends that 75-80% of American men are bad kissers.

I thought a language teacher would make better use of words “Mr. Bigger & Better Deal�

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utopiacowboy says on Feb 1, 2006, 12:59:

You definitely need a bigger sample, Atorres. I agree with you about the generalizations. They're a staple of PBH.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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caulfield2 says on Feb 1, 2006, 13:54:

Well, geez, obviously you haven´t spent much time living in Eje Cafetero, because the women in this region that have chosen to have surgery do not try to hide it...they show up to school wearing blouses and skin tight jeans that dare you not to look at their, so to speak, attributes. It is certainly not a secret. In the US when someone has surgery, she usually says they are ¨real¨ or they´re natural. Here, a lot of the women I have met are very proud of their surgeries and wear clothing that accentuates it.

There is something wrong when former beauty queens make their 15 or 16 year old daughters that are no more than 10-15 pounds overweight get liposuction or rhinoplasty.

Yes, a generalization about winning the beauty pageant...I haven´t polled 100 people exactly, just an estimate. I will just put it this way, the Miss America pageant in the US can´t even find a TV sponsor, whereas the pageant here has 4 stations devoted to nightly coverage that begins 2-3 weeks in advance of the actual event.

Yes, I would rather find the type of woman that would be a CEO...maybe there are more in bigger, more sophisticated cities like Bogota, Medellin and Cali.

I can quote the immigration statistics of American men or women moving applying to become citizens of Colombia versus the opposite...this has nothing to do with me thinking I am better as an American. I think it´s ridiculous to be treated better or more nicely simply because of that status. It´s the mentality of a handful of girls in every city that are looking to get into the US...I have no illusions as a teacher that someone might go after my girl that can offer a bigger house, car, lifestyle, etc. Of course, I would never want to be with a girl like that...in fact, I have seriously dated a couple of women here, and neither were interested in going to the US, even on a tourist visa.

I can dance salsa, reggaeton not great, but I don´t embarrass myself either. I had four girls give me their phone numbers in Mango Biche in Pereira, and this was at the end of the night after I had been dancing 2-3 hours. My first girlfriend taught me salsa dancing...I don´t like vallenato and wouldn´t attempt to dance to it.

I know too many couples that have struggled with that transition (one leaving his-her country for the US) because they didn´t know each other well enough, or even love each other...this caused them to give up too easily when they should have fought through the difficulties. I agree with the idea of travelling, exposure to new experiences and cultures....it would be great if my students back in the US had the opportunity to see more than a couple of different states, and my students here have been fortunate enough to go to the US to visit family, friends and relatives, probably 80-90% of the kids in the school I would guess.

I have even been told by my girlfriends down here that I kiss like a Colombian, which, I would infer from your comments, is a compliment of sorts.

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caslug says on Feb 1, 2006, 14:01:

I dont know if COL.. is MORE materialistic than US(which is), BUT i know COL does not have the financial means to be materialist like the US. In the US, girls/guys want material things also, BUT they have the financial power to buy these things and pay them off because wages are higher and interest rates(on credit card) is lower. Even with that situation, many americans go into debt to keep their lifestyle. Again, debt management in US is lot easy(via higher wage/low interest) than COL.

What i notice in COL is people still want nice things, BUT the wages are low and the interest is high(20-30% on credit). BUT people are still buying TV, toys, clothes, etc., but they buy it on credit at 20-30% interest, they have to find a way to pay for it. And of course they DO see foreigners(ie, US/europe) as having more financial means.

ALso, COL being a sexist culture DOES put LOTS of pressure on women to look their best. Hence more plastic surgery percentage wise than the US, considering that plastic suregery is still relatively expensive for the average COL($3.0mil peso while the minimum wage is $400k peso/mo) versus US(2500 USD while the minimum wage is 1200USD/mo) so it takes a US person 2 1/2 mos to pay off a pair while COL takes 7 1/2 mos. You would think that COL then would use their money on luxury purchase, but no lots of still buy it, by going into debt(or their family) or having a "sponser" pay for it. Much more than in the US that's for sure.

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caulfield2 says on Feb 1, 2006, 14:14:

Atorrres,I am sure you ar Atorrres,

I am sure you are not going to provide a picture to prove that you really exist or are Colombian, but I have to say that I am impressed with your ability to make a point and stand your ground at least.

