FARC website and its Swiss host!

bjorn says on Feb 26, 2006, 21:59:

freedom of expression Why should anyone want to trash this site, except those that are against the freedom of expression. Do you really think it is going to be peace in Colombia if we prevent FARC or any other group, illegal or not, to say their opinion?

Dialogue, not confrontation is the road to peace, although I believe it is correct to be firm against the terror act that FARC and other groups (not least the Autodefensas which is by far the worst human rights offender in Colombia) do against the Colombian people.

Bjorn

Bjorn

Miguel_Clavo says on Feb 26, 2006, 23:35:

Extremely misinformed...Que lastima!! Seriously, Sr. Bjorn, you have got to be kidding! You honestly think that what FARC does is just "freedom of expression", and all they are doing is just "expressing their opinion"???? In your obviously well-informed opinion, do you think that what FARC is doing is closer to a "dialogue" or "confrontation" means to an end? And how a person can really believe that the cause of FARC is actually ideological in this millenium, and not a perverse form of narco-terroristic capitalism? Forty years ago, maybe it was ideological...now it is just a narco-terroristic machine. And since when is a "firm" response (whatever THAT means?????) an appropriate one to narcoterrorism? To those who live in a sterile classroom enviroment and deal only in theories, "firm" is appropriate, but to those thousands of FARC victims (reality!, the words "expressing their opinion", "dialogue" are not likely to cross their minds......and to try to lessen the crimes of FARC somehow by directing the attention to the crimes of the paramilitaries doesnt fly either.....The website of FARC should should be "nuked" and not just trashed.....Good Intentions and Misinformation are a Recipe for Disaster........


Just my opinion,

Miguel_Clavo

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

litost says on Feb 27, 2006, 06:19:

Bjorn, your nordic idealism is touching... but how would you feel about those who killed your father and have held your mother kidnapped for years having their own pretty colorful website, where they can manipulate well intentioned but extremely naive foreigners such as yourself, and divert attention away from the simple fact that they are murderers, drug dealers and the worst human rights violators since the nazis???

jccg says on Feb 27, 2006, 07:49:

hahaha You just behave as terrorist! Don't you reallize that? do you really think that destroing every thing that say things you don't like will make the reality different? Go, kill everyone that think different! drop bombs in the hauses of free thinkers! and keep living in your magical world where those are evil and you are a hero!

May be I am an idealistic man, but the idea of destroy something because they say things I don't like, is awfoul to me. I am for free thinking, free speach and free will i.e. freedom, the real one, not the one of the imperium.

Do you really think children stop dying of hungry if nobody say so in loud voice?

Ok, be terrorist, make yourself a "hero"

This is just the true!!

jccg says on Feb 27, 2006, 07:58:

By the way.... Is there some goverment that allow it's citizens to attack a website that they do not like? A thought it was forbiden, even in the USA...( may be in Cuba they allow that, but I don't really think so)

This is just the true!!

poco says on Feb 27, 2006, 08:07:

One mans guerrilla is another’s freedom fighter the real one, not the one of the imperium.

I wondered how long this subject would remain in the Friendly Talk Zone.

It has been surprising to see the endless amount of meddling with Colombians social system by Europeans. The FARC website is another example.

Most have an agenda to advance while not directly advocating a perverted political entity such as the FARC. The FARC was originally the outlaw military force of the communist party formed 40 years ago with a goal to overthrow the government.

In December of 2005 there was this news item: fragment below:

Uribe last night accepted a proposal by an international commission comprising France, Switzerland and Spain to break a stalemate in talks with the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, known by its Spanish acronym, FARC. The president proposed an area about 180 miles (290 kilometers) south of the capital, Bogota, be demilitarized for a short period to host talks, Luis Carlos Restrepo, the government's peace envoy, said.

This is a similar to the failed attempt made by past Colombian administrations to give the FARC a “safe zone� the size of,, Switzerland to “expedite� negotiations. Yep,, for quite awhile the FARC had a similar zone, only much bigger. A zone they used to consolidate their forces and expand their sphere of influence to enable their drug, kidnapping and murder schemes.

Here we go again, Colombia will never learn you do not negotiate with terrorists. The FARC has been afforded every chance to “lay down their weapons� but this will NEVER work when their goal is to overthrow the government.

I wonder what Uribe thinks now when he sees the terror immediately escalate:

MORE Civilians Murdered

FARC protecting Cocaine and killing to do it

The FARC once again define “negotiate�.

"Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

Sr Tertius says on Feb 27, 2006, 18:23:

jccg Your [write generic category here] idealism and ignorance is as heartbreaking as misguided. Clearly, FARC has brainwashed you through their mind-boggling website. Or maybe you came across one of those Danish T-shirts: They stupify first, make you grow a beard like Alfonso Cano, and then you become a wholehearted FARC supported. All that in a snap of the fingers.

Yes, freedom of expression is good, but only if you think correctly. And to think correctly you have to argue on the basis of generic slogans, like "do not negotiate with terrorists." And patronize, a lot: Never say "I disagree...", demand "When will you understand..."; everyone else is "naive", but you "understand."

And remember: Context, history, reasoning, they are all your enemies. Any website defending them should be banned!! Better yet: NUKED (IN CAPS AND EXCLAMATION)!!!!!!!!!

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

Miguel_Clavo says on Feb 27, 2006, 18:50:

Can’t see the forest for the trees…..???? Sr JCCG,
I understand your enthusiasm to embrace the right to free speech and your eagerness to protect it at all costs, but I think that this line of reasoning is really shallow. There are many other rights that coexist in this world at the same time. These rights, as well as the right to free speech, also belong to the victims of FARC violence, especially the right to live a long life, not to be tortured, threatened, killed, maimed, and terrifed by the members of an opposing ideology such as FARC.

FARC advocates Marxist principles, in case you were not aware of that. What would happen to your precious right to freedom of speech under a Marxist government? Have you not learned anything from history? Do you honestly feel that with a FARC-led style of Marxist government you would have more freedom of speech? Or less freedom of speech?

And I am really impressed by your profound concern for the hungry children in the world….but just remember, dead children and adults don’t feel hunger! Your voice should be advocating the end of guerrilla warfare and civil war in Colombia, and not advocating a right to free speech, of which these victims have so little of.

Idealistic man? Head in the clouds? Cant see the forest because of the single tree in front of you that is blocking your view?....or are you really the Patron Saint of the Right to Free Speech? (Pardon my sarcasm...)

