'Developing' countries

Hunter says on Nov 13, 2005, 13:16:

Political correctness is to blame I ignore it, but unfortunetly many don't.

I have been to some third world Countries and there is no way that Colombia compares to them.

Hunter

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pepster says on Nov 13, 2005, 13:26:

Developing countries? More like arrested development or lack of...

Colombia is a third world nation...and until it cleans up it's act..it will remain so. But there are degrees of third worlds I guess.

The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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Rubiazo says on Nov 13, 2005, 14:22:

It's silly to classify countries anyways Back in the late 40s it made lots of sense dividing countries into three worlds, because that was a very good (although not 100% accurate necessarily) picture of the world back then. You had the 7 or 8 powerful 'Western' nations, the Soviet bloc, and then everybody else. Ironically enough, in those days Argentina would have been part of the first world.

Pepster, when I think of 'arrested development' the USA is the first country that comes to mind, NOT Colombia. Try looking at pictures of Av Caracas in Bogota 10 years ago and A-B'ing them with pictures of it today!

I can just imagine how different Colombia and Ethiopia are, if Puerto Rico, the DR, Colombia, and Brazil are all vastly different from each other and have vast differences within different parts of the country. Puerto Rico is by far the most economically well off of the four, but it has IMO the most problems and the lowest quality of living. Between the other three countries they look very similar on paper or on the UN's website, but the standards of living are very different.

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pepster says on Nov 13, 2005, 14:51:

Rubiazo I agree with everything you said except for the fact you may think the USA is in arrested development. Just because Colombia might have some drastic changes they are way, way behind the US in every aspect. Have you seen New York City transform in the last ten years...it was full of drugs, bums and garbage...look at it now.

You ruin your good argument with a needless comment about the US. I think a lot of posters destroy their credibility with their anti-Americanism.

The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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kernow62 says on Nov 13, 2005, 15:06:

Not true pepster. Colombia, specifically Bogotá is ahead of many American cities in several ways. Transmilenio, ciclovias, number of parks, number of universities, library usage. Perhaps behind in most aspects would be a more appropriate phrase. Oh Colombia had the Mercedes A class and the SMART car before the US too. I am still pissed about that!

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pepster says on Nov 13, 2005, 15:19:

Kernow I give you the Trasmilenio...maybe..honestly it just doesn't compare to the vastness of the New York public transportation system. But parks...you're going to compare any Bogota park to Central park? Universities...I mean how many can you fit in NYC...but you have NYU, Columbia, Fordham, Juliard, I mean all rank well and above any college or university in Bogota.

Ciclovias? This is a sign of advanced development? You have a ridiculously overcrowded city...what options can you possibly have.

I mean...I see your point but it just isn't what I meant.

The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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kernow62 says on Nov 13, 2005, 15:52:

Of course I see ciclovias as an advancement, but I am an avid cyclist, anything that gets people out of cars in my opinion is an advancement and IMHO is a sign of a progressive city. The Transmilenio is an advancement on an antiquated bus system but of course the subway is better in many ways, but it costs a hell of a lot less to maintain the Transmilenio, expanding the Transmilenio is easier and cheaper too. I was not referring to a single park but the entire system of parks which makes the parks accesible to lots of people, some of them little more than a bit of green space.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 13, 2005, 18:53:

Kernow the SMART car is illegal in the USA is it not? Something about it not being too small and the oil companies not making enough off of it :P

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Rubiazo says on Nov 13, 2005, 18:56:

re: NYC subway the subway system has gone STRAIGHT TO FUCKING HELL in the 8 years since I moved here. It's getting to the point where I wanna stangle somebody every time I have to take a train it is so SLOW! I really don't know what gives with this. Maybe the MTA can't find people who can drive the trains at any speed without crashing them anymore, who knows?

I was in HEAVEN taking that Transmilenio. Crowded, but FAST!

The Transportation Bond got approved here on Tuesday so hopefully that will make some difference. NYC's transit system is decrepit and saw its best years some 50 years ago. The only thing they have on Bogota is that they dont have as much of a capacity problem during rush hours.

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kernow62 says on Nov 13, 2005, 18:59:

Yes, that is what it is. GDL here is a photo of one that I took whilst in Bogotá http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/node/5040?res=original

They are very well laid out and are quite extensive.

This is all the more an advance in my opinion because a decade or so ago Bogotá was a completely different place with almost no investment in such things. There was little civic pride. Things have turned around. What may seem like small trivial things, such as the number of parks, the nice libraries, ciclovias, the Transmilenio, even the curiously high kerbs all work together to help make people feel civic pride. I think these changes are also part of the reason there is less crime, people actually have a sense of pride about their city.

