Does Colombia need a socialist revolution?

Peter (Moderator) says on Sep 16, 2003, 21:00:

RE: Does Colombia need a socialist revolution? It already has a socialist revolution. Gee seems to be a smash hit. Get your head out of your butt and read the news.

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Peter (Moderator) says on Sep 16, 2003, 21:00:

RE: Does Colombia need a socialist revolution? (Written by anonymous)
What socialist revolution? When?

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Peter (Moderator) says on Sep 16, 2003, 21:00:

RE: Does Colombia need a socialist revolution? (Written by mo)
The question is too stupid to discuss.

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Peter (Moderator) says on Sep 16, 2003, 21:00:

RE: Does Colombia need a socialist revolution? (Written by pedro)
finnally we can get rid of this communists, uribe will "smoke" them out of the country. well done.

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Peter (Moderator) says on Sep 16, 2003, 21:00:

RE: Does Colombia need a socialist revolution? (Written by allovertheplace)
"status quo", "warring factions", take your skimask off...

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Peter (Moderator) says on Sep 16, 2003, 21:00:

RE: Does Colombia need a socialist revolution? (Written by mo)
Old socialist never die they just smell that way.

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Peter (Moderator) says on Sep 17, 2003, 21:00:

RE: Does Colombia need a socialist revolution? (Written by anonymous)
Is the status quo worth preserving? Maybe, maybe not. Why don't we let the people decide? Of course the FARC and ELN would rather tend to their little cocoa gardens, kill a few toddlers and horses every now and gain, and kidnap a grandmother or two, than debate these issues on their merits and trust the will of the people. Of course they probably read the polls that give them 3% support in Colombia and figure, nah, let's just continue with our own STATUS QUO!

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Peter (Moderator) says on Sep 17, 2003, 21:00:

RE: Does Colombia need a socialist revolution? (Written by ml)
We dont need a socialist revolution... wake up... read newspapers.. we need to get a country in peace, get rid of the guerrilla and their cocaine fields, masacres, kidnapings. Thats what we need.
ml

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Peter (Moderator) says on Sep 17, 2003, 21:00:

RE: Does Colombia need a socialist revolution? (Written by Anonymous)
Do you think Colombia's economic problems will diappear with the guerilla? No way. You already have the IMF queueing up with their wonderful SAP's to "help" Colombia.

Argentina, here we come!

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Peter (Moderator) says on Sep 17, 2003, 21:00:

RE: Does Colombia need a socialist revolution? (Written by colombiangirl)
Well dear anonymous... I'll put it in this way... it is like if you have cancer, and diabetes and you just got a cold too. If you find the cure for your cancer, you'll be still sick...but a looooot better off. I dont really think the end of the guerrilla means the end of our problems... we will always have problems...every country has, but only Colombia is got the FARC-CANCER

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Peter (Moderator) says on Sep 17, 2003, 21:00:

RE: Does Colombia need a socialist revolution? (Written by .)
An interesting article I read:

What the elections in Colombia reveal about class relations

The election of Alvaro Uribe Velez reveals a lot about class
relations in Colombia. The bourgeoisie has mobilised the petty
bourgeoisie behind it, the industrial working class remains organized
and mobilized, but is isolated from the masses of poor workers and
peasants. The great masses of the poor remain demobilized,
unorganized, and without leadership.

One key aspect of the election of Alvaro Uribe Velez is almost
invisible in the media outside of Colombia, and not very visible in
the media in Colombia.

Uribe Velez is many things - but most important he is the son of a
man who was killed by the FARC. He has vengeance - REVENGE - deep in
his heart. So too does Francisco Santos, Uribe Velez's VP. Santos was
kidnapped by the FARC, and ransomed by his family. Santos is the
founder of NO MAS the protest movement against kidnappings which
mobilized mass demonstrations of as many as 50,000 people. Santos
wants revenge, just like Uribe Velez.

The bourgeoise and petty bourgeoise of Colombia want revenge. In
their own crooked, distorted view of the world they have been the
victims who have suffered from the war, despite their patience, their
wilingness to negotiate, blah, etc. blah.

For them, it is okay if they kill a few peasants, or a few thousand
peasansts. For them it is okay if they kill a few communists, or a
few thousand communists. But it is not okay for the FARC, the ELN or
anyone else, to kill and kidnap them.

And over the last decade thousands of them have been kidnapped, and
hundreds have died. At any one time there are about 3,000 people held
by kidnappers in this country. In the past decade possibly more than
30,000 in total. Most of them survive, and are released, when their
families pay ransom. Some of them are killed when their families do
not pay ranson. Some are killed after their families pay ransom. Some
die in captivity from illnesses. Some die when rescue attempts fail.

