Disappointed

elmodefoque says on Nov 24, 2004, 07:24:

welcome to the world of colombias so called "elite" or peso rich.

I'll get there, when I get there!

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Sam Salmon says on Nov 24, 2004, 07:49:

Sad and Yet.... It's sad and also ironic that the secretary's mothers probably were maids who worked themselves to the bone so their daughters could obtain some education.
OTOH-one must consider that the company itself is somewhat enlightened to even consider allowing the maids to study English-in that respect they are trying to lead by example.


' a la orden!'

' a la orden!'

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Lauthra says on Nov 24, 2004, 08:48:

I know... Not only do upper class people try too look down on the rest, but working class people accept that situacion so readily. We were very uncomfortable with having our maid that comes once a week eat seperately from us, but yet again, it was very difficult to convince her to eat with us at the table. She does it now and she's fine, but I doubt she does with any of her other 'clients'.

Nato

Nato (='.'=)

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Nov 24, 2004, 09:09:

In some places in the north of Bogota some of them still wear uniforms you know the ones with the little white hat o whatever you called it and white aprons they look so funny and is weird to see that in this century still. sometimes with housemaids you have to keep a line otherwise (ellas se echan a la locha) no treating them like slave but to let them know who's the boss.
oopsss now you all are going to tell me off :(
but I don't treat them bad

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 24, 2004, 10:17:

Didn't you have similar complaints about Mexico? Shane, didn't you have similar complaints about Mexico? I agree that the class rigidity here can be shocking to a Canadian or US citizen but if it's so painful to you then maybe Latin America is the wrong place to call home?

I have a few Colombian colleagues who treat the "lower" classes poorly. I always try to lead by example by showing lots of respect and appreciation to the drivers, waiters, maids, etc., but I think certain people just have their "superiority" complex ingrained in them since childhood and will never get over it. Ultimately, it's their loss.

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Miguel says on Nov 24, 2004, 10:54:

I can sort of relate I am fortunate to have Colombian friends that don't draw that "class line", but I did have a girlfriend from the upper crust of Guayaquil, Ecuator who immigrated here and she constantly busted my balls for talking with the "hired help" in restaurants that employed Spanish speakers.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Nov 24, 2004, 11:08:

agree I've always made a point of being not just especially polite and correct when treating people from lower socioeconomic classes, but not giving any preferential treatment to anybody "higher up", and have often been critized by spending time with the maids and other hired help. Some people in the middle class ar extremely selective about the people they can be seen talking to, especially at any length. The idea is that you shouldn't mix with the chusma. I find this attitude deplorable. I talk to anybody I feel like, and that's the reason I love going shopping and malls by myself, not with anybody from the family, because that way I feel free to chat with the salesladies, taxidrivers, just anybody I come to contact with.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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mad_lion says on Nov 24, 2004, 11:26:

wait a minute!!!!!! I'm sorry, but I will HAVE to throw the Bull*** flag on the field for this one!

You mean to tell me that a "secretary" considers herself high-class in Colombia??....LOL don't make me laugh! How is a secretary high class or better than a maid? Isn't a secretary a servant too? Or in many cases in Colombia especially, they are the "other woman"!!

Pleaaaaaze....if a secretary is high class in Colombia..then hell, I may as well be presidential status with what I do for a living!

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Nov 24, 2004, 12:24:

some of them most secretaries working for larger companies do come from the middle class background. Especially the bilingual ones are often daughters of fairly well-situated families. They are high-school graduates, plus additional studies in secretarial skills. It's who they are, from what kind of neighborhoods and homes they come from rather than being secretaries that defines their class status.
The maids usually haven't finished school, some are almost illiterate, all of them come from poor homes or from mountain villages and hamlets, small coastal communities or the belts of misery around all major Colombian cities.
It's these different socioeconomic backgrounds that makes the difference, not what they do for a living.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Nov 24, 2004, 12:30:

blatant chauvinism yes, in Colombia when you advertise a job opportunity for a secretary, a receptionist, a sales clerk...almost anything except really professional opportunities the chauvinism is totally apalling. They justify it by saying that a secretary or a receptionist is the company'e face outwards, the first person a visitor meets, and she should be pleasant and "representative" (whatever that may mean, I'm not sure). You file a job application with your picture, age, marital status, height, weight, measurements (ok..not that..but almost). If you don't attach a picture you've got no chance to be called to an interview.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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kernow62 says on Nov 24, 2004, 14:38:

Sounds like Britain a few years ago, and not that many years ago either. You could be a multi-millionaire, but if you weren't born into the "right" family you weren't anybody, nevermind the fact that the chap born into the "right" family might not have a penny to his name. Class still exists but in PC times it is not as obvious, hell it even happens in perfect USA, they just talk behind their backs rather than to one's face. It is more out in the open in Colombia.

We might be upset, but the best we can do is lead by example. Who are we to say how another culture should act, we are guests in Colombia. If we chose to treat maids, waiters, street sweepers as equals as I believe we should, then perhaps it will make someone feel better about themselves.

I don't think class distinctions will ever change, it is just how one behaves that we can hope will change.

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mad_lion says on Nov 24, 2004, 16:39:

but wait............. Secretaries???????

