FARC democracy in action

redway says on May 4, 2006, 14:18:

Class System It really is a drag for everyone.

Mr. Hollywood says on May 4, 2006, 15:21:

Big A "There would never be a place for Capitalism in a COmunist run country."

China, the world's biggest "Communist Run" country is a capitalist boomtown right now. So much for that theory.

Also, I don't think many people other than grey-haired old Kissinger proteges actually fear hemispheric communism anymore.

I know all about the Paras and their ill-deeds. However, this is a case of the FARC doing wrong. I'm tired of people using the ill-deeds of one side to excuse the other.

dwmte says on May 4, 2006, 16:00:

it appears that some feel that if the rich power broker politicians of colombia--not to mention elsewhere--were to all of a sudden 1) change their ways; or, 2) cease to exist, the ill done by the armed insurgents, nay, the insurgents themselves would suddenly embrace a different way of life... one which would recognize equality, humanity, charity, etc.

well, i'm wont to be a doomsday soothsayer, but i'm afraid to put you on notice that it ain't gonna happen. not today, nor ever. any more than the radicals throughout islam would change their ways if everyone threatened by them stood up and said, "you're right". sorry, assholes abound in society...whether they be the arrogant, selfish rich or the mean, terroristic insurgents. greed drives them both. and as i've noted after working around the world in third world countries for more than 35-40 years the only remedy for these evils is death.

as long as they can get away with it, they will. look at our present administration here in the united states...as long as they can get away with it, they will. it's like 'murphy's law'.

a change of heart, as alien as that may sound, is the only solution i can imagine and i don't see that looming on the horizon; not in the marulandas, garcias, bin ladens, bushes, putins, or whom ever is overwhelmed by the power they sow about themselves. power corrupts.

i would suggest to the altruists amongst us that they not invest in the tooth fairy and believe that if the colombian powerbrokers turned over a new leaf and really sought the welfore of all colombians that on the heels of that change the leaders of the farc and auc and others would give up their powerful postures and join forces with the reformed politicians and begin planting daisys instead of poppies and coca. sorry, power corrupts.

regime change always starts at home...with me.

dw

Mr. Hollywood says on May 4, 2006, 16:26:

Big A I don't really want this to turn into a pissing match, but every example you cited happened in the 70's to early 80's at the latest. I never said the US NEVER feared communism. Clearly we did a lot of shitheaded things because of that fear (Hint, I was all over Central America in the 80's) so you don't need to lecture me. But with the exception of a few cold-war holdouts, nobody in the US government is operating out of fear of Communism.

They continue the Cuba embargo because of the strength of the Miami Cuban lobby and the importance of Florida as a swing state. They rattle sabers at Chavez out of convenience, because it gives them a reason to militarize the hemisphere. But nobody with much power is afraid that the US economy is going to collapse because of communism, nor that it's a threat to our safety or security.

I suspect that hearing that news somehow erodes your own sense of self-importance and for that, I truly am sorry.

platano says on May 4, 2006, 16:51:

People, we got to stop saying China is not communist... FROM THE CIA FACT BOOK
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ch.html#Govt

Government type: Communist state ... Capital: Beijing

Political parties and leaders: Chinese Communist Party or CCP [HU Jintao]; eight registered small parties controlled by CCP

Country name:
conventional long form: People's Republic of China
conventional short form: China

local long form: Zhonghua Renmin Gongheguo
local short form: Zhongguo

abbreviation: PRC

plátano

Mr. Hollywood says on May 4, 2006, 16:57:

Big A Are you 13 years old? It seems like you learned to spell from text messaging.

Mr. Hollywood says on May 4, 2006, 16:58:

My green banana friend Platano, we've got to stop agreeing like this. It's getting almost embarrasing! What will the neighbors think?

platano says on May 4, 2006, 17:03:

FARC is out to take over Colombia... As all you hard-nose realists keep saying: to make an omelette you have to break eggs... it's another way of saying the ends justify the means, which is what both the Colombian Army and FARC believe. I would imagine FARC is thinking the end: to weaken the Colombian State, justifies creating chaos.

