Debt... Can they track me down in Colombia?

Simon says on May 15, 2008, 12:01:

I've also wondered the same thing but regarding a student loan. Say someone hypothetically had a student loan in the US and moved to Colombia and stopped paying it, what could happen?

"Tu vas a ver, llegaras a mi edad y veras que Colombia seguira igual"-----Simon Sr.

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tejasmarcos says on May 15, 2008, 12:08:

you are on the wrong board for that question bro. even if you get answers here, take them at face value. i have never heard of consumer debt being sold overseas, but anything is possible. also, there is no true leverage here for a debt collecter as you have no credit rating more than likely in Colombia.

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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rhydewithdis says on May 15, 2008, 12:11:

Credit card debt is different from student debt.

a) Credit card companies sell off unpaid balances to other companies who buy the debt for pennies on the dollar. Those companies in turn will use their resources to make you pay. If they have no way of contacting you and your debt is only 3k, they will move on to easier fish.

b) Student debt is different, in the US at least. You can't ever erase student debt, unless you die. Even a bankruptcy will not eliminate student debt.

"US Federal student loans and some private student loans can be discharged in bankruptcy only with a showing of "undue hardship." Bankruptcy Code Section 523(a)(8) determines what loans can and can not be discharged. The undue hardship standard varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but is generally difficult to meet, making student loans practically non-dischargeable through bankruptcy. While US Federal student loans can be discharged for total and permanent disability, private student loans cannot be discharged outside of bankruptcy."

They said I couldn't play football I was too small / They say I couldn't play basketball I wasn't tall / They say I couldn't play baseball at all / And now everyday of my life I ball.

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usher127 says on May 15, 2008, 12:13:

The only nightmare scenario I can envisage... would be my bank selling the debt abroad... but this is almost impossible to believe... especially if we are talking about Colombia...

But, if the debt was never written off… who knows what is possible in 15 years time...

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tejasmarcos says on May 15, 2008, 12:16:

old consumer debt drops form us based credit repositories in 7 years. same in england?

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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RAAAY says on May 15, 2008, 12:19:

Usher,,,,,,,,,,,,You're a young fella............living in Colombia is great now, but you don't know how circumstances could change for you and you might want to go back to Britain.

In theory, the British bank could get a judgement against you. Failure to address this judgement could result in them having a commital order prepared. If you had to go home for a family funeral, for example, it's not inconcievable that the local constabulary would pick you up. You would remain at her Majesty's pleasure until a court would decide what to do with you. Is this likely to happen, for $3000 probably not. Could it happen, yes.

And Simon........don't write off a country over a managable debt. Same for you, you live there now, you might come back to Colombia and discover you want to go back to the States again. Furthermore, you got the student loan, made use of the opportunities it helped provide..........don't be a scumbag.........pay it back................re-negotiate the term, if you have to.


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.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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RAAAY says on May 15, 2008, 12:26:

And Tejas..............if a creditor gets a judgement for a consumer debt...........which they normally always do.................this is a public record....it will remain on your credit reports if the creditor updates it..............which they also normally do.


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.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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usher127 says on May 15, 2008, 12:31:

RAAY, I agree in principle... but life is short... and most importantly...

I don't want to go back to the UK... and even if I did, I can't... i've burnt my bridges as far as my career goes... I can't make any decent money in London...so... if I leave Colombia... it will be to many other places before the UK.

If the police bobby wants to pick me up at the airport... so be it... we can have a cup of tea and discuss the weather...

So, does anyone disagree with the following...

- My bank will not sell the debt to a collector in Colombia

- If I already have a Colombian bank account, they are not going to suddenly want a reference from my UK bank... i'm now a Colombian resident - and nor is my UK bank going to contact my Colombian bank to tell them i'm a meany

- If I was to receive inheritance money or anything like that.. in the UK... I could receive that without a debt collector getting his hands on it

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El Polo says on May 15, 2008, 12:32:

Simon if your looking to stay in Colombia a while you can apply for forebearance on your student loan, they would stop billing you for a specific amount of time, just dont inform them your going to Colombia to chase cachacas around (OK they probably dont know what a cachaca is, so you might get away with it), just tell them you lost your job or something to that extent, they may ask for a letter of termination from your employer though. You dont however, want to default on that student loan just in case you do have to come back to states like RAAY said. Play it safe!

