Few Civilians Remain in Colombian Village

platano says on Apr 20, 2005, 06:53:

The polls says FARC has "little popular support".... yet a band of 11,000 to 17,000 (or is it really 200,000 with urban militias?) can hold Colombia hostage for 40 years, controlling large portions of the rural areas and controlling the budgets of many municipalities. Running Colombia's largest prison complex with hundreds (thousands?) of prisoners of war and yet remaining undetected (if you believe no one knows where those victims of FARC kidnapping are).

Something doesn't add up. Either they have more than 17,000 militants, or they have more popular support. Or the definition of "little" varies, just like "representative sample"? :)

Or, perhaps they have divine support? I have heard that with God all things are possible.

Plátano X,
Platano,
Plátano
DISCLAIMER: I suffer dissociative personality disorder. ¡Ten piedad!

plátano

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Mr. Hollywood says on Apr 20, 2005, 07:20:

Do some math Platano, "little popular support" is a term defined by polling percentages. Colombia has something like 40 million citizens. Only 1% of that would equal 40,000 supporters. So let's say they have 2-5% support of the national population. That's statistically "little" yet still a pretty large number of people.

When talking about the FARC people often say, "They have an army of 15,000-20,000 members. Why can't an army of 300,000 defeat them?" But maybe looking at it as an army is the wrong model. The Mafia in the US has WAY less than 15,000 active members, yet in all its years the FBI hasn't been able to stamp it out. And that's in a country without vast jungles and nearby neighbors providing shelter to the mafia. Stamping out the FARC is no joke and probably will NEVER happen completely. I think Uribe's strategy, however, of isolating the Farc and trying to render them largely ineffecitve could work in the long term.

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platano says on Apr 20, 2005, 07:35:

Mr. Hollywood, You are making my point... the percentage is ridiculously small compared to the population census of the entire country.

Re: Uribe's strategy of isolating the FARC... you may be on to something here. Hey, I know... how about if they create "strategic hamlets" and then use defoliant extensively to take away FARC jungle advantage. Surely pacification would result and FARC will be defeated.

And before you ask what I suggest as an alternative I will tell you: vocal cords.

Plátano X,
Platano,
Plátano
DISCLAIMER: I suffer dissociative personality disorder. ¡Ten piedad!

plátano

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Lionheart says on Apr 20, 2005, 15:57:

UPDATE: Colombian Forces Try to Break Rebel Siege Colombian Forces Try to Break Rebel Siege

Wed Apr 20, 3:06 PM ET World - AP Latin America

By DAN MOLINSKI, Associated Press Writer

TORIBIO, Colombia - Government troops backed by armored vehicles made their way along a mountain road Wednesday to this bomb-scarred Andean town to break a weeklong siege by well-armed Colombian rebels — who vowed not to withdraw.

More than half of Toribio's 3,000 residents returned to the village Wednesday morning from nearby shelters, only to abandon it again hours later for fear the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, known as the FARC, would attack in the afternoon.

The rebels already have assaulted Toribio twice since Thursday and now control road access to the Indian village, perched amid steep Andean mountains about 240 miles southwest of Bogota. At least five counterinsurgency police officers, two soldiers and a 9-year-old boy have been killed and dozens of civilians and officers wounded since Thursday. There was no word on FARC casualties.

Dozens of counterinsurgency police and army troops who earlier arrived by helicopter patrolled the town, hugging shrapnel and bullet-pocked building walls to avoid rebel snipers.

The siege poses a major challenge to President Alvaro Uribe's efforts to bring order to this South American nation wracked by a 40-year-old leftist insurgency and drug trafficking. Uribe personally flew into the town Friday to assure villagers they were safe and to denounce the rebels as "cowards."

The armored column will try to punch an overland route through rebel lines and relieve forces holed up in Toribio, Maj. Alvaro Moya, who is overseeing army operations, told The Associated Press in an interview inside the besieged town. He said he expected the rebels to melt into the wooded mountains as the ground forces approach.