Plllleeeaaazze. High-clas?? haha..that's a good one...please tell me another one. I am enjoying the great laugh from just reading that. If a secretary feels this way, I'd hate to see what a woman who holds a high posistion of power thinks of herself....like a a female CFO for example...

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anairda says on Nov 24, 2004, 18:59:

I am colombian and I know I must be one of the few who knows my maid´s birthday or even buys her presents and stuff for for no reason just as a way of thanking her for washing and cleaning. I even tell her not do do some chores because I`m not completely useless. I pay her more than the minimum and trust her all the way. I know people who live in "estrato 6" in a lousy cave buying fake louis vuitton bags just to say they live in a rich neighborhood and they are always broke. People everywhere live by appearances, and Ive met many in the U.S. too. the difference is that this is a poor country and the ones who have a bit more money than others have an unexplained urge to show it... and turns his back on the poor. For one thing I respect the poor and try my best to help, the best way I Know how is to smile, respect, and help.

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Lionheart says on Nov 24, 2004, 21:00:

ugh - I am disgusted How many in the USA seek the subway stations in the winter to avoid freezing to death in the winter? How many are forced into poverty because child support cuts 50% of their paycheck, even if they are minimum wage or on unemployment?

How many in the USA hire maid services to clean their homes, best never seen because they are at work?

Yes, in the USA secretaries also think they are better than normal workers, even if treated with no respect and they have to work their asses off.

US law says no discrimination .. no age, family issues, kids, bla bla

Well, the in-person interview decides if you are hired, I see no difference to Colombia. This is in regards to executive secretaries. On the lower level you get hired to keep equal employment numbers right.

Fudge, same rule applies to Europe - as secretary your are also just a servant - but you work for a company and not a private home.

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 24, 2004, 21:09:

There are some differences between Colombia and North America or Europe. When my wife worked in the textile plant she was the only woman supervisor - she ran an entire factory floor with about 90 people - and she was subjected to constant sexual harassment. I told her if she had experienced the same treatment here, she'd be retired now - she could have sued them for all they were worth. In Colombia, you have very few of the laws that protect workers (especially women) here.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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adrimm says on Nov 25, 2004, 02:06:

Lionheart The problem is that in colombia what you do for a living follows you around outside of your job and gets stuck to your family, it becomes what others define you as, vastly more than in North America.

I cannot (unfortunatly) count the number of times that I have heard the phrase "oh she was just a maid", "oh she was just a secretary", "son una familia de obreros", spoken in a dismissive way. It's revolting.

Yes, whether people admit to it or not, this does happen in North America, but the extent pales in comparison to the the razors that exist in Colombia. I know of people who have completely made up or hidden their past in order to move on in a chosen proffesion becuase there are still those out there who will judge them by their past and roots.

My very own aunt slammed the reality of it to me when I was 13 yrs old and loaned a blouse to the maid of the house (a 14 yr old campesina girl) for a festival. It is a small village and she hadn;t been able to go the her home to get her party dress so I offered her a blouse. When my aunt found out she blustered and sputtered in anger saying "How dare you? You don;t know what she has or where she's been. She's the *maid*".

Utopia: my mother was chemical plant supervisor in the mid 70s. I recall her telling me that they had to let alot of people go in her first weeks at the job becuase they wouldn't take direction from a woman. She frequently had meetings with external people (99% men), some of whom didn't take her seriosly and "misbehaved"; on multiple occasions some of her floor staff had to step in to escort the visitors out.

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Skippy says on Nov 25, 2004, 06:22:

I must comment I must reply to Mr. Hollywood's statement that perhaps I should not live in Latin America if I Feel sad about what i see. That is quite an unfair statement. Living and experiencing another culture helps us grow as people. How can I grow and learn as a person if I simply shut off my feelings and live in my little material world. This is a very cold attitude. It is exactly why I decided to leave Canada in the first place. To see the real world not the material first class image I was constantly bombarded with. COLOMBIA HAS SUCH BEAUTY, BUT ALSO MUCH SADNESS. It is important to see both and accept them or stand up and say..... this is wrong. If no one says anything what justice is there in the world.

Yup

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villdkatta says on Nov 25, 2004, 07:04:

Shane - do not worry... we are all opinionated here, and I don't Mr. Hollywood meant what he was saying in a bad way (I inferred that he believes it can happen anywhere, not exclusivly in Colombia, which is correct IMHO).

You are right, though, it's usually beneficial to question things that you don't think are right versus accepting them the way they are. Since when is anyone "superior" to others because they were born with more money (or are comfortable with incurring more debt)?

My "golden rule" in life relates to the old saying, "The true value of a man's worth is measured by how he treats those who can do nothing for him". When I remember that, I'm on the straight track. I also teach my kids that they aren't better than people with less money than we have, and that people that have lots of disposable income and vacations in France aren't better than them.

Take care,

Kim

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DiegoDelNorte says on Nov 25, 2004, 07:17:

Gotta "Fix" Everything OK, I'll admit that some of this stuff doesn't seem fair. But name one place where life is fair.

However: One of the ugliest North American traits is the desire to impose their own way of life on everyone they encounter, and the whole "Oh, isn't Colombia beautiful! Let's change it!" thing is another example.

