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Extortion

In some parts of Europe paying protection money is an occupational hazard for most business owners. In Bulgaria, Sicily, sections of Belfast etc. it's pay up or else. I'm sure the practice is not unknown in Colombia.

My question is- to what extent would a gringo businessman have to cough up the vacuna? If a guy from the States had a relatively small but solvent concern in a major city, such as a bar, language school or delicatessen (for example) what are the chances of his having to pay extortion money? If he were, would it be an 'acceptable' amount that could be factored into accounts in the way a legitimate tax could be? Or would the sum demanded all too often damage or cripple the business? If he wasn't paying, would it be that such businesses were too small to attract the attention of the extortionists? Would his foreigness be a factor in his remaining untouched- the government making an effort to ward off the bad guys perhaps, so as not to frighten off any further overseas investments?

By kalder on Jul 19, 2007, 05:02 in Friendly Talkzone.

Timba says on Jul 19, 2007, 06:21:

I believe they call them street taxes.

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billyb says on Jul 19, 2007, 06:33:

In the large cities you should be relatively immune from la vacuna, that is unless your business is located in one of the San Andresitos, then you come under the jurisdiction of which ever Para group controls the concessions there. Also small time vendors in the gallerias have to pay to operate in the area. It's like everywhere, the small business owners are the ones who get screwed.

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robi666 says on Jul 19, 2007, 06:34:

1) The gringo business will be treated as a colombian one.
2) It depends on where you open. Medellin and Bogotà, you'll have the chance to not pay. Bquilla and Santa Marta, forget it.
3) They don't want to ruin the business, if a boss is not interested in acquiring it or you're putting in danger the activity of a boss shop. So, usually is something acceptable, sometimes not.
4) You'll never be unperceived in a place where they pay vacuna.
5) Surely, if you go to GAULA and advice your embassy, I am sure that they will have to make a special effort.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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robi666 says on Jul 19, 2007, 06:37:

Billyb, open a shop in Santa Marta and you'll be visited soon, 100%.

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billyb says on Jul 19, 2007, 06:38:

Robi, you are correct about SM, it's Para controlled lock, stock and barrell.

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robi666 says on Jul 19, 2007, 06:56:

If it happens that you are in a place subjected by both guerillas and paracos, you just pack everything up and go! If they discover that you pay the other group, you're "objetivo militare".

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billyb says on Jul 19, 2007, 06:58:

Robi, that's the biggest problem and why there are so many displasados in Colombia, they get caught in the middle.

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snake says on Jul 19, 2007, 07:10:

why would anyone want to live in these circumstances if they had other options? sounds like a pretty wimpy and undignified way to live your life; having to pay someone for protection lol

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kalder says on Jul 19, 2007, 07:27:

Even my wife gets cagey when we talk about stuff like this. I asked her in passing once, about a hypothetical gringo owning a bar on Avenida Sexta in Cali. I asked her how much would he have to pay and to whom? She said if he kept in with the cops- that is gave them a free meal and drinks every now and again, everything would be fine. But Snr. Kalder will only say anything 'bad' about her country if pressed and I had a feeling she'd have had a lot more to say if I'd wanted to pursue the issue.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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robi666 says on Jul 19, 2007, 08:06:

"If he is a well connected sombody or another what are they going to do?"
You get a bigger problem back onto yourself. I have a friend in Barranquilla, he had a problem with a well known politic of the costa. After he put his lawyer at work, he received a visit by paracos: it was give up or be killed. It happened last month.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jul 19, 2007, 09:30:

I have a Colombian friend who thought he was immune to la vacuna and that the guys asking for it were a bunch of punks.

He was kidnapped and held for six months. Turns out they were real paracos. He was lucky to get out of the situation alive.

I pity the small and medium business owners of Colombia, who so often have to sort out this kind of bullshit and make life threatening decisions based on very little info.

