Deportation - A True Story - does the penalty fit the crime

Sam Salmon says on Oct 3, 2004, 09:26:

Try posting this on the Talk Politics Branch of the Lonely Planet Thorn Tree-you'll get all kinds of yanqui bashers who drink this shit up.
Myself I say TDB-if you want to live in that place live by the rules or take a hike.
Also-there is no way in hell the Canadian Govt will give those people political asylum-they are crazy even to ask-they'll get laughed out of the country.
We try to give asylum to genuine refugees who face persecution in their home countries not rich yanqui lawbreakers.

' a la orden!'

' a la orden!'

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pointofview says on Oct 3, 2004, 10:31:

WOW - SAM Dear Sam:

That's a response that I didn't expect !!!!

This young couple should have (but didn't) know the rules governing the K-1 Visa except the 90 day limitation and they should have (but didn't) exited the USA to get married.

Maybe you were born knowing all the laws, rules and regulations governing immigration but the rest of us weren't. There is not a day that goes by that I don't learn something new that I didn't know the day before and I fully expect to keep gaining knowledge until the day I die. Yes, all of us make mistakes including you for which we pay the price but in this case the price to pay so greatly exceeds the crime (if you can call it that) that it is not rationale.

The greater question (to me) becomes whether the deportation for this young woman for 10 years is a suitable penalty for her offense. If this penalty is not persecution then what the hell is it.

By your heartless response, you communicate that you are just part of the problem and not the solution. I am at a loss to understand your jump to the allegation that this husband, wife and 15 month son are "rich yanqui lawbreakers".

Perhaps you might suggest how they can find a "new home country" now that the USA is expelling them !!!

What are their options except seeking political asylum in another country ? The only options I see is returning to Colombia the country of birth for the wife or acquiring citizenship and/or residency in another country.

Perhaps you can offer a suggestion other then "TAKE A HIKE".


'a la orden!' - NOT

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oldbongo says on Oct 3, 2004, 11:08:

the oldgringo suggests.. that if it's not too late,
and if it hasn't been already tried,
nothing works like groundswell supoort from the local community,
who goes public,petitions,generates sufficient momentum in the press,
that local politicians,congressmen, get the message and lobby the feds
to grant a humanitatian exception to the law, which does not accept
ignorance of the law, as a valid excuse.
of course the answer to the original question is no, the punishment does not fit the crime,.. however, the difficulty comes in applying
the well-intentioned law to an exceptional case because the law has
a deficiency in providing for discretion.
it is the same problem in the criminal justice system.

and samfish, do you have any firsthand experience with canadian
immigration processes in bogota?

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pointofview says on Oct 3, 2004, 11:11:

Tinto Yes the wife is being prosecuted but the penalty being imposed for the offense amounts to persecution. Many months after filing the change of status they were contacted by INS who pointed out the problem and they have exhausted their remedies in trying to correct their intial mistake.

Political asylum is not laughable for those people that are seeking it. This family does not want to return to Colombia and her husband has never even been to Colombia. Returning to Colombia might work as it may allow her family to obtain visa(s) with some form of resident status with a country (other than the USA) where her husband has a job opportunity available.

There is a solution to this situation but I am at a loss to know quite how to help them. I have tried to assist them politically in California but with no good results. The USA senators and congressmen are being swampted with these kind of cases since Homeland Security took over immigration.

None of this would have happened if they would have found an immigration attorney and invested $200 in legal advice before getting married.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Oct 3, 2004, 12:02:

My sympathies to your friends, POV. I've seen some really pretty intelligent people get caught in fucked-up immigration nightmares like this because they were unclear (and perhaps less than dilligent) about the laws. Personally, I feel much the same way about immigration laws as I do about tax law: You shouldn't have to be an expert to understand the laws that apply to you. Unfortunately, immigration law has become extremely convoluted and a lot of people are getting hurt who don't really "deserve" it.

If you have any political influence that's the best way to help these folks. Can you tell us where in California they are?

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pointofview says on Oct 3, 2004, 12:14:

Mr. Hollywood These people live in San Diego, California. This situation was introduced to me over a year ago by a mutual friend in Medellin. At first it seemed like it would be solveable simply requiring her to exit the country starting a K-3 process through normal channels for her to re-entry the USA but their attorney was unable to negotiate a settlement along those lines.

I aimed them at their US Senators and Congressman from their district but efforts by them to gain their assistance never brought any results. All that's left is the possibility of some last minute change of position by immigration reducing the exit time to something more reasonable. The only other alternative never pursued was taking the story public in the media but I have the feeling that this one story is just the tip of the iceberg (currently).

