Do As I Say, Not As I Do…….??????
Since Illegal Immigration in the US is such a hot political potato, and emotions run wild on all sides, it occurred to me that many people of the US appear to subscribe to the doctrine of “Do As I Say, Not As I Do” with regards to respect of the immigration laws of a country. The respect of the immigration laws of a country, or lack thereof, is a central theme of the current immigration debate. Some are quick to point out that when the current illegal immigrants violate the US immigration laws by entering the country illegally, overstaying their visa, etc, they become criminals and should be pursued for deportation. But what of the US citizens who “immigrate” to Colombia, and violate the immigration laws of Colombia? How many posts have occurred here on PBH where foreigners in Colombia request information on ways to violate Colombian immigration laws by overstaying their visas, finding employment when not authorized by their visa conditions, etc? Does this not also show the same disrespect to Colombian immigration laws? And should this also lead to pursuing these “criminals” and their subsequent deportation?
I am not proposing wholesale deportation of foreigners who violate the laws of Colombia, so current PBHers living in Colombia should not get offended. =) I am interested in reading PBHer’s intelligent views (read non-racist or based on bigotry) on this apparent hypocrisy…
Time to watch USC beat Michigan in the Rose Bowl!!!!!
By Miguel_Clavo on Jan 1, 2007, 12:02 in Politics & the war.
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jay1234 says on Jan 1, 2007, 15:51: I agree... Very hypocritical to complain about the "illegal immigrant" problem here in the US, and then flout the laws of Colombia. I suspect that some probably feel, "I am a gringo, I bring money to Colombia, so it is not BAD illegal immigration- it's good!"
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athensugadawg says on Jan 1, 2007, 17:12: Point well taken Miguel.... and if an individual is in another country, the least they can do is to respect the law of the land, including laws pertaining to immigration. I find it so interesting that many that subscribe to an amnesty for illegal aliens are in reality aligning themselves with businesses that circumvent immigration laws by paying subsistence wages and providing no benefits. Whenever I hear our President say that "they are here to do the jobs that Americans will not do"....I honestly want to puke. Just curious, can anyone here name some jobs "that Americans will not do"...? Meat processors, landscapers, homebuilders get a labor force that can easily be screwed and in turn take jobs away from the unemployed in this country. Taxpayers are given the shaft by having to subsidize services for this illegal population...and if you disagree with me, then I would be more than happy to let you pay my property taxes for 2007. Please feel free to put your money where your mouth is. Personally, I would rather pay more for goods and services knowing that it was produced by a legal workforce.
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athensugadawg says on Jan 1, 2007, 17:17: Point well taken Miguel.... and if an individual is in another country, the least they can do is to respect the law of the land, including laws pertaining to immigration. I find it so interesting that many that subscribe to an amnesty for illegal aliens are in reality aligning themselves with businesses that circumvent immigration laws by paying subsistence wages and providing no benefits. Whenever I hear our President say that "they are here to do the jobs that Americans will not do"....I honestly want to puke. Just curious, can anyone here name some jobs "that Americans will not do"...? Meat processors, landscapers, homebuilders get a labor force that can easily be screwed and in turn take jobs away from the unemployed in this country. Taxpayers are given the shaft by having to subsidize services for this illegal population...and if you disagree with me, then I would be more than happy to let you pay my property taxes for 2007. Please feel free to put your money where your mouth is. Personally, I would rather pay more for goods and services knowing that it was produced by a legal workforce.
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aztec says on Jan 1, 2007, 18:04: Miguel_Clavo: "violate the immigration laws of Colombia? " But what of the US citizens who “immigrate” to Colombia, and violate the immigration laws of Colombia?
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Robert Jorge says on Jan 1, 2007, 20:37: I agree with Don Gringo. I get the point of the OP, and it is hypocritical, but the people overstaying visas in Colombia are generally NOT a charge to the Colombian government. They are spending money into the system, not sending it away to another land ... besides perhaps the narcotrafficantes, but that is a whole different topic. If one stays in Colombia an extra month, they are fined at the port of exit. Period. I don't see too many people asking how to stay "illegally" in Colombia here. I see people asking how to stay legally. The red tape for an extended stay in Colombia is the thing that makes it an issue. It is pretty hard to stay in Colombia past 6 months, "legally". That is why so many people ask what it takes to stay longer. BEWARE of gold diggers. 0 funny, 0 helpful. |
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Robert Jorge says on Jan 1, 2007, 20:41: I just read my post, and I need to clarify that: What the O.P. Miguel said is not hypocritical: but rather I am agreeing that the people who bitch about illegals in the US, and then want to stay in Colombia past their visa, or disrespect Colombian law, are hypocrites. What I wrote in my above post appears to say I am calling Miguel a hypoctrite, and I didn't mean that. BEWARE of gold diggers. 0 funny, 0 helpful. |
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miamimike says on Jan 2, 2007, 03:50: In Miami, Jackson Memorial Hospital Spent over $500,000,000 Million(thats right $500 Million)in 2005 on un-reimbursed Healthcare. Not all was spent on undocumented Aliens but a Lot was. We have close to 600,000 uninsured aliens here in Miami Dade County Florida and most of these uninsured Aliens end up going to Jackson Memorial Hospital for Health care. It would be intersting to know the overall cost of the Charity Healthcare spent in Miami alone.Not to mention the folks who drive without Car Insurance and the Amount of Money spent on Schooling as 1000s of undocumented aliens register their Kids in our Public schools and this is a Huge Money drain on the System so yes, here the prescence of the Undocumented Aliens are a HUGE Problem and drain on Taxpayer supported systems. In Colombia, most Americans look for the legal way, for example on Healthcare, they buy insurance and avoid becoming a charge or burden on the Colombian government. These are Ideal Immigrants for Colombia as they spend much more then they take in services. "Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C. 0 funny, 0 helpful. |
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aztec says on Jan 2, 2007, 09:13: if you are a forigner and show up at the hospital without a cedula and without insurance, a credit card or cash you are turned away.