But the guerrillas seemed equally determined.

"We have no plans to leave here," a rebel platoon leader named Carlos told the AP Tuesday evening at a roadside checkpoint less than 2 miles from Toribio. He said some 500 FARC members were involved in the siege.

Another rebel at the FARC checkpoint outside Toribio appeared eager for a confrontation.

"I'm going to get to hit those guys hard," said the 17-year-old rebel, who identified himself only as Alexis. He toted a mortar over his shoulder and his backpack was filled with tightly wound electrical wire used for explosives.

Moya said he has some 500 troops under his command. Army chief Gen. Reinaldo Castellanos planned to visit the scene, the Ministry of Defense said in Bogota, underscoring the government's concern.

Most of the residents of Toribio have sought refuge in a school and homes in the hamlet of San Francisco, 10 minutes' walk from here. Hundreds descended from the hamlet Wednesday morning to return to their homes, many of them in ruins after the adobe buildings were shattered by rebel rockets and mortars.

But a FARC guerrilla met community members in San Francisco on Wednesday and warned them to stay away from the village in the afternoon, said Leonardo Jurado, an official in the indigenous community in Toribio, made up mostly of the Nasa tribe. After word spread, those who had returned to town quickly abandoned it again. Before noon, an explosion echoed from the surrounding mountains as a clash erupted between rebels and army troops deployed by helicopter in recent days.

Town Mayor Arquimedes Vitonas said he longed for normalcy to return to this farming community.

"We've all got work to do," he said. "We can't spend another week in refugee shelters."

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utopiacowboy says on Apr 20, 2005, 17:24:

OK, I am not a military strategist but if the FARC has 500 guerillas there, how come the army doesn't come in with a vastly superior force, surround them, and then annilate them? Especially with a lot of air support?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Lionheart says on Apr 20, 2005, 19:24:

I don't understand it either I agree with UC, it is beyond comprehension ...

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Sr Tertius says on Apr 20, 2005, 19:48:

My guess... Is that the mountainous area is not easily accessible. El Tiempo reports that the inhabitants of Jambaló were warned by government forces to leave the town, because it will be bombed. So, I guess the new strategy is to behave like the FARC.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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platano says on Apr 20, 2005, 20:17:

Aren't both actions a violation of international law (Geneva)? Forcing civilians to leave by using gas cylinders as bombs, or forcing civilians to leave by warning everyone to leave the town so it can be bombed by government forces? I thought the Geneva Conventions protected civilians from forced displacement. If the government plans to bomb the town, then it sounds like they are making the assumption that anyone who stays is fair game ("the enemy") and that is as illegal as the FARC bombings.

I am seriously considering taking both Tirofijo and Uribe to court on this one.

Plátano X, banana military strategist and farsical international law expert
Platano, available for interviews on CNN and Fox News

plátano

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Sr Tertius says on Apr 21, 2005, 09:34:

Correction: The warning reported by El Tiempo was made by the FARC: They are telling the people of Jambalo that the armed forces are going to bomb them.

"El que a hierro mata..."

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Lionheart says on Apr 21, 2005, 16:42:

Update: Indigenous Guards Face Colombia Guerrillas Indigenous Guards Face Colombia Guerrillas

1 hour, 38 minutes ago World - AP Latin America

By DAN MOLINSKI, Associated Press Writer

TORIBIO, Colombia - A puff of smoke appears in the emerald mountains above Toribio, a sign rebels have fired another mortar round. Within minutes, unarmed members of the Indigenous Guard are facing the guerrillas with a request: Please don't attack our town.

The Indigenous Guard has freed hostages and prevented takeovers of Indian villages in recent years, and is being severely tested by the current rebel siege of this Indian town in southwest Colombia.

The Nasa Indian tribe prefers to use peaceful pressure to shield itself from Colombia's war, now in its 40th year. Carrying only decorated ceremonial wooden batons — black ones for a chief and other leaders, brown ones for guards — guardsmen have been trying to dissuade the rebels from bombarding their town.