Although I am not sure that I believe that you can reach complete English fluency in 4 months, whereas it takes most people 5-7 years to learn another language, you seem to have a pretty sound head on your shoulders.

Did you open your web development business before or after the dot.com crash? If you managed to survive it and are still in existence, then you are one of the 5% that actually made it and came out on the other side. Can you describe more thoroughly what services you offer? Why did you decide to move to the United States? How long have you lived there?

If you are so talented with computers, I would think you would want to use your talent and expertise to bring those skills and teach here in Colombia, a country where many are not comfortable with computers, even simple processes like opening an e-mail or writing a document in MS Word. You have to know that this is one of the biggest gaps separating the US and Colombia in the newly-globalized economy, not to mention potential competition from India and China for jobs in the future.

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Wastelandlive says on Feb 1, 2006, 14:24:

The old "you shouldn't generalize" argument. But what if I want to generalize? What if I freely admit that there are exceptions, but that "in general," some social phenomena is... thus?

Is there no truth to a generalization?

Atorres... do you really want to argue that an American in Colombia doesn't have an added advantage in attracting the opposite sex due to the opportunities that his nationality avails him? What, because he can't salsa?

I'm sorry if you find the discussion demeaning to you because you are a Colombiana. But I don't think you should take it personally, or shoot the messenger. It is what it is.

Utopiacowboy... while you MAY be an exception to the mail order bride phenomenon, are you really going to spin it to suggest that finding your mate on a mail order bride site is the same thing as finding her on match.com?

Rocinante notes:

"Every time I make a post that has nothing to do with you or your special situation, or if I'm speaking about the vast majority, you chime in about your little minority - about everything. You respond and I have no idea why."

And I have to say... having read you for many moons, it's fairly OBVIOUS why. Why not just own up to it like a big man?

"Here's what I did. It worked out for me thus. I'm very happy."

Personally, I think that at some point a man has to know what he wants, cease to care what other people think, and go for it. If I thought the mail order bride thing would work for me, I'd be all over it in a New York minute. No apologies or excuses.

Why the denial everybody?

Wasteland

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atorres says on Feb 1, 2006, 14:26:

Women trying by any means to look attractive it’s part of being a woman. Whether they are Colombian or not. I have seen the unattractive love handles hanging out of a low rise jean not only in Colombia (which I just arrived from 3 weeks ago) but have also seen them in NYC, LA or San Francisco ~ low rise jeans are a global fashion and so are fake boobs. And cheap prostitutes, well, they are not only in Colombia either. A friend was offered a blow job for what was left of the cigarette he was smoking in San Francisco. I did not think men looked attractive, back in the 80’s wearing tight jeans and splitting their crotch in half ~ but they did, and not only in America. So you see, that’s when generalizations do not work.

I agree with you that Colombian women care, at some points too much, for their physical appearance, but I wouldn’t dare to enclose all Colombian women under that category.

This is not a personal attack to any of the men in this blog, but when some put down Colombian women they way you have done it in this page that’s a personal attack to me, for I’m one of them and I don’t fit under any of the descriptions written here.

Food for thought: if two siblings from the same father and mother can be so different, how can you enclose all women from an entire country under such demeaning image you have described here?

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caulfield2 says on Feb 1, 2006, 14:36:

Very simply, because you usually speak about what you KNOW.

It´s the same reason people talk about Cartagena and they don´t mention Barrio Nelson Mandela...instead, they talk about Bocagrande, La Popa, Castle San Felipe, the beach, discotecas (or whether they will be shot in one, like the Colombian national player recently), etc.

In just the last three months alone, I have seen three movies that had negative stereotypes about Colombia---Mr. and Mrs. Smith, Transporter II and now Azul Extremo. I sincerely doubt any of the directors of these movies have once set foot in Colombia, yet they are making disparaging comments about it with their script that do much more damage to Colombia than one million internet message boards. Have you thought of writing them letters? Did you get mad when you saw Maria Full of Grace, Sumas y Restas, Rosario Tijeras, La Sierra or The Rose Seller? Everyone speaks of the side of Colombia they know....it´s just sometimes we don´t like what they have to say or we don´t like that it exists as a reality.