And you call us “terrorists� and accuse some of us of behaving as terrorists? Because we are opposed to a narco-terroristic NON-IDEOLOGICAL group of murderers using websites? To this I say that your “Good Intentions and Ignorance make for a Prescription for Disaster� And, by the way, these views don’t make us “Heroes�….the real heroes are the Colombian men and women fighting the FARC…and the victims of FARC.


Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

Sr Tertius says on Feb 27, 2006, 21:33:

"the worst human rights violators since the nazis???" I suppose that leaves out the Colombian government or the paramilitaries, not to mention succesive Soviet regimes, Cuba, China, the US, South Africa, some other African nations like Uganda, Central American nations like El Salvador, the Dominican Republic under Trujillo, Chile under Pinochet, Argentina under Videla, Paraguay under Stroessner, Indonesia under Suharto, the Philippines under Marcos, Hussein's Iraq, the Sha's Iran, Afghanistan... (in no particular order).

I'm sorry, but this seems to me like a classic case of "anger trumps facts." Pretty common in PBH, unfortunately.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

platano says on Feb 27, 2006, 22:58:

Is the Will of God on the side of the Colombian Army? "Combatiré con valor, coraje y ánimo sereno, y sin esperar más recompensa que la de saber que cumplo la voluntad de Dios, lograr la grandeza de mi Patria y la gloria de mi Ejército."
--Código de Honor, Ejercito Nacional de Colombia
http://www.ejercito.mil.co/index.php?idcategoria=30

Murder other human beings with "ánimo sereno"... how sick is that?

Why doesn't God support the Colombian Army and destroy the FARC? With God all things are possible, so does the Colombian soldier not believe sufficiently in God?

Or does God have a morbid, sadistic sense of humor, enjoying seeing Colombians kill each other? Where the hell is God anyway and why isn't She putting an end to this fratricidal nonsense being done (by the Colombian Army anyway) in Her name?

To paraphrase the original post:
...I cannot attack the domestic server of the Colombian Army, but some of you should be able to trash it safely... if it is the Will of God.

plátano

poco says on Feb 27, 2006, 23:11:

which god The one to which the danes alluded?

These are some really terrible cartoons. BTW: This is hard to find. They don't list with a Google search,, could it be those wussies are messing with the filters,, again.

Just Joking - it's only a cartoon

I like Muhammad speaking about the virgins.

"Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

juancegomez says on Feb 28, 2006, 08:54:

... platano:

Well, maybe God is an anarchist, which would explain quite a few things in human history...and I'm only half-joking.

platano says on Feb 28, 2006, 10:32:

juancegomez, Please do not perpetuate the stereotype which associates anarchism with violence.

Anarchism is a political theory that aims to create a society which is without political, economic or social hierarchies. Anarchists maintain that anarchy, the absence of rulers, is a viable form of social system and so work for the maximisation of individual liberty and social equality. They see the goals of liberty and equality as mutually self-supporting. SOURCE: What is anarchism? http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1931/secA1.html#seca11

Anarchism is in favor of mutual cooperation. Violence is antithetical to mutual cooperation. Anyone engaging in violence is not, by definition, a true anarchist.

Thank you.

plátano

jccg says on Feb 28, 2006, 12:10:

Dear Sr Tertius The deduction that anyone who do not agree with the fanatic behavior of "destroing anything that is not of our like" and do not support to keep quiet those that think different, are FARC supporters, is truly sad, shame on you (you usually do better than that)
"And remember: Context, history, reasoning, they are all your enemies."
You really belive so? (or I missunderstand you?)
I really do not think that considering the others point of view before take a desicion must be called ignorance, by the contrary, do not heard is what make ignorance.

This is just the true!!

jccg says on Feb 28, 2006, 12:22:

Miguel_Clavo "Do you honestly feel that with a FARC-led style of Marxist government you would have more freedom of speech?"
I insist, what make's you think that I would be a FARC-ep suporter?
Once again, I am a pacifist, I do not belive in war.
"Your voice should be advocating the end of guerrilla warfare and civil war in Colombia, and not advocating a right to free speech"
That is a pretty interesting sentence....
I advocate the end of social injustice, wich, of course, will mean the end of the civil war. If you kill any FARC member, a new guerrilla will come with time. Don you remember history? any imperium has ben destroied with time, any dictator has feel the unconformism of the people, no matter how cruel he has been to keep them quiet.

Please, try to undesrtand the real problem COlombia has beforoe suggesting a sulution to "the consecuences" of the problem

This is just the true!!

jccg says on Feb 28, 2006, 12:31:

poco (out of topic) Are those really the "horrible cartoons"? I remmember have read about the one of mahoma's hat been a bomb.

This is just the true!!

Miguel_Clavo says on Feb 28, 2006, 18:58:

Porfavor, Sr JCCG...........a mind is...... Sr JCCG…..a mind is…..

Great! What the world needs more of is self-proclaimed Pacifist defending the right of a narco-terrorist WAR machine in their right to promote their propaganda via a website…….And Yessss….. being a pacifist, you should be encouraging the end of violence in Colombia with at least the same enthusiasm as you pay homage to the right to free speech…still cant see the that forest for the tree in front of you….some people should try leaving the safety of theory and try slumming it in reality….might even open their eyes.. Defending FARCs right to a website to promote their cause under the protection of Free Speech seems to be pretty hypocritical in light of the fact that freedom of speech is not a reality in a Marxist society…and neither is it Free!….How many pacifists helped establish the principle of freedom of speech?

It seems to me that defending the use of website to promote their propaganda by a War organization utilizing violence, torture, rape, land mines, and the killing of innocent civilians makes you part of the problem, and not part of the solution. Pacifist and not a FARC supporter, huh? Good intentions, maybe, but an indirect supporter….

Advocating the end of social justice is honorable, but civil war will never cease until FARC realizes that the participation in the Colombian government will further their cause more than the violence, killing of innocent victims, rape, land mines, and other atrocities that are the signature of FARC.

I don’t agree with you on the idea of reincarnation of FARC guerillas…fortunately there is only a limited supply of FARC members, estimated at approx 13,000 or so….and eventually their numbers will dwindle, and the sooner the better…..