For a while it seemed FARC was content to kidnap mayors and release them with a guarantee of remote control of budgets. Maybe these Villavieja guys didn't want to allow FARC to control their budget.

plátano

Miguel_Clavo says on May 4, 2006, 17:49:

Extra! Extra! Communism corrects all social injustices!!! yeah, right.....ask any adult Ukranian or Russian if all their social injustices were corrected during the lengthy communist regimes.....oh, and Santa does exist, Elvis is living in Hawaii, the Tooth Fairy is not a fairy at all...all will be well with a successfull FARC-style government in control of Colombia..(free coke for the kiddies! just recycle the bindles please!!)..Colombia will be annexed by Chavez...Life will be just peachy keen!!!
Get Real, will ya?? Plant your feet solidy on the ground for a change....China is an oligarchy, using capitalism to line the pockets of a few chosen people...FARC needs to be eliminated ASAP, using everything short of nukes, including platanos..(P..just kidding)..and to be an equal opportunist, blast the paras too for the shit they have done and are doing.....Eliminate FARC, then the government can focus its resources on the real issues like poverty, social disparity, education, solidifying the economy, reestablishing the displaced, etc, and removing the fear and apprehension that a majority of the Colombians feel. The US doesnt want to turn South America into its suburbs, either. (we have mexico and canada for that! hahah...just kidding! put your gun away!! =P The primary goal of the US efforts in Colombia is the narco trade and democracy...do you think that if the marxists were to run the country they would give up their narco-terroristic ways, and stop making the easy narco-money? If you do, i have Michael Jacksons other glove to sell you!...and, as a bonus, i will tell you where Jimmy Hoffa is buried!!


Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo..."NOT the wannabe one..=P"....faltan 58 días.....

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

platano says on May 4, 2006, 18:00:

FARC would probably not be too imaginative... they would just follow the example set by Bolivia and Ecuador and Venezuela and Brazil and Chile and the leftist South American countries to stick it to Tio Sam.

plátano

Mr. Hollywood says on May 4, 2006, 18:09:

You really think so? Do you really think so, Platano? Interesting.

Give their ruthlessness now I've always imagined something more akin to Pol Pot or Chairman Mao.

The "revolution" seems like a lot of trouble to go to if you're just going to end up mimicing Lula.

platano says on May 4, 2006, 18:25:

Corruption, friendship with Chavez, etc. Power corrupts. Once FARC is in power in Colombia they will imitate Lula.

"Mushrooming allegations of bribery in President Luiz Inácio “Lula� da Silva’s administration are part of a wave of corruption charges sweeping through the Brazilian government.

• The accusations are sapping Lula’s personal reputation, as well as the spirit of Brazilian democracy. Thus, Washington is likely to find it markedly easier to rein in Brazilian defiance in the areas of economic integration, oil policy and Lula’s friendship with Venezuela’s Chávez. The U.S. is also less likely to tolerate Brazil’s leadership of regional economic and political initiatives that do not resonate with those of the U.S."

plátano

Miguel_Clavo says on May 4, 2006, 21:04:

Rigghhhhtttt....."They" are sticking it to the US alright.... like a moquito biting an bull sticking it to us. It has been confirmed that the air at 30k is much thinner, and causes delusional outbursts of postings on PBH...Chavez is nothing but a PAB with a serious case of syphilis destroying his brain....hahahaha...FARC following the other losers....can you say BAAAAA BAAAAA like a sheep......Misery loves company....they will just get deeper in shit even with Chavez $$$.....but the truth of the matter is they wont even know what to do with the country after living like animals for such a long time....they can tear apart and clean their weapons in record time maybe, but run a country and tackle all of its issues? Dont thinkkkkkk ssssoooooo......hard to act civilized if all you have had is platanos to eat!..(sorry, P, i couldnt resist that one! =) )

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo..."NOT the wannabe one..=P"....faltan 57 días.....

