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Ecuador wins!

No doubt about it. Correa played this very well.

By manINred on Mar 7, 2008, 13:27 in Friendly Talkzone.

juancegomez says on Mar 7, 2008, 13:37:

Ignoring some of his other, quite aggressive statements and the collaboration of other leaders during the summit, including the host and Uribe himself at the end...yes.

Diplomatically speaking, it's a win for Correa.

cali373 says on Mar 7, 2008, 13:41:

Does that mean this cock fight will be over soon.

Smile if you are a thinker!

manINred says on Mar 7, 2008, 13:42:

At least it's over:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7284597.stm

Well, for the time being.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 7, 2008, 13:44:

It seems to be over, for the time being. They've kissed, shaken hands, made up and sang kumbaya. I'm very happy, it was worth the hours of spent watching the speeches.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

msaucey says on Mar 7, 2008, 13:47:

I'm glad it's over and that there is no immediate war... for the time being.... They at least all were shaking hands...

The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. - CS Lewis

manINred says on Mar 7, 2008, 13:48:

"it was worth the hours of spent watching the speeches"

Yep definitely!

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 7, 2008, 13:52:

well we will beat them in football wait and see

engage brain before opening mouth

Simon says on Mar 7, 2008, 13:58:

Damn...and I was itching to go kick some Venezuelan ass!

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:00:

Actually, I think Uribe handled himself pretty well. He was under a lot of pressure, not having the Big Daddy there to defend him. He was not scoring any points with the ladies, Kirchener and Bachelet, but he held his ground and made an impression as an honest and responsible person and leader. It's not a good idea to be at odds with your nearest neighbours, even if you have a powerful ally further away.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:05:

oh buggy stop being a pussy cat, go and have a nap

y que VIVA URIBE CARAJO!!!!

engage brain before opening mouth

robi666 says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:12:

None with some intelligence would not appreciate the way Uribe talked.
Coincise, rational, non-rhetoric, giving datas, as opposed to the Chavez, Correa duo.
I like his style, he looks like an hard worker and a clever nerd.
Chavez and Correa seem presidents of a banana republic.

As I wrote on another thread, Chavez just wants the computer documents deleted form the map and he is asking that to forget about the Colombian raid in Ecuador.
He is obviously guilty of helping out FARC, who'd think differently is gullible or just in bad faith.
About Correa, I still believe things ran out of his hands.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

manINred says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:13:

buggy, that makes Chavez Ortega and Correa just as bad for shaking hands with a warmongering paramilitary man who invades their land (Uribe segun ellos)!

jonas says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:15:

No se como es en tu pais pero aqui eso se llama politica.

What I have, I do not want to lose, but Where I am I do not want to stay, but those I love, I do not want to leave, but those I know I no longer want to see, but Where I die, I do not want to go;I want to stay where I have never been

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:15:

OH pardon my French buggy. as You wish Sr

Que viva Uribe... jolly good!!!!

engage brain before opening mouth

robi666 says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:16:

Could you imagine France getting 2 kms. into Italy for a criminal, in a desolate land on the Alps, Italy accusing France of military aggression, Italy and France on the border of a war and Germany jumping in to defend Italy and move its troops?

You can see it just in South America... and not thanks to Uribe. Pathetic.

LDW says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:17:

The fuckheads are Chavez and Correa. The slut is Kirchner.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:18:

well you haven't got a dick** as a president like Venezuela does...

engage brain before opening mouth

robi666 says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:19:

Buggy, come on... don't tell me that going two kms. into Ecuador and after excusing for it and explaining why, deserves all this mess...

Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:20:

"Chavez and Correa seem presidents of a banana republic."

Totally true, Robi.

I guess that makes Venezuela the only member of OPEC and a Banana Republic at the same time.

Oh, wait, I guess he's got Nigeria in contention for that, too.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:21:

Why this need to speak on such negative terms about everybody? What is your major malfunction, sir?

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:22:

:)) desi are you talking to Monsieur buggy?

engage brain before opening mouth

tejasmarcos says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:23:

they should have sent the stealth and no one would be the wiser ;)

my glass is getting shorter on whiskey, ice and water...

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:26:

Monsieur buggy come on......here nobody won... lets wait and see

engage brain before opening mouth

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:28:

but did you see Correa's eyes? come on.....

engage brain before opening mouth

muchacho_escondido says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:29:

LOL, Chavez and Uribe embraced?

And all the Latin American politicians were shouting: "BEE-SI-ITO!", "BEE-SIITO!".

Just kidding :)

Glad it's over for now, though. Really glad. I hate conflicts of all varieties. In this case it's really just one people and one culture in Colombia, Venezuela or Ecuador-- would be tragic and absurd if greed and ambition made them enemies. There are enough challenges in that part of the world already.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:30:

No I was talking to Monsieur LDW :)

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

tejasmarcos says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:34:

the obvious leverage is the information on the computers. chavez and correa know uribe has it. it does not make sense for uribe to stand on that evidence if he has no intention to push the envelope and insist on an international trial.

i don't think this one is over yet. as a matter of fact, i think the fun has just begun.

my glass is getting shorter on whiskey, ice and water...

