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Elogio de la mujer brava (Hector Abad Faciolince)

A los hombres machistas, que somos como el 96 por ciento de la población masculina, nos molestan las mujeres de carácter áspero, duro, decidido. Tenemos palabras denigrantes para designarlas: arpías, brujas, viejas, traumadas, solteronas, amargadas, marimachas, etc. En realidad, les tenemos miedo y no vemos la hora de hacerles pagar muy caro su desafío al poder masculino que hasta hace poco habíamos detentado sin cuestionamientos. A esos machistas incorregibles que somos, machistas ancestrales por cultura y por herencia, nos molestan instintivamente esas fieras que en vez de someterse a nuestra voluntad, atacan y se defienden.

La hembra con la que soñamos, un sueño moldeado por siglos de prepotencia y por genes de bestias (todavía infrahumanos) , consiste en una pareja joven y mansa, dulce y sumisa, siempre con una sonrisa de condescendencia en la boca. Una mujer bonita que no discuta, que sea simpática y diga frases amables, que jamás reclame, que abra la boca solamente para ser correcta, elogiar nuestros actos y celebrarnos bobadas. Que use las manos para la caricia, para tener la casa impecable, hacer buenos platos, servir bien los tragos y acomodar las flores en floreros. Este ideal, que las revistas de moda nos confirman, puede identificarse con una especie de modelito de las que salen por televisión, al final de los noticieros, siempre a un milímetro de quedar en bola, con curvas increíbles (te mandan besos y abrazos, aunque no te conozcan), siempre a tu entera disposición, en apariencia como si nos dijeran "no más usted me avisa y yo le abro las piernas", siempre como dispuestas a un vertiginoso desahogo de líquidos seminales, entre gritos ridículos del hombre (no de ellas, que requieren más tiempo y se quedan a medias).

A los machistas jóvenes y viejos nos ponen en jaque estas nuevas mujeres, las mujeres de verdad, las que no se someten y protestan y por eso seguimos soñando, más bien, con jovencitas perfectas que lo den fácil y no pongan problema. Porque estas mujeres nuevas exigen, piden, dan, se meten, regañan, contradicen, hablan y sólo se desnudan si les da la gana. Estas mujeres nuevas no se dejan dar órdenes, ni podemos dejarlas plantadas, o tiradas, o arrinconadas, en silencio y de ser posible en roles subordinados y en puestos subalternos. Las mujeres nuevas estudian más, saben más, tienen más disciplina, más iniciativa y quizá por eso mismo les queda más difícil conseguir pareja, pues todos los machistas les tememos.

Pero estas nuevas mujeres, si uno logra amarrar y poner bajo control al burro machista que llevamos dentro, son las mejores parejas. Ni siquiera tenemos que mantenerlas, pues ellas no lo permitirían porque saben que ese fue siempre el origen de nuestro dominio. Ellas ya no se dejan mantener, que es otra manera de comprarlas, porque saben que ahí -y en la fuerza bruta- ha radicado el poder de nosotros los machos durante milenios. Si las llegamos a conocer, si logramos soportar que nos corrijan, que nos refuten las ideas, nos señalen los errores que no queremos ver y nos desinflen la vanidad a punta de alfileres, nos daremos cuenta de que esa nueva paridad es agradable, porque vuelve posible una relación entre iguales, en la que nadie manda ni es mandado. Como trabajan tanto como nosotros (o más) entonces ellas también se declaran hartas por la noche y de mal humor, y lo más grave, sin ganas de cocinar. Al principio nos dará rabia, ya no las veremos tan buenas y abnegadas como nuestras santas madres, pero son mejores, precisamente porque son menos santas (las santas santifican) y tienen todo el derecho de no serlo.

Envejecen, como nosotros, y ya no tienen piel ni senos de veinteañeras (mirémonos el pecho también nosotros y los pies, las mejillas, los poquísimos pelos), las hormonas les dan ciclos de euforia y mal genio, pero son sabias para vivir y para amar y si alguna vez en la vida se necesita un consejo sensato (se necesita siempre, a diario), o una estrategia útil en el trabajo, o una maniobra acertada para ser más felices, ellas te lo darán, no las peladitas de piel y tetas perfectas, aunque estas sean la delicia con la que soñamos, un sueño que cuando se realiza ya ni sabemos qué hacer con todo eso.