By the way I should have written cicloruta instead of ciclovia. Cicloruta is the network of paths. Ciclovia is another nice thing. On Sunday's many busy streets are closed for several hours so that the citizens of Bogotá can ride their bikes, walk, jog, skate to their hearts content.

http://www.idu.gov.co/sist_trans/ciclorrutas.htm

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Rubiazo says on Nov 13, 2005, 19:03:

re: NYC bike paths they have been talking about this for years on end now, and are moving SO slowly it's unbelievable. And yes, this is a major thing. There is no reason why we couldn't have an AWESOME system like Bogota has. We should be totally ashamed that they are kicking our asses in this respect. I am very proud of the fact that hardly a day goes by where I don't get at least an hour of seat time on my bike.

And the way some of these idiots drive up here, they really don't deserve to be in command of all that steel hurtling down the road! They should be joining me in poking along on their bicycles, before they freaking kill somebody! I agree with kernow, anything to get cars OFF the road. I also think Bogota's very progressive and intelligent street parking ban is something that should be looked at up here. It would force half the car owners in NYC to sell or junk their cars. Good riddance I say!!!

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kernow62 says on Nov 13, 2005, 19:10:

Tinto the Smart car they were bringing to America I believe was a bomb, not the original which sold well. They designed a larger one for the US market. They aren't illegal as far as I know in the US. One of the PBH forum members father runs a company in Florida that sells them. Sales of SMART cars the first 10 months in 2005 of sales was more than sold in 2004. It is still down from the popularity it once enjoyed but far from a bomb worldwide. October sales of SMART cars was down 18% to only 12,300 units sold. I wouldn't consider that a failure for such a limited niche market model.

That was in STAR Magazine which I just happened to have received in the post last week. No mention of it being killed.

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kernow62 says on Nov 13, 2005, 19:12:

For Tinto http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/dccom/0,,0-5-7145-1-559068-1-0-0-0-0-0-243-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0,00.html

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Rubiazo says on Nov 13, 2005, 19:13:

Pepster I first visited NYC 10 years ago. I don't think it has improved at all, at least not for me. Give me the drugs, bums and garbage back!!! I HATE HATE HATE HATE the new NYC. With a passion I can't even convey on a message board. I seriously would give ANYTHING to turn back the clock and have the old NYC back, with all the amazing music, great restaurants, theater, nightlife etc. So much of this shit is just GONE now, it makes me want to fucking puke!!! Not to mention there is so much less opportunity now for virtually everyone!

When I make my comment about things going BACKWARDS, NYC is EXACTLY what I am thinking about. We have gone from being an island of culture in an otherwise completely cultureless country to being just the same as everywhere else in the USA, except for with more dirt and more rats! I honestly don't know what is the point of living here anymore, unless you are in construction or some other industry that is still booming amidst the economic stagnation.

I think in general American society is going down the toilet. The tolerance that used to be the norm here in the 1970s and 1980s is disappearing month by month. For all they rail against Islamic nations, they are becoming EXACTLY like them. We are fast on our way here to becoming a theocracy. I just hope I'm wrong, or if I'm not wrong, I hope I can get my ass out in time, and I hope my kids don't have to endure this shit. As a matter of fact, if I didn't have kids living here, I'd probably be long fucking gone by now!

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 13, 2005, 19:20:

You're right, Rubiazo. The Fundamentalist Republic of America and the Islamic republics are not altogether different. Good thing I get along with the local mullahs.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 13, 2005, 19:30:

and BTW Bogota DOES have more universities and libraries than NYC. And as for quality, every single one of those schools has markedly declining standards. NYU hasn't been a serious institution for a long time- it's basically a party school for rich assholes. I dunno how it even made your list. Fordham is pretty iffy these days too. And don't even get me started on the music schools!!!!

The only downside to Bogota's best universities is that the education is in Spanish, and the empire speaks English! Another excellent thing they have down there that NYC totally doesnt have is top-notch PUBLIC universities where the tuition is 100% FREE! NYC hasn't had that for a good 35 years now, and the CUNY system is absolutely totally shipwrecked!

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Rubiazo says on Nov 13, 2005, 19:35:

The big SMART car was made bigger because it was literally legally too small to be sold in the USA. How dumb is that that the feds are mandating a MINIMUM car size?