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:34:

oh I see you know that name Kirchner. some how i related with Kirsch (the brandy) or the Kier Royale"

engage brain before opening mouth

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:37:

I agree tejasmarcos I think they were scare of what Uribe found out...

engage brain before opening mouth

expatriate says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:40:

Who is going to clean up the unexploded cluster bomblets just inside of Ecuador?

podborski says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:41:

sorry, but what did colombia lose?

from where I sit they got rid of a top FARC leader and gave up exactly what?

manINred says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:46:

Ecuador wins in that they look very, very good coming out of this, pardoning Colombia's illegal infraction and reinstating diplomatic ties with Colombia. As such, Colombia are seen as the ones in the wrong by the Latin American community, and that was made clear at the summit today.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:50:

thanks Buggy for the info, very interesting.... I have only try the royal... very nice...but I certanly have to try the other ones

engage brain before opening mouth

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:50:

I even copy and paste and SAVE the info in case one day you get deleted :))))

engage brain before opening mouth

podborski says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:51:

I'll take real results over 'perception' any day of the week

and not like any LA leader was a fan of Uribe before, so nothing's changed

RAAAY says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:51:

LOL...........wise move.

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:55:

You're a smart gal, kat.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

msaucey says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:56:

That would be bad for the good... Even if it may seem that Colombia did act out of line crossing into Ecuador, it's not like they did it to take over Ecuador, they did it to kill a HUGE marrano, and they did.... Killing Reyes was a GREAT feat....

It's not the first time that governments have to do something without speaking and apologize later.... The bottom line is.... We crossed, killed the marrano, apologized and now we can see what will be the next step....

I personally don't think that Correa would have done anything if it weren't for the fact that Chavez was pushing him to blow this out of proportion.... We all know that there's an invisible line between Colombia - Ecuador and Colombia - Venezuela.... Malparido de Chavez is just upset it didn't happen on his side of the border so that he can get the most media attention.... And yes, all the other Leftist Leaders of Latin America joined party boat....

I think Uribe did a great job after all it was pretty much 5 on 1....

The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. - CS Lewis

manINred says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:59:

Well, the real results are that Colombia got what they wanted. But so too did Ecuador.

And Ecuador got something from nothing. They made a big deal out of this, and come out the good guys. They have real results, from nothing. Colombia, well, in the end did act illegally.

But the best speaker of the night... URIBE!

billyb says on Mar 7, 2008, 14:59:

I say Colombia won. Sure we took some diplomatic lumps, but they came from Chavvies' lapdogs, so they mean less than zero. On the other hand, Uribe killed the FARC's de-facto number one (not to mention another pig from el secretariado just his just deserves) and exposed both correa and chavez for what they were, supporters of terrorism and those accusations will linger and they will lose international prestige for it. So on balance, i say Colombia came out way ahead. BTW Desi, Uribe doesn't need Big Daddy, as he has amply shown, he is Big Daddy. The one that needed his hand held was correa, who had to have his puppet master back him and then went around all SA crying to the other presidents, now that is a little wanker.

Simon says on Mar 7, 2008, 15:06:

Very well said, billyb!

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 7, 2008, 15:09:

I think he looked a little lost there. The other guys let him off the hook.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 7, 2008, 15:11:

the only thing i have to say is ... we know our neighbors now uhmmmm

engage brain before opening mouth

manINred says on Mar 7, 2008, 15:11:

This in relation to who comes out of the summit... trust me, today there was no love shown towards Colombia, except at the end, when Correa WANTED to!

In the end, as has been alluded to, all's good, it is really the FARC that lose out most

billyb says on Mar 7, 2008, 15:14:

When do those pigs in the 'hood show any love for Colombia anyways? They do what their paymaster in venezuela tells them. Lost? Desi, Uribe got all he wanted, plus no sanctions.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 7, 2008, 15:16:

Que viva URIBE CARAJO!!!!

opps sorry monsieur buggy

engage brain before opening mouth

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 7, 2008, 15:22:

oh well after all this excitement today is time for my bedtime...
see what's happen tomorrow... maybe something new in the Gazza strip *yawn*

engage brain before opening mouth

msaucey says on Mar 7, 2008, 15:24:

Kat... I don't think I've seen you curse soo much in one day... I thought you were drinking all day, since the summit got you all riled up....

The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. - CS Lewis

LDW says on Mar 7, 2008, 15:24:

BUGGY..............

I suggest you stick to your explanations on refreshments served in France.

They are much more interesting, informative, and sensible than your application of logic to things political.

manINred says on Mar 7, 2008, 15:26:

Hardly ever Billyb, but Argentina and Brasil sure ripped into the country!

Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 7, 2008, 15:26:

yeah, billy, he was looking a little pale'n shaky there. I guess the other guys felt a little sorry for him and let him off the hook. The ladies were not impressed by the little guy.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 7, 2008, 15:27:

LOL mssaucey, you see what Chavez made me do!!!

engage brain before opening mouth

Ctg Bound says on Mar 7, 2008, 15:29:

kat1, I thought you had gone to bed with sweet dreams about a certain person eyes.

msaucey says on Mar 7, 2008, 15:31:

All I saw was evil in those eyes.... Anyone that is willing to stand there an lie with those eyes, well is just scum.... IMHO

The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. - CS Lewis

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 7, 2008, 15:32:

I am but before that even if he got pretty eyes still I don't trust him and Chavez...hmmmmm

and buggy

engage brain before opening mouth

Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 7, 2008, 15:39:

I don't know, msaucey....I saw no evil in those eyes...a little deceit perhaps, but then again, I saw that in the eyes of almost everybody there.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

msaucey says on Mar 7, 2008, 15:42:

Okay, I'm biased and an Uribe supporter....