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Miguel_Clavo says on Jan 2, 2007, 10:22: I guess the Baghdad Bob of Bogota has never read any posts of foreigners living in Colombia who are posting requests for information on how to overstay their visa, find illegal English teaching positions???.....and thank you for making my argument: "I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave" 0 funny, 0 helpful. |
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1cito says on Jan 2, 2007, 11:52: Hypocrisy or is Migs Just Bored? "It occurred to me that MANY people of the US appear to subscribe to the doctrine of “Do As I Say, Not As I Do” with regards to respect of the immigration laws of a country."
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Swinn88 says on Jan 2, 2007, 12:03: I agree with DGringo. I seriously doubt that there are many americans living in colombia and i'm not sure but I would wager that the majority of these living a life in colombia are there legally. Shame on those that are there illegally, however to compare it to what is going on in the U.S.A. is a bit ridiculous. There are Millions of illegals in the U.S.A. the numbers say between 12 & 20 million. I think that the numbers are much more. I would be willing to say that there are more illegal latino immigrants living in the U.S.A. than there are latinos living in any one single central or south American Country. If you find the number of Americans living illegally in colombia, or any other country comparable then you have made a great point. However I believe you would be hard pressed to do so. The people here at PBH looking for an easy route to stay in colombia illegally have number that are miniscule when compared to the number of colombians living illegally in the U.S.A. Answer some questions. Are Children of Foriegners born in Colombia automatic citizens? If an American was in colombia looking for employment in colombia would the american be hired before a colombian? does an American have the right to buy property if he is in the country illegally? or legally for that matter? Are illegal Americans cared for by the colombian government better than colombia citizens? A good friend from Argentina told me he would never become a citizen in the U.S.A. because despite all the hoopla about illegal immigrants, the U.S. government seems to favor illegals over their citizens. he also said he would kill any American singing Argentinas national Anthem in Argentina in English. He also said anyone flying an American flag on their cars at their homes or any other extremely visible place would have some serious problems. I believe the same would be true in Colombia. The truth is that it's a horrible comparison and that anyone immigrating to colombia illegally would never receive the benefits that illegals receive in the U.S.A. They send no money to the U.S. they just live in colombia off of their pensions or savings or whatever income they have from The U.S.A. They are not public charges of the government of Colombia.
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Swinn88 says on Jan 2, 2007, 12:27: By the way most people don't believe that illegal immigrants are criminals. A few people have voiced that terrible opinion and for whatever reason proponents of illegal immigration believe that the majority of Americans feel that way. It's simply not true. Most Americans feel for illegals. However they want them to be Americans. not Foriegners living in America. The truth is I have never met an African Immigrant that didn't speak english(and still have there African Customs. I have never met a person from china, Korea, Norway, Germany, or any other country that didn't eventually learn the language(Old People get a pass on this). However I have family here for 20-30 some have 45 years here and still can not speak a word of English. They want to hold on to there customs. All Americans hold on to their customs because we are all immigrants. We just see other cultures and we blend alittle. Maybe the Jamaican Beef patty is different from empanadas, But they are delicious. The truth is I like them better. I like authentic Italian Sauces. I like Mexican Dishes most of all and no Mexican/American cuisine is not the same as cuisine from other Latin countries. Please lets not forget about chinese food. The Chinese food in Colombia does not compare and certainly does not have the Variety. But we still hold on to customs, like the old italian Immigrants, and Irish Immigrants, and African , and chinese immigrants do. Being an American doesn't make anyone less colombian or Mexican or chinese. In America it makes you better. It Makes You stand out. You speak English and Spanish. You get a better paying job because of it. I dont want to live in colombia in The U.S.A. If I wanted that I would move to Colombia. Colombia is a much better Colombia than we could ever create in The U.S.A. The U.S.A. Is a much better U.S.A. than can be created in Colombia. Hey!!!How many Americans in Colombia Don't learn to speak Spanish and enjoy colombian culture? The Answer is none. They alllearn to Speak Spanish and enjoy the festivals and the food and such. We should do the same when we are out of our countries in in someone elses.
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athensugadawg says on Jan 2, 2007, 13:05: OTMIAMIMIKE.... I occasionally make it to the MIA area and work my customer base at U of Miami and Jackson Memorial. I am very curious about something that I have observed over the years...I have met a few Cuban refugees that are M.D.'s that cannot pass the U.S. equivalency exams. Usually these individuals settle for low paying lab tech positions in the labs on that campus. In your opinion, is that due to the language barrier (hard to believe that so few take the initiative to learn English) or are the Cuban Med Schools in reality glorified diploma mills? Also, do you have any read on the Spanish surgeon that was recently brought in to examine Fidel? Again, what does this say for the state of the Cuban M.D?