Los varones machistas, somos animalitos todavía y es inútil pedir que dejemos de mirar a las muchachitas perfectas. Los ojos se nos van tras ellas, tras las curvas, porque llevamos por dentro un programa tozudo que hacia allá nos impulsa, como autómatas. Pero si logramos usar también esa herencia reciente, el córtex cerebral, si somos más sensatos y racionales, si nos volvemos más humanos y menos primitivos, nos daremos cuenta de que esas mujeres nuevas, esas mujeres bravas que exigen, trabajan, producen, joden y protestan, son las más desafiantes y por eso mismo las más estimulantes, las más entretenidas, las únicas con quienes se puede establecer una relación duradera, porque está basada en algo más que en abracitos y besos, o en coitos precipitados seguidos de tristeza. Esas mujeres nos dan ideas, amistad, pasiones y curiosidad por lo que vale la pena, sed de vida larga y de conocimiento.

Vamos hombres, por esas mujeres bravas!!!!!! !!!!!!!

By Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) on May 19, 2009, 10:13 in Solo en Español.

huskie says on May 19, 2009, 17:02:

Nice Desi, Bravo!!!
Cheers

"Huskie; Many thanks for your comments. Do you intend to post anything constructive here? Are you ABLE to contribute ANYTHING?"an ignorant frenchman named Darloupoo

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catamd says on May 19, 2009, 20:44:

LOVE IT!!!! HOPE EVERY GUY THAT POSTS IN PBH READS IT!!! TKS DESI!

Dra Cata

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 19, 2009, 20:49:

Huskie, I thought you'd like it ;)

Cata, what a pity that most of them don't read Spanish.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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catamd says on May 19, 2009, 20:49:

Want me to translate it for them??

Dra Cata

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catamd says on May 19, 2009, 20:50:

Desi ever read the book "Why men marry bitches"?

Dra Cata

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 19, 2009, 20:51:

Sure, that'd be GREAT!

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 19, 2009, 20:52:

No, I haven't, Cata

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Lisa Zee says on May 19, 2009, 20:57:

H.A.F is a wonderful writer. Thanks Desi, where did you find this?

La vida sera' contigo tan justa como lo eres con los dema's.

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catamd says on May 19, 2009, 21:06:

Ok, here it goes...excuse any typos and translation errors, I'll do my best!!!

"A PRAISE TO ANGRY WOMEN" Part 1

We chauvinist men, around 96% of the male population are bothered by women with harsh, hard and strong will of mind. We have denigrating terms for them : bitches, witches, old maids, traumatized, bitter, tomboys, etc. Reality is we are intimidated by them and can't wait to make them pay big time for challenging man power, a power that until not very long ago we took for granted without doubts. We, incorrigible chauvinists we are, both from heritage and culture are bothered by those creatures that instead of submissing to our will, attack and fight us back.
The female creature of our dreams, a dream disfigured by centuries of arrogance and beast genes (still infrahuman), consists of a submissive, sweet, meek and young partner, always bearing a patronizing smile for us. A pretty girl who doesn't talk back, behaves properly and speaks nicely, one who never demands, who only speaks to be polite, praise our actions and celebrate our sillyness.
.

Dra Cata

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catamd says on May 19, 2009, 21:13:

Part 2
She must use her hands to caress us, have our house immaculate, cook well, know well how to pour our drinks and arrange flowers in nice vases. This ideal woman fashion magazines promote can perfectly identify herself with one of those model-like girls on TV before the news are over. They are an inch away from being naked, have incredible curves, seem to be at your entire disposal and blow hugs and kisses at you even though they haven't even met you. Apparently they seem to tell us "you just tell me when and I'll spread my legs", always ready for a giddy relief of bodily fluids among ridiculous male moanings (not theirs, who need more time and are left halfway).

Dra Cata

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catamd says on May 19, 2009, 21:20:

PART 3
Young and mature chauvinists are cornered by this new type of women, real women, those who don't give in but fight back and that's why we still dream about perfect young girls who put out easily and without any fuss. Because these new women demand, claim and give back, stick their noses in our business, nag, contradict us, speak and only take their clothes off when they feel like it. These new women can't be bossed around, do not get stood up, dumped or cornered silently in subordinate roles or secondary jobs. New women study more, know more, are more disciplined, take initiative and maybe that's the reason why it's harder for them to find male partners, for all us chauvinist are intimidated by them.

