Denver Public Library favors Colombians over non-Spanish speakers

Lucia Rojas says on Aug 3, 2005, 22:11:

interesting But it's true...you can't just exclude english books from the library... that would be sort of crazy. I'm sure whoever wrote the article is twisting around information. it is obvoius they would get hell from the english speaking americans and loose budget.

But a good spanish section might help the owverwhelmingly huge population of latinos...and maybe get their kids out of the streets and the gangs.

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 4, 2005, 09:07:

The other day I had to take something to a Colombian woman who had been living here for 17 years. Yeah, you guessed it - our entire conversation was in Spanish because she can't speak English. I told my wife, That's going to be you in 17 years if you're not careful.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Neonovo says on Aug 4, 2005, 09:39:

"Cutting edge" and "revolutionary." Seems to me immigrants do not need "incentives" to learn English, as the great majority already feels the urgent need to learn it, as do many other people who never plan to migrate.

Immigrants certainly do not "have" to speak it to do many of the jobs we end-up with, particularly during the early years, and sometimes for ever. Regardless of need or peronsal incentive, there are those who will never learn it because their brains just don't cut it. I know folk who have lived in the US for decades, and were never able to pick it up, and will never ever do so, through no fault of their own.

I agree with the "Cutting edge" and "revolutionary" label given to this move, because it validates people for what they are, not for the language they speak.

The portrayal of this initiative as a detriment against English, or its culture can and should be expected from conservatives who can not conceive of alternatives for themselves, much less for others.

To expect immigrants have to learn English soely because the have "taken" a job is asininely conservative.

Paz
Neonovo

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platano says on Aug 4, 2005, 09:48:

"I told my wife, That's going to be you"... But UTC did you say to your wife: "That's going to be you.." or did you say "En 17 años serás así también, mi amorcito"?

Plátano, el banano verde
Oxigeno Verde ¡Libertad por Ingrid y los demás!

plátano

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 4, 2005, 09:55:

Great I don't agree that people coming to the US should have to learn English any more than people moving to Colombia should have to learn Spanish. Certainly it helps your enjoyment and success in a country to speak the primary language, but as they say, it's a free country. Especially in a state named "Colorado" I think it's weird for people to get bent out of shape with giving Spanish a little official recognition.

Frankly, whenever I'm in latino immigrant communities in the US I'm amazed by how many people DO speak English and speak it quite well.

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Qubo says on Aug 4, 2005, 11:02:

Waste of Tax Payers Money This is the message that shouldn't be given to hispanics in the USA. How can more books in spanish improve someone that should be reading books in english...

My parents are immigrants but learned to conversate in english because people appreciate it and respect you more rather living here 15 plus years and can't ask for a simple address..


This happened to a friend and I a couple of weeks ago...Lady walks up to us blurting in spanish(which we both speak btw)that she was looking for an address without even "attempting" to ask us in english first..My friend blurted the address in portuguese...lady paused for a sec..and replied "Que?" My friend told the lady in spanish that's exactly how people feel when you start speaking spanish...LOL...

Learn english...or get treated like a 3rd class citizens...Why should english speakers accomadate for some lazy immigrant that refuses to learn....BTW, my parents migrated to this country thus I can empathize with the struggle of learning english...But at least try...

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Colombiche says on Aug 4, 2005, 11:20:

Ummm GringoInBog... Okay. So you want to deny the Spanish heritage of the United States, boy we have to make some immediate name changes:

1) The state of "Florida" shall now be named "Flowery".
2) Colorado hall be named "Blush" or "Reddish".
3) Nevada will now be called "Snowy".
4) Las Vegas will be The Vegas.
5) San Antonio shall hereby be called "St. Anthony"
6) San Francisco -- "St. Francis".
7) Los Angeles -- "The Angels"
8) Palo Alto as "the tall Stick"
9) Chula Vista -- Beautiful sight
10) El Paso -- "the Step"
11) San Diego -- St. Doug?
12) Modesto -- The Modest guy
13) Pasadena -- Passageway

From now on you shall drink "strained pineapple" not Pina colada in your backyard (not the the patio), there will be no more cowboys (who hail from the Spanish "Vaquero", no more "Rodeo" for you.. now it will be "walking circles around the cow") and say goodbye to tex mex for ever, now it will only be tex.....

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Aug 4, 2005, 11:21:

A little slice of American history y'all In 1513, Ponce de León was the first Spaniard known to have visited North America (specifically Florida). In 1565, the Spaniards founded St. Augustine, Florida, the oldest continuously occupied European city in the territory of the United States. The first reading grammar text was written in Spanish in Georgia in 1658.

Spanish has been spoken in the country (singularly, in St. Bernard Parish, Louisiana) since 1803, when Louisiana was sold to the United States and Spanish settlers in that region, descendants of Canary Islanders, turned into citizens of a new country.


After the Mexican-American War (1846–48), nearly half of Mexico was lost to the United States, including parts of the modern-day states of Texas, Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, and Wyoming, and the whole of California, Nevada, and Utah. The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (1848) made no explicit reference to language rights. California's first constitution approved an important recognition of Spanish language rights: "All laws, decrees, regulations, and provisions emanating from any of the three supreme powers of this State, which from their nature require publication, shall be published in English and Spanish."

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Aug 4, 2005, 11:27:

.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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rjstuff says on Aug 4, 2005, 11:32:

Oh yall its really not like that! I think the idiots - English only institutions - are blowing this out of proportion. YES! I live in Colorado and in DENVER! The libraries routinely review what books are being checked out and are being requested and annually (or so) adjust more of one kind or the other - so some libraries will get more Spanish books and some will get LESS! I wonder why no one focused on the ones getting less?
Also, I have another problem with people insisting on English only - what happened to my neighbors kids (hispanic kids born and raised in USA) they don't speak Spanish, they don't know their own culture - Oh YES! They know McDonalds and Pizza Hut; and Begging for Candies (Halloween) and begging for presents (Christmas.)
I think it is a shame they do not know their own culture. I wish they did the normal - learn English but do not forget your roots (both language and culture!)

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 4, 2005, 11:54:

You wiseguy, Platano! Of course you're right....