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miamimike says on Jan 2, 2007, 13:38: Athensdawg, interesting comparison you make On Cuban Doctors in Miami. I have met quite a few Cuban Docs and Nurses, as well as Puerto Rican and Jamaician Nurses. The Problem with many Cuban Doctors(as well as Medical professionals from other countries) is that they do not put the effort into first learning English at the Med/technical level. They put the effort into the Licensing which is the Cart ahead of the Horse. A while back, in the 90s, the Florida Board for Physican Assistants gave the Cuban Docs a window where they could take the Physician Assistant Exam(florida) and out of like 20, only 2-3 passed. Many retested,few passed the exam. I think it was the Langauge Barrier as a Cuban MD with a Good Command of English should pass our Physician Assistant with flying colors. Castro has a Medical Study Program for Minority Americans in Havana and the first group has graduated and in a recent miami herald article, one Graduate scored extremely high on the USME Exam so I doubt its course content. Cuban MD Schools have had the course content examined closely here in Florida and the state board is satisfied that the Medical Training is adequate. Cuba also has a large and very advanced(profitable)Bio-Pharmaceutical Manufacturing Industry so that also speaks well of the advanced state of Medicine,Medical reserach, all things considered, in Cuba. Infant Mortality(source: new england journal of medicine)in Cuba is less then here in the USA so that speaks highly for their preventive medicine system. I think that Specialist(from spain) that was brought in had more Political Connections then Medical into the decision. Then he also may have been brought into Cuba for a second opinion.That happens here in the USA also, Foreign Surgeons giving Seminars on speciality procedures at US Hospitals and Universities. I have seen many Nurses coming from Puerto Rico and these are the most lacking medically. They had an extremely poor pass rate on the Florida Nursing exams. Working with many of them, I see their courses as medically lacking.The Jamacian Nurses seem to be some of the Best Trained of the Foreign Nurses, clinically and scholastically, as their Nursing Programs are modeled after England's Nursing schools. Many Carribbean trained Docs went to Med school in the Dominican Republic and have performed well. My Boss in the 90s at the Krome Detention Center was a Graduate of Eastern University in Santo Domingo. Passed his USME Exam first time around, prior to Krome, he was the Flight Surgeon for the US Coast Guard but his command of English was A1 so he sailed thru the exam. Truth be told, many do not put the effort into learning our Langauge and they pay dearly for it when they sit for their respective medical licensing exams. "Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C. 0 funny, 0 helpful. |
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athensugadawg says on Jan 2, 2007, 14:00: THANKS MM I definitely appreciate your insight. I knew that you would be the person to ask from some of your previous posts...it's seems so odd that these individuals could dramatically increase their income by learning the language and refreshing their knowledge, but when everyone speaks Spanish, I guess that makes it rather difficult. Thanks again for your time....
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jay1234 says on Jan 2, 2007, 18:21: miamimike I know you acknowledge that the unreimbursed healthcare figure was not all for illegal immigrants, but do you know if it was half? A third? A fifth? Without knowing, I have to say the $500 mil figure is pretty meaningless. As for the undocumented being a huge money drain on the system...well, my thought is that we have tons of huge drains on our system. How do you feel about the US taxpaper subsidising oil companies exploration and granteing them billions of dollars in under-valued leases (at a time for record profits for oil companies)? Or the money wasted at FEMA (also in the billions). Or no competitive bid contracts going to KBR and Haliburton (again in the billions)? These issues are more costly to us than any outlay to pay for services on the behalf of immigrants. I think I have been clear how I feel about the issue of illegal immigration (basically that it is "wrong" , but not that big of a deal) and I respect others rights to disagree. I just have a hard time understanding the vitriol and no one has ever been able to explain to me why immigration is an issue that should trump more important concerns like tax reform, social security, the war against terror, and a fair labor policy.
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athensugadawg says on Jan 2, 2007, 19:04: A FIFTH OF 500 MILLION IS MEANINGLESS??? you've truly got to be kidding...and keep in mind that those are the figures for Miami-Dade alone. It amazes me that there are individuals that have no problem subsidizing the labor costs of large corporations with no benefit besides a cheaper chicken. Again, you are more than welcome to pay my property taxes to support the education of illegal aliens...and to add salt to the wound, I have no children (nor do I want any, nieces and nephews keep me very busy)...