But, still, I really think it would have been different if it would have been different if it was just Uribe and Correa, without the input of the others....

The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. - CS Lewis

Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 7, 2008, 15:52:

Oh, everybody is an Uribe supporter here, except me. I have no great love for the little paisa. Too neoliberal, too global,too TLC, too authoritarian, too conservative, too insecure, too proud, too arrogant, too bad temper, too belligerent, too close to the biggest thugs, criminals and monsters, the paras, too good buddy to too many really bad people,

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

RAAAY says on Mar 7, 2008, 16:01:

Desi.........do you have a suggestion as to who would have been a better President over the last 6 years.......

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

tejasmarcos says on Mar 7, 2008, 16:03:

desi - what do you think about uribe? ;)

my glass is getting shorter on whiskey, ice and water...

Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 7, 2008, 16:04:

No, not really.
I had another candidate in my mind two years ago, though.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

Man Tequila says on Mar 7, 2008, 16:12:

Ecuador did have their sovereignity violated and there may be yet evidence linking them to FARC, since I am unaware of previous claims they were negotiating for Betancourt (and haven't been looking for them).

They got an apology and came off looking somewhat insecure. They played the hand as best they could, but to say they won is extreme. Colombia did not descend into so much brinksmanship and would seem to have gained against FARC?

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

goin_south says on Mar 7, 2008, 17:05:

OH, COME ON NOW,.....
DESI.......Desi, por favor!!
LET'S .......
......................................."FEEL THE LOVE".....
..........PARA TIO URIBE!

Just because he's triangled in by Nic, Ec, y Ven.... you call him 'insecure'...
The man has a tough job.
I'm not saying he's a saint.
But, as has been reiterated time and time again,
Colombia's statistics are much better since Uncle Al has been around.

Hey..... donde es ....Sr.....Tertius?
hiding across the border?

y, un mil gracias.

billyb says on Mar 7, 2008, 17:06:

Uribe took on all those cowardly pack of rats and was still standing at the end. Cooreeo, evn after running to sugar daddy chavez to calll in all the favors he had coming when he bought the most of those LA presidents and after crying to everybody and their mother, still didn't get what he wanted which was condemnationof Coombia. Who lost? Desi, some of those europansy leaders you guys have could take a lesson in how to be baron from Uribe.

goin_south says on Mar 7, 2008, 17:07:

Hat's Offf!
to..............Uribe... a lil man... WITH A BIG MAN COMPLEX!
Jjejej

y, un mil gracias.

billyb says on Mar 7, 2008, 17:08:

I'm beggining to get worried that our good friend T might have been "vacationing" just south of the ecuador border, if you get my drift ;))

goin_south says on Mar 7, 2008, 17:08:

Billy! Break out the ....Marinero Yerri!

y, un mil gracias.

billyb says on Mar 7, 2008, 17:10:

"Ecuador did have their sovereignity violated and there may be yet evidence linking them to FARC, since I am unaware of previous claims they were negotiating for Betancourt (and haven't been looking for them)."

correa said today that was probably just more crap. Read the article in the link and you will see that half of the ecuadorean ministers don't know what lies the other half is telling, they need toget together and coordinate their lying.

http://www.elpais.com.co/paisonline/notas/Marzo072008/desmienten.html

As the days go by, Colombia looks better and better and the worms are being exposed.

goin_south says on Mar 7, 2008, 17:10:

jjejjejjj... wellll... maybe he was,....

y, un mil gracias.

goin_south says on Mar 7, 2008, 17:11:

the worms are .... turning... on their own.

y, un mil gracias.

billyb says on Mar 7, 2008, 17:12:

Desi, your candidate of 2 years ago, would have bent over and let chavez and correa do what they would with him and Colombia, that is why Uribe bitchslapped him 3 to 1 in the election.

billyb says on Mar 7, 2008, 17:14:

If they keep killing these rats, i am going to go broke breaking out expensive bottles of wine to celebrate.

robi666 says on Mar 7, 2008, 17:14:

Whatever happened today and however you may interpret it, one thing is clear: Colombia is pretty isolated in Latin America, and looking at the kind of support and declaration coming from Europe, Colombia must give a big THANKS to the US for being at its side.

Without it, we would have witnessed a different and more aggressive attack coming from Europe and probably a war from Venezuela.

billyb says on Mar 7, 2008, 17:18:

Along that vain, i think Colombia better startshopping for SAM batteries ASAP.

pedro says on Mar 7, 2008, 17:19:

Robi, very true. One outcome of this whole shitstorm is that people found out who their friends are when the heat is on.

The USA deserves recognition and heartfelt gratitude from Colombians for its support. Especially for standing up to be counted at a time when it wasn't completely convenient to give that support.

que nota!

billyb says on Mar 7, 2008, 17:20:

When your back is against the wall as a country, who's backing really matters, the EU's? Hahaha, now that's a joke. I will take the US anytime.

robi666 says on Mar 7, 2008, 17:27:

I can tell you that we read something different here from what they read in Italy. I'd bet the same about France.
I don't know, there must be a kind of big reef in the middle of Atlantic.

It is kind of frustrating talking with my friends back home.

robi666 says on Mar 7, 2008, 17:33:

Another thing that was clear from the beginning to me, it is that Chavez organized the whole mess for one subtle aim: make Uribe put aside the proves contained in RR's computer.

