Deaths of Union workers

romy says on Apr 21, 2008, 15:11:

Numbers are up to 22 so far this year, which is an increase from the same time last year.

jh816 says on Apr 21, 2008, 16:29:

Yeah, government must not be doing anything. If 22 is a 77% increase from last year, then only 13 were killed last year.

Compare this to the years before Uribe's government came to power and tell me nothing is being done.

slguy says on Apr 21, 2008, 16:36:

attaboy, jh.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

romy says on Apr 21, 2008, 16:41:

"and tell me nothing is being done"
who said that?
that person is wrong, something is being done... just not enough

slguy says on Apr 21, 2008, 16:52:

http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/post/colombian-union-members-are-kill...

this thread covers the topic pretty well - unless one just chooses to see an empty glass w/ regard to uribe, no matter what the facts say.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

romy says on Apr 21, 2008, 17:14:

what facts?
you mean the "there's a greater (proportional) number of homicides in the Colombian population as a whole than in union workers" argument. I'm sorry but that has been disvalidated and thus why it's not in Uribe's rhetoric.

As far as I'm concerned, the important fact is that this year there have been 22 union workers murdered and that is 22 too many.

I don't believe I choose "to see an empty glass w/ regard to uribe, no matter what the facts say". I actually praised one of his new policies today here on pbh (though I have no clue how involved he was in this).

SiV says on Apr 21, 2008, 18:27:

I wonder now the door's closed on the TLC, if Uribe will slacken off on sindicalista protection even more. If the govt. were not willing to put a stop to it when their interests were at stake, will they be bothered to sustain protection til the next opportunity?

Stultórum númere infinitum est.

slguy says on Apr 21, 2008, 19:18:

"As far as I'm concerned, the important fact is that this year there have been 22 union workers murdered and that is 22 too many"

22 murders of ANY people is too many. why pick and choose their labor affiliations?

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

slguy says on Apr 21, 2008, 19:31:

" I'm sorry but that has been disvalidated and thus why it's not in Uribe's rhetoric."

discredited how, exactly? unless the numbers are misreported, i don't see how...

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

romy says on Apr 21, 2008, 20:31:

for simplicity's sake (which you enjoy) the statistics (though they may be 100% accurate) are skewed, violence in Colombia is concentrated in rural areas, union workers are concentrated in urban areas. Of course there's plenty of other factors that go into the argument but there's no point in going into these.
also, of course ANY murders are unacceptable, my comment was specific to the issue at stake in this post.

slguy says on Apr 21, 2008, 22:31:

your logic escapes me - how in hell does city/rural matter statistically, on a national statistic? or are there two colombias now - the one you use to support your conclusions, then the real one?

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

droble77 says on Apr 21, 2008, 22:35:

LOL, I'm sure most union organizers are really comforted by the official statistics! ;)

slguy says on Apr 21, 2008, 22:45:

maybe they should be.

honest to god, you guys talk like being a union member is an automatic death sentence. with hundreds of thousands of union members, 22 deaths isn't a huge number, although obviously any murder is tragic. and i haven't seen any data indicating how many of these deaths could reliably be credited to the victim's union activities.

cops here love to call murders "drug related" if they happen in poor neighborhoods...doesn't make it true, necessarily.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

poco says on Apr 21, 2008, 23:13:

Quote: that person is wrong, something is being done... just not enough.

If trade unionists are murdered and this results in NO FTA and a weakening in U.S. relations,, then,, they will be killed.

Does anyone think the FARC want Colombia / U.S. trade? of course not.

Displaying compassion, fairness, ethical values etc.,, especially in a stranger, is a SIGN OF WEAKNESS to most Colombians.

Not acting on the FTA has the effect of providing encouragement to those opposed to the current government,, note,,, not the people running the government,, the system.

"Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

romy says on Apr 22, 2008, 00:56:

slguy- An understanding of statistics can help you understand how stats can be skewed when there are disproportions that are not properly accounted for, and very dangerously misinterpretations of statistics can happen.

Considering it's monday night and not much to do in this snow covered land I had little fun with this. Please don't be insulted as I don't mean to be patronizing, I merely wanted to humor myself and in the process you can see how statistics can appear to be one thing but mean another.
WARNING, the stats as the characters of this analogy are not real, this is merely a demonstration of number play.

so I give you,


The Bunny Farm:
Ok, let’s forget about union workers and speak about bunnies. So there are 150 bunnies at the bunny farm. Turns out there are 30 grey bunnies and 120 white bunnies. Grey bunnies like to reside close to the barn because there they get less sun (which hurts their ability to eat), so 25 of the grey bunnies live close to the barn. White bunnies aren’t really particular about the sun but living closer to the barn means more access to food and they get protection from the farmer so it turns out 70 white bunnies live close to the barn. Not everyone can live close to the barn as there is still plenty of food away from the barn, and places are limited close to the barn (it seems it's required that some bunnies live away from the barn).

However, not all is fun and games at the bunny farm.

1.There’s this mean pack of wolves that lurks around the farm and they don’t really care what bunnies they kill, however the farmer does his best to protect his bunnies and is most effective at protecting those that live closer to the barn, anyways it turns out the wolves kill 42 bunnies. The wolves kill 30/50 white bunnies that live away from the barn, 1/5 grey bunnies that live away from the barn, 1/25 grey bunnies that live close to the barn, and 10/70 white bunnies that live close to the barn.

2. There’s also these sneaky foxes that have their way around the farmer, so the foxes really relish from the bunnies around the barn, and it turns out foxes really like the taste of grey fur, though sometimes since white bunnies are easier to fin they’ll settle for those. Foxes manage to kill 18 bunnies. They kill 0/5 grey bunnies that live away from the barn, 8/25 grey bunnies that live close to the barn, 5/50 white bunnies that live away from the barn, and 5/70 bunnies that live close to the barn.