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oldbongo says on Oct 3, 2004, 12:39:

please take the time.. POV...
to read then view this.

good luck..

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/runforyourlife/destination_printer.html

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pointofview says on Oct 3, 2004, 13:33:

OLD GRINGO - THANKS I read the article and I found that my tear glands that I thought had dried up with age are alive and working. These stories will bring tears to your eyes, increased heart beat and emotion to your voice.

I guess that if I was a judge hearing these immigration cases I would be fired in short order for ruling in favor for the immigrants almost every time.

Who wouldn't want to help another human being trying despirately to help themselves and their families. They are not asking for a hand out but rather just a helping hand more commonly known as opportunity. Sometimes just words of encouragement or understanding and not money are the nourshment that's needed.

This link is interesting: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/refugees/

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Sam Salmon says on Oct 3, 2004, 14:05:

pointofview-you tell us that pointofview-you tell us that the husband is an engineer-a professional occupation that pays very well indeed-he hasn't hitchhiked from Honduras has he?
Did you take the time to read the CBC link given above?
Those are people who are suffering-I know I've worked with refugees here in the past.
Particularly during the worst years of the El Salvadorean civil war we saw all kinds of shell shocked people coming to Vancouver where I live-the hills around Nelson BC abound with Mayans who were forced out of Guatemala-I could go on and on.
Were this to happen somehow under Canadian law we'd throw the woman out the husband/kid would stay and life would go on-my take is that they had the kid hoping a child would somehow cement their claim to the USA.
If they do end up leaving the USA their lives won't end-the planet abounds with great safe places to live and professional engineers live very well indeed.
Just don't get the idea that Canadians or their Govt will have any sympathy whatsoever for the people in this situation-it ain't gonna happen.

' a la orden!'

' a la orden!'

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pointofview says on Oct 3, 2004, 14:24:

Sam - "a la orden!" - NOT Quote:

"I also think you are being somewhat disingenuous when you say the husband is being deported-can a US citizen be deported from his own country for breaking Immigration law?"

Did you read my first post ? I think I made this point quite clear !!

"4 years have passed and this happily married couple now has a 15 month old son (american citizen). Because they married in the USA in violation of the K-1 restrictions the family (as they are a unit) is being deported from the USA. Sure technically the son and husband are USA citizens and they can legally stay but this young woman may be deported without the ability to return to the USA for 10 years."

Well, I really don't beleive that you are the Prime Minister of Canada or any one of its elected political policy makers but rather you are just stating your opinion regarding Canada's policies. Yes, I read the stories with much interest and no I made no comment about the engineers earnings.

Finally, they made some mistakes and in hindsight if they discovered the problem soon enough the marriage could have been annulled if it violated the provisions of her K-1 visa. She could have then exited the country and showed "good faith" maybe (big maybe) allowing her to re-enter the USA with a new K-1 without being barred (assuming she had a good attorney to negoiate all this).

Her husband is not going to abandon his wife and son because she is being deported rather he is preparing to leave with her and his son whereever that journey takes him. No, her husband hasn't hitchhiked from Honduras to Canada but I am sure that he would if it would help his wife and son be able to stay in their home in California.

I guess by your comments you wouldn't make that trip - would you ?

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greg says on Oct 3, 2004, 15:13:

deportation Its the asshole boyfriend who abandonded her that should be deported. I agree with posts by oldgringo and Mr. Hollywood. 10 years is ridiculous. You are right. We are losing our humanity.

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oldbongo says on Oct 3, 2004, 15:18:

from one vancouverite.. to another..

sam man, it's just not nice to be such a hardass today,
even if you are right on all counts,...tranqilisete.

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Sam Salmon says on Oct 3, 2004, 16:39:

As regards the yanqui case a person would think that someone with professional qualifications would have hired the best immigration lawyer he could afford-a very good one indeed-to pursue his case over the years.He did have 4 years after all.

Hardass?
Have a look at this link-I'll post the story as well to see how Canada treats people who break immigration law.
I normally don't read that paper but happened to see it when I cycled by the box a few minutes ago.
Note that my purpose in posting this is to show that Canada is no haven for overstayers, cheaters or bogus refugees.
I have no particular sympathy for lawbreakers in other jurisdictions either true-the problems we've had in this country from all of the above-and continue to have-you wouldn't believe.
To anyone reading this post Please Read What's Below Carefully-It Happens Every Day in Canada!

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/theprovince/news/story.html?id=a0af72b8-bbba-4418-8ef7-d4f4792f95ab

'The Kids Can't Function Without Their Mother'
Andy Ivens The Province Sunday, October 03, 2004

Two days from now, Bernard Confiss will lose his wife. His kids will lose their mother. And he doesn't know what to do.