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kalder says on Jul 19, 2007, 09:42:

I suppose one strategy would be to proactively approach the most powerful group on the block (paracos, mafia, whatever) and voluntarily put yourself under their 'protection'. This happened a lot in Northern Ireland, with many Catholic businesses electing to pay off the IRA unasked, rather than have to deal with them further down the road.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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robi666 says on Jul 19, 2007, 09:53:

Kalder, this is not often possible... nor a good advice.
First, you can never be sure about which is the most powerful group.
Second, things can change in a heartbeat.
For example, in SM, right now, there three main groups (someone says two) fighting for territory.

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kalder says on Jul 19, 2007, 09:55:

I take your point. Jesus wept.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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caruso says on Jul 19, 2007, 10:17:

I came to Colombia after 25 years trying to open a Design Business and two months later the phone calls begin
e-mails, same taxi at the parking lot of my building another phone call them $1000 USD. I'm out of here! I think one of my mistakes was giving my business cards with the Bogota and Denver Address.

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bufalo says on Jul 19, 2007, 10:51:

I remember in SM years ago, the paras said no business would open on a particular saturday night, announced over the news and all - the place was dead for one day. Funny how some guys I know, married to samarias, say that never happened...

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

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dwmte7 says on Jul 19, 2007, 17:50:

kalder...i took over a very famous bar in llano grande (named 'flot') stands for federico lo tiene, and the only pay off necessary was to the head of the ** brigade and it was in no ways a funky bribe or anything like that. rather a courtesy. let him use my office when ever he wanted to do what ever it was he did in there, let him bother the gals to his pleasure and offer drinks when he wanted. i did this out of favor, not because he asked. hardly, he was a wonderful guy and it certainly wouldn't harm me to know the 'muscle' if i ever needed it.

dw

dwmte

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poco says on Jul 19, 2007, 18:07:

The haves will always go after the have nots.

You've got that backwards.

There can be many "taxing" authorities. Chiquita bananas paid "taxes" to the FARC. More than likely to keep their employees from being killed. Their mistake was reporting it to the U.S. goverment,, I'll bet they never do that again.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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bueno_pues says on Jul 19, 2007, 19:19:

Mi Tio Sal nunca me hace pagar. Que bueno!

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jul 20, 2007, 09:14:

I've got lots friends and aquaintances in Cali who have businessess and I have never heard of them being asked for a "vacuna" or being extorsion victims. I am pretty sure that I would have heard it talked about as I go to all type of social gatherings and clubs with middle-age people and tongues wag.

Perhaps it's more a costeño or rolo thing. Everybody knows about the guerrilla making ranchers and campesinos pay "war tax" but that is an entirely different thing.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jul 20, 2007, 11:29:

Yes, if the people were close friends. I would've heard something. Perhaps not a topic that people discuss when mingling, but rather something that might come up when two dear friends have a quiet moment later into the night and have had a few glasses of wine each.

I still think that even if it might happen even in Cali it's not a common problem,

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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Man Tequila says on Jul 20, 2007, 12:01:

I'm sure Desi is right about her friends. But the OP is asking about whether gringos are taxed, and that may be a different kettle of robalo.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jul 20, 2007, 12:30:

I believe it makes no difference if you're a gringo. You'll be treated just about the same as any Colombian. I do have gringo friends too....

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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snake says on Jul 20, 2007, 12:39:

i don't see how any self-respecting person would tolerate this. maybe akin to being raped.

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Jul 20, 2007, 14:14:

If you read portions of the last two comments quickly...

DESI: I have Gringo friends, too.

SNAKE: I don't see how any self-respecting person would tolerate this.

;-)

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Jul 20, 2007, 14:17:

I have a friend that his family paid the paras something like 3 millions a "vacuna" for protection but they said is worth it

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Miguel_Clavo says on Jul 20, 2007, 14:18:

tinto! akin to being raped????!!!...jajaja...