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miamimike says on Jan 2, 2007, 22:46: Jay1234-Don't know if a study exists on the % Of Undocumenteds who received Healthcare at this one Hospital. It has to be at least 50% though considering the Huge Number of Immigrants we have in Miami-Dade. I'll attribute the other 50% to US Residents or citizens as the last published Figure I saw listed Miami as approx 600,000 who were un-insured in total. Safe to say half off these are undocumented.I work here in the healthcare field and have friends in Jackson so they see the "figures" and have a good idea of the %'s of Undocumeneteds who recieve healthcare here. . Lets not forget the cost of schooling the 1000s of un-documented's Children, a huge Dollar cost also! Add to the fact these Illegals aren't paying their fair share of Tax, quite a tidy sum. El Paso, Texas has it worse then then Miami BTW as their Hospitals are nearly Bankrupt due to un-reimbursed healthcare to illegals. I don't like the other things you mentioned either but that does NOT make it right Illegals don't pay for Healthcare and Education. Would you get away with it their countries??? A free ride, I don't think so! One Cuban(a honduran resident at the time) who came to Miami for (jackson memorial) a Transplant operation wasn't requiered to put down the $250000 Bond Deposit prior to his operation. This Surety Bond is requiered of Foreign patients so the Hospital isn't stuck with the Bill should he die or leave the country. This Cuban ran up a $2.6 Million dollar bill, expired and stuck the Miami Dade County Taxpayers with his Bill! This added to that $500 Million Healthcare Bill.As Cubans are given preferential Treatment in Miami, The Politicans including Jeb Bush(then governor), Illeana Ros lehten and the 2 Diaz Balart Brothers(all congress persons)pulled the strings to get this Cuban a fast Humanitarian Visa to come here then when we Miami Taxpayers were stuck with the Huge Bill these Dead Beat Politicans I mentioned all scooted and evaded responsability(financial).Costs like this are a "Big Deal in Miami as it drives the cost for all legal residents and citizens. Leets not forget the Huge cost disadvantages all these Illegal contractors have by not having the correct state, county and city licenses as well as not having Workingman's Comp, Car insurance ect. This waters down our wages greatly here in Miami as how is an Honest contractor supposed to compete against illegals who don't incur these costs of doing business? They undercut the Honest Conractor and its a Huge Problem here in Miami. They need to have everyone play by the same rule book and its no small penny anty issue either,,, "Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C. 0 funny, 0 helpful. |
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cali373 says on Jan 3, 2007, 07:42: Well we have to think of the numbers. Obviously there are a higher number of Colombians that break U.S. immigration laws than there are U.S. citizens that break Colombian Law. And to a certain degree, immigrants, legal or illegal perform jobs that U.S. citizens won´t do. Well at least in the northeast that is the case. Do you really think an american man wants to be a busboy? The only landscaping I have seen by americans is by the owners of the landscaping business, but their employees are ususally immigrants; sometimes you will see a teenager in or out of highschool doing some landscaping but who would you really rely on, the teenager or the immigrant. Has anyone ever seen a group of unemployed U.S. citizens standing around a corner waiting to be selected to do any work at any given day? I have not. Smile if you are a thinker! 0 funny, 0 helpful. |
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cali373 says on Jan 3, 2007, 08:37: While I do not have concrete figures, somehow I think that more U.S. born Americans take advantage of these free healthcare benefits and leave the hospital with the bill, than immigrants are doiong so. Now some may say, "they as U.S. born are entitled to that," well perhaps but if you remove immigrants from the equation, you will still bitch and moan about it. Another thing is you honestly think that employers only pay of the books to illegals? Hate to break it to you but that is not true and I have seen it. I don't know anything about free healthcare to immigrants, I wish my parents did know because growing up in NYC the few times I got really sick my parents paid out of pocket. I never had insurance growing up and I actually do not have any now either. If I need some medical service I guess I will take a trip to Miami. Now others may argue well U.S citizens have social security numbers and the hospitals can refer their bills to a collection agency. This does not mean the bill will be paid. Think about the kind of people that do not have health insurance. It ios not just immigrants, it is the poorer working class with U.S. born among them. Just think these people getting paid between 6-8 an hour, possibly have a family. You really think they would seriously think "let me see, I can pay this $1000+ medical bill, all I have to do is stop eating for about two years." Smile if you are a thinker! 0 funny, 0 helpful. |
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cali373 says on Jan 3, 2007, 08:37: . Smile if you are a thinker! Smile if you are a thinker! 0 funny, 0 helpful. |
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juancegomez says on Jan 3, 2007, 12:23: Definitely, make it easier for people to go there legally Because that might be more effective in the long run rather than building the Great Wall of America and nothing else (which of couse doesn't eliminate the need for more U.S. border security, but without a better immigration system, potential illegals will just find more creative ways of getting to the U.S. or elsewhere).
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Swinn88 says on Jan 3, 2007, 14:27: Guys its not about a better immigration system in the U.S.A It's about making things better for the Immigrants in their own countries. Colombians will migrate to the U.S.A or any other country because it serve their interests. Those interests include security (PBH members don't like to believe that there are security problems in colombia but there are problems. For you Naysayers There is plenty of crime in the U.S.A probably Larger numbers than colombia but i have yet to see a rouge bunch of thugs claiming territory in the U.S.A and killing those that refuse to go along with their practices). There are also Financial gains( you work hard in the U.S.A. and you can pick yourself up and make a better life for yourself). Countries blast the U.S.A. for their foriegn policy but seek help from the U.S.A. They want aid. They want Money. They want help to make their economys better to stop their own people from migrating north. Then get angry because it is an issue in the U.S. The U.S. can't solve Mexicos economic problems nor colombias or any other country. Venezuela makes enough Money just from oil to sustain each individual venezuelan with a moderate stipend and refuse to do say. people are still doing poorly and the Government blaims it on Imperial Capitalist America. I just can't see that being honest. That is why people leave and don't return because it's not fair in their own country. It can only be fixed from the inside. The U.S.A can only do what it can. There are many options that would work. the one that would work best(my opinion) is to deny the undocumented many of the liberties that they have in the U.S.A. People leave familes and build new ones in the u.s.a and cry that we are being separated from our family if we are deported. What about the Family left in Colombia? do they no longer matter? we left them remember? My children are Citizens. I say deny that priviledge. I'm pregnant and have no insurance. Then work harder the next time to keep from having children. The U.S.A can do things like these to curb illegal immigration. A wall won't deter it. I say build big business along the borders not walls and let people work and return to their families if they like. That would also curb illegal immigration. Allow Investment in countries don't deny people a good life because you don't want an outside influence or practices. Don't scream Nativist when it's because of nativisim that people have to immigrate up north in the first place. Immigration is also not just a problem in the U.S.A. Spain is being bombarded with illegal African immigrants at an alarming rate. Not like U.S. numbers but still pretty large numbers. France has an influx of Immigrants that refuse to be french. As a result I predict a grand upheavel in France in the next 20 years between the French and non French in France. If we want our people to stay we must fix the problem in our country. Not in the U.S. COLOMBIA IS A MUCH BETTER COLOMBIA IN COLOMBIA THAN IN THE U.S.A.