Attacks by the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, since April 14 have reduced nearly a dozen adobe buildings in Toribio to rubble and killed at least five police officers, two soldiers and a 9-year-old boy. The rebels have been targeting a police bunker and government troops, who arrived in the town by helicopter.

Efrain Vitonas, head of the town's Indigenous Guard, told The Associated Press on Thursday that his team's efforts have been partially successful.

He said that in one case, the Indigenous Guards heard the thump of a mortar round Wednesday and scanned the mountains for the position of the rebels' homemade mortar, which fires natural gas cylinders packed with explosives.

Keeping their eyes on the telltale puff of smoke, three Indians hopped on motorcycles and roared off to the position. When the path became too rough, they left their bikes, grabbed their ceremonial sticks and hiked to the spot, where they found about 20 rebels.

"We asked them to stop bombing with gas cylinders because they lack accuracy and could easily hit churches, schools and homes," he said.

The rebels told the Indigenous Guards they had no reason to worry — that they did not plan to fire in the direction of the town and instead were going to strike an armored military column and troops trying to reinforce government forces in Toribio. The rebels then asked the Indigenous Guards to depart, Vitonas said.

The guards have had a few such encounters in the past week, and Vitonas said he believes the constant reminders that the Indians oppose the attacks helps minimize them.

"They respect us and allow us to talk with them," Vitonas said.

"They have not shot us," he added dryly.

Sunday was the last day a rebel missile hit the town. Since then, the guerrillas have been battling government forces in the surrounding countryside.

Markos Yule, a 45-year-old tribal elder, said peaceful confrontation successfully kept right-wing paramilitary gunmen out of Toribio a few years ago. He said hundreds of indigenous residents set up roadblocks outside the town when the outlawed anti-guerrilla forces tried to take the area.

"Without using any weapons, we successfully kept the paramilitaries from ever getting to Toribio," Yule said.

The 150,000-member tribe has not always opted for peaceful solutions.

In the mid-1980s, members of the Nasa tribe formed the Quintin Lame, an armed resistance group that was closely linked to the defunct leftist M-19 rebel outfit. The group existed for nearly a decade until leaders such as Yule disbanded it.

"We realized that the Quintin Lame was creating more problems that it was solving," Yule said.

Now, many Nasa Indians don't even want the military or police in town.

Yule says the FARC attacks are largely the result of a concrete police bunker built off the town's main square. He said it should be removed, adding, "We can control the illegal groups much better using our own methods."

Maj. Alvaro Moya, commander of army operations in the region, said five armored vehicles that began rolling toward Toribio on Wednesday encountered heavy rebel resistance and took a detour. He said 15 rebels were killed in fighting since Wednesday and that he has no reports of fresh casualties among government forces.

The armored column was six miles from Toribio, but it was unclear when it might arrive.

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vladimiro says on Apr 22, 2005, 11:29:

We already know guerilla can bog down modern armies "OK, I am not a military strategist but if the FARC has 500 guerillas there, how come the army doesn't come in with a vastly superior force, surround them, and then annilate them? Especially with a lot of air support? "

The FARC often attack when there is heavy cloud cover making aerial bombing impossible. This is the case in Toribio. COlombia's planes are useless at the moment. They take strategic positions, like well covered hills and montains dominating the routes into the area, which give them an advantage over the Colombian military. Colombia has brought in tanks but the guerilla has demobilzed the tanks and halted their advance into the area. As has been proven in Iraq a guerilla can take out tanks because tanks are built to fight set piece battles against other tanks and artillery so they are heavily armored in the front but have a weak under belly in the back - well aimed rocket propelled granade attacks are wiping out US tanks at increasing rates: over 80 or so tanks ( though this is not mentioned by the US press which continues to hint "mission accomplished" its significant because it was when Osama bin Laden and gang similarly figured out how to knock out Russian tanks that Russia was forced quit Afghanistan ). Alfredo Rangel comments on FARC's new military tactics in today's El Tiempo in the article: El Ejercito no pudo llegar a Toribio.