“any imperium has ben destroied with time, any dictator has feel the unconformism of the people, no matter how cruel he has been to keep them quiet.� Sounds like a great script for a Star Wars movie, but hardly applies to the Colombian government……

And your understanding of the “real problem COlombia has� doesn’t even deserve a comment………all I can say is that a mind is a terrible thing to waste………


Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

jccg says on Mar 1, 2006, 09:27:

jejeje Reduce Colombian problem to the existence of the FARC is pretty naive. But if you want to think that the day the last guerrilla fighter die, all the people will be happy, living in peace (still with their belies empty) and dancing. There is nothing I can do...
I agree with you in two points. Not to use the maind is really sad. But, there are more people seeing the world as the "heros" vs the "evils" at the best Hollywood style, that people actually criticizing every thing in life, i.e. using their mainds.
Do you really think Colombian workers situation, healt system, social security, etc, will stop been bad if there is not a web page denuncing it? Of course, killing each other do not help so much...
The second think I agree with you is the quote. But to get out of ignorance, people has to open their mainds to knolowdge, i.e. keep the maind close to diferent ideas do not help. And of course, read and analize! not just accept what the people in power says!

This is just the true!!

cali373 says on Mar 1, 2006, 10:13:

where ahve you been? We have known that for a while. did you know that it used to be hosted at a server in a university in San diego. taking down a server will not solve Colombia's violence, social issues, or unfair distribution of wealth. Even if you took the FARC out of the picture, you won't solve those issues.

Smile if you are a thinker!

cali373 says on Mar 1, 2006, 10:15:

How many pacifists helped establish the principle of freedom of speech?

Scandinavian countries, Canada, Martin Luther King.

Smile if you are a thinker!

litost says on Mar 1, 2006, 10:33:

Why do the so-called pacifists immediately change the subject and start talking about inequality, poverty, etc. etc... yes, of course Colombia has these problems but so do most other countries in the world, some worse. Would this mean that it is legitimate for a group to go up in arms, and use tactics such as kidnapping, murder or civilians, interferance in the democratic process, etc.? How can someone honestly equate the legitimacy of a FARC website to the defense of freedom of speech, when this same organization keeps people kidnapped for years and kills in cold blood the officials elected by the people? You need but read recent news to confirm this, in case you haven't noticed. Please answer directly to these questions, not going into the easy way out talking about all the problems in colombian society, that is unless you really do think they justify murder and kidnapping.

platano says on Mar 1, 2006, 13:51:

How many pacifists helped establish freedom of "How many pacifists helped establish the principle of freedom of speech?"

In the West, cultural values from the Enlightenment elaborated on by Immanuel Kant and later J.S. Mill and others (who were pacifist thinkers, not soldiers) stressed the importance of freedom of expression and openness as central to finding the truth, and for the stability and effectiveness of democratic government.

The principle of freedom of expression is contained in various United Nations documents, European Constitutions, and documents such as the European Convention on Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, documents written by pacifist thinkers, not soldiers.

Shutting down a FARC website is a subversion of the freedom of expression. The best response to bad information is not censorship or repression or violence. The best response is good information. Once provided with good information, full information and discussion, rational beings will reach the best conclusions.

Killing or otherwise shutting up your opponent is not the way to become friends and work together for a better future for all.

plátano

juancegomez says on Mar 1, 2006, 13:57:

........... platano:

All that works perfectly in theory. Yet the existance of all those thinkers and all those principles did not erradicate warfare nor censorship at the time, nor has it erradicated it today, nor will it do so in the near future.

Perhaps around the year 2250, 2500, 3000 or so we may have better luck, who knows...my crystal ball isn't working.

platano says on Mar 1, 2006, 14:09:

Freedom of speech is an inalienable right... Definition of inalienable (adjective)
not to be taken away; nontransferable

Examples of inalienable
The Declaration of Independence mentions the inalienable rights that all of us possess.

It is a birthright. You do not need to fight for it or defend it. Nobody can die to protect a right of another that is inalienable... that is ridiculous on the face of it... political propaganda to get people to kill others.

FARC has an inalienable right to their website, according to the USA Declaration of Independence, a great pacifist document: When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

plátano

platano says on Mar 1, 2006, 14:12:

juancegomez, You call it a theory. I call it the basis for a free people who want to live in happiness. One of the largest democratic countries in the world was founded by the spirit of freedom which was achieved through the power of nonviolence ("satyagraha" or soul force) exercised by a pacifist: Mohandas Ghandi.

plátano

platano says on Mar 1, 2006, 14:28:

We need a little more imagination.... It is so easy to say: "They are bad people... gotta kill them... shut down their website... wipe 'em out." as if that will solve the problem.

Fifty years of violence has not worked. Years of the toughest baddest "mano dura" hombre backed by the world's richest biggest military power has not worked.

Maybe we need to try a nonviolent way, and try again and try again, if necessary, until trust is established.

We should stop killing Colombians who could be vital in making Colombia a better place to live for everyone. We gotta live together in peace, unless, of course your God is telling you to kill people (with "animo sereno"), or you get some kind of sick kick out of killing people who differ in their political beliefs.

plátano

juancegomez says on Mar 1, 2006, 14:56:

.... FYI: I've already said elsewhere that I don't want nor need to shut down these people's website nor those of their international sympathizers, so I won't address that point again. In Spanish: Ni me va ni me viene que tengan su website, la verdad.

Going back to the rest of the discussion...ever looked at the rest of the post-Gandhi history of India lately (or even what was going on during Gandhi's later life)? It hasn't stayed completely true to those beliefs, for the most part. Why? Because it's very hard to do so. Human nature, sorry to say, isn't inclined towards pacifism by default, but towards egoism (whether benign or malign).

I call it a theory because, although it's an excellent ideal, that's what it remains. In practice, in most of the countries of the world and during most of humanity's history, it has remained an ideal, not a reality.

Turning that ideal into reality is a hard thing to do, and it will take a long time to do so, if it ever happens, both inside and outside Colombia.

Nonviolence and pacifism can win tactical victories once in a while, very impressive and important ones even, but strategically, they continue to play a secondary role...at least for now.

platano says on Mar 1, 2006, 16:27:

Unwittingly you have moved this discussion to something we all share: human nature. We share human nature with FARC, Colombians share human nature with Pakistanis, etc. We are all human beings. But what is our human nature?

