Death (Almost) Hits Home in Medellin

usher127 says on Nov 18, 2007, 20:00:

Which neighborhood?

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Alma del Norte says on Nov 18, 2007, 20:08:

That's a universal feeling; whether Medellin, London, Manchester or Liverpool, (my experiences) - that somehow they brought it on themselves and, "it's nothing to do with us". Tis true, and... business is business. These things can't be sorted by recourse to the law.

La vida es una rutina

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Robert Jorge says on Nov 18, 2007, 20:15:

Pretty wild. Glad your friends are OK. Cool picture too. The old Renault, typical estrato 2 tiendas, awning built over the street, person feeding a young cow (bull - it's a male actually), small street repair left unfinished, 125 cc moto and a probably 80cc moto under the awning, that is Colombia!

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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miamimike says on Nov 18, 2007, 20:26:

Not far from Fresh Milk I see,,,

The Crime scene sounds like good ol' Miami!

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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Buongone says on Nov 18, 2007, 20:26:

My Novia in Cali has this little sori-sori store next to her aunt's apartments. I've bought cervesa'a there. They have a few tables out front. One day some dude's pull up in a limo. Jump out, and shoot some guy. Jump back in the limo and speed off. Turns out they "Hit" the wrong guy. Store shuts down for about a week. Owner leaves town. New guy opens up. And it's business as usual. Shit Happens !! Words of advice, Don't be in the middle of the shit, when it happens.

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static says on Nov 18, 2007, 21:23:

"The place next door where the guy is feeding the cow is the scene of the crime."

I suspect the cow was somehow involved. Probably had a grudge.

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john_stark says on Nov 18, 2007, 22:27:

What gets me is you sound surprised by the whole thing. How could anyone get killed right where you've been drinking. Imaginate. Better get used to it. If they had markers in Medellin where someone got killed the entire city would be filled with markers.

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Robert Jorge says on Nov 18, 2007, 22:37:

Sad, creepy, and unfortunately true (what JS said).

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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christobeldawg says on Nov 18, 2007, 22:42:

not to discount the former murder capital of the world Medellin but by those standards we could rope off all of the developed world. Every few feet or so, someone has been killed.

admittedly, arriving can feel great too

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love2colombia says on Nov 18, 2007, 22:43:

The getos of medellin are dangerous very dangerous...

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Lisa Zee says on Nov 18, 2007, 22:46:

There are stars in the street where people get killed, and not just killed violently. I did not see any, maybe because I did no go to down town.

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christobeldawg says on Nov 18, 2007, 22:46:

dude you look pretty dangerous yourself.

admittedly, arriving can feel great too

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john_stark says on Nov 18, 2007, 22:56:

Murder in Medellin is a fact of life.

11/05/2007 to 11/11/2007 12 homicides.
10/29/2007 to 11/04/2007 18 homicides including 3 in Poblado.
10/22/2007 to 10/28/2007 9 homicides including 1 in Poblado.
10/16/2007 to 10/21/2007 10 homicides.
10/08/2007 to 10/15/2007 14 homicides including 1 in Poblado.

So it goes.

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MitchAlvarez says on Nov 18, 2007, 22:57:

what nieghborhood is this?

"Ingrid callate la jeta!! Stay in France"

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Lisa Zee says on Nov 18, 2007, 23:01:

Uyyy que miedo, no quiero vivir en El Poblado nunca, muy peligroso!

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Medellin Traveler says on Nov 19, 2007, 03:30:

The neighborhood is called "El Porvenier" it's an estrato 2 barrio in Itagui.

john starks, I'm not suprised at all. Just was shook up as things unfolded, praying it wasn't somoene in the family or one of their neighborhood friends. I know that everyone looks out for each other in this barrio. I walk up the hillside my myself, and people who I've never met, direct me in the right direction when I get lost, even without me asking, some young teens knew where I was going.

"Pretty wild. Glad your friends are OK. Cool picture too. The old Renault, typical estrato 2 tiendas, awning built over the street, person feeding a young cow (bull - it's a male actually), small street repair left unfinished, 125 cc moto and a probably 80cc moto under the awning, that is Colombia!" - Robert Jorge

Wow! You are a very perecptive individual. I could use a guy like you in Medellin :)

The main reason I'm glad that it wasn't a random act of violence is that it provides some comfort knowing that, as they say, "the guy had it coming." If you don't get yourself in the position of getting yourself killed, than you probably won't get yourself killed as easilly.