You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 25, 2004, 07:22:

Shane I just want to be sure you understand that comment you were offended by was a question, and not a rhetorical one. I've lived places that I really didn't particularly feel an affection for or felt alienated by the culture, and chose to leave for that reason. It's always worth asking yourself if you're in the right niche for your own happiness.

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ScreamingGuitar says on Nov 25, 2004, 08:04:

Unfair I write in relation to Shane's email. I was really saddened by his story, however, this incident tells me that things haven't changed in Colombia since I left the country about 7 years ago. I am a Canadian Citized by birth, but I am half Colombian as well.. I lived there for many years, and I think Colombia is an amazing country, especially because of its people, but there seems to be a collective mentality amongst some Colombians. The whole thing about maids just puzzles me. Yes, they have lower education, and some of them can't read and write, but does that mean they're lower than everybody else???? I even know of people in Colombia, who have worked their way up to the more or less top and they insist on showing their maid who is boss and not giving them an inch. If only people treat others, the way they would like to be treated!!!!

Oh yeah, before leaving Colombia when I was 17, I worked for a few months as a secretary for an engineer, who insisted on everybody calling him 'doctor'.. ok, my question is: What's up with the titles down there? The differences within not only social classes, but also types of work/jobs, positions within a company are so heavily marked, I can't even start to comprehend it!!!!.. I do feel lucky to have had the opportunity of living in Colombia, but also of being able to explore other cultures, and ways of thinking through extensive travelling, which truly does give anybody an open mind!..

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DiegoDelNorte says on Nov 25, 2004, 08:08:

Not the Canadians "One of the ugliest North American traits is the desire to impose their own way of life on everyone they encounter"

Uh, re-reading my own post, I think maybe I need to exclude the Canadians and Mexicans from that. Maybe I should say US instead of North American.

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villdkatta says on Nov 25, 2004, 08:16:

Maybe... it's best to avoid generalizations altogether?

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ScreamingGuitar says on Nov 25, 2004, 08:31:

it's best to.. avoid generalizations if you can... I agree..

I am sure it doesn't only happen in Colombia..

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villdkatta says on Nov 25, 2004, 08:41:

Exactly..... it happens were I am (in North America) all of the time. Some people in this town that have little income but lots of debt go prancing around like they're morally superior to anyone that tries to live a simple life. My religion focuses on simplicity and living within ones' means and even though I could live high on the hog, I don't think it makes me a better person so I'm shunning excess material stuff. Then again, I don't want to change or fix anyone else, so I let them live their morally superior lives, and I am happy in my own world.

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DiegoDelNorte says on Nov 25, 2004, 09:11:

Generalizations, otra vez Refer to my other posts regarding generalizations. I regard them as a very useful part of the human intellectual repertoire.

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Lionheart says on Nov 25, 2004, 13:37:

Asian generalization The situation in Asia is much more extreme than anything described here so far. The caste systems that have existed for thousands of years now are impossible to break, many governments have tried to change them with no success.

I always find it amusing when an Asian businessman comes to the USA and finds out that his business partner is a woman. For them it is the highest culture shock you can imagine, and often it becomes very embaressing for both sides. I know of a few cases where the Asian company refused to do business with a US company just because they would have had to deal with a woman in a management position.

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caslug says on Nov 25, 2004, 14:19:

I agree... that in developing nations(asians, latin, eastern european, or african nations) where they have establish class/gender system in place, cultural problems sometimes arise when they have to work with business from the first world, where class/gender is not AS importanted.

I recently had dinner in Bogota w/ a 40 yr account/controller after her work. She wore a typical business suite, and I asked her if that was her company uniform. She reply, no only the secretary and assistances have to wear uniform. But as she did not, she corrected me quite proudly. When I told her that in USA, a secretary can wear anything they like as long as it is professional attire, she was a little suprise. She was much more suprise when I told her that their a women excutive and secretary can wear very similar clothes(business attire).

I walked around Bogota and saw tons of women in the red or blue "business uniforms", when I was in japan for work a few years back, it was the same. In japan, they even have a name for it, "office ladies", secretary, assistances, etc., who are different than the "educated" ladies that hold "white collar positions".

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kernow62 says on Nov 25, 2004, 16:53:

So is Japan considered a developing nation whilst the US is considerd a developed one?

Japan to me would be considered a very developed nation but one that just happens to have a class system in place.

Personally I see no problem with calling a boss, sir or doctor, doctora or Mr. X. In some cases it is better to keep employees from becoming too familiar with their boss. I do not see it as demeaning in any way, just a mark of respect. To me it seems unusual to call one's boss, Bill or Frank.

I guess it is just how we are brought up, what I consider the norm or a Colombian may consider the norm is not what someone from the US or perhaps China would consider the norm.

I also hold doors for women. :-)

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 25, 2004, 17:39:

Adrimm, interesting to see that not much has changed in Colombia in 30 years! Is your mother a chemist or engineer?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Chuck says on Nov 25, 2004, 21:07:

About the office uniforms.... A lot of secretaries I've talk to, love their uniforms.. cause they are uniform! No differences between those with a rich or a poor background. Most have to help at home with their income and they need all the money and have little left to spend in fancy attire, others have wealthier parents and without a uniform, then they would wear the latest Milan outfits. So uniforms ease the work environment.
A good "dumb" friend of mine, appeared in the newspapeper as Medellin's best dressed woman a few years ago. She worked at a no uniform company. Today she is jobless and has absolutely no savings. It's a burden for his family! Meanwhile Mr. Armani enjoys the good life!