No one knows exactly how many kidnappings there have been, because
many go unreported. Many more families and businesses regularly pay
taxes, or extortion, to the FARC, to the ELN and to criminal
organizations, to avoid having themselves, members of their families,
or employees of their businesses kidnapped.

The number 30,000 kidnapped in the last decade is a good estimate.
The political significance of this number should not be underrated.
Less than 5% of Colombians have family incomes over $700/month. That
works out to less than 2,000,000 people. Most of the people kidnapped
come from this small layer of society. Most of these people are not
rich by the standards of the United States or Europe. But in Colombia
they own a house, a farm, and a car. Maybe they own a small business.
Probably they employ a maid. Some of them are very wealthy, but the
very wealthy are only a handful within this much broader layer of
what should really be understood as the bourgeoisie.

A very large percentage of those 2,000,000 are closely related to, or
friends with, a person who was kidnapped.

Uribe Velez's election revealed that, probably more than ever in the
entire history of Colombia, the bourgeoisie and petty bourgeoisie are
politically united. They have a one issue program in common: no more
kidnappings. This is the secret of Uribe Velez's popular support.

A secret he let out of the bag when he gave his victory speech after
the election.

Now Noemi Sanin's supporters have all folded their tents to join
Uribe Velez, while Serpa's political godfather, former President
Alfonso Lopez Michelson says he was a closet Uribe Velez supporter
all along. He has called for Serpa to hand over the machinery of the
Liberal Party to Uribe Velez.

According to Michelson, Liberals who want to oppose Uribe Velez,
should leave the Liberal party and join Garzon's Democratic Pole.

A quick look at the vote tallies published to date shows that voter
turnout, and voting patterns for the different candidates, almost
perfectly reflected economic status across the neighborhoods of the
main cities. Turnout was high among the rich and upper middle class,
moderately high among the middle classes and in the working class,
and low among the poorest.

Not surprisingly, Uribe Velez did best where turnout was highest, and
worst where turnout was lowest.

Cont'd....

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Peter (Moderator) says on Sep 17, 2003, 21:00:

RE: Does Colombia need a socialist revolution? (Written by .)

Voter turnout was very low, lower even than in the last presidential
election: about 54%. In the countryside it was much lower than in the
cities, and in areas of heavy armed conflict, especially Meta and
Choco, voter turnout was less than 25%.

In other words, the poor, and especially the poor in the countryside,
did not vote.

Besides the unity of the bourgeois revealed in the election and its
immediate aftermath, the elections revealed the continued
demobiilzation and lack of political organization among the
peasantry, and among the broadest layers of poor workers.

As far as I can tell, Lucho Garzon's votes came very strongly from
unionized workers. Every teacher, telephone worker, and public
utility worker I talked to in the weeks before the election (quite a
few people) said they planned to vote for Garzon. (Very few of my
students said they voted for Garzon. In one class of 22 students,
aged 17 to 26, from mostly working class and lower middle class
families, only one person said they voted for Garzon, one for Serpa,
and 18 for Uribe (two said they didn't vote.) A friend who teaches at
Universidad de Los Andes (sort of the Stanford of this city) told me
the place was full of Uribe signs and supporters, with virtually no
sign of support for any other candidate. even at the National
University, where a statue of Lenin still stands, Uribe signs were
running neck and neck with anarchist graffiti and Lucho signs.)

The unionized workers, especially those in the government owned
enterprises, are the only sector among the oppressed an exploited who
remain organized and mobilized on their own behalf. Their
mobilization at the ballot box, is currently being accompanied by
strikes in progress or scheduled at most state owned companies
(telecommunications, oil and some utilities), and at some banks. A
number of public schools in working class neighborhoods have been
occupied by high school students protesting budget cuts and massive
police raids (the police have ostensibly been searching for arms, but
it appears they also are searching for political literature.)

As for the FARC and ELN's weight in electoral politics, it could be
said to have been decisive in electing Uribe Velez. Not because of
their electoral policy, but because their miiltary policy -
especially kidnapping - is the emotional glue that has finally united
the Colombian bourgeoisie. (Quite a feat when you consider that the
Colombian bourgeoisie fought two civil wars among themselves just in
the 20th century.)

As for their electoral policy, The FARC did not call for a nationwide
boycott of the elections, instead it was for voting against Velez,
Serpa, and Sanin. The ELN did boycott the elections. But the only
people who knew what the FARC and ELN had to say were online, or
living in the isolated towns and villages, and sparesly populated
countryside, where the FARC and ELN have political influence.

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Peter (Moderator) says on Sep 17, 2003, 21:00:

RE: Does Colombia need a socialist revolution? The left wing won't stand a chance if they continue to act as a front for drug growing terrorists organizations like FARC or ELN.