Murder and most violent crimes are brought together, not by complete strangers, but by people you know.

"The getos of medellin are dangerous very dangerous..." - Love2Colombia

The WORLD is a dangerous place.

The dead men where not from the area. They suspect that the intended victim was trying to hide out, maybe thinking it would be safer to head somewhere outside of his normal stomping grounds.

For the most part, everyone I have met in this Estrato2 neighborhoods is kind and protective of the neighborhoods residents. The streets are always filled with children during the day, and on Friday and Saturday nights.

People get killed all the time, that's no surprise to me.

Again, keep safe y'all.

"Huevos Rancheros en Medellin, No Quiero Taco Bell." - www.medellintraveler.com

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dwmte7 says on Nov 19, 2007, 03:55:

your comment that 'nobody saw anything' or what i experienced, 'what shooting?' it'salways that way. no crime scene investigation...never. and nobody ever sees anything.

i was down town below the metro at a tiny watch repair shop with my secretary (about 1990) when i looked across the street and saw this barefoot old man in torn cloths, walking along the sidewalk. in that moment, a young guy on a moto drives up and shoots the guy 4 or 5 times. the power of the shots literally picked the guy up and blew him against a brick wall.

then the kid on the bike just casually drives off. who could have possibly had a contract on this street beggar? or was it just some young sicario earning points, practicing, or what?

when the police came, nobody saw anything. i piped up, and said to my secretary, they're all lying, they saw it just like me. she told me, shut the hell up or you might be next.

another time, appx same era. we were in mass in the church where we were married in envigado, santa barbara...a very small adobe church, and it was at the time of the 'celebration of the euchirist when all of a suddeen...right out side the door on the side where my wife, sisters and parents were...POW POW POW. somebody shot this kid right outside the door of the church. the priest didn't even stop the service, he just continued, while all the women inside and outside the door are crying, shreeking and screaming. all chaos was alive.

and the third time i was abreast of a killing, i was in barrio triste buying lumber and some body walks up and kills one of the old men who schlep the logs around. no shoes, no shirt and torn pants. these old guys just get a place to sleep and something to eat. my suegro freaked out as did my cunado...life in medellin. of course, with hundreds of men crowded everywhere, nobody saw anything.

dwmte

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Rob77 says on Nov 19, 2007, 04:01:

Same thing happened to me recently. I was talking to a friend in a Cafe Internet in Valle, when she suddenly said, "they just killed someone in front of the door here!" The police showed up, shut down everything and interrogated each person very briefly.

It was frightening for her to witness a death, despite the fact that there is at least one murder a day where she lives. It touches you more when you witness it. And being connected with the person at the time, you feel some of the emotions they experience.

It is still very hard to live in Colombia for long without violence touching you directly or indirectly.

BOYCOTT CITGO - CHAVEZ SUCKS!!!

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morphus says on Nov 19, 2007, 04:38:

Homicides in Poblado don't count because thats not real medellin.

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morphus says on Nov 19, 2007, 04:46:

"The main reason I'm glad that it wasn't a random act of violence is that it provides some comfort knowing that, as they say, "the guy had it coming.""

Like Andres Escobar. He was killed because of a soccer game. He scored a goal that brought great gambling losses to several drug lords. He had it coming.

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dwmte7 says on Nov 19, 2007, 05:04:

makes us re-take some of the posts that say some of us are 'dooms-day soothsayers' when we warn the first time travellers to colombia of the dangers that lurk everywhere. without saying that medellin/colombia is a place to avoid for the dangers, i/we who have known colombia over the years cannot but speak the truth. be wise, be careful, be alert, don't be foolish...get to know the culture and your surroundings before wandering off and out in an overly cavelier fashion. all of this can help keep you from being permanently dead. and trust me, that's the worst dead of all. be safe.

dwmte

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kalder says on Nov 19, 2007, 05:22:

"These things can't be sorted by recourse to the law".

Alma, they can and should be in the UK though. They're not because the political will to do so is lacking.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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Chelesupercono says on Nov 19, 2007, 06:12:

GIB......That is the gospel truth......

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

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morphus says on Nov 19, 2007, 06:31:

Colombians are ready to shoot. It could be over anything.