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 26, 2004, 06:16:

Uniforms When kids nanny started working for us she asked me, "do you want me to wear a uniform?" I said, "No, wear whatever you want to be comfortable."

She now wears her uniform almost every day because she feels more comfortable that way.

Weird.

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litost says on Nov 26, 2004, 06:23:

What's so weird or degrading about a uniform anyways??? Americans don't seem to get it on this one. It's not hard to imagine how it can be very convenient for lower income workers - heck, for just about anyone - to not have to get up in the morning every day to the ominous question "what will I wear today?".

I studied high school in Colombia, and was so happy and relieved to be wearing a uniform just like everyone else... after painful years in american Middle School trying to fit in (never did). Gringos: individualism can be sacrificed from time to time... and it doesn't mean fascism or economic segregation.

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villdkatta says on Nov 26, 2004, 06:29:

I'm all for uniforms I used to wear them to work and they are washable and inexpensive. Now I work in an office where everyone wears fancy clothes and worships Talbot's (bleck) and dry cleaning is expensive. When I make a house call to go into a patient's home, I can't wash that business suit in the washer like I could with my scrubs.

This gringa is all for uniforms!

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 26, 2004, 06:32:

Weird What I meant by weird was that my own cultural bias was that uniforms are something imposed on workers, not something they choose. I was wrong. All I care is that my nanny feels comfortable and happy in her work. If she wanted to wear a coctail dress or a snowsuit it really wouldn't matter to me.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Nov 26, 2004, 09:09:

uniforms I'm not all that crazy about uniforms. Yes, they are very practical, and something very "democratic" in the sense that nobody needs to worry about dress codes or looking smarter or better dressed than somebody else. The Codigo del Trabajo stipulates that the employer is obligated to provide the maid with working clothes; usually this is interpreted as uniforms.
The traditional waitress uniform here is the white blouse and a black skirt; looks classy and neat.
School uniforms are totally unknown here.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Dan says on Nov 26, 2004, 11:13:

uniforms "School uniforms are totally unknown here."

In Bogota? Sure there are. I've seen lots of them. Mostly on the younger grades.
(I appologize of that's not what you're refering to)

God Bless America!

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 26, 2004, 11:18:

She's in Sweden Desi is in Sweden, where you only find school uniforms as bedroom props.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Nov 26, 2004, 11:21:

very funny!
LOL.We've actually been discussing school uniforms here in Sweden, pretty disgusted with our 6-year-old-girls trying to look like britney spears with a bare midrift with -15 C.
cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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caslug says on Nov 26, 2004, 11:29:

uniforms... Let it be known that americans have no problem w/ uniforms... we have a saying in US, "women love men in uniform". Uniform is typically worn to denote job responsibilty, whatever that maybe. A policeman and a McDonald worker both wear uniforms, so does a doctor or nurse. Even in corporate america, there is uniform, except it's more of a dress code than actualy uniform itself. Suite&Tie for corporate finance world for example.

I guess if secratary in COL get uniform for free, then it's great! They don't have to spend money on clothes. I didn't know that it was free.

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vettra says on Mar 24, 2005, 18:57:

Colombian secretaries in Canada Should tell them secretaries they will never be qualified to enter Canada, as such attitudes are not allowed.
Greg/Atlanta

Greg Atlanta, GA

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itaguifun says on Mar 26, 2005, 14:01:

Great that people know there place Workers are paid. They should do what they are told. People who pay them should be able to hire whomever they like. Workers are able to leave their jobs and look elsewhere.

Seems great

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ARMacleod says on Mar 27, 2005, 06:33:

itaguifun, From which planet you from?
Before your pod returns to pick you up again, look around you. Weep. I sugest that with your attitude, you are probably one of the reasons for the problems in the first place.

Take hold of your ears and pull your head out of your arse.

Pax vobiscum, brother.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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ARMacleod says on Mar 27, 2005, 06:35:

For everyone else I wore uniforms for just under 24 years, 22 Army, 2Police. When I was in the forces it was my family. Everyone was equal (Some were a little more equal than others).

There was no noticeable class system, Just a little perhaps. Prince Michael of Kent, Lord Soames, Allenby ( of Desert fame) and many other notable war heroes and sons of same.

No one had their noses stuck in the air. 500 people in the Regiment and I knew everyones first name. Everyone just got stuck into the task in hand and helped everyone else.

Leaving the forces, I then realised that I would never fit into this system. I find even now, Civilians are ‘hard to take' ( I could just about tolerate my wife at the time)

Civilians? Yes, they are guilty of everything mentioned above and other things not mentioned. But that is what everyone in the world is like. I was in a ‘clan' they were another group.

By nature we are all born equal, we do not always have equality of opportunity.

........Jamesvelezhernandez 1940 200?.......

Being of unsound mind and dubious disposition, I cannot be held legally liable for any indiscretions."¡El diablo me hizo hacerlo!" But don't worry, be happy.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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ARMacleod says on Mar 27, 2005, 07:05:

Same spelling mistake? Same staccato phraseology, same abrupt incomplete statements, same mental attitude?? Does anyone smell a kerry bird near here?