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athensugadawg says on Jan 3, 2007, 18:30: SOME PEOPLE JUST DO NOT GET IT the labor market has become so skewed because of cheap illegal laborers that it has effectively hurt those that can least afford it. Again, I know of no job "that Americans will not do"...it's simple supply and demand at work here. Drive down Buford Highway in Atlanta at 7:00 AM....you'll see what I mean...
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aztec says on Jan 3, 2007, 18:50: athensugadawg thought that ... ...was Chambodia?
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jay1234 says on Jan 3, 2007, 20:01: A question... If an American owner has two applicants for the same job at the same wage, one a citizen and the other an illegal immigrant, who does he hire? My guess is that the majority would hire the citizen (in this hypothetical, I am assuming the owner is not trying to get a "hidden" lower wage out of the illegal by not paying overtime, violating labor laws, keeping the worker off the books, etc.). I think given the choice (and assuming that he knows the legal status of each applicant) almost universally, the citizen hires the citizen. So, if in fact the worker hired is the citizen, then in this scenario there is no "immigrants stealing our jobs problem." How then do you explain the disproportionately large number of illegal immigrants in the landscaping, restaurant and construction businesses? Well, some of the illegals must be willing to work for less or do jobs citizens are unwilling to do at the rate paid the illegals. So, if my instincts are correct, supply and demand are setting the price for labor. Take away the illegals, and the wages would have to rise to attract more citizens. This is, I think, what Swinn88 was getting at- better wages overseas to combat the illegal immigrant "problem." But also there is a flip side, worse wages here. Now we don't want lower wages here (it is hard to get by on the minimum wage) to take care of our own citizens, but by keeping wages artificially high here we do several things. We make it more expensive to manufacture here than in other countries, we drive up the price of our exports, and we make it attractive for workers from other countries to come here (legally, or not). Is it possible to drive up wages in other countries? Maybe, but again, then there are trade-offs. We then may have more expensive foreign goods, bad for the American consumer...
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jay1234 says on Jan 3, 2007, 20:22: Healthcare...again , not a problem. http://www.rand.org/news/press.06/11.14.html ...
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miamimike says on Jan 4, 2007, 04:05: here in Miami The Free Lunch Education Remains a Huge problem as they(children of illegals) upsurp the resources for which they have not payed for. In Miami gain, many Illegals opertate these Unlicensed Contracting services without the proper licenses which in turn greatly hurt the Honest law abiding contractor as he cannot compete due to his conducting business the legal way. These Illegals water down the wages of Legal Businesses. How could they not??? I support the legal way; as I work with our board of directors at our Condo Complex, I go the extra Nine yards and check out who works with our Lawn Service-if they are NOT legal with verifiable SS Numbers, they are history. We have sent two lawn services packing as they tried to slip in undocumeneted workers. A retired fellow in our complex(an American Retiree believe it or not)has volunteered to take the Job! He said it would Pay Better then his Bagging checkout job at oure neighborhood Publix supermarket.LOL SO much for the BS that these Illegals are taking Jobs some American wouldn't do! This American Retiree has no problem mowing yards and clipping hedges!! LOL "Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C. 0 funny, 0 helpful. |
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jay1234 says on Jan 4, 2007, 04:36: miamimike What you describe with the retired fellow tracks with my hypothetical. Your complex, given a choice, hired the citizen over the non-citizen. What gets lost in the "taking jobs Americans won't do" rhetoric is the distinction of "at that pay rate." The retired fellow was willing to work at the offered rate. The issue must be the pay rate offered must be willing to attract citizens over non-citizens. In your complex, an illegal did not take the job over a citizen...so, no illegal "problem," in my view.
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Swinn88 says on Jan 4, 2007, 06:05: You dont go back generations. You stop it now. For future. The ones here get a free pass. it's impossible to go back generations to fix the problem. There is no payback. You just stop the current process that does not work and promotes illegal immigration. Children use resources that there parents pay for. I have insurance that I pay for so that I can take my child to the Dr. I also pay taxes so that my child can go to the public school of the school district that I live in. I pay taxes that pay the police that protect my children and myself. The truth is that if my taxes go to pay for caring for people that have come here illegally then why don't we just send the our taxes directly to whatever country to pay for schooling of their children and hospital expenses and so forth. There is no easy answer, but there is an answer. It's a difficult one. No one wants to stop immigration but illegal immigration should be curtailed. At what point do you say "hey we have to close the door because its beginning to be a bit to much for us" And that is the point. It would not be an issue if it were not beginning to be a bit to much. So the answer is to say "Sorry we are closed. We will open again after we get a better grip on how to manage things here" And thats what illegal undocumented immigrants don't understand. if a million Americans set up shop in colombia (Illegally)and demanded that the Government assist them, Politicians in Colombia would scream foul in an instant. If they began to carry an american flag while doing so the paramilitary the Government and the Farc would join forces to throw them out of the country. If they sang the colombian national song in English then all hell would break out. I'm sure all at PBH would not have a difficult time believing this would happen. The Governments role is to care for it's people. Not the people that infiltrate by illegal means because they like the benefits better than in their own country. Once again if thats the case then American citizens should just pay and send taxes to care for foriegners in their own countries.