Or, more precisely, what else to do -- since Confiss has already spent months providing documents and rallying support to fight the deportation that will send his wife, Seydi Calvo Hidalgo, back to her native Costa Rica.

Ottawa says she has run out of extensions on the visitor's visa that brought her to Canada after their marriage in Costa Rica in 2002. Hidalgo has been arrested and is being held until her deportation, slated for either tomorrow or Tuesday.

The couple met in Vancouver six years ago. He was recently divorced, she was in Canada and attempting to stay.

The pair have a four-year-old daughter, Rachel, and a two-year-old son, Isaiah, both Canadians.

"This is devastating," Confiss said yesterday. "She has never been away from our children since they were born.

"They want to know where [she] is. I can't function without my wife. The kids can't function without their mother."

The couple were on their way to a movie Friday when police intercepted them as they strolled in southeast Vancouver.

Confiss, who runs his own landscaping business, says his bank accounts are empty. Hiring a lawyer to seek a stay of the order would be expensive, and Confiss says he has been told it's highly unlikely they would succeed.

Confiss says he's built his business to the point where he now earns about $5,000 a month -- but the profits go to pay off bills he ran up launching the firm.

Which, he says, leaves him with no option other than to sell all of his belongings as fast as he can, move with his children to Costa Rica if the order isn't overturned -- and try again from there.

"My kids are Canadian. I was born here," fumes the 37-year-old. "They let in all kinds of terrorists and Nazis. Why would they do this?"

Immigration spokesmen and lawyers involved in the case could not be reached for comment.

Confiss is now searching for another landscaper to assume the contracts he has committed to for the next six weeks. If he doesn't find one, he says he may simply walk away from his company.

Confiss lays his problems at the feet of a Canadian immigration official who he says told him two years ago, when the pair married, that he should use humanitarian and compassionate grounds rather than follow the traditional sponsorship route to keep his wife in Canada.

For the next 14 months, Confiss says the couple dealt with Costa Rican bureaucrats to get birth certificates, their marriage certificate, criminal background checks and other documents in order.

Hidalgo continued to have her visa extended as needed.

In May, Confiss says he was suddenly told instead that he was in "default" and had to sponsor his wife to have her stay.

The "default" came from the fact his first wife, whom he had sponsored from Costa Rica years before he met Hidalgo, had collected welfare in Canada after their divorce, and he needed to clear her $19,000 debt before sponsoring Hidalgo.

He doesn't have $19,000, he says.

The pair appealed. Friends, social workers and four rabbis wrote him letters of support, but the deportation order was issued.

aivens at png.canwest.com

' a la orden!'

' a la orden!'

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caslug says on Oct 3, 2004, 16:59:

All these stories suck! Gov't Bureaucrat(of any country) are not exactly known for their humanity. POV, i'm quite suprise that the Congressman's office did not at least help out. Usually their staff will make an effort to look into it and assist if possible. I known so many foreigners(Canadians & Europeans) that are staying in the states pass their visa for years. Nothing is every done about it, INS is not even trying to track them down. They just CAN'T go back to their country if they want to return to the US. So they stay here indefinite, that's probably what the Colombian wife should do while she navigates thru this legal mess.

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oldbongo says on Oct 3, 2004, 17:15:

bernard confiss.. is culpable,...totally..
he knew he was responsible for the first wife.
his current wife is a victim of his dishonesty.
if they were married in costa rica, she shouldn't
have entered on a tourist visa, thats also illegal,
and grounds for deportation.
the point is here, for POV, that this is another example
of actively seeking publicity,and support.
even in this case,..with less merit than yours,due to the
mans dishonesty,...there is a slim chance that the sensational nature
of the story will prompt a miracle that you may read about soon.
stay tuned.

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Patrick says on Oct 3, 2004, 17:30:

Hay Sam Lighten up! The case you quote is totally different than the one in this thread. There are over 6 million illegal aliens in the good old U.S.A. that the A** Holes in D.C. will not kick out and most of them are getting welfare. It’s all about votes, not what makes sense. This young lady committed a technical error and should not be treated like a Terrorist or some common criminal. She should be sent home and allowed to get her papers in order, receive her visa and then be allowed to return to her family. That is what makes sense. If you want to run your big mouth about this, why don’t you run it at the scum that slips across the border in the middle of the night with no intention of getting papers their the ones that are screwing up both our countries. There was a time when our governments were there to help their citizens. That time has long passed; we now live in countries that are “Of the government, By the government and For the government�. The idea that “We the People� are what’s important has disappeared

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Sam Salmon says on Oct 3, 2004, 18:20:

"If you want to run your big "If you want to run your big mouth about this, why don’t you run it at the scum that slips across the border in the middle of the night with no intention of getting papers their the ones that are screwing up both our countries"
You need to take a seriously deep breath!
The security of US borders is your problem not Canada's OK?
FYI-the people who cause the probs here come by Airplane-tear up their documents aboard and flush them-then declare refugee status.
Flaunting abysmal ignorance of world affairs is common with yanquis we know but try to to drool on the keyboard as you do so Patrick!