We are usually presented with conservative and liberal views of human nature and its underlying psychology, but not with the mystical view (Wilber, 1981, chapter 19). Both conservative and liberal views portray human nature as fixed. For conservatives human nature is basically evil, greedy, normally aggressive, territorial. For liberals human nature is basically good and only appears evil, because of surplus repression, but is normally nice.

The mystical view, on the other hand, sees human nature as not fixed, as evolving, fluid. One has a freedom to acquire a nature. In the mystical view we are naturally the Buddha-nature, but normally we are fearful in two senses: fear of the other and fear of missing one's own higher nature.

The underlying psychology of both conservatives and liberals assumes humans have no higher levels of consciousness. Both try to program the persona with their respective values. Conservatives program the persona and use conditioning to create a layer of reason and loyalty to society to keep up the social contract, maximize the aristocratic: be William Buckley or some other generally genial leader. Liberals educate skeptical reason and program the persona with soft, humanitarian virtues. Liberals enforce equality, and support measures like progressive taxes and anti-trust legislation. Liberals want to be reformers.

The mystical view is to program the persona only provisionally in childhood, then de-program and de-condition. Replace mind program with Awareness-Being. In the mystical view humans are magnificent four-story Beings of body, mind, soul, and Spirit, not decapitated two-story body-minds.

The mystical model has always stressed the centrality of meditation ("praxis") for human fulfillment, passively allowing the higher levels of delight to possess you in deepening silence. This going deep into oneself has been "taboo" since around 1500 AD. Going within oneself to find silence and delight is not a shared, public priority. This strand of western civilization is neglected in most curriculums. Publicly funded education doesn't normally facilitate this kind of internal exploration.

Ordinary mind is oriented toward exploration of the external. The mystical model is not seen as helpful in developing a mind that can engage in activities oriented toward the external world, activities like science and nation building. Yet, it is precisely the practice of meditation that allows development beyond the mental identifications at the root of so much suffering in the world.

Ordinary mind is chronically analytical, divisive, and inconclusive. It always creates disagreements. Mental constructs, such as political and religious beliefs, divide and condition our experience based on belief systems created in the past. Mind-dominated humanity cannot act out in radically different ways to save itself because it is acting out of the past, in ways already out-of-date.

Through meditation, which is simply the scientific observation of self, we are able to witness (in the present moment) the fluctuations of mind, rest in that seeing, and free ourselves from narrow identifications (nation, race, religion, ethnicity, radical ideologue, etc.) that divide us. The resulting clarity of mind is a prerequisite to achieving a peaceful world. Humanity as it is lacks a shared outlook, identity or love to create a new world.

SOURCE CITED: Wilber, K. (1981). Up from Eden: a transpersonal view of human evolution. Garden City, N.Y.: Anchor Press/Doubleday

plátano

Miguel_Clavo says on Mar 1, 2006, 20:04:

Response to Subsequent Postings..... Response to subsequent postings:



Sr.Jccg:



Please reread my posts, as FARC was never as the sole problem that Colombia faces. This is fabrication on your part. And, nooooooo, I don’t think that once the last FARC member is dead that “all the people will be happy, living in peace (still with their belies empty) and dancing.� But I have to admit that for those that live in fear and have been displace might just do that as you wrote “be happy, living in peace (still with their belies empty) and dancing.�, but I believe that by then their bellies will be full from eating the supplies brought in by the government……My “wish list� does not include death to all FARC members, but it does include a wish for FARC to lay down their weapons, stop killing people who don’t have the luxury of posting on the internet like all of us, stop the rapes, torture, and other atrocities and join the civilized peoples of the world. (which I just have to add, does include space for pacifists! no hard feelings!) And then for them to use the political process without the violence to further their cause. And wouldn’t you know it, the Colombian government seems to think the same. I know, I know…..Bad Uribe, No Arepas for you!!



Do I think that the worker’s situation, health system, social security, etc will stop “been bad� if there is not a webpage “denuncing it�?

This is really avoiding the topic at hand, just like litost mentioned, but I would add that there is an overabundance of, should I say, “easily influenced� people with good intentions at heart, that would just love to believe their Marxist propaganda.



Cali373:



“Even if you took the FARC out of the picture, you won’t solve those problems.� (referring to violence, social issues, and unfair distribution of wealth.)



Again, a simple avoidance of the topic at hand. Please read my comments to Sr Jccg. Taking down a server is one small step that can be done to make it more difficult for them to operate. And even removing FARC in its entirety would, without a doubt, allow more resources like the enormous amount of money spent to fight the narco-teroristic FARC, the time, and the effort to be directed towards the other problems the country faces. Imagine all that money, effort , and work devoted to the other social problems! Ya think, that these issues might be impacted in a meaningful way?

With an average of more than 3,000 Colombians killed each year, and countless numbers displaced from their homes, I believe that these victims might disagree with your apparent lack of value place on their lives……..

Please, if you want to quote my posted question, you should at least respond to the issue addressed. “Scandinavian countries, Canada, Martin Luther King�…Countries are not considered “pacifists�, individuals are. So, 1 out of 3 isn’t bad….but I must point out the significant words in the question: “helped establish the principle of freedom of speech�……Martin Luther King was not even an itch in his daddies pants when the principle of freedom of speech was established………



Sr Platano:



To be enlightened is the same as having their heads in the clouds....similar to all the “enlightened politicians� in government and the “upper classes of the rich� who know oh so much more than the peons……Theory is just as Juancegomez describes…..and it seems to me that prior to all these documents written by pacifists that you list, most were a the beneficial results and consequences of some very nasty wars. I am not against freedom of speech, but it is not the ONLY freedom that is important…we seem to have conveniently misplaced those……like the right of the FARC victims to the pursuit of happiness, the right not to be tortured, raped, etc….



The goal of FARC is the overthrow of the Colombia democracy, accomplished by means of heinous atrocities against a lot of innocent Colombians. Do you honestly believe they want to be “friends� and “work together� with all non-Marxist Colombians? Umm…don’t think so….



FARC has an “inalienable right� to their website, so you would agree that the KKK, the Nazi Party, and Jihadists have the same right? I think that you would…..inalienable, right? Although I don’t ever remember reading the “right to have a website� as one of the inalienable rights……nice word, inalienable, but not relevant here…..