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john_stark says on Nov 19, 2007, 07:01:

Keep telling yourself it happens everywhere. That's the only way you'll get through it. You quiz the average gringo and ask him how many people he knows who were murdered. Most will say none. Your average Colombian will be able to list at least 20 and maybe a 100.

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usher127 says on Nov 19, 2007, 07:14:

errr... if that were true... almost all Colombians would be dead by the end of the week...

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dwmte7 says on Nov 19, 2007, 09:23:

it can happen REAL close to home...in fact it can happen AT HOME.

when my wife and i were separated and i was living in llano in my bar, i called one evening to her folk's house and stella answered and said in almost a whisper....'can't talk now, they're having a novena for carlos (her brother)' a novena? what? what happened to carlos? then she hung up. well that weekend she and our daughter came up the hill and i asked, what happened to carlos, to which she replied... i don't know anything about that. (right!, your brother gets dead and you don't know anything) my young daughter--about 6 at the time-- pipes in, 'daddy, quatro muchachos en motos vieny a la casa y matar carlos'

wow, a hit! well carlos was a street kind of guy and spent half of his life in one kind of trouble or another. he used to be my espalda when i had to go to triste or nikitau. but now, because maybe he was hookin up with somebody's old lady or screwed some kind of deal, he got real dead. GOD rest his soul.

so, once again, brother's and sisters, colombia ain't a city park and dead can happen to you. be real smart--as opposed to dumb--be careful, don't offend and watch your ass. know where you're going, who you're going with and know what you plan on doing when you get there. be safe, not sorry. nuff said.

thanks, GIB

dwmte

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morphus says on Nov 19, 2007, 09:46:

Getting killed over a girl is common. A guy I know in Medellin had a cousin that was dating a girl. She did'nt tell him she had a boyfriend and he ended up getting killed.

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kalder says on Nov 19, 2007, 09:52:

A woman is the last thing I'd kill anyone over.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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billyb says on Nov 19, 2007, 10:34:

Now a good horse is a different matter :))

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love2colombia says on Nov 19, 2007, 10:38:

"Homicides in Poblado don't count because thats not real Medellín."

morphus, ese comentario es absurdo, la riqueza es tan representativa de Colombia como lo es la pobreza.

¿Crees que los ricos de Colombia son menos Colombianos que los pobres?

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morphus says on Nov 19, 2007, 10:53:

Si...aprendi eso en PBH. Debes preguntar John_Stark. El te dira es verdad.

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Morrongo says on Nov 19, 2007, 11:11:

morphus and J S comments are correct about types of murders and the effects on locals.......on another note, went to a club the other night and a stupid idiot of a gringo decided to blow a kiss to my Colombian friends girlfriend....this type of rule you never break if you are a wise man..fortunately for him, he didnt see it and nobody was going to pass comment either ..the guy had a very lucky break

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Colombiche says on Nov 19, 2007, 11:39:

"Keep telling yourself it happens everywhere. That's the only way you'll get through it. You quiz the average gringo and ask him how many people he knows who were murdered. Most will say none. Your average Colombian will be able to list at least 20 and maybe a 100." Johh Stark

I have had a few family members killed in Colombia but for everyone that got killed there are a hundred that lived so I guess life prevails.

I saw a guy get killed here in Toronto, machete to the head right on the school steps.I also saw a stabbing 3 meters from where I was standing. I ended up taking the guy to the ER myself, he had a knife in his eye.

Welcome to the real world, it's a pretty rough place.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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droble77 says on Nov 19, 2007, 12:42:

Well I don't know 20 people who got murdered but I do know at least one. Lived on my floor, kid got stabbed in some fight/argument over a girl. But I'm sure the places I hang out in NYC are far safer than pretty much anywhere in Colombia, I'm not here to whitewash or "defend" anything!

MT, I know the phrase "they had it coming" sounds very cold but it's probably true. 98% of the people in Colombia are good, decent people; the problem is the other 2%. And part of that 2% is downright EVIL, people who will kill for a tawdry sum of COP, or just for shits and giggles. They are the escoria of Colombia and they are what keeps the country down. The less of them around, the better for Colombia.

I'll bet those guys that got killed had probably done a hit job or two in the past themselves. You know the saying, live by the sword. . .

As always, enjoy Colombia, but try to keep a low profile, live simply, and try not to piss anyone off. :0)

GIB is right about not getting involved in stuff that you see on the streets, but then he lost me when he went on his "gringo is never right" rant. The reason to not get involved is much more simple and straightforward: this is not your country and the culture works different.