High quality women usually don´t want to have anything to do with gringos in the first place....and this is not only true of Colombianas, but of women in any country of the world, lol...because they have equal or better options and positions in their own countries, and most of the gringos can be or are perros. In that case, the perro you know is better than the one you don´t.

There are certainly many beautiful women here, but many lack the qualities I am looking for in a lifelong partner. It´s not that I am too good for them...it´s just that they are not yet able to be the persons they are meant to be due to the country in which they live in...

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Wastelandlive says on Feb 1, 2006, 14:37:

More food for thought: A: "I did not think men looked attractive, back in the 80’s wearing tight jeans and splitting their crotch in half ~ but they did, and not only in America. So you see, that’s when generalizations do not work."

Hard to argue with that logic. Hard to even understand it.

A: "... but when some put down Colombian women they way you have done it in this page that’s a personal attack to me, for I’m one of them and I don’t fit under any of the descriptions written here."

I'd dispute the fact that anyone "put down" Colombian women as a group in this thread.

And - as a matter of fact - nothing in this thread has been a personal attack on you, atorres.

But we can all find offense if we look hard enough. I personally find your efforts to censor a conversation by calling it offensive offensive.

I hope that doesn't offend you.

Wasteland

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atorres says on Feb 1, 2006, 14:59:

I don't think how a picture can prove my point about generalizations but if you are so inclined there is one at http://www.gurneys-inn.com/Credits.htm
Fluency of English in 4 months? I found English logical and with verbs you don't have to conjugate them for each person and each tense like you do with French, Spanish and Italian.
I have managed to survived with web development quite well for I have worked from the beginning with the travel industry and their sales and exposure highly depends on the web.
Why did I move to the States? We all have a call. Some have a call to be a priest, some to be a mother or a teacher, my call is travel and computers. I realized if I wanted to travel I should reside at a place with a strong coin. At the point of my decision it was the US and here I am. I’ve been here for 8 years.
I have a group of freelancers in Colombia I provide software, manuals and tutoring when it comes to web development, but pretend to teach the entire country is not in my plans. When it comes to checks and credit cards many Colombians are still skeptical for things that have happened to them or stories they have heard. Even many of my friends in Colombia would not put their credit card information on a website. Therefore my job would be very difficult there. I deploy systems that are completely relied on credit card transactions over the web and there is still much to do in Colombia only to change the mind set to trust the web.
After 8 years I have fallen in love with America and don’t picture going back to Colombia. It’s not turning my back on them, as you have seen it’s not lack of love to my country or to be a Colombiana, it’s just my traveling spirit – I’d rather start all over again in another country where I had to learn a different language.

Guys have to go now… hope you find a girl that changes your mind about Colombianas

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rocinante says on Feb 1, 2006, 16:01:

Dream Weaver Andrea, you, like Don Utopóico Vaquero are in the minority. I never address the minority. I can't really say you and your mindset is representative of the vast majority of Colombianas. And Utopóico Vaquero is not representative of the mail order bride guys either.

Andrea, hypothetical YES/NO question: Q:"Would you, living in Colombia and not having the fortunate means of entering the US, put yourself on a marriage agency or internet website and look for a fat 40 year old US guy who cannot speak your language etc... so that you can get married and move out of Colombia and into Ohio, USA so that you could have a better life?"

Before you answer that silly question...

You did quote me albeit out of context "My personal impression is that a young lady wanting to leave Colombia for a foreign life, hardly ever seeing her family, foreign language and bad weather - well something is up for that to be a 'choice" is a reference to a woman who says "yes" to the question I just asked you. She is not the norm.

You were probably too busy having DreamWeaver create your websites that you misunderstood my post. Not a problem as they are usually very long winded anyway. Generalizations and stereotypes have roots from somewhere.....

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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atorres says on Feb 1, 2006, 17:37:

Rocinante That web page paid my way thru English classes and dreamweaver doesn't do my websites. I develop applications at this point after 8 years in the US. I just thought of that page as it is the only one with a picture of me.
Answering your hypothetical question - No! I'm very specific when it comes to choose my partner - how could I go for a person I don't even know? But if it works for other people good for them and wish them happiness.
I understand what you mean about misunderstanding your posting… some of my postings have been misunderstood as well. For that I apologize. The only point I wanted to make here, whether it makes a difference or not, is that not ALL or 80% of Colombian women are only interested in their looks more than their brain, or in American men to take them out of Colombia or incapable of reaching their dreams by themselves. But there are nice girls in Colombia, with their unique and priceless personalities, not willing to change anything for their family, traditions or food for anything else and I hope you meet them.