Dra Cata

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catamd says on May 19, 2009, 21:29:

Part 4
But these new women, if one manages to tie down and control the male chauvinist pig we all have inside, are the best life partners. We don't even have to be their sole providers, for they wouldn't allow it. They know that was always the beginning of our domination. Then don't stand to be mantained by a man, which is one way of being bought, because they know that's where, along with brute force, our man power has stood during centuries. If we get to know them and overcome their being critical, their refuting our ideas and pointing out those mistakes we don't want to see for ourselves, and pinpoint flat our vanity, we'll realize being peers is good, because it makes it possible to have an equal relationship where nobody dominates or is dominated. As they work as much or even more than us, they might come home tired and in a bad mood after work, and what's even worse, they might not feel like cooking. Atfirst it'll piss us off, we won't see them as good and abnegate a woman as our own holy mother, but they're better, precisely because they're not saints (saints tend to santify) and they are in their full right no to be so.

Dra Cata

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catamd says on May 19, 2009, 21:41:

Part 5
They grow old as we do, their skin and breasts are no longer like a twenty year old's (let's us look at our own chests, feet, cheeks and lack of hair), hormones might make them fluctuate between euphoria and bitchiness, but they are wise in living and loving, and if at any time in life we are in need of sensible advice, they'll be the ones to provide it, not the young girls with perfect skin and boobs, even though they are the delicious treats we dream of, a dream that once has become true makes us ask ourselves what to do with all that.
We male chauvinists are still animals and it's useless to usk us to stop glancing at perfect young girls. We drool over them, over their curves because part of our stubborn inbuilt sofware impulses us towards them automatically. But if we are able to use part of a recent heritage, our brain cortex, if we have more sense, act more like humans and be less primitive, we'll realize these new women, those angry women who demand, work, produce, nag and bitch, are the biggest challenge and therefore much more stimulating, are the most fun, the ones with whom a lasting relationship can be established because it is based on a lot more than hugs and kisses or quickies followed by emptyness. These women share ideas, friendship, passions and curiosity over what really matters, a thirst for longevity and knowledge.
So guys, go get those angry women!!!

Dra Cata

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catamd says on May 19, 2009, 21:43:

So, how did that translation go??? Did you guys enjoy this as much as I did?? LOL
About the book, it's one every young girl should read....just for girls!!!

Dra Cata

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catamd says on May 19, 2009, 21:46:

Tks!!! I did my best!!! Can't wait to see what some specimes have to say about this!!!

Dra Cata

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catamd says on May 19, 2009, 23:57:

As a matter of fact I'm kind of looking forward to reading the negative reactions....lol!!

Dra Cata

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 20, 2009, 07:32:

Wonderful translation Cata:)
Lisa, I just lifted it from an expat Colombian mailing list I read and occasionally participate.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 20, 2009, 07:45:

Brilliant text, Desi, truly brilliant!

Can give us a little information about Hector Abad Faciolince?

Better to have tried and failed than having regrets all your life about what you MIGHT have missed

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Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 20, 2009, 07:53:

Many thanks Roberto Szidon!

Better to have tried and failed than having regrets all your life about what you MIGHT have missed

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 20, 2009, 10:26:

Cata you may not get any reactions because the OP is in Spanish. Start a new post with YOUR translation and under your own handle, in English and I'm sure there'll be a lively debate.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 20, 2009, 10:43:

Desi,

"and I'm sure there'll be a lively debate"

Pah! Men are such cowards they'll never REALLY discuss this.

By "really", I mean "really" - beyond the obvious "so-called funny", and obvious, comments such a subject is bound to attract...

This text is about male atavism... About as easy to change/accept as trying to square the circle. But good luck!

P.S.: And since the author is Colombian, it should be moved in the Colombian section :-)

Better to have tried and failed than having regrets all your life about what you MIGHT have missed

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 20, 2009, 10:52:

Dar, not ALL the men who write here are neanderthals.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 20, 2009, 11:10:

Desi,

As the author himself wrote, 96% are... ;-)

As the author also rightly pointed out, the topic is about reconciling "herencia y cultura". The former is utterly objective. It's about atavism and genes. The latter is more relative, especially if tempered with a modicum of intelligence and/or humanism.

Dealing with this topic, as a male, is trying to understand if one's culture (and intelligence) can over-ride our own genetic atavism.