So better to tread lightly because you might end up making a bad situation EVEN WORSE!! A lot of gringos are well-intentioned, but they don't realize this. . .

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webmanco says on Nov 19, 2007, 12:42:

In Colombia more persons (including me) are willing to help in cases where people are being robbed, but sometimes helping can backfire.

Nobody needs to play hero, lack of jobs and social inversion is to blame.

http://www.eltiempo.com/bogota/2007-11-16/ARTICULO-WEB-NOTA_INTERIOR-3...

Noviembre 15 de 2007

Comerciante de 61 años murió al tratar de ayudar a una mujer que estaba siendo atracada

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

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manINred says on Nov 19, 2007, 12:44:

Yeah true, but Toronto is not as rough as Medellin, not by a long shot, not even the ghetto jungle!

In Medellin this sort of thing occurred more than I was used to anywhere else in the world. Last time i was there there was a gun battle on the street and the cops were chasing some dude who had been shooting someone. Another time I would come home and find a couple of policemen and a crowd in front of my apartment with a dead dude out front. A friend of mine had his leg mangled a month or two ago as the dude in front of him was assassinated. The list goes on, and people get on with it. In fact when I think of it, it's surprising the amount of shit that went on, but I got acustomed to not being surprised. Transplant myself to Toronto (or Montreal) and see the same stuff happen, different story, it would become a national crisis.

For those who live in Medellin, they just learn to get on with their life.

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manINred says on Nov 19, 2007, 12:48:

Which is also why, when people who go to Poblado to party and live in hostals proclaim that Medellin is just as safe as 'back home' I get annoyed with such patently untrue ignorance. Medellin is not at all a city where one can go about with such mentality. It is a gorgeous city with a lot going on, but has many socio-economic problems to fix.

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Colombiche says on Nov 19, 2007, 13:20:

It shocks people that are not accustomed to it, but when you grow up there it's part of life.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Man Tequila says on Nov 19, 2007, 14:17:

I'm with Man In Red. There are many more stabs and gunshot wounds, even in small-town Canada, then you would guess. But Medellin is worlds away from Toronto. "They had it coming" is a mechanism for dealing with the fear; for reducing it -- if it is not random, it might not happen to you. Nice to see you check in, GIB.

.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Lowell says on Nov 19, 2007, 15:39:

The company one keeps can have a big effect on a lifespan. I just don't think that many people are randomly shot. For sport, yuks or whatever.

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

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john_stark says on Nov 19, 2007, 18:54:

"The company one keeps can have a big effect on a lifespan. I just don't think that many people are randomly shot. For sport, yuks or whatever."

I'd love to say that all the sicarios are professionals who, like the Mounties, always get their man. Unfortunately they sometimes miss and kill innocent bystanders or people who happened to be in the same type of car as the one they were looking for. A lot of victims are people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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Medellin Traveler says on Nov 19, 2007, 19:07:

So just to update you guys.

I was chatting with several of my friends in the barrio where all this went down last night and not one of them brought up the incident. I tried my darnest to lead them into a conversation regarding the two dead men in front of the family and friends stores, and NOTHING. They would not bite, as if it never happened.

Here's a few questions I used to bait them into talking..

How are you doing?
"Good."

How's everyone doing today?
"Good, thank God."

Everything OK?
"Yes. Thank God."

How's everything downstairs? (they live up in the hillside, the store is at the bottom of the hill)
"Good."

Everything OK at the store?
"Yes. It's all good."

Oh yeah, the "que mas?" also ends almost every reply.

I gave up. I chatted with several people online and nothing, from anyone. The kid were playing and laughing in the background. The women were busy chatting about things women chat about. Overall, I was online with them for about two hours with no success trying to get them into giving me at least an update.

I don't know why but I was thinking about this line we used to tell the cops when we were young shorties in the 'hood.

Cop. "You boys stay out of trouble."

Us, "How could we, we're troublemakers."

The cops just gave up on us and drove away.

The company you keep will definitely get you in a world of shit, a hero ain't nothin' but a sandwhich, and try not to be at the wrong place at the wrong time, stay safe out there.

Two Dead On Street In Medellin.... nothing new, from what it seems. Life goes on...

"Huevos Rancheros en Medellin, No Quiero Taco Bell." - www.medellintraveler.com

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webmanco says on Nov 19, 2007, 19:16:

An easy anwer to why those guys were killed,would be, they used to ask too many questions.