He got really scared. And this is the only way he could get along with it.

goin_south says on Mar 7, 2008, 17:34:

I'm still wanderin.....
how aNYOneinRed configures ...
a win for Ecuador?
wtf?

y, un mil gracias.

goin_south says on Mar 7, 2008, 17:35:

I didn't get to watch it;
robi... did Uribe not expose to the world,.. what was on RR's computadora?

y, un mil gracias.

fecherklyn says on Mar 7, 2008, 17:37:

Desideria, to quote you:

"Oh, everybody is an Uribe supporter here, except me. I have no great love for the little paisa. Too neoliberal, too global,too TLC, too authoritarian, too conservative, too insecure, too proud, too arrogant, too bad temper, too belligerent, too close to the biggest thugs, criminals and monsters, the paras, too good buddy to too many really bad people".

Why am I surprised to see such comments from a "moderator"? I am surprised because I thought moderators were supposed to expunge all personal bias from the exercise of their functions?

To cite you, "Uribe is TOO......". But is Chavez not "TOO ....."? Why chastise Uribe so much? One is surrounded by candidates if one wishes to keep ones eyes open!

I glean from MANY of your comments (as a moderator) that you lean to social/left wing politics and are very receptive to the accusations of past associations of Uribe and the Colombian paramilitary. If this is true, little should seperate our baseline values except that perhaps I can be a little less receptive and more understanding of Uribe's alleged links to the early days of the paramilitary.

Lets "air" this a little.

Although I was not in Colombia in the "earlier" days, I understand from my wife's family that, mostly, one had little choice about being "neutral". Beyond the social divide that was created by giving a voice to the impoverished and their attraction to new political parties that offered an "ear"to their needs was a choice between the ways to achieve their aims. From this was spawned the urgings of a "revolutionary" message (finally taken up in the name of the FARC) that only force could make the "privileged" give up their gains. Thus, those who had virtually "anything" were provoked into trying to protect it. Few people were spared being the necessity of taking sides. My wife's family are witness to this carnage with family divisions and many dead.

To my mind, this is roughly where Venezuela is today.

So Desideria, are you sure you can be a critic from the comfort of your armchair in Scandinavia? Had you been in Colombia during this period what side of the fence would you have laid your bed......as, at the time, it was very difficult to take a position of equilibrium. To have socialist tendencies is one thing (I have also lived in Scandinavia and recognise their general appetite for social justice) BUT DO THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS? Do you agree it is appropriate to FORCE one's views on someone else?

In short, I feel you may have allowed your personal views (which I disagree with) to have interfered with your rol;e as a moderator.

goin_south says on Mar 7, 2008, 17:38:

Ecuador Wins!?!!?!

hummmh.. maybe he was watching an ol' 'fotbol' replay...jej

y, un mil gracias.

billyb says on Mar 7, 2008, 17:48:

Fecher, Desi has a right to post her personal opinions as a poster, she is not using her role as moderator to alter or affect the discourse.The fact that she couldn't be more wrong is besides the point ;)

DodgerDogs says on Mar 7, 2008, 17:58:

Desi,
Is a rare bird, but a very intelligent bird , as she loves Colombia and Colombians, but does
not like Uribe.
She has lived in Colombia and traveled in Colombia long before Uribe was President.
If she or anyone else knows Uribe for what he was before, and how his real interest has always been for the Elite Palanca, that does not make her or anyone else a Farc supporter or Colombia hater.

It does how ever make them a intelligent person , with a open eye to the
injustice of Colombian politics.

Mr Uribe Thanx for attacking the Farc, but now go out and help the displaced and quit listening to George Bush .

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.Martin Luther King:

goin_south says on Mar 7, 2008, 18:02:

yeah, robi.. we could have a lil round of applause here,
(in honor, let's say of... the absence of Sr Tertius),,,..
FOR... GWB... he only took one lil walk out to the Lawn of La Casa Blanca...
and assured everyone... that the usa 'would continue to support'....

didn't even have to do a fly-by...jej

y, un mil gracias.

billyb says on Mar 7, 2008, 18:03:

Why would he turn his back on Bush, when Bush was the only one who didn't turn his back on him and Colombia? I don't recall president Haagen Daaz of Sweeden announcing his support for Colombia this week.

goin_south says on Mar 7, 2008, 18:04:

eh, DD... didn't matter if AU was listening...
to GwB
I think Ven, Ec, y Nic... were all listening.

y, un mil gracias.

billyb says on Mar 7, 2008, 18:06:

I hear Bush is going to lease the USS Ronald Reagan to Colombia for a few weeks ;))

DodgerDogs says on Mar 7, 2008, 18:07:

billyb,
The US supported Colombia not just Bush alone. I think blliyb is a cool person and would
drink a beer with him, but that would not make be Republican.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.Martin Luther King:

goin_south says on Mar 7, 2008, 18:09:

' that would not make be Republican.'

Billy... you'd likely have to................'' HELP " 'm drink the beer....
like with everything else in the life of ah.... most.... liberales...jej

y, un mil gracias.

DodgerDogs says on Mar 7, 2008, 18:17:

GS,
I am no liberal , as I do hate GAY rights, and do hate abortions. I believe in the freedom
to own guns and believe in the death penailty, but I do also believe if your fellow man is poor
and hungry , it is the right thing to help them , but never spoil him .