' a la orden!'

' a la orden!'

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utopiacowboy says on Oct 3, 2004, 19:03:

It is hard not to be sympathetic to people like this and I certainly wish them the best. However when a person receives a K-1 visa, the people at the consulate explain - in Spanish if necessary - the requirements of the visa. You have to marry your fiance within 90 days - it is made very clear. When she found out what a dirtball her fiance was and met her now husband, she should have known that she could not marry him and stay. So while I am sympathetic to their plight, they really have themselves to blame for what is happening now. The USCIS could not care less about keeping families together.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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vladimiro says on Oct 3, 2004, 21:48:

Deportation The lady could apply for political assylum in the US. She would have to lie and claim to be a member of a group that gets killed a lot in Colombia ( human rights, union, recieved threats from para/farc, etc. ). Its a long shot, but would atleast delay the process giving her time to figure out the next step.

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larryste says on Oct 4, 2004, 01:20:

Deportation It seems to me that there were a lot of poor choices in this chain of events.

1)The woman is this story should have gotten more information from the consulate about the visa.

2)You would think that in San Diego, California somebody in the family, friends, or co-workers of the couple would have some immigration visa experence. They could have told them that it getting married without the right visa was a bad idea.

3)I can not beleve that a engineer, a professional person would not have looked for some information about a visa. It does not take to much searching on the internet find the information and the horror stories of the people who were screwed over by the government. Then there is the libary I would think that San Diego would have 30 books about the k1 visa.

4)having a child before resolving the visa problem is criminal

It is really hard to say what the real story. We are just seeing the end results. Most people when they screw up put a good spin on it. They are not going to say that knew what they were doing was wrong snd was tring to get away with it.

I feel sorry about them but I really feel sorry about the child. I wish them the best of luck.

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CarlGoingtoPeriera says on Oct 4, 2004, 05:18:

Sad Sam sad sam Sad Sam keeps talking about keeping borders intact and the rest of that ignorant persons speech line. You are able to travel on your american passport and live well just about anywhere in the world and yet you are so venemous about other people trying so settle in "your country". when god made earth he certainly did'nt make borders. Borders are man made and are still causing problems around the world. Try thinking outside your little box for once. I hope that couple get the to stay albeit quite frankly I dont know why they would want to stay in a country that has people like you. However thank god her husband is american - it is people like him that make america great and people like you that undo the good that people like him do. America is America because of its tolerance and intelligent use of foriegners who have settled there - colombian,italian, cubans,English, German. so by your standard you are also a foriener. Live and let live man!!Stop being selfish and child like. God bless the world and indeed from my heart god bless you too Sam!!!! Cheers!!

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Sam Salmon says on Oct 4, 2004, 17:17:

"Sad Sam keeps talking about "Sad Sam keeps talking about keeping borders intact and the rest of that ignorant persons speech line. You are able to travel on your american passport and live well just about anywhere in the world and yet you are so venemous about other people trying so settle in "your country".
Are you another ignorant yanqui?
If you took the time to read my posts-you do read English well enough-you'd see that I'm a CANADIAN!!!
LMAO!!!
Whatever you are you are draped in arrogance and steeped in ignorance-sad, sad, sad.
Reading my post you'd see that I have in fact worked with legitimate refugees here in Vancouver in the mid 80's .
FYI I continue to support community causes (including ones raising money for Colombian internal refugees) through volunteer work and donations of cold hard cash.
You may apologise for slandering me either here in public or by emailing me ssalmon at canada.com






' a la orden!'