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

juancegomez says on May 5, 2006, 12:17:

platano, I don't think it's fair to group the FARC with the governments of all the other countries you've mentioned, for reasons both obvious and not.

In fact, one shouldn't even compare Chile and Brazil with Venezuela and Bolivia so easily, much less with Ecuador which is currently not part of either "classification", or with Cuba which is a "special" case (in so many ways).

They all have rather different kinds of leftwing thought and thus their practical applications are different too.

So to say that FARC will "follow the example" of all these countries is, with all due respect, not really true.

They don't even share a common position towards the U.S. Look at Brazil and Chile, which have a very friendly position towards the U.S. that hasn't changed, while that can't be said about Bolivia and Venezuela.

The Big A, while I agree with some of your statements, I disagree with others.

"No terriost organization has ever been defeated."

Actually, several have been defeated, both in Latin America itself and throughout the history of the world.

"they wil never defeat the FARC while injustices stil stand"

This hasn't been exactly true in other countries around the world, where guerrillas were defeated regardless of the continuing existence of injustice. It would be far easier, in theory, to defeat the FARC without injustice, but it is not impossible to do otherwise.

redway says something similar, mentioning that "the nearly blinding class inequality of Colombia is the primary source of the problem".

In a structural perspective, it is clearly one of the necessary sources of the problem. But it is not a sufficient one.

Again, there are plenty of examples, even in Latin America itself, that huge class inequality or poverty does not directly lead to a Colombia-like situation.

That leads me to conclude that structural elements alone determine little to nothing. They have to interact with more contextual elements, which vary from country to country, in order to properly express themselves in certain ways (ie: countries with or without guerrillas).

juancegomez says on May 5, 2006, 14:39:

... The Big A:

We seem to have some important conceptual differences. Some of those examples you cite aren't all guerrillas or terrorists per se, but radical activist groups or common criminal organizations. And, like you've noticed, they aren't all really comparable to the FARC and company. Not only in size, but in operation, goals, methods and development.

On the other hand, who can find cases of guerrilla or terrorist organizations (which aren't all the same, again) that have been defeated, or if you prefer weakened to the point that they are of little importance (but perhaps not for you) here:
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc//awcgate/milreview/sepp.pdf

here:
http://www.carlisle.army.mil/USAWC/parameters/05spring/deady.htm

here:
http://www.theestimate.com/public/080803.html

and here:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1984/CSA.htm

juancegomez says on May 5, 2006, 19:38:

... Well, then that makes it easier. The FARC isn't a terrorist organization in that sense of the word, though they are guilty of terrorist acts. Why? Because their main structure is that of a guerrilla army, one with terrorist or logistics cells of course but that's not the basis of their entire organization.

They want to become a conventional army capable of taking power, after all. That means that they have to organize, act and think like an army, a guerrilla army to be precise. Therefore, basing their entire structure on cells would be counterproductive to that goal, because such networks are not capable of conventional activities.

Hence, at least at that level, they are theoretically vulnerable to whatever methods have been used elsewhere to defeat rebel and guerrilla organizations, even if some of their cells survive. Again, all indications, and their own testimonies, show that the bulk of the FARC's modern structure isn't made up of such cells as those you describe.

A similar kind of cells was much more important in the case of the mostly urban-based M-19 (though they also had rural guerrilla fronts), for example, yet they were also very vulnerable to repressive action (several notable members of the M-19's leadership was captured relatively early, in fact tortured even, though they were later released).

billyb says on May 5, 2006, 23:14:

Big A... Castro, the only remaining communist leader in the world has just been listed in Forbes as the 9th richest head of state with a net worth of 900 million dollars. Your thoughts?