And since when did the Declaration of Independence, written 200 years ago, for a different country in a day and time very dissimilar to the Colombia situation apply? I would propose that the victims right to life, pursuit of happiness, free from terror, violent death, rape, (the list goes on…) is a much higher priority of a right to free speech…….for the simple reason that dead people like FARC victims really aren’t exercising their free speech liberties……and I don’t think that if FARC were to succeed in winning the hearts of all Colombians, how long would you freedom to express your opinion last in a Marxist-led government? I am not a betting man, but I would put money on that one……..lots of it.



And as for the apparent disdain for soldiers, you should thank those soldiers who died, allowing you to express yourself and your view so freely over the internet for all to read.



Civil war has lasted a very long time. But I believe it is due solely to the topography of Colombia, and the financial strength of the revolutionaries. Its hard to combat a force where the logistics make it very difficult to wage a conventional war, and where the guerrillas have equal or greater than financial resources than the Colombian government. The length of the war has more to do with this than the righteousness of their cause. Civilized countries wage a very disciplined manner of engagement, as opposed to terrorists where there is no rules of engagement or warfare. (Jihadists, religious extremists, and FARC are very good examples…)



Last thing is that I fail to realize the significance of quoting K. Wilber regarding human nature. Please, let us not be distracted by such intellectual gibberish………save it for the other theorists living at 30,000 feet in elevation……

Thank you for your patience in reading my post….i respect your opinion to agree and disagree…



Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

platano says on Mar 1, 2006, 20:41:

Miguel_Clavo.... The Declaration of Independence, the European documents, the Enlightenment, Ken Wilber, and all my comments on pacifists have one aim: that we raise our sights, think of alternatives and try something different to break the cycle of violence in Colombia.

As long as we continue to recite the litany of FARC horrors and maintain a confrontational stance, then friendship is not possible. I do not know if you are aware that I was a "victim" of a kidnapping by guerrillas so I have up close and personal contact with a wide variety of guerrillas. They are Colombians from a wide range of educational, social, professional, economic, etc. strata. FARC is not a monolithic block. FARC is a cross-section of Colombians. It does not make any sense to me to kill Colombians.

I don't want Colombians to be killing Colombians.

But as long as the stance on both sides is one of accusations and desire for revenge or annihilation of the "other" side, this conflict will continue. The larger perspective offered by Wilber seems very relevant to this problem of "you killed my chickens!" "you kidnapped my brother!" and the only thing we can think to do is kill the "bad guys".

I have offered many solutions to this problem on PBH. And people just shrug their shoulders, say Colombia is unique, this historical moment is unique, etc. etc. etc. anything to dismiss my solutions. So I'm not giving anymore solutions.

You join the crowd (not that different from FARC's reaction to my talk about pacifism), putting me at 30,000 feet, accusing me of talking gibberish that has no relevance for Colombia. Fine. Continue killing each other. Someday you WILL have to learn to live with your paisanos. Right now you seem to not even be able to recognize that FARC militants are your brothers and sisters. What a shame.

plátano

Miguel_Clavo says on Mar 1, 2006, 23:19:

Sr. Platano I have no doubt that your intentions are indeed noble and decent. And, if true, your victimization by FARC, is indeed unfortunate, as there are many other people in the world, very close friends of mine, who have suffered as well, some survived their incarceration, some we pray for their souls. I am not a war-monger by any means. In fact, working for the government for as long as i have in my capacity, i have seen first hand what confrontation means. I have walked through the hospitals in Colombia, stuffed to the gills with patients, and seen, spoke with the young 20 year olds that are victims of landmines, missing numerous body parts, with only a military stipend of LESS than what the government is offering the paramilitares. Its enough to want to make you puke for a week! I would hope that FARC members, who i believe are only ingrained into a military lifestyle due to the confined way of life maintained, would someday come to the realization that a majority of Colombian do not want a marxist society. Does that not mean anything to anyone? The foot soldiers are not really the "ideological thinkers" of marxism...they know that way of life because after more than 40 years of living that way it is the only way a majority of the foot soldiers know...and lets not even discuss their means of supporting themselves....this is not ideology we are talking about, it has morphed into a vicious drug dealing war machine....they do not want negotiations and a monthly minimum wage stipend from the government...they have bazillions of dollars at their disposal......

Of course, civilized people utilize discussion of alternative solutions to the social problems addressed, however, FARC commanders refuse to negotiate, even ofter Uribe offered them a safe zone, which they only interpreted it as a brief opurtunity to reestablish more control. Killing the "bad guys" in a general sense is not a good idea, but ignoring the numerous other victims of their violence for those who did not survive kidnappings, etc, is totally unacceptable. they have been given many oppurtunities to de-arm, join the rest of the civilized Colombian world, and work towards a solution. But when they refuse to do that, then force is unfortunately necessary. Because regardless of ideology, they do not have a right to kill innocent people. I dont believe the "touchy-feely" approach will work with out committment from the revolutionaries.

I admit that i am new to posting on this site, and havent read any of your prior postings on the matter. I was only responding to comments in this posting. I believe there are two types of people: those who only discuss, theorize, hold meetings, create committees to discuss creating other committees, and the whiners/complainers (the real American pastime, compounded adversely with the internet and $5 Lattes!) ....the other type is he/she who gets involved, takes the extra step after discussion, identifies a problem, works and strives to accomplish what others only talk about....This person also knows his/her limitations where the theorist doesnt. In theory, anything is possible. But the "active ones" always need to hear the perspectives of other people like yourselve, so all that i have read has not gone unnoticed. I may disagree at times, but to think about other positions is always valuable.

Colombian people are very unique by nature. If FARC were to become civilized and participated in the Colombian government, as invited, the resolve of Colombians would soon attack their issues with a passion. With a strong economy, Colombians would impress the world in how fast they emerge as strong developing counrty.


Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

platano says on Mar 1, 2006, 23:27:

Miguel_Clavo.... Thanks for your response. Besides myself, I have had friends kidnapped by guerrillas, friends assassinated by sicarios, friends who have lost their home to AUC, friends chopped up by machete (delincuencia común), etc. etc. etc. .... and I have attended far too many funerals in Colombia.

Yet, as you say, Colombia is not that. The majority of Colombians just want their families to be safe and to enjoy life. Colombia is incredible for what it has managed to achieve economically under such extreme duress.

Voy a rezar por todos los victimas...

plátano

jccg says on Mar 2, 2006, 08:58:

Couple of things Sr Litots:
"Why do the so-called pacifists immediately change the subject and start talking about inequality, poverty, etc. etc..."
Sorry, I thougth we were discussing the civil war in Colombia and the convenience or not to keep the right to express anyone's position to understand the conflict and the possible solutions. What was the topic?

