FARC would free two captured policemen after elections

Miguel_Clavo says on Mar 5, 2006, 18:57:

Obviously FARC ("Mutant Marxists") is trying.. to emphasis the point that they are not willing to negotiate with Uribe,(who will extradite FARC leaders and who is a real pain in their collective asses) but they will negotiate with his political opponents.(who are probably "clean" political puppets who will bend over for FARC) ...whats the tally? +/- 450 kidnap victims?...2 out of +/- 450 is not bad, huh? maybe they will start donating some of their hard earned drug and blood money to that little girl's funeral?....hmmmm....cold day in hell!

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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platano says on Mar 5, 2006, 19:11:

Hello? juancegomez wrote: "They say that it is a result of the meeting that presidential candidate Alvaro Leyva had with "Tirofijo"

Hello? How is it that the press can find Tirofijo, presidential candidates can find Tirofijo, the freakin' head of the Wall Street Stock Market can find Tirofijo... and Uribe can't send some crack Delta Force types to assassinate the bastard? Lack of political will? Both sides gaining too much from the ongoing businesses involved in the "civil conflict"?

BFD, FARC is talking about releasing two policemen? They got hundreds of hostages! The Colombian government-- with the help of sophisticated USA satellite surveillance-- has to know where the FARC bastards are keeping all those soldiers, politicians, and police in the jungle. There just is no political will to end the game.

Is Uribe "a real pain in their collective asses" .... don't make me laugh! FARC pretty much attacks at will and they literally get away with murder.

plátano

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poco says on Mar 5, 2006, 19:36:

Who fault is it now? Hello? How is it that the press can find Tirofijo, presidential candidates can find Tirofijo, the freakin' head of the Wall Street Stock Market can find Tirofijo... and Uribe can't send some crack Delta Force types to assassinate the bastard? Lack of political will? Both sides gaining too much from the ongoing businesses involved in the "civil conflict"?

The Delta force has been gone from Colombia for what, 10 plus years. Satellite surveillance,, pretty good but we can't see through trees. However that is one item that is causing them problems. Colombia is a big place. I suppose you feel better if Colombia and the U.S. issued the FARC details about time, resolution and countermeasures,, via: the media of course.

Your concern about the evil FARC is touching. Have you gotten mad at them? What,, FARC holding Ingrid troublesome? Advocating violence against people with websites and this FARC rant,, while throwing in a few shots against the U.S. and intimating people could “fix” the problem but won’t because they are stuffing their pockets with money.

Get a grip,, paranoia can cloud your judgment. U.S. troops do not assassinate people,, as you probably know, that is why Colombia and U.S. forces couldn't locate Pablo Escobar,, but PEPE had no problem.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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Miguel_Clavo says on Mar 5, 2006, 19:58:

Sr Platano....por favor..... if FARC refuses to negotiate with Uribe, but will with other political opponents tells me that they dont have Uribe on their Christmas card list...but i wonder what presents FARC will have for their chosen Uribe opponents next Christmas.....


Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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platano says on Mar 5, 2006, 20:00:

Poco, are you some kind of pacifist wuss? I said "Delta Force types" not Delta Force. Or does the Colombian Army not have any such forces after years of training and billions of dollars of USA aid?

Are you saying jungle canopy represents an intractable problem for the the world's largest military power? Gimme a break!

"U.S. troops do not assassinate people" !!!! Are you serious? Does the word "neutralization" ring a bell? That's what special forces are all about: guns, knives, bare hands, you name it... you have to kill them before they kill you.

Israel trains US assassination squads in Iraq. The Israeli Defence Force (IDF) has sent urban warfare specialists to Fort Bragg in North Carolina, the home of US special forces. US special forces teams are already behind the lines inside Syria attempting to kill foreign jihadists before they cross the border, and a group focused on the "neutralisation" of guerrilla leaders is being set up, according to sources familiar with the operations.

"This is basically an assassination programme. That is what is being conceptualised here. This is a hunter-killer team," said a former senior US intelligence official. The new counter-insurgency unit made up of elite troops being put together in the Pentagon is called Task Force 121, New Yorker magazine reported.