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caslug says on Feb 1, 2006, 18:07:

atorres..COL society IS much more concern about looks than, say US society. YES women in the US are pressure to look good, BUT not to the extent as COL women are. DO you remember the job ads in COL, they still post, under 30 yr old, attractive, send resume and foto and that's for office or sales job. secratary in COL can get laid off and replaced by a less experience BUT younger and more attractive(not to mention willing to sleep with the boss) gal.

ALso, walk around any major city in COL, you see young girls(under 10 yrs old) will be wearing mini-skirt or low rise jean. In the US, you dont see that very often. Girls in the US dont start to feel the pressure of looking "sexy" until they get to junior high 12/13 yrs old. While girls/women in the US do dress sexy on occasion, going out on a date or to an event. They have no problem looking drab to run errands. while in COL you rarely see a under 35 yr women dress shabby even if she going to the store. SHe'll wear sexy clothing.

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atorres says on Feb 1, 2006, 19:50:

What a relief! One of the first things I noticed when I moved here was looking at men and women wearing suits and sneakers for work in NYC. BRILLIANT!
Would you see such thing in Colombia? No! Why? The looks pressure. I totally agree with you. Sure I also noticed more use of make up in Colombia than in here. Eye contact or better described, eye check: a person in Colombia (male or female) checks you out top to bottom and with the same look lets you know if he/she approves of your choice of clothes. Here I rapidly learned not to make eye contact and to care less if I wore the same pair of jeans I wore yesterday.
Based on my experience I could say that American culture is more geared towards comfort. Just as some Colombians can go to the extreme wearing tight low rise jeans and see through tops some Americans can also go to the extreme wearing their sleep wear for breakfast at a dining room in a resort. Comfort vs. looks, I go for comfort but still encoded in my cultural DNA, as I call it, there is a balance for feeling good with the way I look.

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webmanco says on Feb 2, 2006, 05:05:

Atorres Thanks for your inputs, your presence was most needed in this forum. I know there are many inteligent colombian women like you, both in Colombia and abroad, and the advice once given to male foreigners on this forum was,

come to Colombia you will have it easy with the girls, dont´even worry about your looks, they all will die for your blue passport and money.


to what I reply that if they come with that in mind, they are up to big surprises.

Because I know many women in Colombia don´t dream with a blue or anyother passport color.

It is true that some women will be easy, I saw a colombian girl with a foreigner in AfriKafe on a Saturday, having fun, kissing, drinking and smoking, I happen to see the same girl with a differnt foreinger at the same nigh club with the same attitude.




COLOMBIA

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

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caulfield2 says on Feb 2, 2006, 08:32:

I always laugh when I see posts like this. At least atorres can conduct herself in a respectful manner. I used to post at a site called rwguide.com (when I was travelling back and forth to see a woman in Russia) and everyone just accepted the racism and hateful comments of this female poster (she had married and was living in the US), well, because she was a woman, and two, because she was from Russia. So they basically tolerated all kinds of incredibly outlandish comments from her because they felt they had to do whatever was necessary to attract and keep ANY female posters.

The problem is that a ton of people started posting pretending to be females...criticizing all American men (you can´t get a woman in the US, so what gives you the right to go to another country? was a typical comment).

Ms. Torres seems very genuine...and sometimes we do forget that there are people who don´t always agree with every opinion that we offer, lol.

I don´t think that ANYONE could argue with the fact that there are a significant number of Colombian women that are interested in Americans for the wrong reasons...the primary one being desperation, due to their circumstances. Clearly, that doesn´t make all women that marry Americans BAD or OPPORTUNISTIC, but the MAJORITY who are looking at going to the US as their FIRST priority usually would not have ¨romantic love¨ as their primary reason for leaving Colombia.

Of course, girls care about your appearance, your personality, intelligence, how you are or would be as a father, your age, whether you are an egoista or not...but when things are EVEN or RELATIVELY even, the vast majority would prefer the American man because they know that there are more economic opportunities right now in the US.

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rocinante says on Feb 2, 2006, 08:47:

Atorres, they are not complete strangers Thanks for the intelligence.