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 4, 2005, 11:58:

I don't know if you've spent much time with Colombian immigrant communities in the US, Hollywood. They seem to show more resistance to learning English than other Latino groups. My wife has several other Colombian friends living in various parts of the US - none of them can speak English! IMHO they're too freaking proud of their "pure" Spanish to stoop to speaking another language. I'd put 'em all on a bus and send back through the Darien Gap. Buena suerte, amigos!

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Colombiche says on Aug 4, 2005, 12:07:

utopia Will mrs UC be on that bus?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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adrimm says on Aug 4, 2005, 12:16:

New Language not like new citizenship (in countries that make you drop your old one).Geez... you'd think from this discussion that once someone picks up a new language they drop the old one completely.

Not so, as anyone who has learned a second language can attest, the first one *does not* vanish. Bilingualism does exist.

I think that people who do not make an effort to learn the principal languages of the community they live in are setting themselves up for huge restrictions and cultural isolation. It's like cutting oneself off from a group of people who can significantly affect your life. Kind of like giving up the chance to vote.

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Colombiche says on Aug 4, 2005, 12:19:

The only colombians I know That did not learn the English language are the ones that immigrated to North America at an older age, with kids and bills to pay and many of them had no professional designation. They had to go pull crazy hours at a factory to support their kids. How would speaking English have changed their lives? Would they have become CEO's?

On the other hand, I immigrated to Canada at the age of 10. I think my spoken and written English is as good as any native's (and sometimes better). I received awards in highschool and college for writing English-language essays. UC, you are making a very sweeping generalization here. Many of the colombian professionals who have immigrated to Canada in the past few years have very good language skills, but some of them are still denied jobs because of their accent or even because of their lack of Canadian experience.

I know a lot of American and Canadian guys in my company, that have moved to the headquarters in Munich and don't even speak a word of German. Yet they live it up in Munich like kings.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Aug 4, 2005, 12:23:

Adrimm I agree that people should not lose their native language because they learn a second one. That is why I laugh when I see those colombians posting that they have forgotten how to speak Spanish after a few years of being in North America.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 4, 2005, 12:31:

My wife knows about 20 Colombians who live in the US. Not one of them can speak English. Hey, I'm old too. I didn't learn Spanish until I was halfway senile. The only reason I learned Spanish is to be able to talk to my wife - I don't need it for anything else in my life. Although it is nifty to be able to understand the cleaning crew at night and the construction workers. They think this white boy can't understand them!

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Colombiche says on Aug 4, 2005, 12:34:

UC... So the only thing Spanish is useful for is to talk to the cleaning crew? You can talk to me in Spanish, but I am not cleaning anyone's crap, I am designing and developing systems that some of the world's biggest banks use to move their money. You make it sound like Latino people ONLY do menial jobs. At least that is not the case for many of us.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 4, 2005, 12:39:

As I keep telling my wife, here people who can ONLY speak Spanish and nothing else, DO menial work. No, the people like my stepkids who are fluent in both languages (and like yourself I might add), the world is and will be their oyster. Since I work in san Antonio, I work with a lot of people who are fluent in both languages. Unfortunately too many people understand Spanish here for us to be able to say anything we want - like "Did you see that guy? Man, what an asshole!" etc. Once in a while but only if I am positive nobody can understand us.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Colombiche says on Aug 4, 2005, 12:49:

Topia... My mom never learned English. I tried really hard to get her to learn but it was pointless. Utterly pointless. She can actually put sentences together and understand a lot of things people say. She can also read an English article and understand 50% of what is written on it... but she refused to go out there and use the language, converse in it. The reason why she did this though, is lack of self confidence. She was very afraid of being made fun of when she mispronounced the words. She was such a princess back home, and here, she had to be mocked because she had a funny accent, or because her grammar was bad. She was terrified, horrified of speaking English. Even today, she will rather have a root canal than have a conversation with an English speaking person. It all boils down to fear and lack of self confidence. They don't want their ego to get bruised, it is too vulnerable. Maybe your wife is covering up her fear by acting indifferent, as though she didn't want to learn the language, meanwhile deep down she just feels safe staying in her cocoon.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 4, 2005, 13:07:

Let's all "conversate" "My parents are immigrants but learned to conversate in english"

Apparently they didn't teach you much English? Conversate?

The article that started this whole thread is simply about the public library system in Colorado choosing to buy more books in Spanish and lend them to their patrons. I think that's a great thing. I'm the world's biggest proponant of bilingualism and of reading. If buying some books in Spanish means some Colorado kids or adults READ instead of being glued to the idiot box all day, that's great by me.

Utopiacowboy, I have a hunch that the reason you know so many Colombian immigrants who don't speak English is because your wife doesn't speak English. It's probably a somewhat self-selecting group.

Other countries seem to do just great with multiple languages. Switzerland is great, Spain is great, Belgium, well, forget Belgium but you get my point. People who choose to learn more languages generally have better opportunities than those who don't, and that cuts in all directions.

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Colombiche says on Aug 4, 2005, 13:13:

I am not saying it is unfair..... And I totally believe that immigrants should learn English in order to be successful. Go with the flow, cannot turn back the clock.

I am just trying to bring up the poing that originally Spanish was a spoken language of the US, half of what is known today as part of the anglo world was actually Mexico. Now, I don't want to go into a tangent discussing whether Texas would be better off as part of Mexico (probably not), but I just wanted to remind you that the language that you now call foreign is not so foreign after all. It was there before you great-great English and Irish grandparents set foot on the land.

That was my point. Spanish is NOT a foreign language in the US by any means. Can't compare it to German, Italian or Dutch. The only parallel I can draw perhaps is present day Quebec. IF these guys don't stand up for their French heritage, soon enough English Canada will take over Quebec and call French a 'foreign' language. You would be surprised.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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ColombianoX says on Aug 4, 2005, 13:15:

¿Y es que en mi país, Estados Unidos, se habla otro idioma aparte de español? Caramba, apenas me entero!



ColombianoX

'Defensor de la Hispanidad'

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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Colombiche says on Aug 4, 2005, 13:16:

Mr Hollywood I don't think Spain is doing so great with the multiple language deal, at least the Euskadi people (the Vasques) seem a wee bit peed off that Castillian is the official dialect of Spain.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Aug 4, 2005, 13:18:

Colx Estados unidos es el cuarto pais en el mundo con mas hispanohablantes despues de Mexico, Colombia y Espana.