Being of unsound mind and dubious disposition, I cannot be held legally liable for any indiscretions."¡El diablo me hizo hacerlo!" But don't worry, be happy.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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itaguifun says on Mar 27, 2005, 14:45:

Hi JamesVH I am interested to find out which part of my statement you find most shocking or gives you the impression that I am an alien? The idea that people who get paid to work should do as they are told or find another job? SHOCKING stuff. And by the way-what is the problem of which tou speak?

It would be easy for me to jump to conclusions about who you are and what you do(or don't do) by your flowing prose, however, I think it best to maintain a level of decency when expressing my opinions so as not to drag the conversation into the gutter.

Take Care

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ARMacleod says on Mar 28, 2005, 03:56:

HI, Itaguifun. "Workers are paid" Of course they are paid, they would not work if they were not paid. The phrase is not information, it is a statement in the context to which you have placed it.

"They should do what they are told". A command, you mean? Again it smacks of autocratic dogmatism.

"People who pay them should be able to hire whomever ( Whoever or whomsoever perhaps) they like" Simple, they do and that is not disputed. It is the hidden meaning that is the questionable part here. What you were trying to say in a kind of sledgehammer kind of way was. "I shall chose who will work for me, and I shall chose those who will react without question and take whatever financial pittance that I am willing to give them.

"Workers are able to leave their jobs and look elsewhere" If you had said that in England, USA, Germany and countries of similar economic stature, I could have gone along with you. But, because of your previous tactless and badly managed statements, I would encourage people to leave your employ and look for work elsewhere.

Me? I teach Management Skills and amongst other things, Industrial Law, Chemical Handling, Plant and Equipment Training, Industrial Safety, in total, 45 different disciplines all work related.

Perhaps you meant:
There is usually the option of leaving as soon as you can find another job. This may take time but no one has to keep working where they are unhappy.

Good management skills will usually root out the unsuitable personnel before they are hired and this saves time, money and disappointment on both sides.

If the work conditions are so deplorable, you can be sure that you will not be the only one who will leave.
Or something similar?

Can I interest you in a Man Management Course? Or perhaps in a book 'How to Win Friends and Influence People'

Pax vobiscum

James.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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elmodefoque says on Mar 28, 2005, 05:51:

My mother worked as a maid for 3 months in a miserable middle class Barranquilla home. I went there to see her and was repulsed by the way she was treated and immediately told her that if she does not quit that job, I will bring my brothers and a group of friends to bitch slap all the women, rape all the men and then eat their dog. Even in our desperate poverty I found her job demeaning and dehumanizing. The dog was treated more like a human being than she was, and all for a lousy miserable few pesos. Now, if she was getting paid 15 dollars an hour like in the good old NYC, USA then it would be a different ball game, but the salary was offensive. Please don’t tell me that a maid is absolutely necessary, in over forty years living in NYC; I have yet to meet a family that has a maid. How is it possible that some two bit, pretentious, pompous, ostentatious, third world family finds it so absolutely necessary to have a person pick up after their disgusting mess while families in the filthiest, richest most powerful country in the planet (and no, I’m not talking about Guatemala, I’m talking about the freaking USA) with all their sickening wealth, have no need for a maids, even Donald Trump picks up his crappy underwear, and Bill gates gets up to get his own battle of Avien water when he’s thirsty.

I'll get there, when I get there!

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dwmte says on Mar 28, 2005, 07:07:

itaguifun... hello...

i, too, found your observations of employer/employee to be a tad on the terse side...i did however, support your non offensive responce to james' quite stern observations.

well that's not even two cents worth. but, then,

i never found itagui to be fun...not even remotely. but that's just me. for all this, james is gonna 'dress me down' and you're gonna probably conclude that i'm no fun.

dw

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ARMacleod says on Mar 28, 2005, 07:47:

Itagui?? Douglas: I don't get that is it a connotation of the 'tag' game? No dressing down, you're correct, I was a bit hard but then I cannot and will never apologise for my status as a humanitarian.

itaguifun: Yes I do apologise for the manner of my observational remark, but not for the accuracy of the content. kerry is the only person deserving the castigations for being a fool, you are clearly not such a person. If you read my answer I hope you will be able to understand my meaning more clearly and not take it as an insult.

elmo: I just cannot compete with you at all. Such absolute eloquence in such a flowing manner. You have the unique ability to put into such a few words all that I would take a long and over loquacious vituperation to put over. I am learning from you though. Live long and prosper sir and may your herd of burras increase tenfold.

....500 persons need to to be poor to make one person rich....
( I think it was old dodginees who said that one?)

Pax vobiscum.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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utopiacowboy says on Mar 28, 2005, 09:07:

You kill me, Elmo. That was a helluva post, dude! I'm still chuckling. Donald Trump and his dirty undies....

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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utopiacowboy says on Mar 28, 2005, 09:10:

I'm with you on Itagui, DW. A really miserable industrial area. My sister-in-law used to live there until they moved into my wife's apartment. My wife worked at one of the textile plants out there for many many years.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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itaguifun says on Mar 28, 2005, 13:47:

Hello JAMES.... I appreciate the time you have taken to air your thoughts on human resource management. I have taken nothing personally and am always open to learning. That being stated, upon reflection, the simple truths outlined in my original statement are more palatable in an economy such as that of the US or the EU. They are substantially uglier truths in an economy such as Colombia's, however, truths they remain.