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 13, 2005, 20:57:

Bogota Back to the subject of this topic, a few nice modern cities don't diminish the 3rd world or "developing" nature of Colombia. There are people living in Colombia who have never seen a car. There are children dying from lack of clean water. There are people starving to death. I love the developing world and I'm certainly no snob about coming from a 1st world or developed country, but if you think Colombia ISN'T 3rd world you might want to get around a bit more.

BTW, there is a huge variation among 1st world countries as well. Turkey, Iceland, Japan and Australia don't have a ton in common, do they?

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pepster says on Nov 13, 2005, 21:25:

Oh Rubiazo Anyone reading your post without ever been to Bogota or NYC would say...hell I've gotta go to this Bogota place.

Please...your comparisons are really way off the mark. Bogota is nice..far nicer than alot of Latin American cities...but please let's not make it out for what it's not. It's embarrassing for those who really know the difference. I honestly cannot think of anyone passing up a US education for a Colombian one. I mean how can I say this without making it sound like a put down of Colombia...which it's NOT! Mentioning how many Universities Bogota has does not say absolutely anything! Libraries? Who cares everything is available to you in America, who goes to Libraries anyway? I haven't touched one in years!

Let Bogota stand on it's own merits but by comparing it to a Major world city like New York is beyond ridiculous. At this rate, you'll compare Cali to Los Angeles.


The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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Lucia Rojas says on Nov 13, 2005, 21:36:

I agree with rubiazo 100% Bogota does have all those advantages that he mentions... plus it doesn`t get sticky and disgusting during hte summer......

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Rubiazo says on Nov 13, 2005, 21:41:

Pepster When was the last time you were even here? I guess it's still a major world center, but culturally I think we are all but finished here. I think it's a major embarassment what's happened in NYC in recent years. And believe me, I fought like hell to get here and then to qualify for my green card. I'm really wondering why the hell I bothered! And no, i wouldn't recommend anybody come visit here in NYC. What the hell for? To see the rats in the subway??

Sorry man, but Bogota IS a major world city, like any other. I don't think it compares to New York, it is totally different. But it's not like you make it out, like it's several tiers below NYC. I see positives and negatives about both places. And believe you me, there are PLENTY of Rolos I know around here who have either fucked off permanently back to Bogota or are in the process of setting it up. Now that I have spent a brief stint living and working there I can totally understand them.

I fully understand that as a whole Colombia has a lot of deep-seated problems, and that Bogota is among the nicest the country has to offer. But EVERY country has areas where there are no doctors, no telephones etc. Even in the good ole USA you can go deep into Appalachia and find areas where people are still living like they were before the American Revolution, dying of diseases we've been able to treat for decades etc. I realize that Colombia probably has a much high proportion of people with these kinds of problems.

But none of this changes the fact that the USA is a fucked up place and currently in serious decline on several key fronts. We are no longer leading the pack in technology, the dollar is getting slammed on world markets, we are a good 25-30 years behind on energy policy etc.

After all the travelling I have done, one thing I have learned is that the Canadian and American assumption that they are at the top of the heap is a subjective one at best, and at worst, a complete crock of shit.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 13, 2005, 21:45:

Tinto maybe the solution doesnt lie with more cars. I think driving shouldnt even be an option for most people in any big city. Just because people want cars that doesnt mean every Tom Dick and Harry should be entitled to one! The less cars you have on the road the faster and more comfortably people will get to where they are going, the cleaner the air will be, and the healthier everyone will be!

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pepster says on Nov 13, 2005, 21:46:

well obviously ... You have a skewed opinion...I went to school in the city...and I worked for years in the city. I live exactly 8 miles from the GWB.

It's the greatest city in the world. I've been to Madrid, London, Bogota, Caracas...there is no place like it. It's unfortunate you don't think your green card was worth it but I figure there are about 100 million people on this planet that would do next to anything for it.

The US and Canada have their problems..but you know what...they are the top of the heap.. The US is the big daddy...and hating it and trashing it does diminish that fact one single bit.

The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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Rubiazo says on Nov 13, 2005, 21:57:

pepster except for ALL the musicians and artists I know here are thinking of moving out, with very few exceptions. As a matter of fact, a lot of them have already left. You can like it all you want, to us, it's vomit in our mouths right now.

I bet in 10 years immigrants are going to stop coming here in such numbers. The money is the only thing that keeps em coming. Once the economy here REALLY crashes there will be no other reason to bother.

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pepster says on Nov 13, 2005, 22:01:

I've been hearing that.. I've been hearing that since the 70's...you don't count it out. Second, New York has been notoriously rough on musicians and artists for a long time. Unless you're on broadway or already established you're wasting your time in Manhattan. You have to go to Brooklyn for the small gigs and open mics.