If they can do it in other parts of the world, why not in Colombia? Why not eliminate the FARC? Bush keeps saying it is a worldwide war on terrorism, attacking terrrorists on every front. "They can run, but they can't hide" doesn't apply to FARC? Are you saying FARC can hide because they have green leaves? LOL!

FARC has been labeled a terrorist organization and in Bush's world that means they can "legitimately" be annihiliated... if there existed political will.

plátano

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platano says on Mar 5, 2006, 20:35:

Miguel_Clavo.... you ask: "but i wonder what presents FARC will have for their chosen Uribe opponents next Christmas....."

I have no idea... but whatever it is, if it is a gift from the FARC it will not be good... it will only create more misery, more suffering, more hatred, and more "ganas de venganza"

plátano

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platano says on Mar 5, 2006, 21:20:

Poco, it wasn't PEPE that got to Pablo Escobar ... It was USA surveillance that got Escobar killed. If they could do it back then, with primitive technology... what excuse is there for not eliminating FARC now? War is good business. They don't want to ruin the game... no political will.

KILLING THE COCAINE KING - COUNTDOWN TIMELINE
Escobar met his demise in a gun battle on the rooftop of one of his hideouts. His wife and children were the bait. His whereabouts where traced from his cell phone during a call in which Escobar protested at the treatment of his wife and kids.
.....
14:11 Airborne US surveillance pinpoints Escobar’s location to a 600m radius in Medellín. The Search Bloc moves into the area...
........
So what's the holdup on wiping out a few thousand FARC "insurgents" in the jungle? It is simply not top priority. Punto.

plátano

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poco says on Mar 5, 2006, 21:32:

Green stuff is a problem Are you saying jungle canopy represents an intractable problem for the the world's largest military power? Gimme a break!

Yes, that is what I’m saying. They also can’t see inside buildings or underground. Real time is almost impossible in the best of conditions. A golf ball can be seen clearly from space but there are several problems, resolution, atmospheric dust, clouds etc.

Partial clip from Satellite Images

A satellite can only see a relatively small area at a time. For this reason mapping a large area (or the whole Earth) takes a lot of time and most satellite images are on average several years old. Because imaging satellites are in low Earth orbits, real-time imaging of a certain area is complicated. However, spy satellites can do this during wars and other military operations or to provide data for intelligence agencies. Still, the troops frequently find out that the ground truth is different from the images that were taken some time ago.

The image resolution of satellite images varies. For most cities in the world photos with resolution of 10 meters or better are available. For areas outside cities the resolution can be 100-500 meters. Most of the Earth is imaged with resolution of 1 km or better. For many smaller areas images with resolution as high as 10 cm can be available. Satellite imagery is supplemented with aerial photography, which has higher resolution, but is more expensive per square meter.

The United States may have other detection methods like FLIR but they aren’t saying.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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platano says on Mar 5, 2006, 21:42:

Hello? Poco? My question was: "Are you saying jungle canopy represents an intractable problem for the the world's largest military power?"

Your answer: "A satellite can only see... "

Think outside the box. Surveillance is not only visual.

Anyone holding 450 Colombian citizens and providing them with... oh, what the hell... so little imagination... so little will. THE PROBLEM IS NOT INTRACTABLE. If there was any real commitment to eliminate the FARC, it could be done by the 20 de julio celebrations. There aren't that many of the murdering, lying, kidnapping bastards.

I own a house in Cauca, and it is in a fairly isolated region, for example there is no phone service, no Telecom, no paved roads, etc. My neighbors have told me stories about spotting FARC regulars and calling (with cell phones) the Colombian Army to alert them. The Army arrived... two weeks later. You talk about paranoia and my judgement being clouded. I am talking from my experience and what I have witnessed is a lack of will to fight. When you have whole companies of soldiers finding a FARC "escondite", "repartiendo la marrana" and abandoning the country... what does that say to you about the will to fight?

plátano

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poco says on Mar 5, 2006, 22:00:

Only with a LOT of killing Colombia calls the shots. I can well imagine the "stink" if, Heaven forbid, we directly helped with troops and equipment.

I expect the FRAC at this very minute would throw poor Ingrid in front of a bullet if they had the chance. What if this was a U.S. operation. Botero would swing into overtime and this time it wouldn't be pink panties on someones head.