Even, for the NARCO-MERCENARIES, http://www.colombialibre.org/, I do not agree with destroy their web page, but as platano says, uncover the true behind their lies by telling the true to the people.

Sr. Miguel_Calvo:
I do not agree with FARC-ep military actions, but in this case, the avobe comment also apply.

By the way: "would someday come to the realization that a majority of Colombian do not want a marxist society", I think the majority of Colombian do not KNOW what is the marxist propousal, they just say it is bad, because we have been received the "bad comunist" propaganda all the life. Even among the ones that claims to be marxist, the most haven't read "El Capital" (The Capital? I do not know how it is published in English) and just know the "tips" they have heard in the streets. But, I do not understand what you think is wrong with social justice, the end of social clases, equality of oportunities, the work for the good of the community before the personal good, and all thos marxist things? may be you are confusing Marx with Staling? the last one was the responsable for the dictatorship, the avoiding of free speach and the human right violations, that has nothing to do with marxism.
Ps. As I expalain in a previews post in other topic, Communism is a beatiful dream, but just a dream. Human beings are too selfish to work for the good of others. "All for me, nothing for you" is in the Human Nature, we are "natural born capitalist"

This is just the true!!

poco says on Mar 4, 2006, 15:28:

jcgg about those cartoons (off topic:) Those darned Cartoons This long blog page has the photos, about three quarters down you’ll find the same photo links with the blog opinion of each one. Look for cartoon 1, etc.

This site has lots of related links. They could keep you busy for DAYS. My favorite cartoon series so far is the 20 simple cartoons titled Jesus and Mo Blasphemy at its best!

Cartoonists are breathing fresh air into the void left by the enormous sucking created by the world’s governments.

"Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

el norteño says on Mar 4, 2006, 19:29:

Violence Platano, you ask what has 50 years of violence achieved for the government? Better yet, ask your Farc buddies what their decades of violence has achieved. Colombia is ready to explode economically. In fact, it already is experiencing strong growth. The Paras are laying down their arms, ELN is talking. All that remains is for Farc to come in from the jungle. Even if they don't , I see a bright future for this country. But, the odds are, this bandit army will continue to exist until it is inevitably crushed. There is no ideology, it is merely a criminal syndicate.

Actually, violence can solve problems. Violence ended slavery in the USA. Violence, and lots of it, stopped Hitler. And , in the end, Farc will die a violent death.

platano says on Mar 4, 2006, 20:57:

Your position is the same FARC told me: violence is necessary... If you want to use violence, find soldiers who want to...fight. The Colombian Army doesn't have its heart in it. Take for example the case of two companies of the Colombian Army who came across a stash of FARC money. Dirty FARC money that was gotten through kidnapping, extorsion, and drug trafficking.

What the Colombian Army soldiers did was divide up the money, (20 million dollars), and return to their base in Popayan (Cauca)... then some of them asked for separation from service, others just took off. Some went to Ecuador, some went to Venezuela, and some went to Peru. 143 soldiers (that's one hundred and forty-three soldiers) just split with the dough... some dedication to fight the FARC!

I have no doubts at all that FARC will be around for a while... there is not enough will to eliminate them.

plátano

juancegomez says on Mar 5, 2006, 08:23:

LLegó el Malo de la Peli.... platano:

"The Colombian Army doesn't have its heart in it."

Some of it might not, but some of it does. So, as is, your statement remains to be proven. Frankly, making such a blanket statement is rather naive.

"Take for example the case of two companies of the Colombian Army who came across a stash of FARC money. Dirty FARC money that was gotten through kidnapping, extorsion, and drug trafficking."

And does that somehow absolutely prove your previous statement? Not really.

Using that same kind of logic, one could point to the cases of hundreds of FARC members that have deserted or have become informants, or to any other example isolated from its context, as proof that the FARC doesn't have the will to win this fight. Which is, IMO, equally misleading.

"What the Colombian Army soldiers did was divide up the money, (20 million dollars), and return to their base in Popayan (Cauca)... then some of them asked for separation from service, others just took off. Some went to Ecuador, some went to Venezuela, and some went to Peru. 143 soldiers (that's one hundred and forty-three soldiers) just split with the dough... some dedication to fight the FARC!"

That they did that in no way proves that they had no prior dedication to fight the FARC, just that they valued their personal well-being more, when they found that opportunity.

Btw, you also forgot that a few actually turned themselves in and returned the money to the authorities.

"I have no doubts at all that FARC will be around for a while... there is not enough will to eliminate them."

While the first part of your statement might be reasonable...once again, it is not so simple as that, it's not just a matter of willpower (not to mention that reducing it all to "willpower" is a simplifaction).


GringoD:
"I think you are right on this last post, Platano."

I respectfully disagree...which doesn't mean that the opposite thing is true, no, just that what he posted is not enough to prove his blanket statement.

"Never forget the Tres Amigos in security uniforms, all about 19 years old, checking my bags at a table in line, before checking in at the Ticket Counter in the airport on my way back to EEUU in September; they were having more fun laughing at my feeble spanish, and they really didn't do much checking in my bags at all."

And does that somehow prove that that's the prevailing disposition? I really doubt that the guys at airport security are expected to have the same kind of training, not to mention dedication, that others in the field might have. So, again, it depends.

"As I just wrote in the thread about "What if the Farc Won the War" (disculpe me,... I always forget, it's not a war) seems to me, if the Colombian Government wanted to end the war, they could do it quickly."

Once again, I have to disagree. The situation is far too complex for it to be resolved "quickly", as if it was an easy thing to do, if only the Colombian state and Army had the "willpower" to defeat the FARC.

juancegomez says on Mar 5, 2006, 09:15:

......................... The number and percentage of Army personnel actually involved in combat missions has definitely increased recently, at least since several reforms began to be made in the Pastrana administration, so those stories do point to a relevant issue.

It's very true that military life is hard, just as life as a guerrilla is hard, and even life as a paramilitary too (unless one wants to believe otherwise, most of the people in these groups aren't enjoying themselves). Nobody in these groups is immune to the pressures and the difficulties that such careers bring.

Many of these guys, whether they are soldiers, paramilitaries or guerrillas, actually do get stressed out and only relatively few in each camp actually manage to professionalize and properly adapt to the difficulties of war over the years.