BillyB

platano says on May 6, 2006, 00:05:

Castro, the only remaining communist leader in the world? So what is HU Jintao... chopped liver? The world has several communist leaders and they've got their fingers on nuclear triggers, including the world's largest country, soon to have the world's biggest economy... and it is an aggressive, imperialist communist country (ask Tibet)... and everyone wants to help them become the world's largest military by strengthening their economy. The USA is helping them, Colombia is helping them, etc.

plátano

billyb says on May 6, 2006, 00:30:

So what is HU Jintao..... Platano, there's two ways we can go with your post. First, is China really a communist country? I think it's probably the most capitalist country there is, communist only in name. Second, I was talking about Castro's personal wealth. If Mr. Hu's personal wealth is greater than Fidel's, then he has my apologies.

BillyB

billyb says on May 6, 2006, 00:44:

But anyways Platano... I would like to hear your thoughts on Mr. Castro's wealth, while the rest of Cuba lives under poverty. I wonder if you have seen the home videos his daughter smuggled out of Cuba, showing his stravagant lifestyle. In Colombia even the most despicable person still has the unconditional love of his daughter, not Castro, why not?

BillyB

platano says on May 6, 2006, 09:05:

But I have expressed my views on this many times... Power corrupts. In China, in Cuba, and in the FARC. FARC has embraced capitalism. Do you also say the FARC are capitalists? I think it is more of a case of truly acting upon the slogan, "By any means necessary" to achieve your political ends (even capitalism!). By the way, I do NOT believe the end justifies the means.

As to Alina Fernandez, who has had four husbands and is anorexic, she last spoke with Fidel Castro when she was in her 20s (a long time ago). She writes letters to her mother in Cuba, but they do not speak, so she might be a bit of out of touch with Cuba.

plátano

caslug says on May 6, 2006, 11:15:

china by there OWN definition.. is communist I think. Remember there's ONLY ONE political party and govt has their hands in lots of things. but their economic system has many element of "free market", but not as "free" as US and western europe. Same time, many "democracies" have heavy socialist leanings. Even in the US, it's not pure capitalism, heck SS, medicare, anti-trust laws, all keep capitalism in check.

As for communism as a threat to the US IN THE PRESENT, it's bogus. US and Vietnam(communist govt) are moving closer(to conteract China). While US and Russia(democracy) is moving apart. Politics make strange bedfellow.

platano says on May 7, 2006, 13:20:

The Big A, You forgot to mention that Cuba provides scholarships to poor Americans who cannot afford to study medicine in the USA. Castro allows them to study FREE OF CHARGE in Cuba. Cuba is also a world leader in biotechnology, biogenetics, etc. The next cure for a disease people all over the world suffer from could come from Cuba.plátano

plátano

Mr. Hollywood says on May 7, 2006, 17:22:

Strange topic drift It's pretty weird topic drift for an article about the FARC assasinating local politicians in Colombia to somehow inspire a rousing series of cheers for Fidel.

FYI, before Big A and Platano jump on my back, I don't have any real issue with Castro. I'm sure if the the Cubans (meaning the ones who actually live there, not the Miami fruitcake squad)wanted to be rid of him they would have done it long ago

platano says on May 7, 2006, 19:34:

Back on topic: FARC supports democracy in the workplace... According to an analysis by James Petras, Bartle Professor (Emeritus) of Sociology at Binghampton University, New York, "Colombia has the dubious distinction of having the highest number of trade union leaders and activists assassinated in the world.... Paramilitary forces closely associated with the Colombian Armed Forces commit almost all these murders. Over 30,000 people, mostly workers, peasants, human rights advocates, leftist political leaders, teachers and health workers have been killed by the Armed Forces and their backers among paramilitary allies over the past decade."

Given this history it seems the FARC use of violent threat is similar to the anti-democratic violent actions taken by official Colombia. Similar but different. FARC is not elected and therefore has no legal authority. The Colombian state has been elected and has failed its legal obligation to protect life.