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

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christobeldawg says on Nov 19, 2007, 19:25:

no more questions MT, we don't wanna lose ya friend

admittedly, arriving can feel great too

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billyb says on Nov 19, 2007, 21:27:

"I'd love to say that all the sicarios are professionals who, like the Mounties, always get their man"

Like that poor Polish guy waiting for his mom that they tazed to death at the airport this week?

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msaucey says on Nov 19, 2007, 22:05:

Sadly, death at the hands of others is no longer a sensitive issue.... People, especially in Colombia and more so in Medellin, that probably dealt with some of the hardest years, are numb to violence.... Keep your nose clean and keep to yourself and you should be fine... See no evil, hear no evil, know no evil....

It's harder for some of us to understand this concept.... We all live in a country where justice must be served... It just depends on how it's served that is justifiable....

Unfortunately, there are also a lot of innocent victims that killed in the midst of the world going on around them.... Wrong place or time....

GIB.... You did do the right thing by not getting involved....

The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. - CS Lewis

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morphus says on Nov 20, 2007, 06:24:

GIB, why would anybody threaten you?

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 20, 2007, 07:12:

I'm so sick of the "They had it coming" response to people being gunned down in cold blood. Even in this specific story, they're saying that one guy was the object of the hit and the other was just unlucky. Yet he was somehow to blame, I guess. Colombians are so quick to go to "they had it coming".

I have a Colombian family I count among my closest friends in Bogota who suffered from the tragic killing of one of their kids. It was truly a stupid accident, caused by a nervous and twitchy young man with a gun who probably didn't even intend to kill. Yet even then, a lot of people were saying that the victim had it coming, simply by virtue of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Screw that.

It is simply a defensive mechanism common in people who live in places with so much violence. It's understandable that you want to make sense of it in a way that someone renders you immune to being the next one. But it just doesn't work that way.

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Medellin Traveler says on Nov 20, 2007, 07:18:

"It is simply a defensive mechanism common in people who live in places with so much violence. It's understandable that you want to make sense of it in a way that someone renders you immune to being the next one. But it just doesn't work that way." Mr Hollywood

Yes. It is unfortunetely that this is the way it is, but it's probably the only way they know which will allow them to continue on with their lives. As sad as it may be, they see no other choice.

It's COLOMBIA!!

"Huevos Rancheros en Medellin, No Quiero Taco Bell." - www.medellintraveler.com

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Nov 20, 2007, 07:22:

Usually in Colombia areas of estrato 1 2, even 3 have this kind of murderers, and usually it's a revenge or the guys were in dogie business.

Funny enough in Villavo there is an area called Porvenir and it's estrato 1 and 2, and nearly every week there is a murder, but that area is full of thieves, paras, you name it

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Robert Jorge says on Nov 20, 2007, 08:33:

Is that the area of Villavo directly southeast of centro?

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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dwmte7 says on Nov 20, 2007, 09:15:

kat...dogie business?

dwmte

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billyb says on Nov 20, 2007, 09:19:

I think she means, "dodgy"?

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Nov 20, 2007, 09:27:

eso eso eso

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Simon says on Nov 20, 2007, 10:22:

Why does this website allow such Colombian- hating trash on it?

These people have nothing more than an anti-Colombian agenda and they shouldn't be anywhere near Colombia!!

Where are the moderators? Are they part of this Colombia- hating agenda too?

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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morphus says on Nov 20, 2007, 10:39:

LOL....its true. Colombians make death threats all the time. One night I was hanging out with a girl in Medellin. She was with her friend and her friend's boyfriend. We were sitting at a sidewalk cafe having a few drinks and guy kept coming up to us begging for money. The other girl's boyfriend pulled out a gun and gave him a warning. The guy ran away.

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Medellin Traveler says on Nov 20, 2007, 10:45:

"Why does this website allow such Colombian- hating trash on it?

These people have nothing more than an anti-Colombian agenda and they shouldn't be anywhere near Colombia!!

Where are the moderators? Are they part of this Colombia- hating agenda too?" - Simon

What are you talking about? I belive most, if not all, members of PBH have more positives attitudes toward Colombia than negative ones. If we didn't like Colombia, we would be on a Costa Rica site talking about Costa Rica.