Certainly I did state them in a kind of sledgehammer way, my view tainted by the hordes of lazy workers in the US that I have encountered in my life. With all your experience James, I am sure you know the type; they feel like they are doing you a favor when they show up for work and they want a raise every three weeks.

Thank-you for recommending me the book and the class. I have read the book (it was mediocre at best) and as far as the class is concerned-all done with classes my friend. Life experiences, literature and communication with others are my teachers now :-).

I consider myself fortunate to have provoked such an accomplished individual as you, forty-five work related disciplines, all I can write is WOW. I look forward to any and all further exchanges.

James do you live in Colombia or get there often? I would like to live there one day and would find your insights invaluable.

Finally, I would challenge your observation on my use of "whomever". If I remember correctly, "people" was the subject of the sentence rendering "whomever", the correct objective pronoun. Additionally, you gave "whomsoever" as an acceptable replacement for "whomever", they, my friend, are synonymous.

What’s the matter anyhow, don’t you speak American? :-p

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ARMacleod says on Mar 29, 2005, 10:06:

Hi again itaguifun Apologies for the tardiness of the reply. Many pressures, little time.

Yes I do understand your comment put into those terms. It used to be called the ‘British sickness' in the 70s. Hard line trade unionists, Red Ken, Arthur Scargill, and the like. In the same way that Oswald Mosely stirred up the fascist hatred much earlier, the work shy followed and brought the country almost to its knees.

When people are worried about their security they will follow anyone who gives them hope.

I think that what we have come upon here is something different though. The workers in Colombia seem to work for peanuts, they know very little else. Why do the people in Colombia want to leave the country? Because in the light of modern invention and innovation they can see what everyone in the more prosperous countries around the world have and they want some of it.

Can we really blame them? I read elmos story and it makes me sick to my soul. It is only tolerable to read by the additional humour, which I have no doubt is meant to make the content less appalling.

Me? I have lived in Bogota on just one occasion, with my lady friend and then later, lived in Oxfordshire in England with her for six months. It is my intention to move to Bogota permanently in about three or four months time (when I retire) There we will marry.

I will not parry swords with you sir, especially on the grammatical use of the terms you state. i.e. Whoever v whomsoever, I have no knowledge of the status of the pronoun or indeed that so simple as the indefinite article, to me it is a question of the antediluvian coherence of the idiom, this has to be in apportion with the formulation for the ear as well as the perusing eye when uttered, rather than the grammatical exactitude.

Sorry, I cannot speak American yet, but I am beginning to empathize with the thesis of it. Perhaps sometime in the future you can teach me the art of changing the word spelling and to recognise the manner of expressing it to mean the same thing? But not to nite, knight night knite, bollocks later.

Pax vobiscum
James.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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itaguifun says on Mar 29, 2005, 12:25:

I will not parry swords with you sir-gotta luv that line That is a classic and I will forever be in your debt for presenting it to me. I greatly admire the way an educated Englishman writes/speaks.

I would not have taken issue with you on the grammatical usage point had it not been for your condescending grammar lesson a few posts back. We have a simple saying for a fellow such as yourself: If you throw enough shit at a wall something's got to stick.

I have always found it a bit distasteful when a man cannot admit he was wrong and tries to hide behind blustery language and worthless titles. The following is a good example:

"I have no knowledge of the status of the pronoun or indeed that so simple as the indefinite article, to me it is a question of the antediluvian coherence of the idiom, this has to be in apportion with the formulation for the ear as well as the perusing eye when uttered, rather than the grammatical exactitude."

So I guess you said (for those of us who don't speak arsehole) "I didn't know what the hell I was writing about when I corrected you." You see, James, this is not about grammar it is about trying to be something you are not, in this case it happened to be a grammar teacher. There can be no doubt that you are a highly articulate and literate man, but lets cut the bullshit.

My we have come a long way from "grab your ears and pull your head out of your arse"

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adrimm says on Mar 29, 2005, 12:27:

UTC To answer your question (from way back when), she was a chemist. I can't say *is* becuase her credentials became meaningless when she emigrated.

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ARMacleod says on Mar 29, 2005, 12:35:

OK, point taken. Just one minor correction though. I am Scottish.

Pax vobiscum
James.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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utopiacowboy says on Mar 29, 2005, 12:43:

Mi pregunta? No recuerdo. Pero muchas gracias!

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Albatross says on Mar 29, 2005, 13:55:

Sir James... Apparently I-Man doesn't mind "parrying swords" with you... ouch... right in the nuts!

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Profesora says on Apr 24, 2005, 01:07:

Savoir Faire Good one, poco.

In English, the French term "Savoir faire" is used when talking about calm behaviour in the event of a crisis.

Three departmental directors: an American, a Frenchman, and a Colombiano were discussing the meaning of "savior faire" in Cross-Cultural mangagement training in their company.

The American says

"Hey, listen, I know the meaning of this phrase. Let's say I go home one night from work, I go up to the bedroom, and I see my wife in bed with another guy. I shut the door, go downstairs and wait for them. Calmly. That is "savoir faire".