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aztec says on Jan 4, 2007, 06:18: Illegal Immigration is a Crime
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Swinn88 says on Jan 4, 2007, 06:22: Sounds Criminal to me.
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aztec says on Jan 4, 2007, 06:46: "A presence of 8 million to
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aztec says on Jan 4, 2007, 06:59: More reading concerning... ...your friendly Mexican invasion.
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miamimike says on Jan 4, 2007, 08:50: Too Bad Bush and His Republican Congress didn't enact stiff immigration reform(or enforce the existing laws on the Book)He had a Golden Oppurtunity and he(they) Blew it bigtime. I say that because the Repubs had the Executive Br and both house of congress-they had all the control and votes and did nothing! All hat and No cattle on Immigration,,,,What a oppurtunity Lost,,, "Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C. 0 funny, 0 helpful. |
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aztec says on Jan 4, 2007, 11:12: miamimike, 100% correct! Some of us think that is why they lost in the last election.
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aztec says on Jan 4, 2007, 11:12: miamimike, 100% correct! That is why they lost in the last election.
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cali373 says on Jan 4, 2007, 11:24: " a country that has lost that ability increasingly loses its ability to determine the rules of its society -- environmental protections, labor protections, health protections, safety protections." Sounds like labor union talk to me. Don't you know this kind of talk has now become un-american? It's just about PROFITS BABY, JUST PROFITS! Smile if you are a thinker! 0 funny, 0 helpful. |
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aztec says on Jan 4, 2007, 11:41: cali373, were you able... ...to get the composition published in a referred journal?
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cali373 says on Jan 4, 2007, 11:50: miamimike - That is because Bush & Company were too busy making the rich richer and selling an Unnecesary War to make the rich, richer. Besides you have to given them credit, it takes an enormous amount of effort to bullshit a nation of 300 million, and convince them. Immigration is not why the so-called "conservative" Republicans lost control, but had to with the War in Iraq and the obvious corruption and prudent disregard for ethics. I think we lost our way and this thread now has nothing to do with Colombia. Thank you to whoever called my parents responsible immigrants. I like to remember them as immigrants who started a new generation of U.S. citizens. Just as other Latino, Mexican, Italian, Russian, Jewish, Irish, and German parents did when they migrated to this country. And that is the reality of the United States. How many americans has one met that is a direct decendant of a colonial or native american? Not many I assume. Smile if you are a thinker! 0 funny, 0 helpful. |
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cali373 says on Jan 4, 2007, 14:05: Clinton was the best "Republican" president we ever had. The different is he actually threw a bone at the rest of America. Smile if you are a thinker! 0 funny, 0 helpful. |
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jay1234 says on Jan 4, 2007, 17:12: A few points... Swinn88: That is exactly what I am debating. That it is not too much too handle. Not in the healthcare arena, nor in the education arena. As far as jobs, immigrants, illegal or otherwise, do have an impact, as do any other market participants. However, it is wage distribution that is the problem, along with a broken system of taxation. My question to you, though, is what are you advocating (as a policy; it is going to be tremendously difficult to ammend the Constitution to accomplish whatever change you advocate, but I am curious what you propose)? Only the children of citizens are eligible for citizenship? And why stop there? If it is our own "self-interest" you care about, how about a caste system where only the productive are eligible for citizenship. A national exam for getting your citizenship? By the way, the earlier posts discussing the muslim immigration problem brings up something interesting. America is strong and does better than Europe BECAUSE we embrace different folks and assimilate them. Compare to Europe where the immigrants tend to mire in an underclass for succesive generations. Nope, I think America is stronger because our second and third generation Americans assimilate and do well. As to taxation...governments spend our taxes for the common good (well, in theory anyway). If I could opt out of which taxes to pay because things don't benefit me, then we would not have a need for taxes. We can't pick and choose.
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miamimike says on Jan 4, 2007, 23:05: Jay1234-Glad you thought Bush's Immigration Policy Was decent. Many Republicans and Democrats did not. I am one one these middle of the road voters who votes Dem and/or Rep depending on the issues. I cannot see, as many other Americans cannot either, rewarding people who Broke the current US Immigration Law coming here or Overstaying their Tourist' Visas with Amnesty or a path to Citizenship. If any Immigrants deserve a break it should be any of those 1000s of Visa Applicants lined up outside in the Cold and Rain at 4am in the Morning at many of our US Embassies complying with the Law. If anyone deserves a break, its these folks! Reward them for complying with our laws! Bush's plan was NO better then Reagan's IRCA Amnesty program of the late 80s where millions of Undocumenteds were granted Amnesty and citizenship and then Reagan did not close the door after he enacted this Law. As a result, many more came and now we have 12-20 Million more Illegals(depending whose count you use)clamoring for Status. Bush(john McCain, Mel Martinez, Ted Kennedy) would like to do the same now and then 20 years from now in 2027 we will have another 12-20 million Illegals. Enough is enough or the USA as we know it will not exist as it does today,,,Hello India,, "Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C. 0 funny, 0 helpful. |
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miamimike says on Jan 4, 2007, 23:14: Don Gringo I do blame Bush for a Lot Of the Immigration Bungling He had a Golden Oppurtunity do enact meaningful Immigration reform and he stuck his thumb up his Rectum and did nothing. Worse yet, Workplace Compliance under Bush practically went to Zero Arrests! What other President in 20 years has had the chance to pass Immigration Reform as Bush has: The Republicans had ALL the control-Presidency, both Houses(a majority until a few days ago) What more did one party need??????????? They Flubbed it so please don't even try to defend them or use that clinton BS! Bush was prez since 2000 last I knew and they had Total control until a few days ago! Pray tell whose fault, if not Bush and his Party,that Immigration Policy wasn't passed? "Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C. 0 funny, 0 helpful. |
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aztec says on Jan 5, 2007, 06:31: Agree with you miamimike... "He had a Golden Oppurtunity do enact meaningful Immigration reform and he stuck his thumb up his Rectum and did nothing. Worse yet, Workplace Compliance under Bush practically went to Zero Arrests! What other President in 20 years has had the chance to pass Immigration Reform as Bush has: The Republicans had ALL the control-Presidency, both Houses(a majority until a few days ago) What more did one party need???????????"