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Peter (Moderator) says on Sep 17, 2003, 21:00:

RE: Does Colombia need a socialist revolution? (Written by gringopingo)
someone else has decided to adopt my username. ok, guess now there will be multiple "gringopingos"

my own thought; what may have started as a pure social organization has become quite capitalist in nature. Farc/Eln leaders are not immune from greed and the need for power. Athough in theory communism may look beautiful, when run by mere humans, it becomes extreme capitalism, that is almost everyone working for a select few that run the government. The select few often live very opulent lifestyles, ie Romania's Chowskieu, Fidel Castro is no pauper either.
The usa is not perfect but may be the lesser of the evils.
And yes, Bush is a moron.

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Peter (Moderator) says on Sep 17, 2003, 21:00:

RE: Does Colombia need a socialist revolution? Whenever I read anything with the words, "bourgeoisie", "oppressed" or "exploited", my eyes glaze over and a sort of Marxist fog clouds my brain. Have any of you guys actually grown up, worked, and paid taxes?

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Peter (Moderator) says on Sep 17, 2003, 21:00:

RE: Does Colombia need a socialist revolution? (Written by colombian girl)
Amigo gringo .- with all the respect you deserve... where did you get that article from? it's so no true, it doesn't even has an author!! You didn't growth up in Colombia, do you? "bourgeoisie united"??? you mean an entire country united and sick of the lies, killings and terror of FARC. My dad is affiliated to one biggest worker unions in Bogota, he voted for Uribe as well as most of his coworkers (some of them said they vote for Garzon...that's democracy my friend). You have to understand that Colombia is not like any other country in the world, here the logic is different. For more than 50 years every president (some of them corrupts, but thats another topic) have been trying to negotiate with them. THEY DONT WANT TO, THEY WONT, I've spoken with three "former" guerrilla members (trying to reinsert now), for FARC leaders the money from kidnapings and cocaine is just to good to leave behind and its soldiers are 14 years old kids easy to train.

This is not Ireland or Israel, here the guerrilla has no specific goal nor target other than make more money and keep control in certain areas of Colombia. Please understand, it is not Uribe o Santos who wants revenge (eventhough if I were them, I probably would) it is a country who wanted to elect an honest and straightfoward person who finally is doing something with authority against a group of kidnapers,murderers with no sense of humanity but fat bank accounts in Europe.

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Peter (Moderator) says on Sep 17, 2003, 21:00:

RE: Does Colombia need a socialist revolution? At last someone who seems to know what they are talking about! Thank you!

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Peter (Moderator) says on Sep 17, 2003, 21:00:

RE: Does Colombia need a socialist revolution? Oh Colombian Girl, you are the voice of reason on this site. A ray of light. Keep on posting, girl!

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Peter (Moderator) says on Sep 17, 2003, 21:00:

RE: Does Colombia need a socialist revolution? (Written by anonymous)
I'm confused. Is it correct to be against kidnapping? Seems a percentage of 4 million Colombians living outside the nation might come back. Kidnapping is the United States is a federal crime. It seems good to be against kidnapping.

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Peter (Moderator) says on Sep 17, 2003, 21:00:

RE: Does Colombia need a socialist revolution? (Written by Randy)
It is amasing to see what lengths the Left will go to to deny the popularity of Uribe and justify the atrocities of the FARC. Gee I guess it is just too bad that the people of Colombia don't like being kidnapped. They just don't understand it is in there best interest to be kidnapped and to like it, because the FARC cares so much for the people. It seems that if you don't like being kidnapped and forced to pay taxes to the farc, you are just bourgeoisie and petty bourgeoisie, and don't deserve to have your voice heard.

In my book bourgeoisie referres to people who work for a living, people who pay other people, in other words the people who create wealth. The leftist who complain about the bourgeoisie don't realize thet without the bourgeoisie, they would not have anyone to sponge off of.

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Peter (Moderator) says on Sep 18, 2003, 21:00:

RE: Does Colombia need a socialist revolution? (Written by anonymous)
**THEY DONT WANT TO, THEY WONT, I've spoken with three "former" guerrilla members (trying to reinsert now), for FARC leaders the money from kidnapings and cocaine is just to good to leave behind and its soldiers are 14 years old kids easy to train.
***

Rightist propoganda

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Peter (Moderator) says on Sep 18, 2003, 21:00:

RE: Does Colombia need a socialist revolution? Oh yeah. The FARC didn't really kill all of those people at Club Nogal. And if the did their lives were unimportant because they were just bourgeoisie and petty bourgeoisie anyway.

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Peter (Moderator) says on Sep 18, 2003, 21:00:

RE: Does Colombia need a socialist revolution? (Written by expat)
By the way Colombian girl, why don't you post your email address. I would like to get to know you alot better, if you know what I mean.

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