The Frenchman, who naturally feels superior to the American, says:

"Non, Non, mon ami. I am French. I know the true meaning of this phrase. I go home from work one night, I go upstairs, I seem my wife in the compromising position with the other man. I look at them, and say, 'Please, continue'. I THEN go down the stairs and wait, calmly. THAT is savoir faire.

The Colombiano looks at them and smiles. He says "My friends, you are both wrong. Let's consider the situation. I go home, I go to the bedroom, I see my wife giving me the horns with some son of a bitch. I look at them. I say "please, continue." Now, if THAT man can continue, then THAT is savoir faire.

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Profesora says on Apr 24, 2005, 01:08:

Savoir Faire Good one, poco.

In English, the French term "Savoir faire" is used when talking about calm behaviour in the event of a crisis.

Three departmental directors: an American, a Frenchman, and a Colombiano were discussing the meaning of "savior faire" in Cross-Cultural mangagement training in their company.

The American says

"Hey, listen, I know the meaning of this phrase. Let's say I go home one night from work, I go up to the bedroom, and I see my wife in bed with another guy. I shut the door, go downstairs and wait for them. Calmly. That is "savoir faire".

The Frenchman, who naturally feels superior to the American, says:

"Non, Non, mon ami. I am French. I know the true meaning of this phrase. I go home from work one night, I go upstairs, I seem my wife in the compromising position with the other man. I look at them, and say, 'Please, continue'. I THEN go down the stairs and wait, calmly. THAT is savoir faire.

The Colombiano looks at them and smiles. He says "My friends, you are both wrong. Let's consider the situation. I go home, I go to the bedroom, I see my wife giving me the horns with some son of a bitch. I look at them. I say "please, continue." Now, if THAT man can continue, then THAT is savoir faire.

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dwmte says on Apr 24, 2005, 07:23:

this "disappointed" thread... has become really disappointing....

it's always the same...mucha lucha, knee deep in bullshit and people trying their best to get at each other's throats...with or without showing it.

i'm gonna say it one more time...there ain't no fun in itagui.

you're right, utopia...everyone else is wrong

and james, you should be proud of yourself for not being ashamed...

and 'fun' your're basically right on if you're not on someone's case.

and me, i'm outta here...

where's elmo

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colombit says on Sep 12, 2005, 18:44:

hi! my comment Well i dont know how to start, but for colombia, it is too difficult to have an american economy or candadian economy. I like how some americans treat lower class people. also i want to comment that USA maids that works for the president wore uniforms, so higher class in my country do the same as ur president, i dont thing wrong with that, it is true that colombian employers will try to pay the least they can. imagine 4 million uneployed, they will work for nothing, that is an economy thing, the good news colombia is preparing fof 2019 to become a better country coz that is our 200 birhtday as country. Now, i hope USA, and Europe can help our leaders to make something like India is doing, and to create more industries in colombia and not in china.

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colombit says on Sep 12, 2005, 18:54:

Well you miss this point well in colombia, you dont have all the detergents, and the other gadgets that american have. I hired for 4 hours a maid so she can wash my clothes and where i live.

I lived in usa, and things there are much easir with so many sfuff u have at hand for cleaning, swepper, good paper towels, good detergent to clean the vowl, where in colombia i haven been able to find such products. Now, whree i used to live in florida, many people had maids, they were latins thoug, and some americans with mony that they had maids living in their house, coz some friends work for them as their severvants one of them was women from peru and another friend from colombia. So americasn love the good live, if they have the change. I dont like to waste 3 hours cleaning my onw clothes, coz i think that is a waste of time, i could be using watching a movie, or doing something more productive, have a good day, bye!

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Lucia Rojas says on Sep 12, 2005, 21:34:

you should ve said something!...be a real teacher and show them other perspectives... its the only way to help with a granito de arena for a change.

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pepster says on Oct 3, 2005, 12:37:

Get things in perspective There is a class system here in America as well. How often are we invited to part take in meals or enjoy the same benefits as our wealthy employer?

Everybody...please get off our moral high horse.

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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aztec says on Oct 3, 2005, 17:35:

If you... ...haven't lived in Colombia you have no way of understanding the class phenomenon. I felt that the maid or lawn man was my equal and behaved that way. What a big mistake!

Don't mistreat them but they are your employees and in Colombia you had better act the part. Otherwise you will quickly lose their respect.

Don't give me the U.S. pc response. This is Colombia!

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. says on Feb 8, 2006, 06:26:

Social classes Firstly, I would like to apologies for my not good english grammar. Thinking about status, social classes never get mix in any where in the world, they obviously talk each other but not in a way of being friends, you will never see someone’s child who lives in Beverly hills studying in a public school in south Los Angeles with the rest of south Americans, this is the human nature. Now, secretaries are not high class in Colombia and they do not think so, what is true is that they think that they are more than maids, I used to work for a telecommunication company in Colombia as Financial Analyst and at the same time I was a middle class worker (probably low), I understand that it is not nice to underestimate some one just because of the job he or she does and I hate that as well, but this is a social problem that happens everywhere in the world.

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Coolgirl says on Apr 3, 2006, 17:11:

I have to agree with you Des.
I love to talk to anyone regardless of their class status or where they came . I just think that that people appreciates simple things in life more that a High class person do.
I guess me an you can go shopping together, AH Des?