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cali373 says on Jan 5, 2007, 08:10: I guess we just don't learn. Left or right wing. It does not matter, its all about keeping power no matter what sovereignty they have to give up. And we will still get taxed. Reality check, it took six years for you guys to figure out that Bush and company do not care what 90% percent of his people think. Could it be a coincidence that the majority of those 90% are not the ones that benefit from Bush's and company policies. The 90% that saw the income of top 10% leave them far behind... Becareful what you ask for workplace enforcement of labor laws does not only include immigration laws but safety laws, breaks, work hours, overtime, payroll taxes, all those other pesky little things that employers like to cut corners on. Smile if you are a thinker! 0 funny, 0 helpful. |
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aztec says on Jan 5, 2007, 08:15: Hard to disagree with you cali373. Just tell the masses what they want to hear, get elected, then to hell with em!
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Miguel_Clavo says on Jan 6, 2007, 00:40: Oh, to be back from the Holidays! Now, to ruffle some feathers.. "You are comparing this huge problem Colombia has with illegal gringos to the problem the states has with illegal aliens? JAJAJAJJAJAJA That is all I should have done in the first place. I have not seen a post in some time of someone wanting to teach English illegally here. " DG "I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave" 0 funny, 0 helpful. |
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athensugadawg says on Jan 6, 2007, 10:09: GEE, I THINK I'LL TAKE ANOTHER BONG HIT because I KNOW that illegal aliens are not having ANY affect whatsoever on legal citizens of the US...
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jay1234 says on Jan 6, 2007, 13:28: athensudawg Do you really believe the figures in that article you referenced? Annual murder rate of 4380 Americans murdered by illegals?
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jay1234 says on Jan 6, 2007, 13:42: Facts get worse... I thought I would debunk the facts in the WorldNet article on murder and that would demonstrate the falsehoods out there. But I got to thinking and I guessed that some might not be convinced. So I dove into the drunk driving deaths issue. Rep. King says that illegal aliens kill 4745 Americans annually as a result of drunk driving. The Centers for disease control tells us that "During 2005, 16,885 people in the U.S. died in alcohol-related motor vehicle crashes."
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athensugadawg says on Jan 6, 2007, 16:19: THAT BONG HIT WAS GREAT!!! in regard to "affect" vs. "effect"...
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jay1234 says on Jan 6, 2007, 17:34: I won't take the bait... What person says that one murder is acceptable? Of course the answer is none. But let's face it, murders happen. To others, but also sometimes to loved ones. Who it happens to is irrelevant to having a reasonable policy. The question is how many murders committed by illegal immigrants justifies people being outraged and spending billions on enforcement for immigration laws. Especially when violation of those laws have a negligible effect on murder. Do you agree now that the article you cited was factually incorrect? I think by a lot. Because, I would guess that the murder rate by illegals tracks no more than roughly the same percentage of murders commited by citizens. I suspect it is much less. Why? Because most illegal immigrants come here to work. They are good people. Many of them eventually become citizens. The vast majority are working so hard, they do not get involved with high risk situations that result in murder. It is well known that illegal immigrants are incarcereated at much lower rates than citizens. See http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=871071 . They are LESS likely to commit crimes than natives. You have not offered one bit of evidence that withstood scrutiny to say illegals are causing any greater amount of murder than citizens. If they were, then there might be more of a reason for concern. Drugs, poverty, and alcohol abuse are exponentially more related to the murder rate than illegal immigration.
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athensugadawg says on Jan 7, 2007, 07:52: AND SPEAKING OF COMPENSATION.... last year a wife of a cousin of mine was involved in an accident. The driver of the other car was an illegal alien (Mexican), who happened to be very drunk. The wife of my cousin was almost killed...she was in the hospital for three months. SUPRISINGLY...the drunk illegal alien had insurance. The problem...the insurance refuses to pay. The Insurance Commissioner of Georgia has now prohibited the company that covered the drunk driver from selling insurance within the State of Georgia. This whole situation is extremely ironic given that my cousin is an employee of the insurance industry and has helped me on a couple of occasions with insurance matters. OK....so my question to you is this...what was this idiot that almost killed the wife of my cousin doing here in the first place? And why was he driving drunk in a blatant display of disrespect of our laws? So you see, it is very relevant to me and my family and to make crime a simple game of statistics is a very easy way of denying the problem.