"...how could I go for a person I don't even know" -atorres

Andrea, in response, a good majority of posters here on this site are American and European
gentlemen who have gone to dating websites specifically looking for Colombiana a thousand miles away living in a different world in a different culture. The difference between Colombia and the US is very different than the US and, say Canada. These women are looking to leave the country (there is a whole forum here dedicated to VISAS that is dominated by the "relocation of the Colombian wife"). Most, if not all of these women have kids, are over 30 and are in a bad situation - so they are taking this route, which entails a website to find a man and "falling in love" via email phone and instant messaging - even though there is a tremendous language barrier. Usually the age difference is big and the woman is making a bit of a sacrifice and compromise for the sake of her children and family back home. Sooner or later the guy will fly to CO to meet the potential wife and her family for the first time and then the proposal will happen on the second visit. So they are not strangers. Those who post here frequently are familiar with the process so I can see why you may have thought that these couples are complete strangers - this is not the case.

These woman who go this route are NOT the majority in Colombia as most women there are happy there; or if they are able to relocate here they are women like yourself who are on their own and are not desperate and looking for a man to rescue them.

I am a lot like you however in reverse -
leaving the US for Colombia - but my reasons are
the same as yours. Although: "But there are nice girls in Colombia, with their unique and priceless personalities, not willing to change anything for their family, traditions or food for anything else and I hope you meet them." -atorres Those women are the icing on the cake - not the whole cake.

By the way, the link you posted sends us to a page generated that is loaded with macromedia script. I assumed it was DW generated.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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utopiacowboy says on Feb 2, 2006, 09:53:

I am not sure I understand this comment: "Utopiacowboy... while you MAY be an exception to the mail order bride phenomenon, are you really going to spin it to suggest that finding your mate on a mail order bride site is the same thing as finding her on match.com?" I met my wife on amigos.com which is pretty much the same as meeting someone on match.com.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Colombiche says on Feb 2, 2006, 12:28:

Atorres Colombian women like you and I are seriosly underrepresented and misrepresented in this forum, hence the reason why these posts all gravitate to the same tiresome topic of the golddigger, the dumb colombian woman with a low iq and tight jeans.... etc etc.

These guys find it so hard to believe that a Colombian woman can be educated and articulate, that once they come across one such specimen, they question your existence. No, they say, you must be a North American male with a soft spot for Colombian women, passing yourself for one in order to defend the poor voiceless sisters.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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rocinante says on Feb 2, 2006, 12:38:

Colombiche Colombiche - you're 400 lbs - get off the soap box before it breaks!

" I met my wife on amigos.com which is pretty much the same as meeting someone on match.com. " - UC … Which is pretty much the same thing as a marriage agency – it all depends on the people involved. Please compare the couples not the website.

My brother met his wife on Match.com. They met each other and dated (and actually saw each other face to face a few times a week) for about a year before getting engaged. Neither one was desperate and had no problem meeting people live on the streets.

You can't say they are the same as the posters here doing the Colombiana relocation thing just because they used the same website!

Last summer I got an email on match.com from some chick in Seattle. I'm in NYC and there are hundreds of women here. But I was going to be in Seattle on business in a month so I hesitantly answered her email - ya never know. We corresponded daily for two weeks. Turns out she's really in Russia. She would have married me in a heartbeat, but for the wrong reasons. I could never live with myself knowing that she would have married any guy from the US who was halfway decent and could get her out of Russia. She got engaged six weeks later - she still emails me and sends photos. She will be here in a month.

It's funny how the mail order guys here think that their Colombiana is only married to them because they are a special gringo, and that she wasn't looking for a gringo, but they happened to stumble on each other accidentally and some big romantic story.

Do you think we were born yesterday?