Most (96%) can't. The worst become rapists or beat their wives.
Some (4%) can but, by reaction, they usually become ardent feminists to justify themselves

It's not a question of "averages" here... There are no greys areas and it's definitely a "black OR white" situation.

P.S.: No need to mention personality which becomes more or less "finite" at the age of 18. Behavorial attitudes are the safety valves of one's own personality although, to be fair they become more important/relevant as one gets older.

Better to have tried and failed than having regrets all your life about what you MIGHT have missed

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 20, 2009, 11:15:

Yes, but isn't atavism culturally influenced too? I mean, aren't certain cultures more accepting of genetic atavism than others?

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Lisa Zee says on May 20, 2009, 11:22:

It been said that H.Abad Faciolince, will be as big as Garcia Marques. Next time I go to Medellin I`ll be talking to him, and telling him how much I enjoyed reading "El Olvido Que Seremos". He is a relative of mine, we share the same nephews, and we go spend time at the finca in Tamesis. (My avatar is at that finca, we are riding his sister horses).

La vida sera' contigo tan justa como lo eres con los dema's.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 20, 2009, 11:25:

Lisa that's wonderful he must be a truly interesting person.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Lisa Zee says on May 20, 2009, 11:37:

It was very cool to me to read that book, when he writes about his father, and to know that 3 of my brothers had him as a professor at the U de A, and he talks about his father`s grandson, (his grand nephew) that is my nieces`s husband!.
He is brilliant I love anything he writes.

La vida sera' contigo tan justa como lo eres con los dema's.

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Man Tequila says on May 20, 2009, 12:21:

Ay, que ridículo sea este artículo, pero me gustó. Es verdad que muchos hombres prefieren las mujeres sumisas, y es una lastima -- mujeres con pilas e inteligencia, autenticidad y humor son mucho más interesantes que una chica con nada más que una cara linda.

Los hombres son animalitos e infrahumanos? Esta actitud es buena sátira, y sin duda muchas mujeres estan de acuredo. La realidad es no hay nuevas mujeres, no existen, pero hay muchos bobos con ideales pocos realistas. La belleza es mucho menos importante que la avispidad y otras buenas calidades. Pero una buena relación tiene igualidad sin enfado,respeto con compromiso. Hay muchas chicas bravas, y el problema es que las calidades "tradicionales" que denigran el escritor son también una parte importante del mosaico feminino... y tambíen son dignos de elogios. Un mujer puede ser brava, y ser completa, sino no son las mismas cosas.

Y qúe pasó con la fora de castellano? Ay, perdonéme mi gramática fea y palabras mal escogidas.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 20, 2009, 12:54:

Las bravas son completas. lo del "bravo" sería entre comillas, No pertenezco a esa raza de mujeres, nací en otra epoca y me criaron con otros valores. No creo mucho en el conflicto, mas bien en la conciliación. Me falta ser mas contundente, mas "brava" pero el genio y la figura hasta la sepultura. Es cuestión de las generaciones; mi hija es una de ellas y no creo que nadie le encuentra muchos defectos; se casó con un hombre solido y fiel, estable como el suelo de granito de estas tierras, moderno y sin prejuicios y la adora. Ella tiene un genio del diablo: es una de las mujeres mas malgeniadas que conozco. Tambien una de las mujeres mas nobles, leales, solidarias y dulces que conozco. Una madre excelente, una esposa leal, una mujer completa, pero brava....si lo es.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 20, 2009, 13:34:

Desi,

"Yes, but isn't atavism culturally influenced too?"

Ideally, yes... On the ground, no.

Atavism is gene-controlled - culture can only polish the ensuing behaviour.

"I mean, aren't certain cultures more accepting of genetic atavism than others?"

Nope, by definition, you have no control over your genes. Culture is a thin veneer. And don't underestimate the judeo-christianism influence (or other religions) which (rightly or wrongly) influence us.

20 000 years ago, things were much simple: If you coveted a woman, you simply killed your competitors and raped her. This is always how the genes of the "strongest" were perpuated.

Nowadays, it's illegal for you to kill your competitors and to rape women. That's why the males losers were normally castrated (so that they couldn't reproduce themselves) and why captive women were systematically raped (so that the genes of the male winners could endure). But males haven't changed THAT much. Sheer physical strength has been replaced by other forms of power: money, influence, etc...

Even in 2009, imagine a society where killing your competitors and raping women would be allowed (i.e. be legal).... What do you think would happen? We'd immediately go back 20 000 years - without a glitch and without having any second thoughts...