The other day when I was chatting with a Paisa online, I asked her about a hotel by Carrera 70, her reply, "Go ahead, you're the one that's going to get killed, not me." She thinks I should stay in El Poblado instead, were it's "safe."

We LOVE COLOMBIA!!

But, we want to LIVE to enjoy all Colombia has to offer!

"Huevos Rancheros en Medellin, No Quiero Taco Bell." - www.medellintraveler.com

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Simon says on Nov 20, 2007, 11:02:

I wasn't referring to you Medellin Traveller, but to those who always have to put a negative spin on any topic dealing with Colombia. These people obviously loathe the country, yet these losers can't seem to live without it!

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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Colombiche says on Nov 20, 2007, 12:54:

"Where are the moderators? Are they part of this Colombia- hating agenda too?" -simon

Ahora tu tambien vas a comenzar con eso?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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dwmte7 says on Nov 20, 2007, 15:04:

simon...i truly don't think there are any REAL colombia haters here. i certainly hope not... an occassional fool who talks without experience or knowledge, but that doesn't, of necessity make them colombia haters. i think GIB is right, thin skin is never much of a shield in a public forum like pbh. i think you're colombian, although i'm not sure. if so, you know well that there are countless paisanos who abuse their own home, culture and roots. for a few foreigners to comment on the seemingly senseless murders which occur in colombia shouldn't seem so odd. remember, they're strangers, in a strange land.

ive seen much of colombia over the years and there's much i've never experienced elsewhere i don't so much find it a 'fault' in colombia, rather, an issue that needs attention, nothing more. i find this in my own country. and believe me friend, i find much "issue" here in my own country. much, that even revolts me. and i do make comments. maybe you can be a little forgiving to those who i don't think mean colombia harm. if there are those who do wish harm...they should simply go. where ever.
douglas

dwmte

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Chelesupercono says on Nov 20, 2007, 17:52:

You gotta love Colombia....you have to be damm careful how you love it....

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

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RAAAY says on Nov 20, 2007, 21:16:

Police are searching for suspects in four murders in three separate incidents over the weekend in Nashville.

Saturday afternoon, at about 4:30 p.m., two men were found shot to death at a west Nashville car wash.

Steven Oden, 20, and Ronnie Lee Carver Jr., 18, were found dead at the National Car Wash on 40th Avenue North and Charlotte Pike.

Police said the suspects drove away in a dark-colored car.

Kristin Mumford, Metro Police, said, “Although it's an open investigation, we don't believe it was a random shooting.�

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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john_stark says on Nov 20, 2007, 21:38:

Imaginate. Four people were killed in Nashville. I bet it made the news. Let me know when the next one happens. In Medellin each and every day there are an average of two murders. They don't even report on them. Over 700 already this year.

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pedro says on Nov 20, 2007, 21:45:

Time I've spent in Colombia: 18 months so far
Number of shootings witnessed*: 2

Time I've spent in Europe: 5 years
Number of shootings witnessed: 0

Time I've spent in Australia: 25 years
Number of shootings witnessed: 0

* Witness = Did not actually see shooting, but I was close enough to hear the gunshots, within 50 metres or so.

que nota!

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christobeldawg says on Nov 20, 2007, 22:39:

I did some limited research tonight, since this seems everyone's favorite topic. Medellin murder rate is 35 \- per 100,000. The city of Atlanta is roughly the same. Metro Atlanta is likely much less. New Orleans is 52 \- per 100,000. Baltimore and DC are also higher than Atlanta. If anybody has some better stats that might shed light, which is likely, I would like to see more. All of this talk about there being a murder a day here or there is merely sensationalism. I would like to see some real up to date stats of comparison between Colombian cities and US cities.

admittedly, arriving can feel great too

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jtrapp says on Nov 20, 2007, 22:59:

I live in Oakland CA, and stuff like this happens 50 times a year, and Oaktown is about 1/8th the size of Medellin. Twice hearing gunshots in 18 months? I used to hear gunshots 2 times a week, until the cops put out all sorts of gunshot listening devices, and we've averaged about a murder a year in about a 5 block area near my house. Still, I dont feel unsafe here, for many of the reasons talked about on this site, and I like my neighborhood.

My neighbors have a camera pointed at a hot spot, and we've nailed all sorts of miscreants. The footage also makes for fine entertainment! Botched car break in s, drugs, sex. It is amazing how many people go to that spot underneath the freeway to have drunken, drugged, farting sex!