I bet you in 10 years...MORE people will be coming...never count out NYC. Never.


The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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Rubiazo says on Nov 13, 2005, 22:04:

It has always been rough on subpar musicians. But if you knew what you were doing you could make a LOT of money
Back in the mid 90s when merengue was big you could easily play 15-20 gigs in a WEEK, for like $150 or so each. Do the math. ALL of that has been shut down by the fuckign nazis now. Go to Roosevelt man. Do it after 9pm! Nothing open but Chibcha, and it's EMPTY!
I would have LOVED to be here in the 70s, even with all the problems the city was having. It was a much better time for the arts for sure!

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pepster says on Nov 13, 2005, 22:11:

come on Rubiazo You're talking to a musician...although I no longer play in bands.

Look what happened...Merengue..dead. Rock music as we knew it...dead. Live music...dead. You have to go to Austin for a music scene. There is no scene in LA or Chicago, or Philly. How are you going to compete with the big boys at the large venues? People don't dance anymore...dance clubs died years ago.

Now you got that shit Reaggaeton, crap merengue which is just garbage.

There is no scene. That's not New York's fault...it's people's
taste that changed. The Bowery died years ago so did Soho...Wetlands, CB's, The Academy, Don Hill's, Max's Kansas City...gone. People just stop going.

The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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Lucia Rojas says on Nov 13, 2005, 22:15:

It will never die good music will never die!!!!!!!

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Rubiazo says on Nov 13, 2005, 23:07:

Live music is still alive I saw it in Bogota. It is still alive in some other places in Latin America too. Maybe not as good as it was in NYC in the 80s and before, but much better than it is here now!

A real good friend who is the nephew of a famous jazz musician here recently moved to London. He absolutely loves it there. He is currently hanging back here for non-work-related reasons but plans to go back very soon. Neither of us are exactly starving here for work, but like you said, there is no scene anymore.

But I do blame it at least partly on government. Many popular clubs get closed because of very heavy handed police action. Part of the problem is when they cleaned up New York they decimated the underground economy, which is what feeds us as musicians. People stopped going because they are now IN PRISON!

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kernow62 says on Nov 14, 2005, 04:31:

Dance clubs are dead WTF? Come down to Florida, if you want to go dancing. I cannot believe that Florida is unique in having loads of dance clubs, new ones opening up all the time.

Rubi we used to have this really weird Latin club down here in Orlando. You could only get in if you had an invitation, the club wasn't even hooked up to the city grid they were running things off of truck batteries at night and charging them during the day. There were no signs on the exterior, no windows, no parking lot. It opened about 3AM and closed around 5AM.

I only found out about it when I was called in to open the safe for the MBI after it was finally shut down.

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kernow62 says on Nov 14, 2005, 04:47:

Tinto that was my misunderstanding of the word bomb, I was thinking in terms of lack of sales popularity, not costs outweighing profits.

Even when the SMART car was taken over by Mercedes they said they were losing money on paper on each and every car they would be selling. Part of the reason was that a completely new dealer network was set up and the costs rolled into just the SMART brand, not spread out through Mercedes. I think Mercedes benefited a bit from the design so perhaps some R&D was reduced.

I think Mercedes does not take from the high end luxury profits to trickle it down to SMART although I do not see why they couldn't. What is $5000 tacked on to a $80,000 plus vehicle? I suspect there is also some incentive for them to make and develop such cars which might offset some of this loss. No company, least of all a German company is going to take a $5000 hit on each car sold at say 15,000 units a month since Mercedes took over financing in 1998.

Here's a bit to inform readers of PBH who don't have a clue about SMART cars.

History

The smart fortwo is manufactured at Smartville, a purpose-built factory complex in Hambach, France, established in 1994 as a joint-venture of Daimler-Benz and the Swiss watch manufacturer Swatch.

The project was originally supported by Swatch, and was nicknamed the "Swatchmobile". The car was supposed to use innovative features (such as a hybrid engine) and to be an affordable car for young people. Its purpose was to "transport two people and a case of beer" (later replaced by a case of water).

Being inexperienced in automobiles, Swatch CEO Nicolas Hayek sought an established car maker to produce his Swatch car, and found a partner in Volkswagen. Plans never reached a final stage so Swatch teamed up with Daimler-Benz. The car proved to be far from expectations: technology was conventional and it was more expensive than most small 4-seater cars sold in Europe. The joint venture experienced heavy losses and Swatch pulled out.