I voted for Reagan and liked Nixon's policy, but the 2 Bushes, and Carter when President
never done anything really to impress me as great men.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.Martin Luther King:

billyb says on Mar 7, 2008, 18:28:

DD, we can agree on on carter, what a POS. GS, i don't know about helping him drink it, but as with most liberales, you would have to buy it for him ;))

DodgerDogs says on Mar 7, 2008, 18:35:

bb,
I will buy your aged whiskey and good ron not cheap stuff.
You just buy the gas for my boat if we go fishing.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.Martin Luther King:

billyb says on Mar 7, 2008, 18:39:

jaja, OK, thanks, i will try to make it up your way soon. BTW, i did say "most liberales", of course you are not one of "most", Has the friend in Cartagena been the land of music?

DodgerDogs says on Mar 7, 2008, 18:43:

He has a new chica from there, and will be bunking at my casa for festival.
If you ever take that route, you know mi casa tu casa.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.Martin Luther King:

billyb says on Mar 7, 2008, 18:46:

Thanks for the offer,

billyb says on Mar 7, 2008, 19:01:

"The BBC's Jeremy McDermott says President Uribe's huge gamble in ordering the air strike that killed Reyes appears to have paid off."

Desi, that is called cojones in Mexico;))

chrispej says on Mar 7, 2008, 19:09:

Ecuador Wins?

Not by a long shot. Correo and Chavez denied accusations by Uribe in front of all of South America. What makes you think Uribe played all his cards? Stay tuned, I think this is going to get very interesting......

goin_south says on Mar 7, 2008, 19:27:

I think the 'Oxford/Haaaavard' Education is beginning to pay off, to chrispej
"President Uribe's huge gamble in ordering the air strike...."
You got 2 no when 2 hold 'm... know when 2 fold 'm

y, un mil gracias.

robi666 says on Mar 7, 2008, 19:27:

Land of music? Jesus, DD and Billy, you have to teach me to like that shit... :) But I have some bottle of aged single malt coming from Europe next month and I will save one for my friends, if they want to stop on the way one day.

DodgerDogs says on Mar 7, 2008, 19:32:

One the best songs from there.

Colombia's best singer

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.Martin Luther King:

billyb says on Mar 7, 2008, 19:35:

Robi, that single malt sure sounds inviting, could even make a cali boy detour to medellin ;))

robi666 says on Mar 7, 2008, 19:38:

...

billyb says on Mar 7, 2008, 19:41:

manINred says on Mar 7, 2008, 19:48:

billyb and going south...

just so we're clear:

When I wrote "Ecuador wins" I was talking about the battle of the summit of Latin America that went on today. I watched most of the excrutiating thing, and was even quite entertained. There is no doubt that Correa came out looking better than Uribe (despite the latter being the best speaker at the summit).

Think of it as a battle. Just a battle called the summit of Latin American leaders in the Dominican Republic. I suggest you watch it.

Now when we look at the situation as a whole, yes, Colombia has won the war. But Colombia won from the outset, they were always going to, against a country like Ecuador that really doesn't have much going for it, no offence to Ecuador.

manINred says on Mar 7, 2008, 19:48:

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go out and do copious amounts of drugs... :)

billyb says on Mar 7, 2008, 19:50:

enjoy ;)

goin_south says on Mar 7, 2008, 19:50:

huh?

clear?

what did you say?

y, un mil gracias.

goin_south says on Mar 7, 2008, 19:52:

yep!
aesthetically speaking from her desires:
According to Kat1:
"Correa ...(was)........ looking better"

that's about it, as for (Chic) Correa and Ec.

y, un mil gracias.

goin_south says on Mar 7, 2008, 19:55:

mIR... we thought you already did ;-)
do a triple double dose,
for the rest of us good folks

y, un mil gracias.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 8, 2008, 00:54:

"Desi, your candidate of 2 years ago, would have bent over and let chavez and correa do what they would with him and Colombia, that is why Uribe bitchslapped him 3 to 1 in the election."

Billy, my candidate of 2 years ago would have never been proud, arrogant and foolish enough to get Colombia in that kind of situation.

There would've been a negotiated peace in Colombia now, or at least a truce and talks. The economy might have been worse, but much of the monies now inverted in waging war would have gone to ensure not just law and order, but also infrastructure, health care and education in places where Uribe has never ever even been or heard of.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 8, 2008, 01:46:

"Why am I surprised to see such comments from a "moderator"? I am surprised because I thought moderators were supposed to expunge all personal bias from the exercise of their functions?" (fercheklyn)

I was not exercising any such function. I was stating a personal opinion.

Had I said: "I support Uribe wholeheartedly and find him an admirable leader with lots if courage and integrity; Mr. Chavez, however is the scum of the earth and his lapdog Correa is a joke...etc." would that have been acceptable opinion from a moderator? Just because it's probably closer to your own?

This is a debate. There are no "wrong" or "right" opinions in a debate.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 8, 2008, 03:10:

Billy wrote "Why would he turn his back on Bush, when Bush was the only one who didn't turn his back on him and Colombia? I don't recall president Haagen Daaz of Sweeden announcing his support for Colombia this week".

president Haagen Daaz

engage brain before opening mouth

podborski says on Mar 8, 2008, 04:13:

Desi why on earth would negotiations have worked 2 years ago when they haven't for the past 40 years? What was different?

Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 8, 2008, 06:43:

They might not, but it might've been easier for my candidate to speak with them than somebody rerpresenting the Colombian oligarchy.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

Ctg Bound says on Mar 8, 2008, 07:08:

Desideria,

I feel that you are living in a leftist day dream.

The FARC are not going to give up all the money they are earning, no differant to the paras.

Some will give up the life, BUT most of those have had plenty of time over the last few years if they wish to from either side, the remainder will have to be given the bullet.

goin_south says on Mar 8, 2008, 07:50:

might, Might, MIGHT.
might not.

y, un mil gracias.

billyb says on Mar 8, 2008, 08:17:

"Desi why on earth would negotiations have worked 2 years ago when they haven't for the past 40 years? What was different?"

Pod, because, if Gaviria closed his eyes and wished really really hard, then good things would have happened, why let reality ruin the dream? jajaja.

billyb says on Mar 8, 2008, 08:20:

"Desi why on earth would negotiations have worked 2 years ago when they haven't for the past 40 years? What was different?'

Yeah, but you can bet who would have dictated the conditions for that truce and peace (and the orders woudld'nt be coming from El Palacio de narino, but instead from miraflores). Desi, for an intelligent person, you are soooo naive, but hey, let's group hug and sing kumbaya ;)

goin_south says on Mar 8, 2008, 08:42:

closed his eyes and wished really really hard
...........well, Colombia IS the LAND OF MAKE BELIEVE...jaj

y, un mil gracias.

tasco66 says on Mar 8, 2008, 08:43:

I don’t know about you, but Correa looks like a pissed school boy to me...

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

goin_south says on Mar 8, 2008, 08:43:

hey billy....any REVELATIONS over night....about how ECUADOR WINS?

y, un mil gracias.

billyb says on Mar 8, 2008, 08:45:

jaja, maybe gaviria could have named Gabriel Garcia Marquez as his defense minister and we could have won the war with magical realism ;)

paisa29 says on Mar 8, 2008, 09:16:

Para mí el ganador es Uribe.... por su cordura, gallardía y diplomacia.

goin_south says on Mar 8, 2008, 09:21:

HEY PAISA29!

y, un mil gracias.

Man Tequila says on Mar 8, 2008, 09:34:

I don't think too many Colombians are disappointed in Uribe at the moment.

There is a good article in the Economist online today questioning Chavez's motives though.

http://www.economist.com/world/la/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10808604

Monpirri says on Mar 8, 2008, 09:42:

The winner is Colombia. They have a good record in diplomatic relations.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

robi666 says on Mar 8, 2008, 09:50:

No Colombia, no Ecuador.

The winner is evidently Chavez. He did not have excuses to be in the fight and he succeeded in his scope: Colombia will not denounce him in front of the international court for the evidences contained in RR computer.
He proved to be a good puppet master, and the puppets were Ecuador, Nicaragua, Brasil, Argentina, Bolivia, etc.

Colombia realized to be pretty isolated in Latin America.

Monpirri says on Mar 8, 2008, 09:55:

Robi666, if that's is the case, you are right, but the last time I read or I saw the news Colombia was proceding to take the case to the United Nations. Do you have the source where I can find out why Colombia decided not to proceed to take Chavez to UN?

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

goin_south says on Mar 8, 2008, 09:59:

monpirri... give 'm a break;
he's tryin to be a good colombian supporter,
but it comes with difficulty; ....es european, I think.

y, un mil gracias.

goin_south says on Mar 8, 2008, 10:00:

(oh,...! Lo siento.... so is Peter.)

y, un mil gracias.

Ctg Bound says on Mar 8, 2008, 10:02:

robi666,

Colombia MAY not denounce him, but will another Country or body, we shall wait and see.

Not that it matters I can't see Chavez lasting in power much longer.

robi666 says on Mar 8, 2008, 10:02:

Monpi,
no, I don't have sources, but it is just a logical end to the story. And I have posted about this to be the logical end many days ago as soon as Chavez went into the fight. Sadly, you could clearly see it coming.
A written book.

Monpirri says on Mar 8, 2008, 10:03:

No entiendo?

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

goin_south says on Mar 8, 2008, 10:05:

wait a daDgum minute;
is there something I didn't know?
DID URIBE GIVE THAT COMPUTER TO CHAVEZ????

y, un mil gracias.

podborski says on Mar 8, 2008, 10:09:

I tend to agree with robi, Chavez gave up nothing and might escape the charges of aiding FARC.

I heard Uribe dropped the charges as part of the deal, but wonder why on earth he would have done that? Venezuela was not harmed, so they had no legitimate complaint.

Chavez also makes it a bit harder for colombia to go after FARC terrorists taking refuge in Venezuela.

The good news is, it might not matter, FARC seems to have serious problems. Chavez is backing the losing horse, as the economist article man t refers to suggests.

Monpirri says on Mar 8, 2008, 10:09:

I dunno, it's possible.

P.S. This reply was meant for GS, but now my answer has move to place below
podborski's comment.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

robi666 says on Mar 8, 2008, 10:10:

As I wrote, and if i remember well Juancegomez was another and only one, that the evidences could be used in a smarter way, instead of making them public the next day.

Ctg Bound says on Mar 8, 2008, 10:13:

podborski,

It won't matter one way or the other really, Chavez is destroying his Countries economy and pissing to many people off, especially in Ven, he will be kicked out of office one way or the other.