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kernow62 says on Apr 22, 2005, 11:52:

I am not sure id a RPG can knockout a US battle tank unless a really lucky hit. I believe they now use the British "Chobham armour" like the British Challenger tank and can take direct hits from most current rounds at point blank range.

http://encyclopedia.lockergnome.com/s/b/Chobham_armour

Perhaps you were thinking of armoured personel carriers and the like.

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kernow62 says on Apr 22, 2005, 11:57:

Vladimiro I think it was the US supplied technology and more importantly the support the US provided to Osama bin Laden and his cohorts that defeated the Russians or at least made them pack it in. The Taliban have the US to thank for their power that oppressed the people of Afghanistan in the first place.

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vladimiro says on Apr 22, 2005, 11:57:

see the article below "The U.S. military's Abrams tank, designed during the Cold War to withstand the fiercest blows from the best Soviet tanks, is getting knocked out at surprising rates by the low-tech bombs and rocket-propelled grenades of Iraqi insurgents"

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2005-03-29-abrams-tank-a_x.htm

I agree about afghan, such as supplying SAMs to Osama ( btw US is the only country to supply such high-tech weapons to its guerilla/terrorist groups, yet they are the ones ironically that claim other countries might endanger civilization by doing such a irresponsible, reckless thing as to give SAMs to terrorists:)

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Lionheart says on Apr 22, 2005, 16:26:

next update: Colombia Rebels Attack Indian Village Colombia Rebels Attack Indian Village

2 hours, 54 minutes ago World - AP Latin America

By DAN MOLINSKI, Associated Press Writer

TACUEYO, Colombia - Rebels bombarded another Indian village Friday, expanding an offensive that already has government troops stretched thin in this rugged Andean region of southwest Colombia.

Top military commanders huddled in an emergency meeting in the capital to determine how to confront the rebels' boldest challenge since President Alvaro Uribe was elected three years ago on pledges he would crush the 40-year-old insurgency.

With the latest attack, the clashes have spread across a 14-mile-long strip along the western face of the Central Cordillera of the Andes, some 250 miles southwest of Bogota.

The Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, hit the village of Jambalo with mortars and gunfire in combat that began overnight and ended at dawn, said Gersain Cuetia, who works in the tribal government offices there.

Cuetia said in a telephone interview that two houses were destroyed in the attack but that no casualties were reported. Police, army troops and an AC-47 gunship airplane repelled the attack, said Maj. Victoria Alba Rodriguez of the army's Third Brigade.

In the village of Tacueyo, 15 miles to the south, heavily armed rebels casually waited to confront an armored military column that had stopped in its tracks, many of its tires flattened by rebel gunfire, just 10 minutes away.

Caliche, the FARC commander in the rebel-controlled town, leisurely finished a breakfast of corn bread and a hot drink in this village of humble adobe homes, and said the Colombian military's plans to retake control will fail.

While Caliche — who did not give his surname — spoke to a reporter, rebels nearby heaped gunpowder onto a tarp to dry it under the sun after the previous night's rain. One rebel, his cap covering his face, took a morning siesta on a porch, 20 mortar tubes scattered around him. Other rebels drove on this village's single street in new SUVs.

"What's the rush?" said the military convoy's commander, Col. Juan Vicente Torrijos, when an Associated Press reporter asked when he would begin the assault on the rebels in Tacueyo.

The rebels appear to be hitting government forces with ease since they attacked the nearby town of Toribio on April 14 and again on April 17, killing at least five counterinsurgency police officers, two soldiers and a 9-year-old boy.

For the first time in years, the rebels have not melted into the jungles in the face of government forces but have stood their ground, laying siege to Toribio and attacking the armored column that was sent to relieve troops and police there.

Under stiff rebel resistance, the column of armored fighting vehicles that began rolling to Toribio on Wednesday diverted to Tacueyo, six miles to the northeast, to attack the rebels holed up here.