Logically, many of the others either become indifferent, retreat into some sort of vague "Rambo" mentality, simply go mad, or eventually desert, among other options.

vladimiro says on Mar 5, 2006, 09:45:

FARC Websites I would understand efforts to take down FARC websites, or those associated with the FARC like ANNCOL, if thier articles were influencial. But I have been entering COLOMBIA in GOOGLE news for years and have never seen an ANNCOL article appear, nor any from FARC related websites.

On the other hand, atleast 15% of the articles that appear in GOOGLE NEWS when you type in "Iran" are from websites that are run by a US-backed terrorist organization called the MKO: http://www.payvand.com/news/05/sep/1122.html

I don't think Colombians should worry about FARC or Para websites unless they become more sophisticated, like these guys, which even have one member as an anchor on FOX News (Ali-Reza Jaffarzadeh).

poco says on Mar 5, 2006, 13:41:

Disagree The Colombian Army doesn't have its heart in it. Take for example the case of two companies of the Colombian Army who came across a stash of FARC money. Dirty FARC money that was gotten through kidnapping, extorsion, and drug trafficking.

Soldiers steal money Didn’t bother to investigate the exact amount, maybe there is later dated information on the net.

This happened three years ago. The area was the “safe territory� given by pre Uribe administrations to the FARC. Safe: you bet,, it was the size of Switzerland. I wonder if this was the same type administration that changed the constitution and allowed Pablo Escobar to build his luxury prison.

The Uribe administration had just been elected. The army caught the guys. The money was in Pesos,, ie: More than likely this money was “taxes�, extracted under threat of death from the poor people living it the territory. The FARC does this all the time. Nice racket, extract money to guarantee safety,, Ha,, NO WONDER there are Millions of displaced persons. I doubt FARC has a pension plan.

The military is NOT demoralized,, as for having their “Heart in it�, from what I’ve seen they certainly aren’t demoralized but I live in a “safe� rural location,, you know,, a place under control, where taxes paid go the proper authorities, a location with schools, hospital, police, real elected officials. Ie: not pawns of the FARC being TOLD who to gets their vote.

Platano makes these typical statements,, interspersed with useful information. But what do you expect from someone that, at least in the past, carried a “signature� on his posts acknowledging his affiliation with the Colombian Socialist Greenpeace group.

Nothing wrong with a concern for the safety and eventual return of Ingrid Betencourt.

However, her ONLY victory was the election of ONE candidate in the LARGEST town in the MIDDLE of the FARC stronghold. Yep,, that might explain WHY she thought she would be SAFE and against all reason and advice made the decision to continue by car into FARC territory. Humm, wonder if FARC believed she would give them protection, until they could disperse their operations?

Saved by France – an Oxymoron

I think ransom, deals for arms, and the promise for MORE FARC support by obtaining more government concessions to allow the FARC more room to maneuver and maintain their campaign of death and destruction was HIGH on the agenda.

Lastly, your comment about attacking the FARC server was totally out of character. I would NOT have expected this comment a year ago.

Gosh, do pacifists believe it is OK to excite the population to commit acts while standing back and taking NO RESPONSIBILITY? Plus,, the site, more than likely does not own the server. Rental yes but with a backup it would be no more than an inconvenience to them,, there would be a little work for the actual owner.

Sometimes I think these sites are for the purpose of disseminating information, nothing more. Unless a person is totally ignorant or extremely young the net effect might be a resolve exactly opposite.

If you hadn’t had the Ingrid tag line on your signature years ago I’d never have done any research. The subject is fascinating. Some Colombians think she is dead because of the long silence.

I think her death would be because of illness and lack of care. I don’t think the FARC would kill her, they are too smart. What ever the outcome I’d say the administration will be blamed.

"Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

Miguel_Clavo says on Mar 5, 2006, 19:50:

Re: A Couple of Things.... Re: Couple of Things….

To keep on topic, we were discussing the Mutant Marxists, FARC. AUC should be the topic for another day…..

Sr Jccg:

Please don’t insult the intelligence of the average Colombian with your baseless inference that they are collectively ignorant of the Marxist proposal…ya think that their rejection of Marxism may have something to do with the fact that FARC doesn’t actually utilize any of these principles in their daily lives and actions? I think Colombians know enough of what they need to know, through 40 years of experience, and arrived at the same collective opinion that they want no part of it.

And you are really on point with the statement regarding the rank and file of FARC: “Even among the ones that claim to be Marxist, the most haven’t read El Capital�……they have no real idea why they are doing what they are doing, they are only following orders under threat of harm. So we have a bunch of murderous Rambettes running around placing land mines everywhere to protect their principles, ooopppsss.., sorry their cocaine labs and processing plants. This is all the while they are killing infants, children, teens, adults, parents, grandparents, and even the pets! Every country needs Marxism!!!

I don’t have a problem with social justice, the end of social classes, equality of opportunities, and the work for the good of the community before the personal good, per se…..these are great goals, and if it was possible in real life it would be something to analyze and consider. However, I do not see communism as a viable option to people with a conscience and intelligence.

Ahhhh, Sr Jccg,,,,we are finally getting somewhere with your last post…..seems you are actually a communistic pacifist, or is it a pacifistic communist?

Sr El Norteño:

Run for political office, and I will vote for you!! Hahahahaha….


Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

protocol13 says on Mar 5, 2006, 22:58:

In South America, there are other countries that are considered poorer than Colombia, yet, its people had not supported (or had the need) of a terrorist guerilla to overthrow their governments. Bolivia, Ecuador and Paraguay are these type of examples.

On the other hand, Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil and Peru had problems with urban and rural communist guerillas and it took forceful violence on the part of those military governments (except Peru)to eliminate them.

juancegomez says on Mar 6, 2006, 09:17:

Don't forget Venezuela. Which also defeated its guerrillas through force first and foremost, even without a military government.

Still, their military personnel is proud of that fact and some Venezuelans tend to shove it in the faces of noisy Colombians once in a while ("We did what you couldn't do!").