Alla en la Florida me hizo reir lo comun que es ver las tiendas de los Cubanos, como pegan signos que dicen "Se habla Ingles". Me parecio bien picaro eso, pero me saco una buena carcajada.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Aug 4, 2005, 13:21:

Practical as I am... I would rather learn a language for its beauty and richness, than to be able to communicate with the people whose pockets are full. Mandarin? Man, I don't know if I would have the patience.

Either way, Latin American economies are developing, the Spanish population of the US is growing, I think the language of Cervantes will be an important asset for many.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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adrimm says on Aug 4, 2005, 13:26:

colombiche Too bad about your mom's hang up on mistakes. I guess TO has a big enough latin community that she can manage tho alright without feeling lonely?

My mom was the *only* foreigner in about a 200 km radius around the community that she first moved to, so she threw away fear of mistakes long ago becuase there was no alternative (tho sometimes I wish she'd be a little more attentive). To this day, she will walk up to just about anyone and initiate a conversation. We have friends from india and africa and sometimes across the accents I wonder how they all manage to communicate, but they do and it is amazing.

I just wonder if people like really weigh the benefits of a) not looking like a fool with b) being able to communicate. My mom also has a friend living in NYC who never learned English and when she comes to visit it is a bit awkward because very few of my mother's my mother's friends speak spanish. I was going to give her a cookbook when she first moved, but then I couldn't... becuase it was in English!
:|
I know it can be hard to learn English but immigrants with no alternative seem to manage it somehow.

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ColombianoX says on Aug 4, 2005, 13:33:

COLOMBICHE,

Te cuento que en el mundo en que yo crecí, con la excepción de mis padres, yo no tenía a NADIE con quien hablar en español. Por muchos años, tan pronto yo salía por esa puerta cada mañana, estaba totalmente inmerso en un mundo angloparlante, sólo pensando, escribiendo, y hablando en inglés. Mi castellano era muy limitado. No conocí a otros hispanoparlantes de mi edad hasta que llegué a la universidad. Cuando regresé a Colombia después de varios años sin ir, me di cuenta que por alguna razón me sentía más "cómodo" expresándome en español, y no quiero decir en un sentido gramático sino en uno espiritual.

Saludes,

CX

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 4, 2005, 13:34:

Basques The Basques aren't pissed that Castillian is the predominant language in Spain. They're pissed that they're part of Spain at all.

Re. GIB's "I would rather them not study Spanish as a second language because how excatly is it going to better them? It will allow them to communicate with people in the US who are to lazy too learn English. "

Well, there's also an entire wonderful world of Spanish-speaking latin America and Spain where my children, who are bilingual, will feel perfectly comfortable and fluent. If your children plan on spending the rest of their lives within the borders of the US there really isn't a compelling reason to speak anything but English, but would you wish that on them?

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Colombiche says on Aug 4, 2005, 13:46:

Mr H They wouldn't mind being part of Spain if Euskadi was the language spoken all over the country, kind of like the Quebecois would not even dream of separating from Canada if French was spoken nationwide (that stuff about French being an official language is crap, nobody outside of Quebec speaks it).


COLX,

Increible que habiendo crecido en Estados Unidos, hablando solamente Ingles, escribas el Espanol mejor que muchos Colombianos que crecieron en el pais. Te expresas bastante bien.

Lo rico de hablar en Espanol es que nuestro idioma, lejos de ser practico, es un idioma muy expresivo, muy personal. Tambien me parece un lenguaje muy hermoso y sensual, y esto lo digo sin ningun tipo de "bias".

Bueno, me voy parece que trabajar en frente de una computadora me da la libertad de botar mucha corriente aqui en la red.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Aug 4, 2005, 13:54:

Adrimm I guess in the case of my mother, she could get away with not speaking English because my father looked after her and she had the luxury of staying at home looking after my sister and I. Everything from the door out was my dad's realm: Life in Canada with all its Hardships. From the door in, it was Colombian jurisdiction: nightly rosaries, home cooked meals and a good spanking with a belt when we messed up. My mom never even made a phone call to the cable company to complain about the bills. She sees a Spanish doctor, goes to Spanish mass, has a big circle of colombian friends, watches all the novelas on Telelatino. Artificial environment? Yes. Very.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 4, 2005, 14:27:

You make a good point, Colombiche. She's a very proud and precise woman - she likes everything to be perfect. I think she doesn't like to not say things correctly and so she just doesn't speak English. You really have to be willing to make mistakes to learn a new language and she just isn't willing to make those mistakes. I'm a natural at being an idiot so I have no pride whatsoever when it comes to this stuff.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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kernow62 says on Aug 4, 2005, 15:16:

When I moved to the USA many years ago I made a point of learning the language.

As for the libraries in Denver I think that is wonderful, I have many friends who speak perfect english but really prefer to curl up with a novel in their native language. It isn't that they couldn't read a book in English but they prefer to read it in Spanish. Somebody who speaks English reasonably well might not still have enough vocabulary to enjoy a book written in English.

I think any time you speak more than one language it is an advantage, even if like me there are only 500 people in the world who I can speak to. It comes in real handy in a pub for freaking out the tourists.

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adrimm says on Aug 4, 2005, 15:20:

Fluent in Cornish? If so, that's amazing, congratulations!

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 4, 2005, 15:32:

I guess GIB, I guess then that you're only in Colombia out of a sense of masochism? And thinking of going to Argentina because there's nothing there but corruption and crime? Whatever.

I never have limited my horizons or those of my kids. It would be just great if my kids learn Madarin or any other language. However they had a chance to learn Spanish and I think that's a real blessing.

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kernow62 says on Aug 4, 2005, 15:41:

Adrimm, not quite fluent, but I am working on it. Talk about a useless language to learn, Cornish must be it, but in actuality it is quite interesting the parallels with Spanish both in word order and some actual words.

For example table = mos which is quite similar to mesa; fish = puscas again similar to pescado; rabbit = conyn which again is similar to conejo. I suppose it is the Latin influence in both languages. I could go on and on.

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lpdiver says on Aug 4, 2005, 17:28:

Colombiche... I don't know where you get your information but it is patently wrong. I have relatives in St. Bernard " where things ain't hard" and although I imagine that there is someplace that Spanish is spoken it isn't common.
Cajun and Ebonics is another matter.