Casualty statistics from all the fighting varied wildly, depending on which side was talking.

Caliche said that in the past eight days, rebels have killed 20 government soldiers and wounded 30. Five rebels were wounded and none has been killed, he added.

Torrijos said 15 rebels have been killed and one army soldier was wounded, from shrapnel. There have been no deaths among government troops since the attacks on Toribio, he said. It was impossible to immediately reconcile the conflicting figures.

The Third Brigade, based in Cali, the nearest city, said it would not release casualty figures until the operations were completed.

AP reporter Juan Pablo Toro contributed to this report from Bogota.

***********************************
Sounds like a change of rebel tactics here ... or just feeling cheeky?

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platano says on Apr 22, 2005, 16:38:

I believe Platano predicted this one month ago... in a March 23, 2005 post titled: FARC has been in tactical retreat while regrouping:
Tactical Retreat

This news appears to support the idea that the tactical retreat is over and the FARC won't be waiting out the Uribe administration.

Mr. Hollywood responded to Platano on March 23:
"Personally, I think the "strategic retreat" line is largely bullshit. Sure, the FARC is contemplating the possibility that they may have to wait out the Uribe administration slapping mosquitos and picking ticks off their balls out in the jungle, but it's not some glamorous and brilliant strategy. Platano, I appreciate your POV and like your sense of humor but I sense that you might be suffering from a bit of Stockholm syndrome about your former kidnappers."

This change in tactics and may signal an end to the tactical retreat. Maybe they got tired of attending to the mosquitos and picking at their private parts?

Platano
Oxigeno Verde

plátano

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kernow62 says on Apr 22, 2005, 19:35:

Vladimiro, thanks for the link, it is amazing that they are getting knocked out by RPGs. However I think the crews are mostly surviving and the tanks are being rebuilt, so there is a difference of semantics, knocked out in my book is when it gets totally destroyed. Knocking a tank track off and then hitting the engien with RPGs is another thing.

I believe there has only been one Challenger loss and that being an unfortunate hit by another Challenger's mighty 120mm gun. If I had to be in Iraq put me in a Challenger, they even have tea making facilities inside for the crew! I saw a documentary where a Challenger had been de-tracked and was getting hammered by RPGs for 6 hours, the crew reported nothing more than a bit of noise and after a while settled down and had a cuppa, they even took a shoulder fired missle hit.

The really scary thing is the depleted uranium in the armour of some tanks and in the rounds used. Lots of deformed babies will be born to returning servicemen as well as to the Iraqis. There will be a sharp increase in cancer rates too. After the first Gulf War, cancer rates skyrocketed in Iraq.

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platano says on Apr 22, 2005, 19:40:

kernow62, Yeah, unfortunately you are right about the depleted uranium and cancer. Yet another form of "collateral damage" and the gringos are victims of their own government. The whole organized violence/war thing makes me sad.

Platano
Oxigeno Verde

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on Apr 22, 2005, 21:48:

If it weren't for the grim reality that people are getting killed, the whole thing would be laughable. I can just see the Colombian army's military convoy sitting there with flattened tires while the FARC are chuckling.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Sr Tertius says on Apr 23, 2005, 03:16:

UC I know what you mean: every time I hear of a setback of the US military in Iraq, I can't stop cracking myself up.

"El que a hierro mata..."

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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juanalejo says on Apr 23, 2005, 08:27:

I agree, when you see the joke of Army that has been deployed in Iraq and how "easy" it has been for them to control the situation with the daily bombings etc. I then think well if those are the guys that are training the Colombian Army then what can we expect. And then obviously take into account the unlimited funds in Iraq and the very limited funds in Colombia. Well there is the answer. It kind of reminds me of Vietnam and how "easy" it was back then.

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platano says on Apr 23, 2005, 08:55:

Juanalejo, if Colombia goes the way of Vietnam.... Many more people will die in Colombia before Uribe gets onto the helicopter on the roof of the American embassy in Bogotá to go live a life of ease in the USA (or elsewhere).