You want/need a proof? Look what happened in the relatively recent Balkans war in Europe where Serbs systematically killed the men and made a point of systemetically impregnating their women so that only "the strongest babies" would be born.

Nothing new - and nothing has really has changed. Sorry to disappoint you but, from a mere atavistic point of view, the Neanderthal man is still the rule among most males.

P.S.: Amazingly enough, even now, most religions perpetuates the myth that women should be "obedient" to their husband... And I'm not even mentioning the very concept of "conjugal duty/right" which, as we all know, simply means for a woman to have to lie on her back and spread her legs whenever her husband feels like it. Nope, males haven't changed much in the last 20 000 years... "Culture" only, or occasionally, managed to repress some obvious males traits - REPRESS being the key word.

Better to have tried and failed than having regrets all your life about what you MIGHT have missed

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 20, 2009, 13:56:

What a letdown, Dar.

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Man Tequila says on May 20, 2009, 14:05:

This article is written to appeal to women, not men. I suspect many women will think that this is because it dares criticize men, challenges stereotypes, embraces "the new role of women" and more realistic ideals, and so forth.

The reality is that women also, and to an equal degree, fall guilty to social and private ideals. I am all in favour of authenticity, realism and equality. If men denigrate women, the reverse is certainly true, and women can certainly do this with equal fervour and lack of diplomacy and manners. There is no shortage of denigrating words in general, and ther reality is many hope to achieve power over men and women for its own sake, making the scope of this article more limited than the de facto application of power.

There is a difference between a harsh mind and strong will. The idea of a submissive and beautiful female is cerrtainly omnipresent, but it is an ideal. Is it wrong to want some degree of beauty or proper behaviour, to enjoy nice speech or someone who is not always serious? This article would have us believe these are flaws instead of the wonderful spectrum of femininity... who among us would rather be among grouches and louts? Is it wrong, or rational, to want a partner with the social skills and humanity to try to raise kids to the best of their ability and look after a house? People who take their cues from fashion magazines may have their heads firmly in the clouds, but frankly, both sexes seek this ideal in their mate.

This steroetype of the new woman who cannot be intimidated, bossed around, who is never submissive and who challenge what they do not believe in... is nothing new. Strong women have existed in many societies and many years. I think people enjoy flattery, and modern women enjoy the idea that they represent some pinnacle of evolution. I would not, myself, date a woman who is just a pretty face and lacks skills, humour, intelligence and the ability to diplomatically criticize and challenge things. But without humour, intelligence and grace, this desire for dominance is just as unpleasant when manifested (or womanifested) by a person of either gender... and men and women are far more similar than dissimilar. Men are not too cowardly to discuss this, and most of the young men I know accept this and are do not subscribe to the chauvinism of their forefathers and the stereotypes this article assumes.

Women as well as men make mistakes, and are subject to the perils and pernicousness of vanity and egoisme. I think most want equality, and not sainthood, but this article places women on a pedestal and does not seek equality -- nor do some women who believe feminism means men are not needed, or are even animals or infrahuman. I am a feminist, but first a humanist, and would not go gently into the good night where I agree with the childish subjugation of anyone, including men.

People grow old, men and women, with varying degrees of acceptance, desire for lost youth and vanity. The thirst for longevity is not always consistent with what the fates have in store, the desire for knowledge and self-improvement is the most attractive quality in many people. A complete woman can be stimulating without being angry, sexy without being beautiful, loyal to her beliefs without being rude. The response to this article has been telling -- men are cowards, mindless, chauvinist, neandrathals and inattentive. Men have many flaws, but one does not seek equally by redressing past wrongs with too much enthusiasm. The article raises some valid points and concerns, and is good if understood as satire and in a spirit of self-iimprovement. As always, people interpret things differently and too literally, and it would also be possible to see this article as self-serving, insulting, promoting outdated stereotypes that may have been modified in recent years and using the name of equality to promote something different. Let us praise women for their inner beauty and authenticity, and not forget the fine qualities that make them likable as well as human.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 20, 2009, 14:25:

When I first read that text I thought wow, here's a man who actually LIKES women! Not just needs them or uses them, but who also likes women, feels comfortable with women, appreciates women and would probably be a great FRIEND to a woman.
There are too many guys who can't see beyond the obvious: women are there for them only to fullfill some primordial NEED, some biological NECESSITY, but not as friends, not as buddies, not as people to share your time, your interests, your passions, your leisure. They miss the whole point: women are HUMAN BEINGS first, women after that. This biological and genetical determinism is the greatest ENEMY of normal, enjoyable relationship between men and women.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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pedro (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 20, 2009, 15:09:

Excellent analysis, Man T.