Antony

"cook some rice!"

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lpdiver says on Aug 4, 2005, 17:30:

Cowboy... I find that the liberal application of alcohol helps. No lie. I am sure that I sound like an ass; but, I do communicate.

T

"cook some rice!"

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 4, 2005, 18:04:

Reminds me of my daughter. She doesn't know any Spanish but after a few drinks, she sure thinks she does!

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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lpdiver says on Aug 4, 2005, 18:30:

Better keep an eye on her Cowboy Mt assinine Spanglish garnered me a Colombiana wife and a half breed daughter...jejeje. Never been happier.

T

"cook some rice!"

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Qubo says on Aug 5, 2005, 07:48:

This is my second time writing a long post but I lost everything..So, I am going to make this 1 short..Mr. Hollywood, thanks for pointing out that mistake, but you missed the point. I didn't know my english was going to be scrutinized.


Why should I encourage more books in spanish in public libraries if the objective is to help hispanics learn english..this doesnt make any since at all...This isn't hurting YOu and I because its a leisure for me maybe you to read in spanish but again what about portuguese, french, italian, mandarin, etc etc...Why should hispanics have easy access to books in spanish if they can't read or speak english? I've never met a Spaniard living in the USA/Canada that couldn't speak english to save their life.

What about all the non-spanish speaking immigrants? Should my family migrating here HAVE to learn spanish too in order to conseguir el sueno Americano? This is just an incentive for hispanics to become lazier and never learn english which will keep them in their little spanish speaking barrio never accepted in the mainstream. I think its more important to learn english than spanish in the USA/Canada. I can pardon older immigrants with children but the young adults living here for more than 5 years with absolutely no responsibilities who lack basic knowledge of english is just plain laziness and should not be offended when they are treated like idiots.

I am all for a mulitlingual society but more books in spanish is a waste of tax payers money...

There is a college that offers hispanic students the option of taking all of their prerequisites in spanish and completing their program in english..I dont see how this is going to help any individual learn english...I have countless of stories where hispanics were upset when no one didn't address them in spanish and felt that they were being discriminated against...Hello!!!! English is spoken here.....I went to the mall and couldn't found one person in a clothing department store that could assist me in english. I had to speak spanish to her. Dont you find this appalling. Mind you, I live in NJ not Southern Florida...LOL...

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Albatross says on Aug 5, 2005, 07:54:

Fire the losers The people responsible for that desision should be fired.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 5, 2005, 08:36:

Thanks for your reply, Qubo, and I was really just teasing you about "conversate".

A couple observations: Who ever said it was the objective of a library system to teach anyone English? That should be the goal of the educational system, if anything. With regard to other languages, I've been in plenty of libraries in places like New York or San Francisco with HUGE sections of Korean, Japanese, Hebrew, Russian and, yes, Spanish books. The objective of a library is to provide books and information in whatever form best serves their clients. If their clients want books in Mandarin, give them Mandarin.

And there are plenty of reasons why someone might want to read books in Spanish besides being monolingual in Spanish. I can read in both languages but prefer to read in English except for novels and poetry that were originally written in Spanish. Those I prefer in the original language.

Another thing I'm frankly stunned by on this board is the continual characterization by latinos of other latinos as LAZY. My god, that is just the most cliché stereotype of latinos. Next you're going to tell me they all talk like Speedy Gonzalez and only drive lowrider cars. Would you call the people who use Mandarin books from the San Francisco Public Library lazy for that?

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Colombiche says on Aug 5, 2005, 08:44:

Right On Hollywood I don't know what is up with all the people in this forum characterizing Latinos as lazy. I work with a bunch of Mandarin speaking techies who have been in Canada for many years, are citizens and still relatively young (mid 30's) and cannot communicate properly in English. A lot of them never really learn to communicate properly and they watch TV, movies and read books in their language.

I don't know why you are all so down on Latinos. So what if the public library wants to offer books in Spanish? Books are items that people purchase for leisure. I speak perfect English, have to talk English all day at work, but when it comes time to cuddle up with 100 Years of solitude I would much rather read it in Spanish. I would love to have access to Spanish books. That does not mean that I do not speak English. I have a right to read books in my native language if I please.

As I said before too, remember, just remember that half of the US used to be Spanish speaking until it was snatched away from the Mexicans. The first colonizers of what is today the US were Spaniards. Where do you guys get off acting as though Spanish is some sort of foreign language? What are you so afraid of anyway, are you terrified that Spanish will become an official language some time down the road?

Haven't you guys noticed that almost all, if not all of the colombianos on this website are all perfectly bilingual???????? Proof of that is that we are all sitting here in a Colombia forum having this argument in *YOUR* language, not ours. How many of you beside platano can actually write me a reply in Spanish that is as legible as my English?

I realize that there are also many gringos in this forum that can write spanish, but the great majority of you barely know how to say "una cerveza por favor" so where do you get off critizing people for not being bilingual?????

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 5, 2005, 08:48:

No tengo miedo.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Aug 5, 2005, 08:48:

a very good decision if it is true. I applaud the Denver Public Library for a visionary and courageous language policy. Mr. Hollywood is right on the target: the objective of libraries is not to teach people a language but rather promote literacy, flow of information and provide multiple cultural facilities for all segments of population.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Colombiche says on Aug 5, 2005, 08:55:

Oh... I forgot to mention Desi. Right off the top of my head, Desi and Platano are the only non-latinos in this forum that can write impeccable Spanish. Where do you guys get off bitching about people not being perfectly bilingual??? Give me a break. I dare one of you to write me back a few paragraphs in good Spanish.

I am waiting.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 5, 2005, 09:02:

WTF? Tell you what. I'll write you some impeccable Spanish the day my wife says more than 10 words in English. We may have to wait 17 years for this to happen.... No, my Spanish isn't perfect but I have to speak Spanish every single gd day of my life. Yes, it's fractured and I make mistakes but hell, I'm doing it! Which is more than I can say for a lot of people who want to live in North America and spend the rest of their lives speaking Spanish only. Nobody's asking for impeccable!!!!!!!!!!

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 5, 2005, 09:05:

BTW, my stepdaughter came here when she was 10 years old and she can speak impeccable English. She didn't even want to learn English but it just happened. It's easy when you're 10, your brain just sucks it up like a sponge - no accomplishment there. Try learning Russian when you're 45 and come back and tell me how easy it was. In impeccable Russian!