But it does look like the guerrillas are taunting and ridiculing Uribe and daring the official forces to come out of the cities. In another article I read when the journalist asked the Colombian Army officer why they weren't on the move in pursuit of the guerrillas he answered, "What's the rush?" Which goes back to something Plátano has said before: there seems to be a lack of political will to execute the war. And Uribe has not fulfilled his campiagn promise to exterminate the guerrillas with a "mano dura" in spite of overwhelming cooperation and financial support from other parts of the world. Looks like the business is just too good for both sides to be seriously threatened. Boys will be boys, but it's a shame they are messing with the civilian population so much.

Platano, banana military commentator who has zero military experience
Oxigeno Verde

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on Apr 23, 2005, 23:04:

I think most Americans would agree that we have no business being in Iraq (or Colombia for that matter). The US Army can leave Iraq and go home to a relatively peaceful America, at least my part of it. Can the Colombian army do that? No, wait, this is supposed to be their country....guess not. A better analogy would be the US Civil War where the Northern States actually had the will to subdue the Southern States in their fight against Yankee imperialism.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Lionheart says on Apr 24, 2005, 00:28:

Update: Colombian Helicopters Attack Insurgents Colombian Helicopters Attack Insurgents

Sat Apr 23, 9:21 PM ET World - AP Latin America

By DAN MOLINSKI, Associated Press Writer

TACUEYO, Colombia - A pair of Colombian military helicopter gunships struck at guerrilla positions in the mountains above this rebel-held town Saturday as the government tried to take control of the region amid stubborn rebel resistance.

A rebel offensive along at least a 14-mile front shows the insurgents feel confident enough — for the first time in more than five years — to stand their ground and confront government forces, instead of carrying out hit-and-run attacks.

Army officials said the Black Hawk helicopters flew to the area on a reconnaissance mission as a column of armored army vehicles waited on a road nearby. Members of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, fired on the choppers with Kalashnikov assault rifles and machine guns, Army Maj. Alvaro Moya said.

A team of Associated Press journalists witnessed the battle along with residents of Tacueyo, an Indian village in southwest Colombia that the rebels have controlled for years. The fighting occurred no more than 800 yards outside the village of adobe homes.

Also Saturday, the army battled FARC rebels in a rural area 55 miles south of Tacueyo, killing two guerrillas and capturing 17, said Maj. Victoria Alba Rodriguez of the army's Third Brigade. The account could not be independently confirmed.

In the fighting just outside Tacueyo, the helicopters were not hit with rebel gunfire, said Moya, adding that it was impossible to know whether guerrillas were injured. Guerrilla commanders were not available to comment on possible rebel casualties.

In previous Colombian military incursions, FARC rebels have temporarily retreated into the jungle. But this time, they say they plan to defend their positions in this village, where dozens of walls are painted with graffiti calling President Alvaro Uribe a "fascist."

Bernardo Penalosa, a FARC soldier watching the battle from the Tacueyo's main plaza along with concerned residents, said the air assault would not diminish the rebels' resolve.

The FARC on Apr. 14 attacked the nearby town of Toribio with homemade bombs and gunfire, destroying 19 homes and stores, and killing three police officers and a young boy.

The rebels said the attack was a message to the government that it will not accept the presence of police or military forces in town centers. Two years ago, a large police bunker was built near Toribio's main square.

In Tacueyo, shop owner Jaime Rivera said he hopes the FARC stands its ground.

"If the army enters, then we will be bombed (by the rebels) just like Toribio," he said while the rattle of machine-gun fire echoed off the adobe walls of his convenience store.

The clashes represent the rebels' boldest challenge since Uribe was elected three years ago on pledges to crush the 40-year-old insurgency. Uribe is barred from running for re-election, but Congress is debating a bill that would allow him to run for successive terms.

More than 3,000 people are killed each year in the conflict, which also includes right-wing paramilitary groups set up to counter the Marxists. Those groups have also been accused of drug trafficking and other crimes.