In 2005, DaimlerChrysler decided against purchasing a 50% share in the NedCar plant used to manufacture the forfour. DC also halted development on the formore and decided to discontinue production of the smart Roadster.

The fortwo is the original smart model that was launched in 1998 as City Coupe. The name fortwo was introduced when smart began to produce new models. The car is intended primarily for urban use, is one of the lightest cars in the European market with a weight of 730 kg due to its reinforced steel shell with plastic body panels and by normal standards is considered particularly fuel efficient, averaging 4.7 l/100 km (50 mpg) for the gasoline model and 3.4 l/100 km (69 mpg) for the Diesel. The smart fortwo's length of only 2.500 mm means that two smarts can share a parking bay. The fortwo is available with a convertible version (originally City Cabrio, now fortwo Cabrio), introduced in 2000, and was restyled in 2002. Curiously, the smart fortwo has its engine positioned at the rear of the vehicle.

The engine ranges is composed of only turbocharged three cylinder motors. Originally, the base petrol engine had 600 cc, but displacement was increased to 700 cc along with the restyling. It's available in 37 kW (50 PS) or 45 kW (61 PS) variants. The turbodiesel engine has 800 cc displacement with 30 kW (41 PS). All smart fortwo versions have a choice of two different six-speed sequential gearboxes. The car does not have a clutch pedal and uses an electronic torque converter like an automatic, but the gearbox has to be operated manually to change gears.

The car is popular in Europe and Japan. There is a Japan-only variant called the smart K which is the only non-Japanese car that fulfills the regulations for Keicars. On 26 June 2002, smart fortwo was exhibited at the new Museum of Modern Art in Queens, New York for the first time. It is the only model still in production today. Although one of the cars is an exhibit at the (MoMA), the car is not available in the USA. The turbodiesel variant was introduced in Canada as a 2005 model in September 2004 and as of June 2005 Vancouver customers had a six month wait for delivery. These have proven popular in major Canadian cities as light commercial vehicles carrying extensive graphics promoting the owner's business.

Electric vehicle manufacturer Zap plans to import smart fortwos from a German dealer and modify them for sale in the United States in 2005.

In September, 2005, smart President Ulrich Walker announced that a decision on entry of the smart into the US market would be made before the end of 2005.

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Albatross says on Nov 14, 2005, 06:51:

NYC vs Bogota... not even close. While I understand Rubiazos dissappointment with certain aspects of modern-day NYC, it's a mistake to write-off the city. Every major city cycles through periods of ascent and decline. New York was on the rise from the early 1900's through the 20's but declined in the 30's. It rose in the 40's -50's and then fell in the 60's -70's. It rose again in the 80's - 90's only to fall victim to the trade center bombings of 2001.
Paris, London, Berlin ect. have all gone through similar cycles.

Bogota, however, has never been (and will never be) in the same league as New York... not even close.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Rubiazo says on Nov 14, 2005, 08:12:

60s-70s woulda been just FINE for me here. And in the early 1900s it was the suck here too, they were building lots of buildings here but artistically there was NOTHING going on in NYC until the Harlem Renaissance. We are at the point where it is getting as bad as it has been in almost 100 years here.

10 years ago we used to have a huge community of London expats. We actually had many of London's top musicians coming here, now the trend is reversed and many top NYC musicians are residing in London.

To me, I see NYC as steadily declining from may 1960 or so until the present day, because I really don't give a damn how clean the streets are or whether there are gangs or drugs or rats or bums or any of that shit. It may have gone down and back up twice in those regards but as far as music goes it has been a steady road downhill. The 30s were actually the best time for musicians and actors. That was the golden age of Broadway!

Just what is it that is so great about modern day NYC in your guys opinion? I mean you can make lots of money here (although that part is stagnating these days too), but what else does the city have to offer?

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caslug says on Nov 14, 2005, 08:55:

i've talked w many col.. and they have no problem describing their country as 3rd world or developing. They know that it's not a bad name, heck ALL of latin america, most of asia(with exception japan/s. korea/singapore), all of africa/middle east, not to mention the whole of eastern europe is in the same boat. So seems like 80% of the world fits this category.
so why take offense?

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Albatross says on Nov 14, 2005, 09:25:

R. I don't know what happened in May of 1960 that precipitated it's demise in your opinion, but the music scene in NYC was awesome throughout the 60's into the 70's. Dylan, The Velvet Underground & The Ramones, for example, all spent alot of time here, not to mention the dozens of clubs scattered around the city - especially the Filmore East (The Allman Bros, Hendrix and Humble Pie all recorded albums there).