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Colombiche says on Aug 5, 2005, 09:06:

But your wife Utopia Is not necessarily representative of the entire Colombian population. Please name me one, just one Colombiano in this forum who cannot write decent English. Heck, even the ones that are based in Colombia can write well in English.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 5, 2005, 09:07:

Wrong! Kat writes English about the same way I write Spanish. And I am NOT criticizing her or singling her out. I think her English is very good and I always understand her but no, it's far from impeccable!

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 5, 2005, 09:10:

PBH up until very recently has been an English language board which is why the few Colombianos who post here are bilingual. The people like my wife (and they are in the vast majority) do not post here and are not bilingual. They are monolingual. I never met a group of people LESS interested in English (or any other non-Spanish language) than Colombians.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Colombiche says on Aug 5, 2005, 09:11:

Good Point there Utopia It isn't as easy to learn a language when you are older as it is when you are younger. I think your learning to communicate in Spanish is quite an accomplishment, maybe you just spoiled your wife. She doesn't need to learn English now because you speak her language.

But it does take some effort to speak and write both languages well. I know it took a huge effort in my part to lose the Spanish accent when I speak english, and it takes effort for me to write spanish at an academic level, because I left colombia at the same age as your stepdaughter.

That is precisely my point, most of the Latinos who cannot speak English are working class, older folks with minimal education, who have to work and have no time to study.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Aug 5, 2005, 09:15:

But I still don't think it is right To single out Colombians as the people being the least interested in learning other languages. That is simply not true.

I like a good challenge. You tell me to try to learn Russian at 45. Well, I am far from 45 yet, but I am in the process of learning Portuguese and Italian right now, at least well enough to communicate with my clients. Those are easy languages for me because they are Latin based. I will try to go out there and learn German. Then I will be poliglota.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Aug 5, 2005, 09:16:

And I never met people less interested in learning a non English language than Americans. Admit it Utopia.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 5, 2005, 09:23:

When we watch movies made in Italy or Brazil, my wife can understand the dialogue relatively well. Well enough that she doesn't need subtitles. They are fairly easy for a Spanish speaker. With French, on the other hand, which I can also speak (although it's rusty), she is totally lost. So when you can speak impeccable German, then you'll truly have accomplished something. I'll tell you one thing. If I spent 17 years in Colombia, my Spanish would be impeccable. And yes, I think my wife is VERY representative. I find many more Colombians are like her than like yourself. BTW, I had to speak Spanish to the "official" translator who translated some documents for us in Medellin. Now he was representative!

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 5, 2005, 09:26:

Agree about that I agree that Americans are among the laziest people in the world with regard to learning foreign languages. It's not a priority in the education system nor to most people pursue it as a self-improvement thing. I see a lot more "Learn English Here" storefronts all over Bogota than I've ever seen language schools in the US.

I actually write Spanish better than I speak it. Now that I think about it I might write English better than I speak it, too. But it costs me a lot of energy to write Spanish really well, so I only do when required.

People often talk about English as if it's the "official" language of the US. It's not. There is no official language of the US though, obviously, English is the dominant one. Here's an interesting link about legal attempts to change that fact.

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_lang.html

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Colombiche says on Aug 5, 2005, 09:26:

Okay But how about the Americans? do you think Americans as a whole are very interested in learning other languages?

I went to Marocco, a dirt poor country, way poorer than any Latin country, and everybody there spoke English, Berber, Spanish and French. Even the poor toothless bastards selling fake silver jewellery on the street could converse in any of these 4 languages. Some of them spoke Russian too. My hat off to these guys.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 5, 2005, 09:28:

Utopia Man, it sounds like you and your wife need to come to some sort of resolution of this language thing. It's obviously really under your skin.

You live in Texas, right? So it's easy for her to have a life all in Spanish. Time to move to Newfoundland for a couple years, I guess.

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Colombiche says on Aug 5, 2005, 09:28:

Wait a minute... How about all the bilingual schools in colombia like Colombo Britanico and Colombo Americano... where kids take their classes in English since they are virtually toddlers? I have never seen anything like that anywhere in North America except for the French immersion schools here in Canada, which are not very popular by the way. I have met very few anglo Canadians that can speak French.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Aug 5, 2005, 09:31:

If you want your wife to learn English... Talk to her in pure English 8 hrs a day. Alternate between the two languages so she meets you halfway. Or else do as Hollywood says, move up to Fort McMurray Alberta so she can't have any Spanish friends.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 5, 2005, 11:03:

When I lived in Montreal, I could speak good French. My sister still lives there with her boyfriend and they both can speak good French. I have a bunch of cousins who stil live there and their French is flawless. Almost any Anglo left in Quebec can speak French. I don't think you can say that about most of the French-speaking Quebecers, that they can speak English.

Right here in San Antonio, there are many public schools that have Spanish immersion for non-Spanish speakers. The entire class does everything in Spanish as they proceed through each grade level. There are not enough of these classes to meet the demand. In all my trips to Colombia I have never encountered anyone whose English was good enough for us to speak English instead of Spanish. People like you keep telling me these people are everywhere but I never seem to encounter them. Do you think I could live in Colombia the way my wife lives here, speaking only English and expecting everyone to understand them and do business with them in English? Not just no, but hell, no! I rest my case.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Qubo says on Aug 5, 2005, 11:10:

Colombiche,I am Latino, a Colombiche,

I am Latino, and I think "banishing English language books to the backroom" would be an insult to non-spanish people. How would tax payers benefit from this?

There are several spanish bookstores in my area NJ/NY and at the Public library there are sections with books 'en espanol' and other foreign lanuages which I have no problem with and enjoy reading.

Again, How would non spanish speaking community in Denver enjoy going to a small section in backroom to look for books in ENGLISH? In my area I've met many hispanics who could care less about learning english. First thing that comes out their mouth "Pues, ingles es muy dificil" or " No tengo tiempo pa' esa vaina" but nevertheless, they'll continue watching Telenovelas instead of taking the time to watch "noticias" in english.. If you've been living in the USA for 17 years why the HELL can't you speak basic english...I'm not asking you to speak impeccable english but at least know how to ask for directions...

colombiche, you give me the impression, as if speaking impeccable english is a great accomplishment...You are SUPPOSE to speak good english if you came here at 10...I'm not attacking you personally but just wanted to point that out..Its hard coming from another country and adapting to a new one but that's the price ALL immigrants pay...I can relate to you because am also Latino.