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Lionheart says on Apr 25, 2005, 02:50:

ongoing: Colombia Commanders Fly Into Combat Zone Colombia Commanders Fly Into Combat Zone

Sun Apr 24,11:29 PM ET World - AP Latin America

By DAN MOLINSKI, Associated Press Writer

TORIBIO, Colombia - Colombia's top military leaders on Sunday toured this mountainous region in southwest Colombia to oversee government forces struggling to retake control of the area from Marxist rebels.

"The situation is being brought under control," Gen. Carlos Alberto Ospina, the armed forces commander, insisted after flying into the village of Palo, close to the front lines. "Naturally, these bandits have sown mine fields and there are some snipers, so we still have to move carefully," he told RCN television.

But further down the valley in rebel-controlled Tacueyo, Ricardo, a spokesman for the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, told The Associated Press on Sunday that the rebels had forced an armored military column to retreat during clashes several miles outside the village in the past 24 hours.

"They were trying to make it up the hill, but we are holding our ground," said Ricardo, who refused to give his surname. He reported five wounded among the FARC's ranks.

The Army's 3rd Brigade, however, said six rebels had been killed and another 17 captured in the latest fighting near Tacueyo, some 190 miles southwest of Bogota. The conflicting accounts could not immediately be reconciled.

The clashes came amid a rebel offensive that started April 14 with the bombardment of nearby Toribio and quickly spread along at least a 14-mile front. It was the first time in years that the FARC has fought pitched battles against government forces, instead of simply carrying out hit-and-run attacks.

In Tacueyo itself, life continued as normal Sunday. A couple of camouflage-clad female FARC guerrillas, some wearing makeup, strolled through the market shopping for underwear.

But in Toribio — where at least 19 homes and stores were destroyed in the initial FARC attack — the mayor feared that Ospina's arrival at the front signaled a wider government offensive that could lay ruin to his village.

Arquimedes Vitonas said he hoped the heavily armored vehicles the military was trying to bring up never reach his town, where they would likely draw heavy rebel fire.

The clashes that have occurred along the western face of the Central Cordillera of the Andes Mountains represent the rebels' boldest challenge since Uribe was elected three years ago on pledges he would crush the 40-year-old insurgency.

The rebels said the attack was a message to the government that it will not accept the presence of police or military forces in town centers. Two years ago, a large police bunker was built near Toribio's main square.

Colombia's army chief, Gen. Reinaldo Castellanos, who toured the zone with Ospina on Sunday, vowed to restore state authority. "We are ready ... to flush them (the FARC) out of here," he said.

Since the start of the rebel offensive, the military has reported a total of five soldiers and three police officers killed. The rebels have denied any deaths in their ranks.

The FARC, created 40 years ago with the aim of overthrowing the government and bringing greater justice and opportunity to the poor, has instead been widely condemned because of its involvement in the drug trade and extortion rackets, and its reliance on frequent kidnappings.

More than 3,000 people are killed each year in the conflict.

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platano says on Apr 25, 2005, 07:14:

Lionheart, The story above starts out: "A pair of Colombian military helicopter gunships"

Does Colombia produce military helicopter gunships? Does Colombia buy military helicopter gunships?

Shouldn't the headline read: USA miliary helicopter gunships attack insurgents"?

Platano
Oxigeno Verde
Foto de Platanito chinito

plátano

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Mr. Hollywood says on Apr 25, 2005, 10:07:

I don't get it? Platano, the Colombian military has a lot of helicopters. Why should they be called US helicopters?

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Hunter says on Apr 25, 2005, 10:54:

platano Because platano doesn't support plan Colombia and will find some way to complain against the US.

Hunter

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platano says on Apr 25, 2005, 14:03:

Let me try to explain my puzzlement, Colombia produces coffee.
The USA does not produce Colombian coffee.
Colombia sells the coffee to USA.
USA uses the coffee (Starbucks, etc.)
It is called Colombian coffee.