More recently, some of the best goth, house, trans, and even latin (Spanish Harlem Orchestra) can be heard in the city just about any night. And whether you like it or not, rap/hip-hop, (arguably the greatest revolution in music/culture since rock & roll) came out of New York in the mid 80's (Run DMC, et al).
And by the way, the New York Philharmonic is still one of the finest orchestras in the world.

And that's just music, there's also world-class art, architecture, film, TV, sculpture, commerce, fashion, finance, food and the New York Yankees.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Rubiazo says on Nov 14, 2005, 09:41:

HAHAH the Yankees I'll start watching the Yankees again when Steinbrenner fucking dies, thank you!

I certainly am a hip hop fan, but to me that was largely a 70s and 80s thing. I can't stomach any of the shit on the radio. I actually like regueton, but not the crap they play on the radio either. The good stuff is WAY underground unfortunately.

And sorry, NY Philharmonic doesn't hold a candle to Budapest, Prague, Moscow, Warsaw etc. All the American and West European orchestras could never compete with the Eastern European ones. And the Met can't touch La Scala either IMO!

Of course the Fillmore East was awesome! CB's is actually still going (for now) but not as awesome as it was obviously. But that's my point, all this great NY shit you brought up is all part of history now. It says nothing about today. That is exactly what I ask myself daily, where the hell are the Ramones of today? Where are the Kool DJ Hercs and Grandmaster Flashes of today? In short, wtf happened?

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Rubiazo says on Nov 14, 2005, 09:50:

But on another note What of all these things is missing in Bogota compared to NYC? Of all the things you mentioned, obviously Bogota gets trumped in the finance department, but beyond that Bogota has museums to compete with NYC, art galleries, it CERTAINLY has nice architecture on a level with NYC (lets face it, most buildings in both places are ugly and sucky, especially anything built postwar).
As far as film and TV both of them could never compare to LA, but PLENTY of stuff comes out of Bogota. But I had no problem finding great live music AND getting gigs in Bogota. As a matter of fact, it was a lot easier there than here, despite people's initial skepticism.

Granted, NYC has way more recording studios, but NYC has perennially been lacking decent live tracking rooms. LA and London once again have always been superior in this regard. Right now big recording studios are going bankrupt at record rates in all four cities and everywhere else in the world however :(

As far as fashion, I would argue that people are better dressed in Bogota than they are here. They also seem to dress better in Montreal IMO. And as for food, I would say NYC wins on variety, but Bogota wins on quality. It's just impossible to get really good fruits veggies and meats here. The exception to that is seafood. Bogota seafood sucks because it all has to be throroughly frozen.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Nov 14, 2005, 12:34:

Arrested development is right, pep. That's the term Eduardo Galeano used, I think, in his book "The Open Veins of Latin America". He also explained (partially, at least) why the economical development of Spanish America has been so much slower than the Anglo/French counterpart in the north. To try to explain it you'd have to research the development of the economies and political institutions all the way from the discovery and conquista.

Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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pepster says on Nov 14, 2005, 12:41:

Thanks Desi I think I know this book...at least some of it when it was quoted in an essay.

I'm sure Latin America trumps in a lot of areas according to taste, but to Rubizao's point, he is seeing things, in my opinion, through a very narrow point of view. If you view the whole enchalada...Latin America has grown at a snail's crawl considering their vast natural resources and geographical position.

Colombia should be a monster by now, coal, oil, emeralds, flowers, coffee...I mean Colombia is a fertile and rich country. Take away the legacy of the spaniards left behind and bring in a more anglo type of migration and you get a more Canadian, American type nation.

All you have to see is some parts of Africa where the Portuguese dominated as opposed to where the Dutch/English did. Compare Angola to South Africa. You'll understand my point.


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juanalejo says on Nov 14, 2005, 13:16:

Industry was the key to the success of the rich nations of today. It has nothing to do with natural resources. If not look at Belgium or Holland. The natural resources have been found and used by the rich nations when ever needed and at the price they needed.

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pepster says on Nov 14, 2005, 13:20:

Of course resources... America became an industrial power because of it's own resources. Germany had to conquer it's neighbors to grow it's military machine.

Colombia could have easily exploited it's own natural wealth. Why do you think Italy, Germany, and France's economy is going down the tank.

Rome is over, France is no longer a world power and Germany is getting itself into more trouble. Those economies are shrinking if not growing at a very slow rate. They can have all the "industry" they like but they have to import everything else.