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jtrapp says on Nov 20, 2007, 23:13:

christobeldawg says on Tuesday November 20th, 2007 22:39:

If anybody has some better stats that might shed light, which is likely, I would like to see more.



The FBI just published this information on violent crime - 1.) Detroit, 2.) St. Louis, 4.) Oakland. I know that Oakland's rate has varied greatly over the years, between 20 and 70 per 100,000.



All of this talk about there being a murder a day here or there is merely sensationalism. I would like to see some real up to date stats of comparison between Colombian cities and US cities.


Yes, the incident described here, while disturbing if you are nearby, is only anecdotal evidence of general violence in a big city.

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christobeldawg says on Nov 20, 2007, 23:16:

Thanks. I guess I am just trying to get some numbers on whether Bogota and Medellin and Cali murder rates are actually higher, per capita, than in US big cities, the ones with alot of poverty like Oakland and Atlanta.

admittedly, arriving can feel great too

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pedro says on Nov 20, 2007, 23:20:

No, not twice hearing gunshots... two shootings, meaning bullets in body.

And yes John Stark, the one in Cartagena was in the newspaper the next day.

The one in Manizales, I'm not sure if it was fatal. I just saw the ambulance pull up and carry the guy out.

que nota!

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christobeldawg says on Nov 20, 2007, 23:43:

I am just trying to get a feel for why the murder rate in Colombia is supposedly so much higher than other countries. I was thinking, well, for one thing, because of the terrain of the country, most of the people are in a few large cities, and large cities, particularly where there is alot of poverty, have higher rates of homicide. I don't think there is anything inherently more violent within the people of Colombia than other countries.

admittedly, arriving can feel great too

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jtrapp says on Nov 21, 2007, 01:48:

My guess, and I could be completely wrong, is that most shootings in Colombian are more 'rational bad behavior' i.e. money, whereas, in the U.S., partly because of all the guns, porportionately more murders are completely senseless. Comparisons may not be as useful as you think.

Most of the murders in my neighborhood occurred between 1993 and 98. As you will see, several different cultures and mindsets.

- 5 were killed during a Native American Xmas party that got out of hand.

- A suicidal Latino killed his sisters boyfriend when he tried to calm him down.

- An Asian gang member who killed a former gang members sister while she was working the night shift at a convience store. No money was taken.

- A murder-suicide when a White school teacher and his Brazillian boyfriend discovered that they had shot up some poisoned heroin.

- The suspicious death (not making this up) of former President Carter's nephew on the lawn of the same above teacher's property the year before.

- A middle-eastern clerk was shot during a liquor store hold up.

- A husband and wife were mugged. The wife threw something at the dude, and the guy shot the husband.

So, I don't think that you can make a direct connection between Colombian murders and American murders.

I have visited or lived in other dangerous places, and had a near disaster experience with some skin-heads in Hungary. But, usually our fears are magnified well out of proportion with the danger (knock on wood).

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jtrapp says on Nov 21, 2007, 01:55:

P.S.,

I was in Colombia for only 2 1/2 weeks (plan to go back for a month or more), but the only crime I witnessed was when I discovered that I accidently packed up the remote from one of the hotels. I wonder if this will give me street cred.

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webmanco says on Nov 21, 2007, 02:13:

John Stark, I guess you don´t read the press much. Crimes do get reported just need to read the right newspaper, or section for that matter.

http://www.eltiempo.com/bogota/2007-11-16/ARTICULO-WEB-NOTA_INTERIOR-3...

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

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Chelesupercono says on Nov 21, 2007, 05:01:

GIB....well said and to the point...that is why many Americans refuse to accept the truth about anything, Colombia, anything!! remember with the dumbing down of American society, we always blame someone else and certainly can never accept ANY INCONVENIENT TRUTH

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

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jtrapp says on Nov 21, 2007, 08:08:

Gringo,

People on the site here compare the two countries because they need a frame of reference.

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john_stark says on Nov 21, 2007, 08:26:

I could not care less what happens in Cartagena or Bogota. The only online papers I read on El Meridiano de Cordoba and El Colombiano. El Meridiano does a good job of reporting on who's gotten whacked but El Colombiano does a terrible job.

As for the number of homicide victims this is the data: http://www.medellin.gov.co/AdmonContenido/EstadisticasGobierno/Documen...