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Qubo says on Aug 5, 2005, 11:26:

Exactly my point!!!!!! UTC,

I couldn't of said it better..

"Do you think I could live in Colombia the way my wife lives here, speaking only English and expecting everyone to understand them and do business with them in English? Not just no, but hell, no! I rest my case."


The key word in this paragraph is "EXPECTING". Hispanics expect non hispanohablantes to speak spanish to them. Par exemple, in montreal you are addressed 'en francais' first then english..at least the person tried to speak french....hispanics in the USA don't even try.

UTC, side not. I think you are fustrated with your wife's lack of interest in learning english. Why dont you force her to speak english...la solution..n'est-ce pas!!!!!!!

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Qubo says on Aug 5, 2005, 11:37:

Senhor Hollywood,

Young adults with no responsibilities and have lived here for at least five years can't speak english...I believe calling them lazy is being kind of generous...

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Colombiche says on Aug 5, 2005, 11:41:

Actually Qubo I know people who were born and raised here who write English really badly. I think speaking good English and writing it well is an accomplishment.

The reason why Utopia can't get around talking English in Colombia is because there isn't a sizeable English population there. If one day we have a fair size Anglo community, like say 13% (which is the latino population in the states) I am sure you will be able to do business in English as well down there. Fact of life. Simple.

What I don't understand is , if it irks him so much to have to speak Spanish ,why would he go find a wife in Medellin? That doesn't cease to baffle me.

For the record, I do know plenty of Quebequers who do not speak a word of French, I dated one for a year a few years ago, he couldn't put a sentence together in French. I don't know too many Anglophones that speak French either. Come to think of it, I don't even know one. I worked with a high level manager at RBC (un cadre supérieur) whose last name was French, and he could not translate a simple sentence for us at a meeting...That is just my experience. That is what I see day in and day out here in Toronto.


I personally think it is better to learn English if you are in North America. I am not against that. I am just against saying things like they should all be shipped back home because of that.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Albatross says on Aug 5, 2005, 11:52:

Colombiche, por que estas esperando... Yo tengo sed, una cerveza por favor.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Albatross says on Aug 5, 2005, 12:15:

. Anybody who thinks that banishing English books to the backroom of a United States public library is a good idea is either a fool or incredibly self-centered. I assume most foreigners are the latter, thinking that even though it is insulting to the American taxpayer, it’s good for them (and their "tribe") so why not. The growing "I don't give a shit about assimilation" attitude will eventually backfire as discontent festers. The growing conservatism in this country partly a reaction to idiotic fringe liberal ideas such as this one or like the proposal in California a few years ago to grant drivers licenses to illegal immigrants. Certain self-centered Latinos may think it’s cool to take money from the public trust because they are too lazy to learn English, but they are only adding fuel to the anti-immigrant fire.

Perhaps it would be also be a good idea to banish Spanish books to the back rooms of the libraries in Bogota.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Qubo says on Aug 5, 2005, 12:16:

Little secret I found out..Most people who speak just one language are terrible writers and have no clue about grammar rules. I tip my hat out to you for your accomplishments. I didn't think of it that way...I am not too familiar with Toronto..I've been their once "solamente un fin de semana". I work in the telecommunication field and interact on occasion with employees from Toronto and I was shocked to see that majority couldn't conjugate in the present form "aller" in first person singular . Estaba sorprendido...Canada being a complete bilingual society is pure B.S. pero in Montreal casi todo los ciudadanos son bilingues..especialmente los jovenes...I have family that lives in 'Brossard' South Shore...even the hispanics there speaks french to get by...

I think UTC is just fustrated with his paisa for not trying hard enough...How does your wife interact with your family, UTC? Is it difficult or are the kids the translators..

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Colombiche says on Aug 5, 2005, 12:17:

Oh I looks like... I just taught Albatross how to say his first Spanish sentence. If you keep trying, one day you will be part of the bilingual world too. For now, you are still boy from the burbs.

Lesson 2:

"Soy un chico de los suburbios. Nunca he salido de mi pais, pero me creo chistoso"

You should be able to master that pretty soon. Give it a shot.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Albatross says on Aug 5, 2005, 12:28:

Pero Primero Si, pero antes yo apprendo Espanol quesiera una cerveza, Poker por favor.
Que pasa... no requerdas donde esta el refrigerador ?

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Colombiche says on Aug 5, 2005, 12:30:

Quhubo I actually took some French up to the tenth grade, didn't have much of a problem with the grammar because it is astoundingly similar to Spanish grammar. Today, I can read a book in French. I don't consider myself fluent by any means, but I have a grasp on the language.

I totally agree with your theory however, that bilingual people are better with grammar than those who only speak one language. Speaking two totally different languages gives you a different angle on how things can be said, verbs can be conjugated etc etc. English and spanish are so totally different, that sometimes it is just fun to translate things literally and see what comes out.

In Montreal, almost everybody is bilingual. That is because the younger French Canadian generation is fluent in English. You would have to venture out into the Montreal burbs to find people who speak only French and no English. However, you can find people in dowtown Montreal who speak only English and live and work there.

PS: Tu es d'où ?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Albatross says on Aug 5, 2005, 12:32:

. je vais ?

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 5, 2005, 12:35:

I get it I see, you're all bent about the "banishing english books to the backroom" thing.

What you're missing is that U.S. Newswire is a press release service. Platano wasn't kind enough to include the citation of which group sent out the press release, but I'm willing to bet it wasn't the Denver Public Library and that it probably was a group that's pushing for English-only public policies.

Anyway, don't believe everything you read in print. For $500 bucks you can send out a press release saying any kind of bullshit you like to every paper in the country and someone just might pick it up.

"Banished to the back room" probably means, "the library bought a bunch of Spanish books and we aren't happy about it."

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Albatross says on Aug 5, 2005, 12:38:

:( Well now I feel stupid...

So does this mean that yesterday Elvis was NOT found stuffed up the butt of a captured space alien ?

DAMN the Inquirer...