Do you know which country owns the most property and wealth in North America...the British you say nope. The Japanese wrong...the Saudis wrong again. It's the Dutch. They've had their hand in investing in America for years...and have been handsomely rewarded.



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pepster says on Nov 14, 2005, 13:22:

please delete The Pepster

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vladimiro says on Nov 14, 2005, 13:24:

RE: Fundamentalist Republic of America "You're right, Rubiazo. The Fundamentalist Republic of America and the Islamic republics are not altogether different. Good thing I get along with the local mullahs."

Actually, Americans might be more religious than those living in the Islamic Republic:

There are more churches per capita in the US than mosques in the Islamic Republic of Iran. There is no politician in Iran's parliament who can be considered more of a religious fundamentalist than, for instance, Sen. Rick Santorum or Attorney General John Ashcroft. Few if any countries could beat the United States when it comes to using religious rhetoric in political arguments and Iran's President has never once claimed that God picked him to be president of Iran, as America's George Bush so often has.

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pepster says on Nov 14, 2005, 13:33:

Vladimiro You're sort of right...we have this huge right wing problem.

In general, we'll go back to being a more secular nation soon...we have to...mix religion with commonsense...you get...nonsense.


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El Jefe says on Nov 14, 2005, 13:38:

Vladimiro Apparently, you are not terribly familiar with who actually runs Iran, or the militantly religious nature of that nation's laws, or of the jackbooted thugs from the Iranian Ministry of Culture and Islamic Guidance that go about in the street beating/arresting boys for holding a girls' hands, or wearing jeans, or for not being deferential enough to so-called Islamic values.

Iran is led by the Supreme Leader (a religious man), who is chosen by the Panel of Experts (all religious men). Neither the Supreme Leader nor the Panel of Experts are popularly elected. By the way, you also seem to be unaware of the rather fundamentalist President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who recently, among other things, announced that the State of Israel and all Jews should be destroyed.

You will be hard pressed to find any American politician urging that the destruction of a race should be state policy. Your suggestion that the US government is more fundamentalist than Iran has little basis. Yes, Americans have churches, but that's because most Americans believe in God. Simply believing in God does not a fundamentalist make.

PBH should just be renamed to "Anti-American clap-trap that has nothing to do with Colombia" Site.

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Lucia Rojas says on Nov 14, 2005, 13:58:

jjeee jejeej all you guys start getting angry when somebody bad mouthes the U.S. Its funny to read... and then you don't understand when we get angry on the way you talk about Colombia or the meat market you think it is....( coming to pick women like we were on counters just waiting for the fat, old gringo to save us)....
dont patronize us when we get angry guys...you are exactly the same. You're so annoyingly patronizing it drives us nuts.

By the way, I wouldn`t want an Amrican canadian type nation. No way.... we have problems, but that is not the soluiton...NO WAY. Quality of life there sucks!!!!!!!!!!!

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El Jefe says on Nov 14, 2005, 14:05:

Lucia I challenge you to find a post where I have personally talked trash about Colombia, or any nation, race or creed.

Many on this site have an amazing ability to generalize, and to generalize about things they know nothing about, and then pretend that because it is in black and white on their little computer screen, that it is somehow then transformed into "truth."

I'm not angry with Vladimiro and others that trash the US. Anyone can do that, I am simply pointing out that they do not know anything about Iran, or apparently, the United States, either.

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pepster says on Nov 14, 2005, 14:09:

El Jefe Yup, basically the most common posts are becoming "America the imperialists" and "how if you leave Colombia stay away from America." Getting quite old.


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cdunn77 says on Nov 14, 2005, 14:14:

Hey Lucia, whaddya mean quality of life there sux? I happen to LOVE Canada and am extremely looking forward to finally heading back there to see my friends and family again after 3 long years. Canada's a great country! :-)

I totally agree with you though about the fat slob gringos. Contrary to what these fatties think, this isn't a meat market and anyone who thinks different should be skinned, hung up by their balls in a shop window and sold for the few pesos that they are worthy of!