"this may seem a strange post but it is not...when in colombia men need to be aware that colombia women may try to be seductive and entice a travelling gringo to have sex with them..to be forewarned is to be forearmed..." -- pow wow

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Lisa Zee says on May 20, 2009, 15:22:

Well said Roberto.

Desi this is a great post, very refreshing.

La vida sera' contigo tan justa como lo eres con los dema's.

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Man Tequila says on May 20, 2009, 15:55:

What was well said about Roberto calling men at PBH chauvinist, unintellectual and unconstructive, in English? I think Cata's translation was very good. And my point was that all people are human beings. I do not particularly like macho behaviour nor the stupid stereotypes where this leads. I agree with the article that superficial things are overemphasized and that equality is an ideal. This article may be a light in the darkness for those who indulge in such behaviour, but I also would not accept all these criticisms at face value, nor think all of them apply to 96% of men.

I think men, everyone, should have enough self-respect to demand to be treated as human beings too, not something animalistic and infrahumano. It is possible to promote the feminine without putting men down. The author may like women, as I do. He may also believe men are human. The article is well written, and the comments less refreshing and more revealing than one might expect.

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Man Tequila says on May 20, 2009, 15:57:

"Men at some time are masters of their fates:
The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves, that we are underlings."

Men are also subjugated by man. No one is a victim without their consent, and women as well as men should stand up.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 20, 2009, 16:20:

I may well be wrong, but the way I see it is that the article is not INTENDED to be a balanced analysis but rather a satire on the the typical machista attitude towards women, especially in Latin America. I never held it be the the universal truth as I know well enough that we ALL are human beings first and one of the worst problems in the relationships between men and women is the polarization and the seeking of the ultra feminine female/alpha male model. There is NO inherent virtue in such a setup; perhaps there was in the world of our forefathers, but the world has spinned around its axes a few times after that and women and men have adapted to new patterns of defining their relationships. There are always throwbacks, people who cannot change with the changing times and they will be detracing their steps and looking for their partners in societies that have not had the sam type of social development and dynamics.

Bringing up these issues with the generation of my children, now young adults, always amazes me and leaves me with a sensation of comfort and optimism: the men in my children's generation take these things FOR GRANTED. They would not WANT a woman who cannot stand on her own two feet and have opinions of her own.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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pedro (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 20, 2009, 16:35:

Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 20, 2009, 16:20 (today): flag

I never held it be the the universal truth as I know well enough that we ALL are human beings first and one of the worst problems in the relationships between men and women is the polarization and the seeking of the ultra feminine female/alpha male model. There is NO inherent virtue in such a setup;
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Well, it's important not to limit the potential of either men or women due to archaic beliefs. But I would also argue the exact opposite of what you said above. That one of the worst problems in relationships is denying male / female roles and what each party needs out of the union. The needs of the man and woman may be completely different in nature.

We are all human beings, and we are all animals too. You can't intellectualise away the existence of instincts, drives and such.

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Man Tequila says on May 20, 2009, 16:35:

Estoy de acuerdo, y no tengo ningún problema con el artículo como sátira. Pero 96% de los hombres tan macho? No lo creo. No soy defensor de los bobos.

Of course the article is not intended to be balanced. The men I know in real life are much more balanced than the article suggests, making it seem quaint. The people on PBH I have met are equally balanced and unbalanced. ;)

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Man Tequila says on May 20, 2009, 16:38:

"de noche todos los gatos son pardos"

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Man Tequila says on May 20, 2009, 16:44:

And those who play with cats expect to be scratched. ;)

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catamd says on May 20, 2009, 16:50:

De noche todos los gatos son pardos...it's true...but MT you have to accept female stereotypes have definitely changed during the last few years. Working succesful women will simply NOT stand any more crap from chauvinist males, and unfortunately in Colombia, up the generation before mine, women were instructed to stay at home, work as little as they could, serve their husbands and take care of the kids and the home. Studying was discouraged. If a woman managed to get a job because of her skills or her knowledge, she obviously never earn the same amount of money a guy with a similar position did, nor she would be allowed to rise in a company, let alone have an executive position. This goes on even as we speak. Laws in Colombia still have to be made to make sure a certain percentage of individuals in a political party are women. This shouldn't be so. This generation has changed the female concept entirely. But male chauvinism has still a long way to go. What should be a turn on for guys simply scares them because they feel threatened in their masculinity when they compete against a woman in the workplace, and don't get me started about household issues when a woman happens to earn more than her husband does. It's still an issue here, a big one. Time surely will take care of that disparity and make things even, but the truth is you see more "angry" (berracas!!!") women everyday and less women who still depend on their husbands, not only finantially speaking, but emotionally, which is an even worse form of slavery.
I am not in favor of masculinization of the female role, we still love to take care of our guys and our families, we love to be spoiled and pampered, but we need to be taken seriously and the fashion model or prepago ideal woman should turn into a beautiful ideal woman, of course, but with enough brains to make her beauty come even stronger from the inside, not only the package!

Dra Cata

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Lisa Zee says on May 20, 2009, 17:02:

I love this...

Envejecen, como nosotros, y ya no tienen piel ni senos de veinteañeras (mirémonos el pecho también nosotros y los pies, las mejillas, los poquísimos pelos), las hormonas les dan ciclos de euforia y mal genio, pero son sabias para vivir y para amar y si alguna vez en la vida se necesita un consejo sensato (se necesita siempre, a diario), o una estrategia útil en el trabajo, o una maniobra acertada para ser más felices, ellas te lo darán, no las peladitas de piel y tetas perfectas, aunque estas sean la delicia con la que soñamos, un sueño que cuando se realiza ya ni sabemos qué hacer con todo eso.

AMEN!!!

Boy this one will hit hard those older gentlemen looking for really young pretty faces, and and nice as**. We have to look at the mirror and soul first, then go looking for someone comparable, not just looks. WOW this man writes excellent.

La vida sera' contigo tan justa como lo eres con los dema's.

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Man Tequila says on May 20, 2009, 17:05:

First of all, congratulations on your translation. Espero que un día pueda hablar espanol con la facilidad de su inglés.

I agree with all of that. I accept female stereotypes have changed for the better in recent times, and I like women who stand up for their beliefs or do what they can to the best of their ability. It is tragic when this is limited by macho behaviour or social convention, and I agree this is still too often the case, maybe more so in Colombia.

The author is skillful but the context is not clear. If it is to change behaviour of those who would control others for a misperceived benefit, or if it is a satirical piece on stereotypes, or if it is a fluff piece for woman's magazines for those who would stereotype the men who have also changed their beliefs and behaviour (and it is a lot more than 4%)... '

I am not a fan of zero-sum games (It is clearly false men do better when women suffer and vice versa, just as it is clearly true immgration is helpful for most economies and immigrants do not rob people of jobs), and while I embrace these supposedly "masculine" qualities of self-reliance, speaking the truth and displaying intelligence in women, one should not negate supposedly ""feminine" qualities of grace and tact, nor belittle important skills and work such as raising children and maintaining a household. A complete woman balances all of these things, and I don't have a clue how they do this. Hats off to women! Men are flawed, but do not need to be denigrated to celebrate women.

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catamd says on May 20, 2009, 17:12:

Totally agree with you MT. It's not about being masculine, it's about having the same rights and privileges as men do, not having to take any crap from sexist bosses or company policies and standing up against discrimination and violence. The best way to do so is to have the right to work and not depend economically on a husband or boyfriend. That's where it all starts. But never, ever does that mean a woman has to stop being feminine or neglect her family. All extremes are negative. It's about balancing it all, and women have proved they can be outstanding mothers and wives and at the same time achieve all they dream of career-wise.

Dra Cata

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Man Tequila says on May 20, 2009, 17:48:

Don't see how any sensible man could argue with that.

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paisa29 says on May 22, 2009, 10:29:

Desi... muchas gracias por el artículo, es muy interesante,hay algunas cosas con las que estoy de acuerdo y otras que no tanto, pero lo que mas me gustó fue el hecho de que por fin podemos encontrar en temas mas profundos en el foro, donde las mújeres tenemos la oportunidad de expresarnos sin que nos saboteen y tambien de compartir las opiniones de algunos hombres que siempre nos han tratado con repeto, entonces gracias a ellos tambien por participar.

"Fill the earth with the light and warmth of hospitality" Conrad Hilton

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