Monpirri says on Mar 8, 2008, 10:15:

Does Juancegomez work for the Colombian government? We only know what they want to release to the public or the media, however there are things that we do not know because they won't tell.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

podborski says on Mar 8, 2008, 10:17:

I agree Ctg Bound, it's only a matter of time.

Actually, I'm not sure he will be kicked out, honestly I think he will do anything to stay in power (just my reading of him).

But he will become impotent and irrelevant very shortly. You might argue he already is.

robi666 says on Mar 8, 2008, 10:17:

"robi666 says on Tuesday March 4th, 2008 19:45:
I noticed that too... it is like, we forgot that you raided inside our territory if you forget about what you found in the computer.
It seems fine to me.
Let's move on, RR is gone anyway"

Listen, everything was so clear from the beginning.
After the Colombian raid, the very first reaction of Correa was not so strongly negative.
As soon as Chavez knew about the computer and the evidences, he immediately pushed Correa against Colombia and he reacted himself.
Then he did the same with Ortega and started to move his other puppets of the chorus.
But, if you read his declarations, they were always focused in attesting his good faith.
His speech at the meeting, an apology of himself, was about the same.
I bet he was scared to shit...

robi666 says on Mar 8, 2008, 10:22:

The only hope is an hidden diplomatic work of the US, attesting the evidences and transmitting them out to its European allies.

Monpirri says on Mar 8, 2008, 10:24:

I agree with you, he knows how to move his puppets, Correa and Ortega.
Let's wait to see what would happen and remember Colombia still has the best cards in their hands. And also remember nobody knew about the plan to go to Ecuador and get said evidence.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

podborski says on Mar 8, 2008, 10:25:

yeah and those allies will say 'we have to handle this diplomatically, quietly, not cause anyone to lose face, blah blah blah', meaning they won't do anything.

yes I am cynical about diplomats, especially european ones

robi666 says on Mar 8, 2008, 10:31:

There is not much more that can be done at this point, after the pathetic show at the meeting, pod.

podborski says on Mar 8, 2008, 10:33:

yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you at all robi, just being cynical : )

goin_south says on Mar 8, 2008, 10:37:

"makes it a bit harder for colombia to go after FARC terrorists taking refuge in Venezuela".
.........
....yep... well, we know they won't stay there. but, a respit, for some time, perhaps.

AND LASTLY.. .TIME MARCHES ON.
THIS IS NOT THE END OF POLITICAL UPHEAVAL IN SOUTH AMERICA, REGARDING COLOMBIA..
...LIKELY A NEW BEGINNING...

y, un mil gracias.

robi666 says on Mar 8, 2008, 10:40:

Let's look at the good result now: Colombia raided into Ecuador, killed an important Chavez' ally and went along with it. Chavez and Correa were advised and will be more conservative in their help from now on. Fine. For now.

robi666 says on Mar 8, 2008, 11:00:

On the other hand, I wonder what could have happened if Colombia just maintained secret the content of the computer.

My guess:
1) the problem of the raid in Ecuador would have been handled better. Not this strong Chavez intervention and a faster agreement between Colombia and Ecuador.
2) Colombia could still have a good hand at poker in its hand.

Uribe was not born for policy and diplomacy. The man is too transparent sometimes, and gets high too fast.
In a Company, he would be a wonderful "technical" guy, serious, responsible and intelligent. Not a "commercial" guy, though.

Ctg Bound says on Mar 8, 2008, 11:04:

Uribe went to the meeting knowing most of the Countries would be against him there, most of the Countries have left leaning governments, so it doesn't take much to assume that they are going to be against a right wing government.

No point producing evidence there, pass it on to where it can be used, presuming the people there think the evidence is good enough, I have little doubt that the evidence exists, wether it is good enough for a prosecution etc., is another matter.

Uribe has big ones to go to the meeting knowing that most are left wing governments and is going to have to fight his corner alone, I haven't seen anybody else mention that.

robi666 says on Mar 8, 2008, 11:08:

Ctg, I don't think he could decide not to go.

robi666 says on Mar 8, 2008, 11:18:

Monpi, evidences will indeed be forgotten...

In El Tiempo http://www.eltiempo.com/politica/2008-03-08/ARTICULO-WEB-NOTA_INTERIOR...

"La reunión terminó con anuncios inesperados. Ortega se arrepintió de haber roto relaciones con Colombia y Uribe de demandar a Chávez ante la Corte Penal Internacional."

"Antes de superar la crisis con Ecuador, Venezuela y Nicaragua, el presidente Alvaro Uribe había utilizado como estrategia de defensa una serie de cartas encontradas en el computador de 'Raúl Reyes' con las que pidió una investigación sobre posibles nexos de las
Farc con funcionarios del gobierno ecuatoriano.

Si bien esas cartas le sirvieron para equiparar las cargas frente a los reclamos de los tres presidentes que en la última semana lo atacaron desde diferentes flancos, al culminar la Cumbre de Río se podría decir que, por ahora, quedan en el olvido.

Una de las cartas, quizás la que llamó más la atención en el auditorio y en las agencias de noticias, fue una en la que 'Reyes' le ha habla a 'Manuel Marulanda' de una supuesta ayuda electoral para Correa, cuando este aspiraba a la presidencia del vecino país.