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Jul 20, 2007, 14:18:

for protection of the farm

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Miguel_Clavo says on Jul 20, 2007, 14:20:

glad you clarified that, Kat....otherwise that would be one expensive condom....!

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Jul 20, 2007, 14:22:

geezzzzz if there something else in a mind men other than sex :))))

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jul 20, 2007, 15:19:

LOL tinto....
Kat yes, that I have also heard but not any maffia/mob type extortion activity in the cities like Cali.
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Jul 20, 2007, 15:37:

I agree desi my friend lives somewhere in El META

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Jul 20, 2007, 15:48:

uhmm i dunno gib every story is different, when we were looking for a farm many people came to my husband with horrible stories and some with nice, but hey i am Colombian so my family, so we knew which areas were fine and which not... he wanted to buy a second farm somewhere which i won't mention but we said no.... cuz we knew it was dangerous... so we know were we can invest, i dunno what kind of family will do that, i mean to lie.. my family is always thinking about our welfare and security.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Jul 20, 2007, 15:50:

but as i said many stories are different.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jul 20, 2007, 16:00:

First of all, GIB, people that I know in Cali have stopped thinking about me as a foreigner, a long tome ago. I lived there for many years and have been going back even longer time. These are the same people I knew 20 years ago or more and for them I'm not a foreigner but somebody who used to be their neighbour and friend and then went to live in Europe. They tell me exactly the same things they would to any any Colombian friend of theirs.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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billyb says on Jul 20, 2007, 16:31:

I agree with Desi, I'm sure it happens, but it's not a systemic thing in Cali like it is in the country and smaller cities that are under more pressure from any the different armed actors.

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Miguel_Clavo says on Jul 21, 2007, 11:48:

of course GIB doesnt consider himself a foreigner or a typcial gringo.......how funnyyyyyy.......sorry, dude, i think i would believe Desi since she does have integrity and credibility ......lo siento muchisssssssssiiiimmmmooooooooooooo.....=)

once a gringo, always a gringo...fact of life except those in denial......=)

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jul 21, 2007, 13:20:

Gringo, you don't have to believe me, but I think you should listen to other people like billyb who is originally from that area and knows his way around Valle and Zona cafetera. They agree with me. It happens, but it's not the norm. You don't have to be right on all accounts. Sometimes it feels like you want to antagonize with me just because of my seniority about Colombia, like tryng tro pull rank on me.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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billyb says on Jul 21, 2007, 21:23:

GIB, that's precisely it. Your experience is limited to your little corner or your neighborhood of Bogota and your little circle of friends, yet you try to extrapolate it to encompass what goes on in all of Colombia, when it doesn't even reflect what goes on in Bogota.

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billyb says on Jul 21, 2007, 21:36:

Those Arkansas family trees don't branch out. BTW, I heard a lot of the chorizo gals moved to Fresno, so i hope you and MC didn't get any shady dates there ;)

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Miguel_Clavo says on Jul 21, 2007, 21:59:

i would say that photo should be a poster on some of those marriage agency sites.....they look happy, which american men have long lost, no? jajajja......

no shady dates but it was pretty warm there in Fresno....but the waitresses were real friendly ..lots of latinos there too......but there are alot of sausage factories in SF.....the chics in Salinas were better than the local talent in SJ thats for sure....too many pasty Barbie Dolled Paris Hilton wannabees in San Jose....=)

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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billyb says on Jul 21, 2007, 22:01:

Vup, didn't you post a pic of a vallenata sporting chorizo package back in one of your other incarnations? jaja.

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Miguel_Clavo says on Jul 21, 2007, 22:20:

he sure was nasty, dude..how about the chic with the nutsac.....eeewwwww......jajajajjja

i spent $200 worth of therapy on that one,,,,grossed me out!!

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Miguel_Clavo says on Jul 21, 2007, 22:29:

Arkansas?? isnt that where Clinton hails from? maybe that was a college photo of clinto..either hilbillary or the cigar man!??