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usher127 says on May 15, 2008, 12:34:

Student debt is easy in the UK...

You don't have to pay it off unless you earn over a certain amount...
So once a year I send them the same letter... explaining how I work for cash somewhere in the Colombian jungle... and they are fine with that... I also show them a statement from my UK bank which has no significant income.

I just need to do it until i'm 50.

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Tinto (Moderator) says on May 15, 2008, 12:36:

Two of the "big three" credit reporting agencies in the US have affiliates or direct operations in Colombia. I wouldn't underestimate the power of data-mining to make a match someday; then you've got crappy credit in a couple of countries.

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Simon says on May 15, 2008, 12:36:

Ok, so they wouldn't be sending the marines to track me down.

"Tu vas a ver, llegaras a mi edad y veras que Colombia seguira igual"-----Simon Sr.

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tejasmarcos says on May 15, 2008, 12:36:

my advice to you is to consult a consumer credit messageboard specific to england. they exist for the USA.

ray - indeed it appears judgements are becoming more common these days regarding consumer credit debt and each state in the USA dictates what can and cannot be done regarding this issue. it is not an uncomplicated area of the law.

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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usher127 says on May 15, 2008, 12:38:

Credit is not my concern... I already bought my apartment... I will never take out a mortgage... I already have a bank account which will always be in the plus... I intend to make money...

My only concern would be a Colombian debt collector...

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cali373 says on May 15, 2008, 12:39:

It is all about cost, when it comes to debt collection. if it is cost effective to track your ass down for 3000 lbs then they will. Some how since there are international laws, jursidictions, it will probably cost more than that to have lawyers collect 3000 lbs.

Hey if you dont plan to go back don't pay it. jajajaj companies do that stuff all the time. If you are a corporation it is easier to get away with bad debt.

I personally pay anything I tend to borrow.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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usher127 says on May 15, 2008, 12:41:

Exactly... it's free money... and in my case... morally justified, given my banks's perpetual incompetence that has cost me serious time and money

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El Polo says on May 15, 2008, 12:49:

"Ok, so they wouldn't be sending the marines to track me down" Simon

Highley unlikely, unless of course, the cachaca your banging is messing with a Marine :)

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RAAAY says on May 15, 2008, 12:49:

Usher.....you won't be having tea with the bobby............commital orders are common practice in Britain, very often for a lot less than 3000 pounds. And, if they choose, they can serve it on a foreign court.

Once again, you don't know how your circumstances might change..........you might want to go back for some reason.............and no bridge is burned well enough that it can't be repaired.



Rule 11 (1) A judgment creditor desiring a warrant to be issued pursuant to a committal order shall file a request in that behalf.
(2)....
(3) Where a warrant of committal is sent to a foreign court for execution, that court shall indorse on it a notice as to the effect of section 122(3) of the Act addressed to the governor of the prison of that court.

http://www.justice.gov.uk/civil/procrules_fin/contents/schedule2/ccror...


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.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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pedro says on May 15, 2008, 12:55:

Usher, listen to what Ray is saying.

I would also add. You are planning to live in Colombia, make money and do business here, possibly among the PBH community. Don't compromise your good standing by being someone who finds an excuse not to meet his obligations.

Colombia has a credit rating agency called Datacredito.

que nota!

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panthdave says on May 15, 2008, 13:12:

For 3K don't ruin your credit in your country....

Raaayyyyyyyyyyyyy said it all.....anyways...Don't burn your bridges if you want to go back..