Monica

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epifanio mateus franco says on Dec 27, 2006, 17:14:

Las clases sociales y la discriminacion en colombia Leyendo estos comentarios me doy cuenta mucho mas, que lo que yo estoy escribiendo en mi libro es mucho mas pervasivo de lo que se dice aqui en el foro. Los colombianos hemos estado embotellados en este territorio por los ultimos cinco siglos y todos los contactos que tenemos y las influencias extrangeras vienen a nosotros de las clases mas bajas de culturas que han desarrollado modos mas alto y mas politicamente correctos de inter-relacion. Esto no quiere decir que otras cultures no tienen castas sociales, por que las hay toda culture, lo que las hacen una forma mas idiota de inter-actuar es que en colombia no tienen sentido. Ejemplo en europa y canada los estratos estan presentados en razas. a la cabeza estan, El blanco slavo, el mediterraneo, el oriental japones y luego el chino,le siguen los negros, los nativos americano y por ultimo los latinoamericanos. En esta estructura social en la que todos los latinos estamos en el escalon mas bajo percapita.. esto se ensena en todas las universidades norte americanas en los textos de introducion a la psychologia. Lo que las sirvientas son en colombia, somos todos los latinos en el norte. Ahora cuando los latinos volvemos a colombia nos contamos mentiras de nuestros exitos y le mentimos a los colomabianos hacerca de las tragedias que recibimos a qui. Lo mas increible es que los latinos colombianos que viven en esta ilusion de clase alta estan mas locos que una cabra. Lo mismo suceden con la belleza colombiana es la idiotes mas grande de toda persona racional. En canada no dejaron a mis universo hablar en oficinas publicas por las comparan con 'hookers' y en colombia la alcurnia las reciben como mandadas de Dios. Es esta ignorancia colombiana la que es deprimente. Por que lo bueno de esta nuestra sociedad por que no es una cultura en si, esta sepultado bajo la ignorancia, el elitismo imbecil, y el matrimonio con la violencia, junto, una religion basada en sincretismo mas deprimente, todo esto puesto junto, forman el "caldo" letal en contra de la integridad humana y hasta la integridad de los animales. Por esto los colombianos somos lo que somos como sociedad tercer mundista, subdesarrollada y pobre y en estas condiciones es donde crece esta maneras de inter-relacion humana. Colombia comparada con otras sociedades y sus estructuras. Esto es asunto de toda una tesis de doctorado

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epifanio mateus franco says on Dec 27, 2006, 17:15:

Las clases sociales y la discriminacion en colombia Leyendo estos comentarios me doy cuenta mucho mas, que lo que yo estoy escribiendo en mi libro es mucho mas pervasivo de lo que se dice aqui en el foro. Los colombianos hemos estado embotellados en este territorio por los ultimos cinco siglos y todos los contactos que tenemos y las influencias extrangeras vienen a nosotros de las clases mas bajas de culturas que han desarrollado modos mas alto y mas politicamente correctos de inter-relacion. Esto no quiere decir que otras cultures no tienen castas sociales, por que las hay toda culture, lo que las hacen una forma mas idiota de inter-actuar es que en colombia no tienen sentido. Ejemplo en europa y canada los estratos estan presentados en razas. a la cabeza estan, El blanco slavo, el mediterraneo, el oriental japones y luego el chino,le siguen los negros, los nativos americano y por ultimo los latinoamericanos. En esta estructura social en la que todos los latinos estamos en el escalon mas bajo percapita.. esto se ensena en todas las universidades norte americanas en los textos de introducion a la psychologia. Lo que las sirvientas son en colombia, somos todos los latinos en el norte. Ahora cuando los latinos volvemos a colombia nos contamos mentiras de nuestros exitos y le mentimos a los colomabianos hacerca de las tragedias que recibimos a qui. Lo mas increible es que los latinos colombianos que viven en esta ilusion de clase alta estan mas locos que una cabra. Lo mismo suceden con la belleza colombiana es la idiotes mas grande de toda persona racional. En canada no dejaron a mis universo hablar en oficinas publicas por las comparan con 'hookers' y en colombia la alcurnia las reciben como mandadas de Dios. Es esta ignorancia colombiana la que es deprimente. Por que lo bueno de esta nuestra sociedad por que no es una cultura en si, esta sepultado bajo la ignorancia, el elitismo imbecil, y el matrimonio con la violencia, junto, una religion basada en sincretismo mas deprimente, todo esto puesto junto, forman el "caldo" letal en contra de la integridad humana y hasta la integridad de los animales. Por esto los colombianos somos lo que somos como sociedad tercer mundista, subdesarrollada y pobre y en estas condiciones es donde crece esta maneras de inter-relacion humana. Colombia comparada con otras sociedades y sus estructuras. Esto es asunto de toda una tesis de doctorado

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pilar1642 says on Jan 16, 2007, 19:06:

Lots of comments from this statement I am both a US and a Colombian citizen; I have lived all of my life in the US and agree that there is a lot of sadness in Colombia. When I have gone to visit I have been shocked about some of the things I witnessed. I think just developing a thick skin will help when you do encounter situations like the one you described. I guess it is safe to say that different countries come with different types of sadness.

pilar

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