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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billyb says on Jul 21, 2007, 22:30:

Now let's leave Burlytown out of this ;) I took four shots of ron med to realize that? jaja.

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Miguel_Clavo says on Jul 21, 2007, 22:45:

ah yes, my beloved tiburones......bastards! =)

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Miguel_Clavo says on Jul 21, 2007, 22:48:

Yup Vup! =)

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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aztec says on Jul 22, 2007, 06:26:

Certainly surprised concerning the conversation re. Cali and extortion. If you are the one getting the visits and phone calls then you are the "norm"!

You better believe it goes on in Cali. Lately run into it in Bogotá when attempted purchasing an apartment from a successful businessman. It is so bad for him that he is moving to to the States as soon as he can. He has duel citizenship and his family is already in the USA.

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robi666 says on Jul 22, 2007, 08:16:

If it happens in Bogotà, it happens 10 times more in Cali. Or Barranquilla. Or Santa Marta.

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robi666 says on Jul 22, 2007, 08:21:

By the way, it is the norm here to say "I don't know, I don't have any problems" even if they try to shoot you down the day before. I have a friend who was nearly killed in SM two months ago, and he still says that he do not understand why, while everyone in the street knows why that happened.

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billyb says on Jul 22, 2007, 14:47:

Nobody is saying it doesn't happen in Cali, but it's anecdotal and not systemic as GIB wants to sugggest. BTW, the drug cartels make their money by running drugs (shocker) not extortion which in the larger cities is performed by lower level street gangs dedicated to that activity. In the smaller towns and rural areas that activity is carried out by para units and the guerilla's "milicias".

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robi666 says on Jul 22, 2007, 17:17:

Billy, just to explain something:
where there's drug, there's AUC or Guerilla.
The main income of AUC is not from producing drug, but putting a tax on production, transformation and delivery. Do you think they live with vacunas to little shops in town? No way.
But where there is a vacuna for drug, there is vacuna for anything else. If you have an organization set up for something, you use it for anything. It's a normal rule of business.
So "extortion which in the larger cities is performed by lower level street gangs dedicated to that activity" it is a bullshit! Extortion is just a part of a bigger business and those gangs are a part of a bigger organization.
So give me a town free from drug, same town will be probably free from vacunas too.
Give me a town related to drug, that town will be a major spot for vacunas. That's it!
I don't know Cali, but I know very well what happens in Santa Marta and I believe Cali is not so different.

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manINred says on Jul 22, 2007, 17:18:

"I've got lots friends and aquaintances in Cali who have businessess and I have never heard of them being asked for a "vacuna" or being extorsion victims"

I have the same experience with Medellin. This is obviously not to imply that it does not happen to other unfortunate small businesses.

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robi666 says on Jul 22, 2007, 17:27:

Anyway, it is so strange...
GIB, I have been living here just for two years now, and I have heard and see so much shit that I never saw in my all life before, and there are people who professes their colombian seniority and never saw or heard about anything... really incredible... were they living in a glass ball or what?

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billyb says on Jul 23, 2007, 06:56:

GIB, right about now you should be realizing that you don't know what really goes on. Quit kidding yourself. Your shoeshine boy passing on rumors is not really considered "inside information from security sources" jaja.

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billyb says on Jul 23, 2007, 07:04:

Not unless he's working under deep deep cover ;)

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billyb says on Jul 23, 2007, 07:10:

Robi, no offense, but like you said, you don't know Cali and it's not like SM. We already agreed that Sta. Marta is a Para company town, Cali is not. As for the countryside, like I've said on here all bets are off there.

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robi666 says on Jul 23, 2007, 07:49:

Ok, Billyb, you're probably right and I'll take your point.

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Miguel_Clavo says on Jul 23, 2007, 10:48:

billyb...keep this in mind:

You can lead the donkey to the water, but you can't make him drink the water......=)

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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