I have a Discharged Bankruptcy in 2005 for over 120K Dollars but that was 120K...Funny thing best thing that ever happened to me..Was like a new life and relief of stress and on top of it did a divorce at the same time..Things happen for a reason and was the best and only getting better..now...

panthdave Miami

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papiChulo says on May 15, 2008, 13:29:

usher... I doubt very much if anybody would be looking for you in Colombia. I have owed a lot more than 3K in my time and nobody has ever tried to track me down in another country. Even when they where told I went to colombia they (collectors) went silent and asked if I was ever coming back... lol. I have been back 3 times since then.

my not so savory advice is if your are going to f*&k over a bank for 3K make it 30K you'll be in the same boat anyway... fok over as many banks as you can in the UK or just apply for a shit load of credit cards and use them in Colombia.

but on second thought do you really want a bad record over 3K??? ur life... suerte

the hardest part of life is to live while you're still alive.

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usher127 says on May 15, 2008, 14:05:

I don't know how many times I have to say it... but I will NOT be going back to the UK... so, that scenario is not a factor...

in terms of my good standing in the pbh community... or not meeting my obligations... that is a seperate debate... if I could take my bank to court, I would... and I would win... but unfortunately I can''t from here... so... the next best option.. is a pre-emptive strike... people that know me here.. will know that i'm not a 'theif'.

Anyways... Raay you have me slightly worried... this is the first time i've read one of your comments without it making me laugh...

hmm... papichulo... i would be sligthly nervous going back to the UK with a 30k debt

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RAAAY says on May 15, 2008, 14:30:

Well, to put it into perspective, I would also agree with papi. If you are going to do this, don't do it for 3000..........plan it out and do it for 50 times that..........if you're going to get hung for a lamb........you might as well be hung for a sheep.

And you also alluded earlier to a potential issue. None of us knows what will happen with the advances in technolgy and all that , if credit reporting agencies and collection agencies will eventually be a worldwide thing. It may happen in the future that you can be blackened anywhere for a debt in another country.

Also, that 3000. By the time it goes to judgement and collection it will have become a 10,000 debt. That 3000 will be something that will hang over your head forever. You'll have no peace of mind. It's just not worth it.

Now 200,000......that would afford you loads of peace of mind.


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.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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papiChulo says on May 15, 2008, 14:30:

"i would be sligthly nervous going back to the UK with a 30k debt"

user127... "I don't know how many times I have to say it... but I will NOT be going back to the UK"
just kidding you...
anyway if your debt is with the bank I doubt the customs and immigration at Heathrow would have aything to do with your private debt. They have more important/risky people to look for.
If i'm trying to make a point it ani't worth screwing around for the sake of 3K... go big or go home.

the hardest part of life is to live while you're still alive.

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RAAAY says on May 15, 2008, 14:34:

Papi...............an ignored judgement for a debt will eventually lead to a commital order........does'nt matter if it is for 3000 pounds or 300...............and it will be enforced. I've to make a call, but I'll post an interesting story of a good friend of mine, that was followed to the States over 10,000. It was estimated to have cost 200,000 to follow him for it. They knew that.....and still did it.



.later.





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.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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papiChulo says on May 15, 2008, 14:39:

hey raay... yes I see ur point. for 3K I guess i'd even pay it cause the bull shit the bank will put you thru for years.. not worth it to me.

the hardest part of life is to live while you're still alive.

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rjstuff says on May 15, 2008, 14:48:

If you are ethically Ok with stealing money from the bank - no matter how bad they were it to you, doesn't make it right to be bad to them - then it doesn't matter where you want to live or not live. Many people do it by filing for bankruptcy in USA after spending money like there was no tomorrow. I couldn't do it - It wouldn't feel right to cheat someone else even if I had been cheated. I found a twenty dollar bill outside the grocery store and took it back and gave it to the manager (or assistant) - I hoped that the person who lost it may ask them about it and get it back. The loss to someone of $20 is too big for the negligible gain to me of $20 - in my sense of justice, it wouldn't be right and I can never do it. I know of people who boast of having done this in USA (moved to India); in Colombia (moved to USA) - and I couldn't believe their justification for their actions, but then I don't have to worry about their conscience or lack of it.