Do NOT think the FARC is so stupid to have 450 Hostages in a single or even several locations.

The hostages are scattered, I’m sure you know that there are huge areas of Colombia that NO ONE enters unless they have permission and the government is NOT who gives the permission. Are you so naive as to believe the Hostages are sunning on a patio somewhere, enjoying themselves for weeks at a time?

Colombia is twice as big as France and I doubt if a THIRD of Colombia’s total land territory is under government control.

PS: Read the link,,,
When you have whole companies of soldiers finding a FARC "escondite", "repartiendo la marrana" and abandoning the country... what does that say to you about the will to fight?

Do you have something about this three year old incident that I haven't read? What make you think finding a cache of money and wanting to keep it has anything to do with a willingness to do their job, or is it wishful thinking?

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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platano says on Mar 5, 2006, 22:09:

OK, Poco, if that's the way you want it.... It's such a terrible problem... 13,000 dissidents can hold an entire country hostage... because Colombia is a BIG country.

I have a can-do attitude. I am an American... I don't accept excuses... I want results... NOW! But if the prevailing attitude and excuses resemble anything like yours... then, I wouldn't be surprised if FARC eventually wins the "civil conflict" and takes power. They evidently already have power in "huge areas of Colombia that NO ONE enters unless they have permission" (a statement which I do not accept since I have traveled rural Colombia extensively without getting "permission" from FARC)

Where are you living anyway, that you have escaped naievte?

I am enjoying this Poco! You are making my points for me! This one really had me laughing:

"What make you think finding a cache of money and wanting to keep it has anything to do with a willingness to do their job"

Uhhh... maybe the fact that they emigrated from Colombia with the money... for Venezuela, Ecuador, and Peru instead of honoring their oath to serve Colombia? Do you understand the difference between "oath to serve" and "take the money and run"?

plátano

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poco says on Mar 5, 2006, 23:31:

You are not being truthful
The pacifist / liberal / negotiation vision of how to get things “fixed” has been a failure for 50 years. The Colombians are no better off and have fallen behind the rest of the world. The proof over the last 3 years that a strong government has worked to improve peoples lives must be having an adverse effect on your thinking.

I have a can-do attitude. I am an American... I don't accept excuses... I want results... NOW!

Political entities been using the military for something other than destroying things, killing people and finishing the tasks they were sent to do and now we live with these poor decisions.

You had such good luck traveling around Colombia then why all the problems? Why not go back to Colombia? Personally I think you were causing problems for someone.

I know you don’t like to furnish links,, they might say something you can’t edit or clip to suit your analysis. Please furnish the information concerning the outcome of the soldiers that found the money.

The spoils of war What a shame.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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PennilessBliss says on Mar 6, 2006, 04:01:

A matter of perspective The conflict in Colombia seems to go beyond a lack of will or opportunity. The Colombian Armed Forces have evidenced their will to actively combat and defeat the insurgents. Several large scale military operations have taken place in the last 3 years that speak of Uribe's "Mano Fuerte" policy. In fact, attempts were made in rescuing hostages shortly after the kidnappings took place. These met with unprecedented success until the tragic death of Consuelo Araujo in one such undertaking. AFAIK the bad press caused by the incident brought about a more conservative approach when hostages were involved. On the other hand, the industrial and political opportunism that arises from an ongoing military confrontation can be a powerful deterrent to a full-scale victory. War profiteering is as old as war itself. I happen to be acquainted with a Colombian industrial (footwear manufacturer) who has capitalized immensely on his contracts with the military. I assume there are many others in the same boat. I believe there are other contributing factors as well. Maintaining a certain political climate would prove benefecial for many who have the means to warrant it all stays the same. To sum it up, it's beyond neglect (or lack of will) per se. IMHO the Colombian conflict surpasses the wherewithal or the inclination to end it.



BTW, I'm sure everyone noticed the contrasting terms used in referring to the policemen. The press release uses "kidnapped" while FARC's statement resorts to "prisoners of war". A bit of rhetoric to spice up the whole "humantarian exchange" vs. "negotiating with terrorists" debate.

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PennilessBliss says on Mar 6, 2006, 05:10:

Speaking of wordiness... Platano How does one enroll in this School of Headline Writing that I keep reading about?