At least some guys here are honest with themselves and the ones that aren't are my real pet peeve. The whole mail order thing actually works for a good amount of people because of the "boats" that they're in – but don't dress it up as anything else because of the name of the website.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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utopiacowboy says on Feb 2, 2006, 12:41:

I had to take notice of this comment: "High quality women usually don´t want to have anything to do with gringos in the first place....and this is not only true of Colombianas, but of women in any country of the world, lol...because they have equal or better options and positions in their own countries, and most of the gringos can be or are perros. In that case, the perro you know is better than the one you don´t." I think if you ask Colombian women they would disagree. Rightly or wrongly they have a very high opinion of North American men as husband material. After living here a couple of years my wife believes that American men are far better behaved than their Colombian counterparts, many of whom are yelling suggestive remarks at women they do not know or attempting to grope or molest them.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Colombiche says on Feb 2, 2006, 12:46:

Rocinante Colombiche - you're 400 lbs - get off the soap box before it breaks!

yeah, right. I could be a 115 pound, 90-60-90 young hot thing, or maybe I am a 400 pound heavy weight mama with a mustache and pimples on my face. Either way, none of that should be of any relevance when it comes to voicing my opinion, now should it?
Wait a minute... could you possibly be materialistic? isn't that one of the deadly sins that is killing us colombianas (at least according to PBH)?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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utopiacowboy says on Feb 2, 2006, 12:47:

You comments, Rocinante, aggravate me as much as mine do you. You have an idea in your head which you hold onto as tightly as a dog with a bone. The desperate woman, the gringo rescuer, the inability to communicate, the mail-order auction, etc etc etc. What will you do if you go to Colombia, meet a woman, fall in love and find out later that she once had her profile on amigos or worse yet, had been registered with a marriage agency? Will you be a man of principle and dump her?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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rocinante says on Feb 2, 2006, 12:57:

catch 22 The catch 22 prohibits that from happening. Any woman that I'd meet down there would either never be on the web or would have moved off the shelf.

I don't mean to agrivate you but it seems as if you'll do anything, and I mean anything, to make your situation seem as though you are not doing the mail order relocation thing. Remember when you were in Bogota and that gringo guy said to you, "Hey, buddy, looks we're in the same boat [both taking Colombianas out of CO and relocating them the US]". It pretty much started there for you. You will defend to the death how your situation is different and honestly you don't really need to. You should be tired of all this by now. I'm a fast typer and find this whole relocation thing really amusing. If it was not discussed ad nauseam here I'd have moved on a after my second trip to CO back in November - as pretty much anything that this site could offer me had been exhausted. I only apologize that I'm not able to give much back.

But back to you - of course your friends are not on this website so they think it's just great that you have such a smokin' wife and a great family and I'm sure they swoon when hearing the story of your courtship, trials and tribulations.

But the folks here are better educated, living the same thing that you went though for the most part - just like that guy at the Embassy in Bogota - the one in the same boat as you.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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Colombiche says on Feb 2, 2006, 12:57:

Rocinante... So if I understand you correctly, according to your view, there are two types of women in Colombia:

1) Quality women

2) Non-quality women

Boy, reminds me of that passage of the apocalypse when the righteous are told to move to the right and the condemned are told to go to the left. It's either, come to my kingdom or burn in hell.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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utopiacowboy says on Feb 2, 2006, 12:59:

"My brother met his wife on Match.com. They met each other and dated (and actually saw each other face to face a few times a week) for about a year before getting engaged. Neither one was desperate and had no problem meeting people live on the streets." How is meeting face to face so much better than talking nightly with two web cams? I used to talk to my wife before she was my wife an average of a couple of hours a night almost every night. I think I knew her better after a couple of months than any person on this planet. I certainly knew her far better than women that I dated here and used to see maybe once or twice a week. My only problem meeting people "on the streets" (en la calle as my wife would contemptuously say) was I lived in a place with hardly any people at all, married or single. Which led me to amigos in hopes of expanding the pool of available women to Mexicanas who lived close by. I've never had a problem finding women to go out with but in terms of a mate, I have very high expectations and desires. I wanted a wife who was truly mi media naranja. So many people settle for someone who is conveniently available. They meet at the same work place or church etc and while they may have an acceptable marriage it's not extraordinary. I wanted to have a marriage that would be an example to my children of what is possible if you are not willing to settle, a true marriage of hearts and minds and souls.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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rocinante says on Feb 2, 2006, 13:00:

biche There are two types of women in colombia that I am specifically talking about - my type and not my type. All of the other categories they fall into - too numerous to list - are not part of the scope. No one is really only in just one category. I think you know that's impossible.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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Colombiche says on Feb 2, 2006, 13:05:

oh okay, got you So your type = quality and not your type = not quality.

Simple enough for you, but your definitions need not apply to everybody else.

To somebody else, what you deem as a non-quality woman, might very well be their soulmate, and may possess an