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RAAAY says on May 15, 2008, 14:54:

rjstuff...........I believe Usher's idea to be based on anger with the bank.........From what I know of him, he is a fine fella, that would'nt even give a thought to screwing anyone over.

Having said that, everything you say is totally right, I just think he is an exception.



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.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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RAAAY says on May 15, 2008, 15:12:

So anyway...this friend of mine.

He had a few restaurants in Ireland. Very high profile, catering to all sorts of celebrities and all that. The Irish people on this board will know who I'm talking about.

His business fails and he does a runner to the States. None of the creditors followed him. Maybe they would have eventually, but he had another little problem first.

He had sold a few paintings that were hanging in one of his leased restaurants. They did'nt really belong to him, but he pocketed 10,000 euro from their sale.

So, he is convicted in his absense, of theft of the paintings. By then, he is in New York and managed to open a trendy cocktail lounge. The place is doing well. He's only open 3 months, when 7 US marshalls barge in one night and arrest him, on foot of an extradition warrant. He is locked up in the Federal detention center in lower Manhattan, for 5 weeks, before being flown, under Irish police escort to Dublin, to answer the charges.

He languishes in Jail in Ireland awaiting trial. Four weeks later the trial begins and lasts for a week in the Irish High Court. He is aquitted, gets off scot free. It was all over the newspapers and the news. He lost his new business in New York.

The story was, the Irish authorties spent 200,000 to bring him back and try him over the 10,000.
They just did'nt like the principal, that someone would feck off and snub their nose at the system.

None of us can be sure, if collection agencies in other parts of the world, will eventually adopt the same attitude. Crystal ball anyone ?


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.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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RAAAY says on May 15, 2008, 15:16:

Waysouth................hee hee...........but for 3000 pounds........noooooooo..........I can understand doing it for something a bit more substantial.




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.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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Atrevido says on May 15, 2008, 15:31:

$3000 is peanuts. If you really want vengence organize an armed bank robbery and skip off to Brazil like Ronnie Biggs.

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RAAAY says on May 15, 2008, 15:34:

Interesting choice of example. Biggs, who was'nt a bank robber, but a train robber, eventually returned to Britain. He was sent to jail on his arrival. He spoke of having lived a miserable existance in Brazil, after the money ran out. He died in Jail.

Usher........I'll come visit you in Wormworth Scrubs.


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.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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morphus says on May 15, 2008, 15:34:

Good idea if you plan on being homeless in Colombia.

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aztec says on May 15, 2008, 16:02:

Why don't you just go into a bank with a gun and rob them. In your mind and some here there is no difference.

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expatriate says on May 15, 2008, 17:57:

According to a bankruptcy attorney I had 25 years ago, if you are considering bankruptcy, you need to start planning at least a year ahead of time.

For example, keep your credit good so that you can apply for and collect lots of credit cards with high limits, and then at the moment of truth, max them all out.

It used to be, in the U.S. anyway, that you could repeat this every seven years.

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Atrevido says on May 15, 2008, 18:37:

Ray I only assigned the part about skipping off to Brazil to Ronnie Biggs not bank robbing. Anyway he seems to have lived well in Brazil for quite a few years before running out of funds and I think usher should follow his example.

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poco says on May 15, 2008, 18:51:

Quote: If I was to... run up a small debt on my UK bank card… let’s say, just max out my overdraft with no intention of paying it back…about $3,000.

What would be the consequences?
======
There isn’t much difference between someone who does this and a person who knowingly keeps the wrong amount of change returned by a waitress.

Anyone,,, like me for instance,, upon hearing this would think you a blithering idiot for selling out and committing what amounts to fraud,, for such a paltry amount of money.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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RAAAY says on May 15, 2008, 19:00:

Atrevido....I knew what you meant.........I just could'nt resist the temptation to impress people, with my obvious vast store of knowledge and details. I'm sure the readers had loads of ooooo's and aaaaa's........Ray's a f**kin genuis.