That doesn't mean that "violence is the answer". Just that it is one of the many, many possible answers, the best of which are usually the least violent ones.

jccg says on Mar 6, 2006, 10:28:

Mistakes... Dear Sr. Miguel_Calvo
"Please don’t insult the intelligence of the average Colombian with your baseless inference that they are collectively ignorant of the Marxist proposal"
Inteligence and knolowdge are two different things, althougt confuse them is a common mistake among low educated people.
"I think Colombians know enough of what they need to know"
If you want a mind-controled country, it would be true, but I do think the people is only free when they know and understand their social enviroment. Remember Jusu-cristo's "opnly the true can meke you free", it do has sence in this constext.
"we are finally getting somewhere with your last post…..seems you are actually a communistic pacifist, or is it a pacifistic communist?"
Then you has to learn to read... i.e. to understand what you read. At this point I has to remite you to the last paragraph of my last post.
Actually, your position:
"I do not see communism as a viable option to people with a conscience and intelligence."
Is not that far of mine, not because I would think that it is "intelligent" to keep the social clases and underpay the other's work, not do I consider something with "conscience" keep the other's in bad conditions to guaranty mine, but because I do realize your position is the natural position, the "strongest man" law, and the good of the community is against this natural instint.
"we were discussing the Mutant Marxists, FARC. AUC should be the topic for another day"
So must I understand that mutilate, rape, drug-trafficking, forced migration, etc... are not a problem if it do not menace to take the power from those who have it?

This is just the true!!

Miguel_Clavo says on Mar 7, 2006, 01:06:

Let us not forget about Venezuela... but then jumping out of the pan to land in the fire doesn't bode well for Venezuelans when that wannabe dictator Hugo Chavez becomes the Fidel Castro of Venezuela.....


Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

Miguel_Clavo says on Mar 7, 2006, 01:24:

How Lame..... Quote me but dont quote the whole sentence and take it out of context.......or maybe, Sr Jccg, you never read the whole sentence and see only what you want to see? and are you suggesting that because they dont rush to join FARC is because Colombians are inherently or genetically confused? or somehow collectively they are uneducated????? and you never directly answered the question regarding being a pacifistic communist, or a communistic pacifist?

Please re-read the comment about AUC, and i know that English is not your native language, but nowhere did i mention that "mutilate, rape, drug-trafficking, forced migration, etc...are not a problem if it do not menace to take the power from those who have it?" All of my posts have been pretty consistent in the fact that anyone, left, right, evil, good, that practices these atrocities should be dealt with appropriatedly...but group-hugs with them is really out of the question.....i wanted to keep on point because we can drift into a number of tangents involving ideological and financial criminal organizations like the paramilitaries, nazis, jihadists, etc. But in reality, seems you did misunderstand what was written.


Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

jccg says on Mar 7, 2006, 05:58:

As if you were a child...... Mr. Miguel_Calvo, I would try to explain my post to you, as I if you were in kindergarden:
"Quote me but dont quote the whole sentence and take it out of context" The quote are complete, it is obvious that we are discussing in the frame of colombian civil war, and that your sentence about the knolowdge of the facts and the understanding of that facts is in that context. I insist, you need to know all the possible interpretations of reality in order to understand it well.
"and are you suggesting that because they dont rush to join FARC is because Colombians are inherently or genetically confused?"
Your assumptions has not fundations, it not even deserve an answer.
"never directly answered the question regarding being a pacifistic communist, or a communistic pacifist?" I did it twice. in the last post and in the one before the last. But lets doit again: To be a comunist imply to work for the community, and share with others all that you get. It is not viable in communist countries, not is in capitalist. I work to keep myself alive, I would not give my effort to others becouse I am in a capitalist country, and I know they will take off everything far from me if I allow them. Now, if you ask if I do like the ideal of everyone working for the general good, I have to say yes, it is a beautiful dream, but just a dream.
Once again, you have to read carefuly.

This is just the true!!

litost says on Mar 7, 2006, 13:01:

As much as you'd like for it to be true, jccg, there is NO civil war in Colombia. There are a subversive/illegal armed groups with economic and territorial interests that terrorize the population and attack the legitimate, democratically elected government.

US, Spain, China, Yugoslavia, what's starting to happen in Irak... those are examples of civil wars.

platano says on Mar 7, 2006, 14:03:

Yeah, you only have three million displaced... and a lesser number dead. You gotta have at least a quarter of the population involved to have a good rip roarin' civil war. Colombia is a long way from that.

plátano

juancegomez says on Mar 7, 2006, 16:15:

...... C'mon platano, you can do better than that...at this rate, you may not win next year's Oscar either, even if you do get the nomination. :)

litost says on Mar 7, 2006, 16:28:

what's so civil about war anyways...?

platano says on Mar 7, 2006, 17:50:

litost, I think civil war is when civilians get involved... and not just uniformed armed actors. It's when you have domestic violence (instead of foreign invasion) often with members of the same family on opposing sides.

plátano

platano says on Mar 7, 2006, 17:52:

juancegomez, I am not making Oscar speeches, nor am I rehearsing for one. I am contributing serious political commentary to this scholarly PBH site. :)

plátano

juancegomez says on Mar 7, 2006, 19:11:

... Really? You almost got me there...

Well, if it's seriousness that you want... ;)

"litost, I think civil war is when civilians get involved...and not just uniformed armed actors."

Do you realize how many events in the history of the world, of all manner of sizes and shapes, would qualify as "civil wars" under that definition?

"It's when you have domestic violence (instead of foreign invasion) often with members of the same family on opposing sides."

I would definitely question the "often" part of the equation, especially at this stage of the (war-)game, anecdotic cases aside.

And IMHO and that of several analysts, internal armed conflicts, of which there are many varieties, don't necessarily have to be civil wars, and in the particular case of Colombia the label is of relatively little use.

For a longer take on this debate, see here (.PDF file):

http://www.ideaspaz.org/publicaciones/download/guerra_civil_english.pdf

Miguel_Clavo says on Mar 8, 2006, 22:59:

I dont think a kindergartener would be able to follow your... logic nor your style of writing. I am an educated individual, and there doesn't seem to be neither rhyme nor reason in your words. Maybe we can blame it on the translations.....None of your responses have i found to actually be a response. And the facetious line about being a communistic pacifist or a pacifistic communist only needed a simple answer as it was a choice between two options. Again, lost in translation. Maybe.........

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

garibaldino says on Mar 9, 2006, 01:31:

freedom of expression...[ freedom of expression...

http://eltiempo.terra.com.co/coar/ACC_MILITARES/accionesarmadas/ARTICULO-WEB-_NOTA_INTERIOR-2782185.html