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Lucia Rojas says on Nov 14, 2005, 14:23:

Maybe not you but it certainly happens all the time around here... ( Colombiche and Adrimm left because of it)but if had to be specific instead of general all the time it would take forever. I won't even take the time to see if you have bad mouthed anything. I trust what you say.... Me, on the other hand, I say what I think and sometimes it is bad: about colombia or the US or any other country I feel like talking about......so there. And I try to be tolerant, but it doesnt always work...`

Plus I wasn't directing my post to you directly..it was just an observation of the dynamics. We all get defensive when our countries are attacked.....And they werent speaking specifically about Iran... but about the muslim world. And americans are equally fundamental, hence the strenght of the conflict and the dislike and fear that is felt in America for the muslim world. ( and yes this is a generalization, we all know not everybody is like that)

chao:):):)

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Nov 14, 2005, 14:28:

Stay on topic, please. Colombia or Latin America topics that affect Colombia are fine. Comparing or contrasting something about Colombia with another country or region or culture is fine, within reason.



If you want to chat, argue or pontificate about country X, Y, or Z and it has nothing to do with Colombia, this is not the place.

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El Jefe says on Nov 14, 2005, 14:30:

Tinto My point exactly.

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Lucia Rojas says on Nov 14, 2005, 14:32:

Cdunn I bet it is I bet it is. I told you I would love to visit someday.... generalizatons..as the guy said, always suck.........

wow tinto, you're becoming a cop.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 15, 2005, 00:46:

Tinto is right though My original point is simply this: I don't think it is fair to label Colombia as a 'developing' nation. In some ways it is far behind, in others, many richer nations have to catch up to it! In some ways it is messed up in EXACTLY the same way the USA is messed up.

I really wish I had a nickel for every time somebody had to come on here and bitch about something that happens in Colombia that also happens in their own backyards!! Do any of you really actually think that there is no child prostitution anywhere else in the world? Do you think that there is a single country where there are no homeless people, or where racism or homophobia doesn't exist?

I don't think the fact that there are more cars than people in the US, for example, is a positive thing. I see it as a big looming liability for the entire country, and the sad thing is we have nothing to fall back on. If all the sources of fossil fuels were to dry up in the next few years, Brazil would barely slow down at all! Colombia would have hard times but would pull through because they waste a lot less energy getting from A to B than Americans do. Americans and Canadians would be UP SHITS CREEK!

I wish somebody could tell me what exactly is missing from Bogota to make it a great city like NYC or London or Paris or Tokyo. As a matter of fact I think I need to start another thread on it.

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pepster says on Nov 15, 2005, 22:49:

With all due respect Rubi My own grandfather, an arch Colombian defender still calls Colombia "sub-desarollado".

I'm just saying that it's something Colombians proper describe their country when excusing some of their shortfalls.

But I get your point.

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caslug says on Nov 16, 2005, 05:50:

i remember back in college.. in econ classes we had a definition of 1st/2nd/3rd world countries. essentially it was based on the wealth distribuation, percentage of population in poverty, middle class, upperclass, and rich. And so other factors like ease of movement between classes(esp going fr poor to rich).

A 3rd world country had something like 50-60% poverty, small middle class 20-30%, smaller uppermiddle class 10-20%, and 5-10% filthy rich that control the country. With very little movement between the classes due to inherent friction, corruption, connection, and lack of education and finacial capital. Of course in COL case, they also have problem with security, the country as a whole is not secure to ensure that people and goods can FREELY flow from one city to another.

COL would fall into this catagory(but so does most of the latin america, asia, africa, and eastern europe).

example, loans in COL are at 18-20% interest, loans in US are at 5-8%, low interest loans AND ease of access to loans are one primary factor to drive ANY economy. Without that infusion of capital business will have a difficult time expanding.

So say what you want about US and how it's going down hill, but of a population of 300 million, 150 million are NOT living in poverty(50%) and we can get credit card, loans, and access to stock market very easily.

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Lionheart says on Nov 16, 2005, 06:34:

my school memories we had this definition of 1st/2nd/3rd world countries:

1st = [capitalist] free western world
2nd = communist controled world
3rd = rest of the world

I am not saying that this is the correct definition, there might not be one single definition at all. I was never impressed with this definition. Are all 3rd world countries equal? I wouldn't think so.

I recall dimly this segregation was made by the World Trade Bank at one of their conferences way back in the cold war aera. Now that the communist world isn't in existance anymore the whole split has become moot.

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Sr Tertius says on Nov 16, 2005, 07:03:

Recycled topic http://www.poorbuthappy.com/colombia/node/9560

"El que a hierro mata..."

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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pepster says on Nov 16, 2005, 10:14:

Well it seems... Well it seems some more folks have something to say about it.

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Sr Tertius says on Nov 16, 2005, 11:52:

"more folks have something to say about it." Obviously. But the multiplication of threads rarely yields a multiplication of knowledge. More like a multiplication of monologues, and the constant asking of answered questions.

"El que a hierro mata..."

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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