USA produces Blackhawk helicopter gunships.
Colombia does not produce Blackhawk helicopter gunships.
USA sells the helicopters to Colombia.
Colombia uses the gunships.
They are called "Colombian helicopter gunships"

What am I missing here?

Colombia produces good coffee and it is called Colombian coffee, even in the USA.
USA makes good helicopter gunships and they are called Colombian in Colombia?

Nobody else in the world makes finer helicopter gunships than the USA Blackhawk.
They are AMERICAN helicopter gunships.
Why are they called Colombian?

Isn't the article not being factual when it says "Colombian helicopter gunships"?

Platano
Oxigeno Verde
Foto de Platanito chinito

plátano

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Mr. Hollywood says on Apr 25, 2005, 14:27:

This is why: Boeing, an American company, builds 747s and sells them all over the globe. When a Korean Air 747 crashes, the news reports that a "Korean 747 crashed today." When British airways loses one it's called a "British 747."

Everybody knows that Korea and the UK don't build 747s. But they own them, operate them and sometimes crash them. Calling it, an American 747 would just be stupid, since that's not the relevant info people need.

Likewise, Colombia produces plenty of conflict, and sometimes tries to settle it with helicopters. Colombian helicopters.

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BlondeJamesBond says on Apr 25, 2005, 15:39:

Pedantic Platano Perhaps this would have been a better headline for you.

"A helicopter, bought by Colombia, operated by Colombia and full of Colombians but built in America (who may well have sourced many of the parts and materials from numerous countries around the world including possibly Colombia), attacked Colombian insurgents in Colombia - It is thought the gunship crew were drinking Colombian coffee out of cups made in China before the attack"

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platano says on Apr 25, 2005, 17:01:

Bought by Colombia? "...the almost $3 billion in U.S. military aid for Colombia over the past six years never left the United States—it went directly to the U.S. companies that built the helicopters and weapons sent to Colombia." April 4, 2005 Colombia Journal Online

Colombia didn't buy them, did not assemble them, can't supply them with spare parts, and can't operate them without special training. But I suppose technically they "own" them because they agreed to receive them.

"Hugo Chavez's buys 100,000 AK47 rifles from Russia"
Are these now Venezuelan AK47 rifles?

"Chile has ordered six U.S.-made F16 fighter jets"
These are now Chilean F16 fighter jets?

"Chile has ordered two French-made Scorpene attack submarines"
These are now Chilean Scorpene attack submarines?

"shot with an AK47 Kalashnikov rifle"
Since the owner was British this should have said "a British AK47 Kalashnikov rifle"???

"examined a cache of Russian-made weapons"
Shouldn't this say "a cache of FARC weapons" since FARC did pay for them and owns them?

Sorry for being so pedantic! I was just trying to clarify this question in my mind.

If you all say these are Colombian Blackhawk helicopter gunships (that Colombia did not produce, Colombia did not assemble, and Colombia did not buy), then I will just have to go along with the mainstream sentiment here.

Platano
Oxigeno Verde
Foto de Platanito chinito

plátano

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dwmte says on Apr 25, 2005, 17:32:

it's a bit of an aside, friend.... but in my 'youth' when i got high in los angeles, it was with colombian coke. even though i bought it and consumed/owned it here in the u.s.

ever hear anybody talk about american blow?

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dwmte says on Apr 25, 2005, 17:32:

it's a bit of an aside, friend.... but in my 'youth' when i got high in los angeles, it was with colombian coke. even though i bought it and consumed/owned it here in the u.s.

ever hear anybody talk about american blow?

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Mr. Hollywood says on Apr 25, 2005, 19:25:

Fried green bananas plantano, one of your personalities is skipping like a scratched record. Whack yourself in the forehead with a tennis shoe and you'll be fine by morning.

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platano says on Apr 25, 2005, 20:23:

That will do fine, Mr. Hollywood, As an admission of your defeat!

:)

Platano
Oxigeno Verde
Foto de Platanito chinito

plátano

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