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Colombiche says on Aug 5, 2005, 12:39:

aprendo recuerdas "antes de aprender" not "antes yo apprendo"

I wouldn't get you a beer, you are not worth my trek to the fridge... however....

I would get Platano or Colx a beer! Platano doesn't drink though. Platanin, quieres una malteada? ;) ColX, quieres una cerveza aguila? I will walk to the fridge for nice guys like them once in a while.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 5, 2005, 12:46:

Who even needs to know or speak French in Toronto? Of course those Anglos can't speak French. That's not a fair comparison - it makes almost as much sense as expecting Colombians in Colombia to speak English. The examples I gave all live in Montreal or its environs and of course they can all speak French.

I don't expect to speak English in Colombia and even if there were a sizeable population of English speakers there, I think it would be extremely presumptuous of them to expect Colombians to cater to them by speaking their foreign language (English).

Finally, it doesn't irk me to speak Spanish with my wife at all. Actually I enjoy it and I continually work on improving my Spanish - I don't think a day goes by without my learning a new word - yesterday's was peñasco. I learned Spanish in order to be able to communicate with her and it really was and is a labor of love. Colombians remind me of Norteamericanos in many ways - they don't take any kind of criticism well and they expect everyone to communicate with them in their own language.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Colombiche says on Aug 5, 2005, 12:52:

LOL Utopia, I will give you that much, Colombians are a proud bunch. Very proud. Not easy to push around. Sometimes getting into an argument with my colombian friends is like a never ending story. Somebody just has to wave the white flag at some point. Of course, I never said I was the exception to the rule.

When you piss off your wife does she say "No me saque la piedra!!!"?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Aug 5, 2005, 12:54:

Wait but.. Canada is a bilingual country. All the street signs in Toronto are in both languages, we are only 3 hours away from the border with Quebec. I don't think it would be so unreasonable for Torontonians to speak French.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 5, 2005, 12:55:

I will say this, Colombiche. You argue well and you don't hit below the belt. Come on, how about a pic?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Colombiche says on Aug 5, 2005, 12:57:

Mr. UC I knew that was coming next. You are so..... so.... what's the word? Focused. You and Elmo.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Qubo says on Aug 5, 2005, 13:12:

J'suis Carihno Colombiche,

Je suis brésilien mon p'tit chou. Você fala português? Cherie, you shouldn't have a problem with "la langue de Molière" french. its one of the latin base languages..thus, the grammar shouldn't be a problem at all for you...Pero la pronuncacion es otra cosa. Believe me you can be fluent in french in about a year...You speak spanish which has alot of similarities in grammar and you speak english which has alot of french words spelled the same thus, you just need to train your ears and practice your "R's"...

BTW, almost all of the mid-west would be speaking french if Napoleon didn't sell it after losing posession of a caribbean island in the greater antilles..thus, french has been part of north america for a long time as well...

que este bien mi hija!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!até logo

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Colombiche says on Aug 5, 2005, 13:32:

Prazer em conhecê-lo Qubo Você fala português? -- Mais ou menos, Eu quero aprender mais!

A onde vive Você?

Todo chevere! (Como você diz isso em português?)

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Qubo says on Aug 5, 2005, 13:36:

Mr. hollywood Ok, you got a point there but I just read Platano's post and was appalled by that statement...Can you imagine walking to a library and seeing everything in spanish in the USA and a small section for anlgophones...

I am just tired of hispanics thinking that americans to cater to them. I'm tired of hearing wow you speak spanish like us..Why can't they say "I can speak english too" no...all you hear is "Ju espik é pan" from young adults whose been here for more than three years. My parents paid their dues just like every other non english speaking immigrant. Why should the new wave of immigrant be given everything on a "Silver Splatter"....

Sorry in advance if I sound harsh but I've been having some wierd experience with hispanohablantes...My parents still have accents but I dont have to translate for them any longer...I remember those days...LOL...good memories..Colombiche were you a translator for your parents?...

Castellano es una lengua muy bonita pero aca en los E.U/Canada tienes que aprender ingles si quieren seguir para adelante..

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platano says on Aug 5, 2005, 13:48:

I am pleased by the discussion this thread has engendered... Mr. Hollywood, you are right. The press release came from and English-first group which is very concerned even though only seven branch libraries are affected. There thinking goes like this:
"The library is a purveyor primarily of written information, and it should be provided largely, say 95 percent, in the native language of our country, which is English," said Fred Elbel, president of Colorado Alliance for Immigration Reform.

Here are some more stats:
Hispanics make up 34.8 percent of Denver's population, up from 23 percent in 1990, and about 20 percent speak Spanish at home. Children from Hispanic families account for 54.1 percent of the enrollment in Denver public schools.
Although some patrons have praised the library's vision, the Language and Learning idea has met with resistance from those who say that the proposal is another step toward placing Spanish on an equal footing with English as the national language.

Colombiche, thank you for the compliment. You wouldn't believe how much I struggle over proper placement of tildes and umlauts. I starting learning Spanish at age 35 and it took 4 years till I felt comfortably bilingual... and I still make silly mistakes.

Stephen Krashen, an expert in second language acquisition, says reading is a way to improve your ability in the target language. So, in those majority hispanic neighborhoods, having library books available (free of charge) in Spanish should be a big help to USA English speakers in learning Spanish. (for those who interested).

Plátano, el banano verde
Oxigeno Verde ¡Libertad por Ingrid y los demás!

plátano

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Colombiche says on Aug 5, 2005, 13:50:

Quhubo I am still the translator for my parent... LOL. They say you can't teach an old dog new tricks and in the case of my parents that certainly proved to be true.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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adrimm says on Aug 5, 2005, 14:18:

French becoming more popular in some parts of Canada I know that it BC it is a huge struggle to get kids into immersion programs becuase they can't keep up with the demand for it, and New Brunswick just becae officially biligual. My french is functional but crude (I can communicate, tho it isn't very pretty), but better than a few Montrealers I know.

Multilingualism is awesome. My gawd look at Desi, Finnish, Swedish, English, and Spanish!