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Sr Tertius says on Jan 7, 2007, 09:11: The Constantly Shifting Argument First, I'm not really interested in the topic. What caught my attention is the prevalence of the CSA, the constantly shifting argument, a style that I thought unique to Gomezman5 and GIB, but apparently is much more popular in PBH, as displayed here. BTW, with GIB the argument shifted so much that he even "shifted" his name to DonGringo. Anyhow, I think it goes something like this: "When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb) 0 funny, 0 helpful. |
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1cito says on Jan 7, 2007, 11:16: Miggy, thanks for pulling the rock . . I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say or maybe I just don't understand your point (English isn't my first language).
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Miguel_Clavo says on Jan 7, 2007, 11:55: Pobrecito: do your homework, and read up on current immigration opinions of the american public. "Many", meaning a lot of people, of the American public prefer a tightening, as opposed to a loosening, of immigration controls. Maybe a translator can help in this case. "Many people" refers to a portion of the US public. "I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave" 0 funny, 0 helpful. |
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jay1234 says on Jan 7, 2007, 13:46: Sr Tertius LMAO....I think you have nailed it. I don't have first hand knowledge about what happened with G5 and DG, but I see what you are talking about. Also, despite what many would suspect, I do not have any particularly strong feelings on the subject. Part of my point is that the subject of illegal immigration is not that important compared to others much more pressing issues: War. Taxes. Social Security. Global Warming. Trade. Education. Poverty. All these are way more important IMHO and have a greater effect on American public. Ok, all that said, and with full knowledge now of where we are about to go...I continue:
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athensugadawg says on Jan 7, 2007, 16:24: JAY... you're not going to change your mind...I'm certainly not going to change mine. And I have definitely done my share of travel too on the same roads that you have been on in Central and South America. But keep in mind one thing....being here ILLEGALLY is a CRIME in itself. Such a shame 9/11 could have been at least partially prevented had we picked up the Saudi illegals that overstayed their visas....but that's not a big deal, right?
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1cito says on Jan 7, 2007, 16:35: Miguelito, I guess I misunderstood. I was thinking the "I" of "Do As I Say, Not As I Do" (with regards to immigration laws) was referring to the same enity (those who are for tighter immigration).
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jay1234 says on Jan 7, 2007, 16:56: I've always said... that reasonable people can disagree. But having the debate, even if it does not change either proponents position, is healthy. I am curious if readers views have changed as a result of this discussion?
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jay1234 says on Jan 7, 2007, 17:48: A sensible solution to many problems... I think anyone following this thread can see the two positions that have emerged. Illegal immigration either is or is not a serious problem. Readers will have to decide for themselves which argument has more merit. But as I was thinking further about it, I would also like to offer what I think would be a relatively simple way to address the concerns that are out there.
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athensugadawg says on Jan 7, 2007, 19:59: JAY.... I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with a comprehensive guest worker program. My beef is that I personally feel that it is imperative that we know who and how many are here in this country. Besides being able to know who is here, it would also allow for the modulation of the influx according to the economic conditions. Georgia is rapidly becoming the hub of illegal immigration, it possibly has the largest number of illegal immigrants per capita of any state. There are areas that are honestly reaching the breaking point, and oddly enough they are primarily relatively rural with a large agricultural base...I recently saw a report on CNN where 50% of preschoolers in a small town in GA I have never heard of are immigrants (there was no comment on whether the children are citizens or have papers).
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Sr Tertius says on Jan 7, 2007, 20:46: "Sr Tertius, is this your prophecy come true?" Jay1234: I take my hat off to you. Seriously. Your persistence on unreciprocated politeness and clarity has yielded more affable replies and maybe some closure on agreements and disagreements. Me, I would've replied with juvenile sarcasm: It's not so much arrogance as lack of patience. "When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb) 0 funny, 0 helpful. |
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miamimike says on Jan 8, 2007, 07:10: We Already have a Template For A sucessful Guest Worker program. Trouble is some of our large industries care not to use it; they would rather do things illegally and so would some of the workers. Herein lies the problem. The Florida Sugar Industry south of Lake Okeechobee has had a Successful guest worker program for decades. The Workers came from the Bahamas and Jamaica. They came for the Sugar Cane Cutting season and as soon as it was (is) over, they return home. They know they have to return home from the getgo. While here, the industry supplied housing at very good(subsidized) rates, they have meals and healthcare provided. Many of the same workers came for decades, The Sugar industry even sponsored some of these workers for LEGAL(Key)for permenent US Residency at their plants in Clewiston, depending on Need and demand of the industry. The Industry was happy as were the workers. Many workers used their earnings to build some pretty nice houses in the islands as well as bsuinesses. Their Kids had a chance at College with their earnings here, some came to south florida for their university education. The Key word is Legal-all this done the legal way and the Cane workers knew the Gameplan well in advance-when the season was over, they go home. This program is largely in disuse now due to mechanized Cane Cutters so not many workers are needed these days. This guest worker plan could be used for many other agriculture states also but we need a handle who is in this country for the betterment of the USA. Work in Immigration for any more then a day or so and you will soon see the results of illegal, unbrideled immigration and what it does a country and its limited resources,,, "Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C. 0 funny, 0 helpful. |
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jay1234 says on Jan 8, 2007, 18:13: ya termino Athensugadawg- Not sure we disagree on "amnesty." Depends on the terms. Not everyone who wants should be given instant status. However, there probably should be mechanisms for those who contribute to our society to eventually gain some status. Maybe just permanent residency? Probably safe to say we do disagree on the re-enforcing criminal behavior (mainly on the significance of that behavior...right back to our main debate jaja). |