Usher will have a much improved lifestyle here, on the 3000 pounds he's talking of making off with. Bigg's had millions, I think, or at least it would have been equivelant to millions in today's terms. He talked of missing his homeland terribly, after a while.

Usher is emphatic, that he never wants to go back to Limey land. What he can't know is, he might change his mind next month. 3000 pounds is not worth it.


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.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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tejasmarcos says on May 15, 2008, 19:22:

"Anyone,,, like me for instance,, upon hearing this would think you a blithering idiot for selling out and committing what amounts to fraud,, for such a paltry amount of money."

what would your suggestion be poco?

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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usher127 says on May 15, 2008, 19:30:

well... I never said I wouldnt return to the uk for the odd visit... that's the point... if I take 3,000 theyre not going to lock me up... so.. my overdraft got out of hand... big deal...

If I max out on credit cards to the tune of 30k.. I think that is very different...

So... this is very different from walking into a bank with a gun.. very

And WaySouthofBorder... got it spot on... this is not about needing the money... this is my way of saying fuck you... you treat me like a twat... and threaten to fine me... if I dare to sneeze in you presence... i'm done... and actually now... i'm the one pulling the strings... as I said before... I could go to court and win the same amount of money... but i've lost patience....

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calipro says on May 15, 2008, 23:03:

I knew a guy that had a million dollar civil judgement against him in the States and lived very comfortably in Cali.

U.S. civil judgements are virtually unenforcable in Colombia.

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goin_south says on May 15, 2008, 23:12:

'hypothetically'? Simon?.... I think you're up to something.
Let's send the police after him now! jaj

Where do we go from here?

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Peter (Moderator) says on May 15, 2008, 23:46:

When I was in Brazil, Biggs was charging 500$ for interviews, trying to make some extra money.

Poor but snappy

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badboy says on May 16, 2008, 09:28:

Here's a broad overview:

"Article 693 of the Civil Procedure Code provides that a foreign judgment is enforceable in Colombia in accordance with the terms specified by treaty or, in the absence of a treaty, on the same terms given to Colombian judgments by the country in which such foreign judgment was rendered. Article 694 specifies seven prerequisites for enforcing a judgment: (1) that it does not implicate real property interests in goods located in Colombia; (2) that it is not contrary to Colombian laws reflecting public policy (orden público); (3) that it complies with the foreign country's formalities of execution, authentication and legalization; (4) that it does not concern a matter within the exclusive jurisdiction of the Colombian courts; (5) that its subject matter is not involved in any current proceeding or judgment in Colombia; (6) that the judgment debtor has received the notice and opportunity to contest the claim required by the country of origin; and (7) that the complainant complies with the procedural requirements of Article 695 for seeking exequátur".

Note the last word: "EXEQUATUR".

This basically mean they would have to sue you again in Colombia and get a judgment according to Colombian process. Would never even be attempted unless a huge amount of money was owed or was a very high profile person and set of circumstances.

Rest easy.

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miamimike says on May 16, 2008, 09:42:

Just saw this Tidbit of news in my hometown newspaper, maybe they(starbirds) should have headed south of the Border with the stash! LOL

Bank wants Altoona couple to repay $280,000 deposit error

Published: May 16. 2008 6:39AM


""""HOLLIDAYSBURG, Pa. (AP) -- First Commonwealth Bank is suing a retired Altoona couple claiming they have withdrawn most of more than $280,000 mistakenly deposited into their account.

The lawsuit says Herbert and Becky Starbird have "withdrawn or depleted" more than $177,000 of the money deposited in October. The bank says the mistake wasn't discovered until Feb. 5.

The couple's attorney, Thomas Dickey, says the couple isn't to blame, although they are trying to arrange to repay the money.

Dickey says Herbert Starbird repeatedly told the bank the deposit was a mistake but that bank employees insisted the deposit was proper. The bank says it was not informed of the mistake.

Dickey says the couple eventually started spending the money after the bank insisted it was theirs.""""