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platano says on Mar 6, 2006, 07:49:

Poco, here is the link... http://www.rcn.com.co/noticia.php3?nt=12773

143 military charged. The rest must have gotten away.

plátano

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platano says on Mar 6, 2006, 07:52:

PennilessBliss, The Platano School of Headline Writing was invented by one of the moderators, Tinto. (He wipes out entire threads he doesn't like). Tinto was criticizing what he considered biased headlines. I liked the name so I ran with it.

Classes have been suspended temporarily while charges of intellectual dishonesty are investigated. The charges were brought by Poco.

However, there is an online reading list. If you wish, you may begin reading and be ready when classes resume.

Here is the link to the reading list: http://www.bartleby.com/reference/

plátano

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juancegomez says on Mar 6, 2006, 09:12:

Forgive me if I skip most of the current discussion... ...and focus on one thing, for the most part...

platano:

"Hello? How is it that the press can find Tirofijo, presidential candidates can find Tirofijo, the freakin' head of the Wall Street Stock Market can find Tirofijo... and Uribe can't send some crack Delta Force types to assassinate the bastard? Lack of political will? Both sides gaining too much from the ongoing businesses involved in the "civil conflict"?"

1. The press didn't "find Tirofijo". Though it is true that they have often found Mr. "Raul Reyes", who tends to hang out in Putumayo, around the Ecuadorian border.

2. Alvaro Leyva reportedly had to travel through air, land and sea, literally, in order to go meet Tirofijo. Besides that, the FARC trusts him, because he has been interacting with them since about 1983. Which means that he isn't exactly in the most accesible of locations, to say the least.

3. The Head of WS met Tirofijo and his "merry men" during the Caguán negotiations. Enough said.

"The Colombian government-- with the help of sophisticated USA satellite surveillance-- has to know where the FARC bastards are keeping all those soldiers, politicians, and police in the jungle. There just is no political will to end the game."

Apparently you don't seem to know about both the limitations and capabilities of such technology. If it were such an easy thing...then the U.S. would have found Mr. Bin Laden years ago. I'm not an expert on that either, but I'm not the one making such claims.

"Is Uribe "a real pain in their collective asses" .... don't make me laugh! FARC pretty much attacks at will and they literally get away with murder."

For the most part, perhaps, but even they are not immune to pressure, just highly resistant to it.

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PennilessBliss says on Mar 6, 2006, 11:05:

Oh, that list... I've read it twice this week Since it's a bit difficult to catch those slight nuances that make verbal communication so rich while reading a block of internet text, I still haven't figured out the tone behind that line. For the sake of good-humored dialectic I'm hoping my current interpretation is accurate (hopefully the same amicable reading applies to my comments). Next time I'll make sure to add the universal ":)".


;)

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PennilessBliss says on Mar 6, 2006, 11:55:

"Electoral Merchandise" Uribe was not too happy either. Today's El Tiempo registered his irate reaction to what he labels as "totally abusive" trafficking in hostages. He went on to say that FARC is endeavoring to "clean up" their terrorist actions by placing their captives behind a veil of political legitimacy.

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platano says on Mar 6, 2006, 12:21:

PennilessBliss, I agree with your comments (y por ende con Uribe). Not only is it inhuman to traffic on human emotions and play with human lives... they can't "clean up" their terrorist actions because the very act of kidnapping them and holding them against their will is a violation of international law which FARC claims to respect, though their actions demonstrate they are neither lawful, nor moral, nor respecters of truth.

I'll wait now for juancegomez to call me naive for making such a blanket statement about FARC. :) By the way the headline on this post is speculative, speaking of a possible future event... and I don't have a crystal ball, nor do I believe in psychic readings. Estoy jodido!

I hope none of my posts have offended... you are right, I should use the :) symbol to indicate amicability.

You have read that reading list twice? Would you be interested in a teaching position in the Platano School of Headline Writing? :) You are almost surely qualified.... even idiots and fools like me are qualified. :)

plátano

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juancegomez says on Mar 7, 2006, 16:08:

platano seems to have a pretty flexible sense of humor today... ...so I'll pass on this one, in order to keep you happy. :)

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