*1. So, what’s the result? 60/150 (40%) bunnies were killed :(. 50/120 (42%) white bunnies were killed. 10/30 (33%) grey bunnies were killed. Close to the barn 24/95 (25%) bunnies were killed. Away from the barn 36/55 (65%) bunnies were killed.

*2. What if you look at the bunnies that live close to the barn that are supposedly protected by the farmer? 9/25 (36%) of the grey bunnies are killed. While 15/70 (21%) of the white bunnies are killed.

*3. Also important to note, 2/10 (20%) of the grey bunnies killed were killed indiscriminately by the ravage wolves. While 8/10 (80%) of the grey bunnies killed were killed discriminately by the sneaky foxes.

**1. So it seems that while a bunny is more likely to be killed by a wolf (42/150) than a fox (18/150). And overall more (and in greater proportion) white bunnies are killed. It also appears that grey bunnies because of their circumstances are forced to live close to the barn, unfortunately the farmer is not able to keep the foxes that feast on them away.

*-*. So if you had the choice would you be a grey bunny? Or a white bunny?
Remember that unfortunately we can’t all be white bunnies that live close to the barn. And if you choose to be a white bunny you might have to live away from the barn in order to eat.

Note: Grey bunnies are union members and white bunnies are non-union members. The farmer is el presidente. Wolves are meant to represent the armed conflict as a single force for the sake of simplicity. While foxes are meant to represent those that target labour unions.

slguy says on Apr 22, 2008, 08:18:

wow! i'm impressed! :)

if only i could believe that the lower mortality rate close to the barn was truly due to the farmer's protection, you'd be on to something here! i just don't see that a farmer offers much protection, even inside the barn, relatively speaking.

but - i could be wrong.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

SiV says on Apr 22, 2008, 15:52:

Interesting analogy!

Stultórum númere infinitum est.

cali373 says on Apr 23, 2008, 12:03:

For those that like to think of human lives in the form of numbers, like when less union workers have been killed than in previous years. Well since it is human lives why dont we think about it this: lets say we have 2 grandmothers (like most of us) and one gets killed by thugs and the police decide that other things are more important than investigating the murder, Well at least you still have the other one.

Somehow that just doesn't seem right, does it?

Smile if you are a thinker!

cali373 says on Apr 23, 2008, 12:04:

AFL-CIO Files Complaint Against Guatemala Over Union Violence

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=alcuAvbGzFnU

Smile if you are a thinker!

azunoman says on Apr 23, 2008, 20:02:

I always get a kick that somehow we in the US have no history of union deaths.....still haven't found Hoffa....countless others were found across the US murdered found stuffed in a trunk, car burned....crap...

AFL-CIO are hypocrites for making anyone feel they don't have a sorted history.

Ready, Fire, Aim

poco says on Apr 23, 2008, 20:16:

Union Safety,, vrs. bunnies,, the statistics are,,,

Virtually 100% of the bunnies in Colombia during 2007 were killed and eaten.

A Colombian union member in 2007 was eight times less likely to be killed than the general population.

"Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

SiV says on Apr 24, 2008, 07:01:

Altogether now, sing along: "Poco, that's crap, and you know it is! That's crap and you it is. . .!" (Repeat until fade out).

Stultórum númere infinitum est.

poco says on Apr 24, 2008, 09:22:

Siv Quote: Altogether now, sing along: "Poco, that's crap, and you know it is! That's crap and you it is. . .!" (Repeat until fade out).

Ok,,, I must admit,, some bunnies are kept as pets,, but someday,, they will be so fat,, the temptation to eat them will prevail.

"Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

romy says on Apr 25, 2008, 00:33:

http://actualidad.terra.es/nacional/articulo/sindicato_colombiano_denu...
Sindicato colombiano denuncia el intento de asesinato de su líder

La Unión Sindical Obrera (USO), sindicato petrolero de Colombia, denunció hoy el intento de asesinato de su líder, Jorge Enrique Gamboa, y responsabilizó a la Policía y al Gobierno de 'fraguar' crímenes contra dirigentes sindicales.

Un comunicado de la USO detalla que Gamboa se encontraba el miércoles en la localidad de Yarima, en el centro norte de Colombia, para expresar a trabajadores petroleros, mineros y agrícolas la solidaridad ante una huelga de éstos en demanda de mejoras salariales.

La denuncia relata que 'dos sicarios se le acercaron al presidente Jorge Gamboa, uno esgrime un arma' pero, gracias al apoyo de la comunidad, se logró 'impedir que éste asesinara al compañero'.

El mismo Gamboa entregó el arma a un alto mando policial de la zona, y 'posteriormente una patrulla de la policía escolta a los sicarios tranquilamente como si no hubiese sucedido nada, sacándolos hasta la vía Troncal del Magdalena Medio, donde éstos abordan una moto particular que los esperaba', añade la USO.

El sindicato 'responsabiliza a la policía nacional y al Gobierno de Alvaro Uribe de estar fraguando asesinatos contra dirigentes sindicales e igualmente de cualquier acción contra la comunidad de Yarima que participa y realiza el paro'.

En lo que va de año han sido asesinados en distintas regiones colombianas 22 sindicalistas.

Las principales centrales obreras consideran que los sindicalistas carecen de protección, situación que ha contribuido a que el Tratado de Libre Comercio (TLC) firmado por Colombia y Estados Unidos esté hoy en el 'congelador', tras ser aprobado pero no ratificado por el Congreso estadounidense.

Los trabajadores aglutinados en la USO exigen que 'se investiguen los hechos denunciados y se castigue ejemplarmente' a los responsables.