My Avatar-- Sarah Palin Says " "You know the difference between a pit bull and a hockey mom?? Lipstick!" Now on a Short Verbal Tether by the Honorable John McCain

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badboy says on May 16, 2008, 10:28:

"If they knew my address in Colombia… would they ever be able to sell the debt to a Colombian debt collector"?

Extremely unlikely-but if they did and somehow garnished or attached your assets it would be illegal prior to them going through exequátur. If the assets are in a UK bank then that's a different story. if the assets are in a Colombian bank, you could get a release of assets if no exequátur process has occurred. They're not going to do this for the amount you're talking about.

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slguy says on May 16, 2008, 11:51:

usher, since your plan is motivated by desire to punish the bank, not profit personnally - i assume you'll be donating the 3,000 to charity? ;)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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aztec says on May 16, 2008, 12:15:

Theft (also known as stealing) is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent.


Crook - someone who has committed a crime or has been legally convicted of a crime.

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badboy says on May 16, 2008, 13:21:

Procedural steps necessary to enforce a foreign judgment in the Colombian
Courts

"For the exequatur to take place in Colombia the judgment or arbitration award must be
submitted by the interested party before the Civil Chamber of the Colombian Supreme
Court of Justice. The party against whom the judgment or arbitration award was granted
must be called to the proceedings.
If the judgment or arbitration award is not worded in Spanish, an official translation
must be presented, duly authenticated and legalized.
By virtue of the provisions in Articles 693 and 694 of CPC, the exequatur procedure
seeks to establish whether or not the foreign judgment or arbitration award can be
enforced in Colombia. According to decision T-716/1996 issued by the Colombian
Constitutional Court
“the petitioner only has to demonstrate the existence either, of a
diplomatic or a legal reciprocity between Colombia and the foreign
country. (…) If the foreign judgment accomplishes these requirements and
those established in Article 694 of the CPC the exequatur must be
approved by the Court�.
Therefore, the task of the Colombian Supreme Court is to determine whether or not the
foreign judgment or arbitration award meets the requirements of the Civil Procedure
Code. The Supreme Court does not have authority to review the substantial part of the
foreign judgment or arbitration award. Hence, the review by the Supreme Court is
focused on procedural issues and it will not interfere with the substantial decisions
adopted by the foreign judge or arbitrators. As a result, the decision and the costs
awarded by the foreign court will remain as ruled by that court or arbitrators.
The Supreme Court reviews the fulfillment of the above mentioned conditions and
declares a term for the parties to request evidence.
Once the parties have requested the evidence the Supreme Court will order the necessary
procedures to obtain the evidence requested.

Subsequently, the parties present their final arguments. Thereafter the Supreme Court
will determine if it grants or denies the exequatur.

Once the exequatur has been granted, the plaintiff must seek enforcement of the
judgment through the executive proceeding contemplated by Colombian law".

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usher127 says on May 16, 2008, 14:59:

Well.. slguy... the motivation is definately to punish the bank... so much so... i'm tempted to take the money and then tell them why i have taken it...

But, why not keep it... it's owed to me... as i said before...

Hmm

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RAAAY says on May 16, 2008, 15:02:

Usher...........whatever the reasons..........do what you think is best. Myself and Catfish will be holding court later in the Scotish bar. Why don't you take a spin over. Bring that credit card with you. We'll help you make a dent into the 3000.

And as our renowned troll, waydownsouth says, f*** the bank.

Sometime around 8.

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.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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dwr says on May 16, 2008, 15:32:

They would never find you. In fact, in 7 years or so, they will probably give you another credit card.

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usher127 says on May 16, 2008, 15:34:

I might well be there Raay... don't bank on the card though...

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slguy says on May 16, 2008, 15:45:

i don't know, usher...thirsty friends are a pretty good charity. ;)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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nueva york bombero says on May 16, 2008, 15:47:

I'd love to liquidate my assets, run my credit cards to the max, borrow from every bookmaker and drug dealer in town and just scatter to Colombia.
It's a fantasy living like a fugitive.
If I was caught up in some kind of crime here in the states I might.......
But not likely.....

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