CarlGoingtoPeriera says on Oct 5, 2004, 00:41:

Why are you so upset sam? I might be ignorant at times but believe me I try hard to be when it counts. So I apologise. However I am happy I got a reaction out of you. If you do wotk with refugees then we are obviously on the same side. Unfortunately there are people in the world who would sieze on your comment... "Myself I say TDB-if you want to live in that place live by the rules or take a hike" to be prejudiced - as a refugee and minority myself I hear this type statment every so often when some crazy racist is trying to keep me in my place. As a refugee I have a voice and I sure am going to use it. If I offended you then sorry.
Cheers

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CasaSol says on Oct 5, 2004, 10:45:

USA worth it? For all the time and money you will spend to stay in the U.S., is it really worth it? There are plenty of democratic nations in the world with many opportunities for growth. If you are an entrepreneur or have good skills you should find plenty of places that will welcome you. The truth of the matter is, the U.S. is a decaying nation with an ageing population. Its economy will implode sooner or later since there is no way it can keep paying its debts and take care of its entitlement programs (social security,etc.). My advise is, forget about the U.S.A. and take your dreams where they can be realized in the new century. Suerte!

Ricolombia.com | The Guide to Colombian Culture, Crafts & Travel

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caslug says on Oct 5, 2004, 17:23:

Interestig point Rico.. "forget about the U.S.A. and take your dreams where they can be realized"

So what country do you recommend to to follow your dream to? BTW, I partly agree with you, but I still think the US is the best country to start a business. Every devloped country in the world right now is in the same or worse economic situation as the US. AND I would dare say, for entrepreneur, the US is the most small business friendly country in the world.

Getting legal resident in ANY country is a time consume process, one mistep can cause alot of hassle as we have seen.

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truthfinder says on Oct 31, 2004, 07:49:

Bernard Confiss With regards to Mr.Confiss family dilemma, there is a lot that hasn't been said about the type of person that he is. For one, he is an abusive man with a record of abusing women; i've been told that he was quite abusing towards his first wife and he continues to do so, and a clear example of this is his misleading comments in the newspaper article. To make this more clear to everyone, he claims that he is in default because his first wife had to go on welfare after they were divorced; well, under the immigration act, once a couple is divorced the sponsor ceases to be responsible for the person that he/she has sponsor. What indeed happened in Mr.Confiss case was that he could abuse his wife no more, she was kicked out of her own home with their daughter, so that Mr.Confiss and his new girlfriend, Ms.Calvo could move in...Also, Mr.Confiss claims that lhe is making up to $5000/month on his job, but he fails to mention that he hasn't paid any money to his first wife for child support...As i stated there is a lot that is not being said...It is about time that the real facts make the news, or not as it would not be selling newspapers.
Anyhow, sorry for intrude in your forum but i know these people and i happened to know the truth.
Peace

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pointofview says on Jan 1, 2006, 07:20:

DEPORATION WITH GOOD ENDING The young woman (Luz Marina) who was the subject of this original post over one year ago was forced to leave the USA with her child (a US Citizen) returning to her country of origin Colombia.

She settled in Cartegena and her husband bought an apartment there for her residence. Her husband (a USA citizen) never adandoned his Colombian wife and child and after satisfing numerous requirements imposed by US Immigration she was allowed to re-enter the USA with her child and returned yesterday (December 31, 2005) to California in a legal status re-united with her husband.

Some things in life have a good ending but not many that involve the government(s) of any nation.

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poco says on Jan 1, 2006, 11:36:

So,, let me ask DEPORATION WITH GOOD ENDING

Does this mean you are no longer ashamed to be a U.S. Citizen ?

"Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

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ElPadrino1 says on Jan 1, 2006, 11:48:

If the law was changed for this one person... it would have to be changed for a 1000 others. I am sure this lady KNEW exactly rules she had to abide by when she was issued the Visa-that is explained to her upon issue "You have 90 days to marry the sponsor(only) of this Fianceee Visa. If you do NOT marry this person, you have to return to colombia, what is so cruel about this law? It is not a Carte Blanche type of Visa to marry whoever, whenever. This was her error, not any error of the US goverments'. The US Government is already being Trusting in issuing many Fiancee Visas, knowing a good Percentage of these are indeed for fraudulent reasons. The husband sounds like an educated guy. an Engineer-you mean to tell he didn't research this angle first? C'mon, tell us the whole story! This lady got what she desrved, she broke the law and had to pay. It(paying for your errors) only happens to poor foreigners you say? Not True! Well as an example, I cite what happened to Martha Stewart recently here in the US; a multimillionaire who broke the law, she was found guilty by a jury of peers and went to Prison and served her time. Did she complain? Well not publicly, she did the crime and did the time(in prison).They deported a Peruvian couple recently from LA for the same reason and no exception was made, why some exception for this lady? What are laws for if precedent setting exceptions are made then 1000s of others see this an opening loophole in our laws then millions come and why have any immigration laws at all?

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utopiacowboy says on Jan 1, 2006, 15:16:

Good to see that the husband stuck by his wife and that they are now reunited. All's well that ends well.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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