In the words of Prof. Petras: "Colombia could best be described as a “death squad democracy�, in which the electoral facade provides a political cover for a murderous regime." FARC is doing a good job of imitating their tactics.

plátano

billyb says on May 7, 2006, 20:23:

My apologies Mr. Castro, Big..... and Platano, I had not realized that Cuba is such a paradise, but then that would explain why hundreds of thousands of freedom loving people are risking their lives on rafts in the open ocean just to reach the liberty (the 100,000 political prisoners in Cuba aside) and prosperity (ovelooking the fact that for anybody not named Fidel, food is rationed, as well as shoes....) of Cuba's shores. Also, neither of you have commented on Mr. Castro's great personal wealth.

BillyB

billyb says on May 7, 2006, 20:25:

Yes, putting bombs ... in buildings and killing innocent women and children taking refuge in a church is how real armies fight, not terrorists.

BillyB

juancegomez says on May 7, 2006, 20:40:

Well...keep in mind that Nobody said that they couldn't, methodologically, classify as both armies and terrorists, strictly speaking (structural organization differences aside). At least I didn't, that I know of.

As for Castro, I'm far from a fan of his. But I'm also not a fan of the way the U.S. has horribly mishandled Cuba, giving Castro a perfect excuse to "blame the U.S." for everything.

IMHO, the U.S. should either have made a decisive push against Castro from the very beginning (no Bay of Pigs overt-covert nonsense, a truly decisive push), or else it should have come to accept the status quo. But a prolonged embargo that only gives popularity points to Castro and harms innocents is just wrong.

billyb says on May 7, 2006, 20:52:

Jaunc, I agree..... with you completely on both the embargo and Bay of Pigs.

BillyB

platano says on May 7, 2006, 21:09:

Tinto, Mr. Hollywood was commenting on how the thread had gone off onto Cuba, so I brought it back to the original post which is about FARC. Given that thread history, it seemed entirely appropriate to bring it back to the original post by bringing in what you consider to be a "voice of the FARC".

plátano

Mr. Hollywood says on May 7, 2006, 21:53:

Platano The problem with your source is that he's conveniently overlooking the FARC's own hideous history of persecuting labor organizers, educators and others.

Also, at this point in Colombia's history it seems a bit unfair to link the Colombian military to EVERYTHING the paras do.

How many paras does the Colombian army have to kill before it can somehow be de-linked?

juancegomez says on May 7, 2006, 22:06:

Probably all of them, or else nothing will ever be good enough for some people, Mr. Hollywood.

Which is just as hard, if not harder even, than killing all the guerrillas. Not impossible, but very hard.

Why? Because the paras are closer to mainstream Colombian society than the FARC, as much as it pains me to write that (which, logically, makes the mainstream seem quite ugly at times). They are not the mainstream itself, but they are definitely closely linked to parts of it, like parasites and leeches often are. And removing that tumor is going to be a very painful thing, because it will hurt part of the host too, for starters.

Yet some people expect it to be easy and painless, like switching off a robot. And the thing is, it would actually be easier to do that, if the paras were simply just another part of the mainstream (say, a "secret DAS"), and not so parasitical and autonomous (seeking their own local powerhungry agendas despite any and all links to the mainstream, which they also resent in some respects, as they also share a very real "outsider vs. insider" motif...I've been reading two newer books on the paras and they keep confirming a lot of their ambiguities, that people like Petras don't see).

Much more so if you are theoretically expected to do everything at the same time (fight FARC and ELN, fight AUC, fight narcos, fight common crime). That's the morally correct thing, but it's a very hard thing to do in practice.

Btw, James Petras views the world in far too red-colored, pro-FARC glasses for my taste, so I'll spare myself the effort of describing him in more detail. The guy is old news, nothing he says can surprise me anymore (unless he converts to Scientology).

platano says on May 8, 2006, 06:16:

Spare the ad hominem attack... and smear by false association... deal with the substance.