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kernow62 says on Aug 5, 2005, 15:23:

One thing I notice is that certain people keep saying a waste of American taxpayer's money, well excuse me but there are plenty of taxpayers who just happen to speak Spanish and likely as not passable English. If they are paying taxes too, why shouldn't Spanish language books be available? The way I see it, if 30% of library patrons are Spanish speakers let 30% of the books be in Spanish. What is so wrong with that scenario. In our library in Orlando we understably have a large Spanish section, and a large section in various Asian languages and a growing but still small French section, but the books in English probably outnumber these foreign language sections 100 to 1 if not more.

Also there are more books about Colombia written in Spanish than in English at our library, so even Anglos like myself get benefit from these tomes.

I tend to believe that the post by the OP was a bit of sensationalism on the part of the journalists.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 5, 2005, 16:16:

Question for the Canucks Since there are so many Canadians here, I have a question. Is it common for French speaking people in Canada to be monolingual in French? Or are most of them fluent in English too?

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 5, 2005, 16:25:

Statistics Canada reports the following:

About 5,231,500 people reported to the 2001 Census that they were bilingual, compared with 4,841,300 five years earlier, an 8.1% increase. In 2001, these individuals represented 17.7% of the population, up from 17.0% in 1996.

Nationally, 43.4% of francophones reported that they were bilingual, compared with 9.0% of anglophones.

Within Quebec, the growth in the bilingualism rate from 1996 to 2001 was even greater than in the previous five-year period. In 2001, two out of every five individuals (40.8%) reported that they were bilingual, compared with 37.8% in 1996 and 35.4% in 1991.

Outside Quebec, however, the rate remained almost unchanged at 10.3% in 2001 compared with 10.2% in 1996.

The bilingualism rate increased in every province except Manitoba and Saskatchewan. However, in almost every case, the rate of increase was slower than or equal to the gain between 1991 and 1996. The decline in Manitoba and Saskatchewan was related to the decrease in their francophone populations.

In New Brunswick, 34.2% of the population reported that they were bilingual in 2001, compared with 32.6% in 1996 and 29.5% in 1991.

Ontario's rate edged up from 11.6% to 11.7%. In Prince Edward Island, it rose a full percentage point, from 11.0% to 12.0%.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 5, 2005, 16:30:

I should also add that the high rate of bilingualism in Quebec is largely a result of Anglos and non-French speaking non-Anglos being bilingual rather than the French being bilingual. Statistics Canada also states:

In Quebec, anglophones had a very high rate of bilingualism in all age groups. Between 1996 and 2001, the bilingualism rate for the anglophone group as a whole rose from 61.7% in 1996 to 66.1% in 2001.

The bilingualism rate among francophones climbed from 33.7% in 1996 to 36.6% in 2001. Since many francophones learn English once they have completed their full time schooling, the rate peaked in the age groups 20 to 24 (53.6%) and 25 to 29 (53.7%).

In addition, the rate increased substantially in every age group. In 2001, for example, 41.5% of francophones aged 15 to 19 reported they were bilingual, compared with 35.3% in 1996.

Even among allophones, for whom English-French bilingualism means learning two second languages, the rate was very high, and still climbing. From 1996 to 2001, it jumped from 46.7% to 50.4%.

Moreover, 73.1% of allophones in Quebec, were able to conduct a conversation in French in 2001, compared with 69.3% in 1996. In 2001, 69.1% were able to speak English, up from 66.4% in 1996.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 5, 2005, 17:24:

If I read you correctly If I'm reading you correctly, then a majority of French speakers in Quebec don't speak English. How then, is that different from having a Spanish speaking population in the US? Both countries have a long tradition and history with those respective languages.

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 5, 2005, 17:44:

You're right. Two thirds of the French-speaking Quebecers can only speak French. The difference is that Canada for its entire history has had a sizeable French minority while the US has not. True, parts of the US were once part of Mexico but even in Texas the Spanish speaking population was very small fifty years ago. In fact, it's common to find people here who are Latino but who can't speak Spanish because it's use was discouraged. Now we are making a 180 degree turn and saying you never need to learn English. As a result we may end up creating a situation like Canada's in which linguistic issues like separtism are ever-present. You can bet guys like Tom Tancredo are going to use this to their advantage.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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adrimm says on Aug 5, 2005, 18:11:

Slight Majority Mr Hollywood. Just barely. Over 1/3 of Quebec Francophones are bilingual, with 54% of those ages 20-29 being bilingual.

The difference is that French is an officially recognized language, all Canadian Federal communication, signs, literature is produced in both languages. Provincially, French is *the* official language for Quebec. There is no disadvantage for francophone people in Quebec.

In the US, there is no such state that has Spanish as an official language. So one would assume that new immigrants would learn the new language (english), becuase the alternative is full of disadvantages.

If there were to be a Spanish-language state (a la Quebec style) then public school would be taught in Spanish, all signs would be in Spanish, all state employees would be Spanish-speaking, all communication would be in Spanish.

What happens now is that since the US world largely has things happen in English, people who don't speak it lose out on alot things. (of course hispanics are aware of this when they move, so it is in their best interest to learn Engish). If there were a *Spanish-only* state (or two), then in these states the Spanish speakers would have the opportunities, and Anglophones would be disadvantaged (as is in Quebce).

IMHO if the US hispanic community continues to grow as it has recently, while stubbornly clinging to it's language then States like Florida, Texas and California may have to consider becoming officially bilingual (especially if they have legitimate Hispanic heritage). One or the other breeds friction, the best is official biligual.

UTC: The allophone numbers are impressive!!!!!!! That's quite a feat to learn not just one but 2 new second languages!

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lpdiver says on Aug 5, 2005, 19:04:

Cowboy... I can relate. I know a lot of Colombians in the USA and my wife is amongst the minority in desiring (strongly) to learn English. she attends classes and studys hard. BUT; when I come home and the computer is blaring out radion Caracol and the television is on Univision I get a chagrined response to my inquiries as to whether or not she will learn English in that fasion.

Most of the Colombians I know hang out in the latino stores and with latinos...which is okay even good. However, it does not promote learning English.

Our bigger problem is the bastardization of both languages into Spenglish or Spanglish.

Our public library is to me more of a place of exposure to culture than learning per se. We can check out sculpture, paintings,videos,DVDs, and books in foreign languages.

I am often viewed as an asshole in the local community and by my wife because rather than stepping forward and speaking for her I let/force her to struggle through everyday situations. She usually does thank me after the fact.

Tony

"cook some rice!"

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