Una segunda carta habla deque 'Reyes' habría recibido la visita del Ministro de la Seguridad ecuatoriano y la tercera de que Correa estaba interesado en reunirse con 'Marulanda' en las selvas colombianas, acompañado del presidente venezolano, Hugo Chávez.

Uribe, antes de los abrazos y las disculpas, dijo que entregaría estos documentos a Correa para que él iniciara una investigación en su país y también las ofreció para una Corte Internacional.

Tras los abrazos, Correa dijo que estos documentos se los entregaría a los partidos de oposición en su país para que estos los evaluarán. Uribe, sin prevenciones, le respondió que él podía disponer de estos mensajes como quisiera."

goin_south says on Mar 8, 2008, 11:23:

Ctg Bound...
you haven't seen others mention it?
go read the whole thread.
it's one of the better ones of the past three years on pbh

y, un mil gracias.

goin_south says on Mar 8, 2008, 11:24:

even though the title of the thread (is eye-catching), but... IS VOID OF SUBSTANCE.
Hey, maINRed.. how'd it go with the drugs last night?
oh..... n'r mind... talk to ya tomorrow... we hope.

y, un mil gracias.

goin_south says on Mar 8, 2008, 11:26:

(I think he was already started on the drugs, when he was watching the show and startin the thread, yesterday ;-))

y, un mil gracias.

germuno says on Mar 8, 2008, 12:43:

Uribe doesn't show me any cajones going to the meeting alone

He has U.S. backing and is as much a puppet to them as anybody in S A is to Chavez

There isn't much difference between any of the principals in this case. But the only one who has actual military experience is Chavez.

If i had to have somebody have my back it would be him. He can fight.

Having said that I don't think he's any better than any of the other politicians from the 4 countries directly envolved. They all will say anything and do anything for personal advancement. The people are secondary to all of them.

billyb says on Mar 8, 2008, 12:46:

"If i had to have somebody have my back it would be him. He can fight. "

Give us an example of his fighting prowess. I'll save you the trouble, you can't.

billyb says on Mar 8, 2008, 12:50:

I'll give you the 2 cases when he was involved in military operations. Once in 1992, when he led an ill fated coup against the democraticaly elected gov, which was put down in a couple of hours and he had his sniveling ass thrown in prison. And the second time when his own military led a coup against him and he meekly conceded right away, as long as he was guaranteed that he would not be shot. And now your examples of his bravery?

goin_south says on Mar 8, 2008, 12:50:

doesn't he 'fight' with his own generals?

y, un mil gracias.

Lcacique says on Mar 8, 2008, 12:58:

The reason that negotiations wouldn't have worked two years ago is not just because FARC is unwilling to give up their means of acquiring wealth but it may also be because the government is unwilling to make concessions as well. With all the talk about how well the economy is doing you would think that Colombians would be doing better, but it depends on which Colombians you are talking about. There are some great signs with respect to lower unemployment levels, and higher wages. However, a higher average wage can simply be a reflection of the fact that the wealthy are making a lot more money (i.e. outliers). How is unemployment measured in Colombia? Do you have to be looking for a job in order to be considered unemployed like you do in the U.S.? If so, are the millions of displaced not counted in these figures? Just curious...I have no idea.

According to the World Bank and the UNDP, Colombia has one of the worst polarizations of wealth disparity and it has continued to grow despite recent economic growth. Former U.S. Ambassador to Colombia, Myles Frechette, recently wrote a report on U.S. policy towards Colombia in 2007 titled "Colombia and the United States: The Partnership: But What is the Endgame?" () where he acknowledges that "Colombia is a highly stratified society; wealth and land are distributed very unequally. If you are born poor, you are likely to die poor." He goes on to say that "distribution of wealth is among the most unequal, not only in the region, but on earth." Strange to hear something like that coming from a former U.S. Ambassador of the most democratic nation to the South, Colombia.

This in no way justifies the FARC who have discredited themselves time and time again (they are evil, I know!); nevertheless, the problems in Colombia go beyond the insurgency and cultivation of narcotics and I wonder how committed those in Bogotá are to addressing these issues. These are just some thoughts...

It's also kind of ironic that the US counternarcotics program is what caused all of these problems, and it was extremely predictable. Succesful eradication projects in Peru and Bolivia pushed cultivation (Balloon Effect) into Colombia where processing was already taking place = increased power/wealth for Colombian Cartels. In Bolivia, loss of a means to make a living for coca farmers = extreme discontent and tension which leads to a coca farmer being elected to the presidency. The US attack on the increasingly powerful cartels pushes control of the cocaine industry into the hands of the guerrillas and the paras making them both more powerful and dangerous. Now success in Colombia is pushing coca back into Peru and Bolivia. Hum, what is next?

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 8, 2008, 13:07:

Billy, it's magical realism what I see every day when reading Colombian newspapers on line; there was plenty proof of it in yesterday's debates in Santo Domingo. Yeah, perhaps I'm a dreamer, but yet, Chavez and Cordoba don't seem to have a lot of problem talking to the guerrilla and from guerrilla's viewpoint, perhaps they talked to them one time too many.

Truce and humanitarian exchange should be the firs step. not more killing. I agree with you guys, however, the future of Colombia lies not with the FARC or any insurgency and the time of the death squads, paraco armies and the rule of a few rich families is over. Colombia's hope for future lies in the broadening political spectrum, moving the power away from the old elites and becoming a true democracy in the modern sense of the word.

I have always sustained that the true enemy in Colombia is the drug maffias and