Mr. Petras never said EVERYTHING... he said almost all. I have read 70 to 75%

Scientology... sheesh! That is totally uncalled for within the context of this discussion.

plátano

Mr. Hollywood says on May 8, 2006, 09:09:

Help me out then I'm not understanding you, then, Platano.

In a thread about how the FARC terrorizes and kills local politicians who are neither bourgoise, right-wing, but are simply local folks trying to represent their communities and provide much needed civic servics, you posted a quote from an Ivory Tower leftist living in New York about how the Paras (and by implication the Colombian military) terrorize and kill labor organizers. What I don't get is how this follows? Does it excuse the FARC? Does it make the Paras or the state somehow responsible for the FARC? Does it mean the politicians were asking for it by being part of a corrupt system?

Please explain.

Mr. Hollywood says on May 8, 2006, 09:11:

While we're on the subject of paras While we're talking Paras, I think the closest parallel I can draw is to the Ku Klux Klan in the USA in the 50's and 60's. It had surely infiltrated numerous police organizations at the same time that those same police organizations were battling against the crimes of the Klan. Did the fact that the klan had infiltrated the Detroit police dept. make all Detroit Police members or supporters of the Klan?

platano says on May 8, 2006, 09:39:

Mr. H, I already explained this but I'll repeat it here... As all you hard-nose realists keep saying: to make an omelette you have to break eggs... it's another way of saying the ends justify the means, which is what both the Colombian Army and FARC believe. (Platano does not believe the end justifies the means). I would imagine FARC is thinking the end: to weaken the Colombian State, justifies creating chaos.

For a while it seemed FARC was content to kidnap mayors and release them with a guarantee of remote control of budgets. Maybe these Villavieja guys didn't want to allow FARC to control their budget.

FARC is playing hardball.

plátano

Mr. Hollywood says on May 8, 2006, 09:53:

Gracias Your view is much more clear.

I'll have to disagree with you about both the FARC and the Colombian Army (as an organization) believing that the ends justify the means. That was probably once true and there are probably still elements within the Colombian army who feel that way, but that doesn't seem to be the institutional philosophy. Of course, if one equates Army with Para the situation looks more that way, but I think recent history shows that's not a fair accusation.

Mr. Hollywood says on May 8, 2006, 10:12:

Maybe you misunderstood and he really said, "Si, pero es para activistas de derechos humanos."

platano says on May 8, 2006, 11:38:

It's all so poetic... FARC speaks of love of country, the Colombian Army speaks of love of country and of killing in cold blood ("animo sereno") and the end result is what happened to the good folk of Villavieja. The Colombian Army at least is more consistent in its words and deeds.

From the Code of Ethics of the Colombian Army:
7. Combatiré con valor, coraje y ánimo sereno, y sin esperar más recompensa que la de saber que cumplo la voluntad de Dios, lograr la grandeza de mi Patria y la gloria de mi Ejército.

From a FARC-EP editorial 28 de Abril de 2006:
Primero la patria, y si es la Patria Grande, cuánto mejor
Sobre la patria, el Libertador Simón Bolívar nos inculcó: primero el suelo nativo que nada: él ha formado con sus elementos nuestro ser; nuestra vida no es otra cosa que la esencia de nuestro propio país; allí se encuentran los testigos de nuestro nacimiento, los creadores de nuestra existencia y los que nos han dado alma por la educación; los sepulcros de nuestros padres yacen allí y nos reclaman seguridad y reposo; todo nos recuerda un deber, todo nos excita sentimientos tiernos y memorias deliciosas, allí fue el teatro de nuestra inocencia, de nuestros primeros amores, de nuestras primeras sensaciones y de cuanto nos ha formado. ¿Qué títulos más sagrados al amor y a la consideración?

plátano