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john_stark says on Nov 21, 2007, 08:36:

Last year's number of 709 homicides for a population of 2.3 million would give Medellin a rate of 30 per 100,000.

For a chart of the history of annual homicides the last decades see: http://www.medellin.gov.co/AdmonContenido/EstadisticasGobierno/Documen... MENSUAL DE HOMICIDIOS 198806.pdf

The peak year was 1991 with 6349.

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bill230 says on Nov 21, 2007, 08:46:

christobeldawg

There was an article in the Lancet recently that discusses violence in Colombia(Colombia continues to struggle with violence - by Mike Caesar). You have to sign up to read the whole article (www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673607616742/fulltex...)

I don't know whether it is accurate or not.

Here is one paragraph

"Ross says the culture of violence has roots going all the way back to the Spaniards who conquered the region in search of gold and other riches and the indigenous peoples who engaged in human sacrifice. The wars of the 20th century have only made that culture stronger, Ross says. Other nations, such as neighbouring Ecuador, have similar levels of poverty and social inequality but have never had the same rates of violence, Ross pointed out. “It is the acceptance of violence as normative, not as an aberration�, in some parts of Colombia's society, he said. “On the contrary, if you are violent, you are not deviant.�"

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RAAAY says on Nov 21, 2007, 08:54:

Egonbogota................once again you display your total lack of understanding of how life works................it is quite legitimate for people to compare one thing here to one thing in the States..........life is a series of comparisons....................so many things revolve around the whole idea.........a large per-centage of the folks on this site are American..........so, for them, .it is natural to compare things like the climate.......cost of living.........quality of life....... crime etc etc......to the States.

You, however prefer to indulge us with your action hero status................you cultivate this notion of how dangerous it is here in a flimsy attempt to elevate yourself into some sort of HE man for merely living in Bogota.

It seems to have escaped you that all sorts of shit happens in all sorts of places...........usally to people who are engaged in activities that carry a certain amount of danger and risk.

Whatever about these two guys in Medellin that M.T. is refering to...........one thing is certain.......they were not boy scouts preparing to go on a camping trip.

I've got news for anyone that thinks that news of a murder here is treated any different to news of a murder anywere..................nobody, other than those close to the victim bats an eyelid.......here in Colombia or the States or a European country or wherever else.........such is life.

To those that are tut tutting about these two murders in Medellin last week-end..........get over it ...............I did a little research..............last week-end there were murders in Dublin, London, Glasgow, Paris, Durbin, Cape Town, Johanasburg, Berlin, Prague, Oslo, Gotthenburg, Rome, Napels, Miami, Nashville, Detroit, Philladelphia, Los Angeles, Dallas, New York, Trenton, New Orleans,Washington D.C, Boston, Seattle,..........

I gave up on my searching......................Just to many................and a guy survived a shooting in my little home town in Ireland ( pop 12,000 )............reports are that it was drug related

Apart from where I grew up............I have lived for two years or more in Dublin, Belfast London, Rio de Janiero, New York, West Palm, and have travelled to many parts of the world on trips. Whatever about times past.........Living in Medellin is by far the safest place I have ever lived.

It's the activities that people engage in that get them killed........not the place.

So......go ahead Egoinbogota..........blow your trumpet some more.........

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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john_stark says on Nov 21, 2007, 09:27:

Wow. People were murdered all over the world. What will we learn next?

"Living in Medellin is by far the safest place I have ever lived."

That is the official PBH gospel right there. Safer than your own home town!

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manINred says on Nov 21, 2007, 09:31:

Perhaps they lived in the Gaza strip? Oh well, people dig their own graves by walking around with misguided realities. Deeply engrained socio-economic problems do NOT just disappear overnight.

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manINred says on Nov 21, 2007, 09:32:

Let alone the hundreds of militia groups, paramilitary groups, guerrilla groups and armed 'neigbourhood watches' that are scattered all over ths city...

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manINred says on Nov 21, 2007, 09:36:

That being said, Medellin CAN be 'safe' (a spurious and relative term if ever I heard one) thesedays if you take the necessary precautions, and don't act like an idiot.

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Chelesupercono says on Nov 21, 2007, 12:30:

Living in Medellin is often compared to living in the Vatican......hmm....... who told me that? Elmo? J_S? Oh hell....don't remember...

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

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RAAAY says on Nov 21, 2007, 16:25:

Of course I read your posts...............my day would'nt be fulfilled without reading the exploits of the caped crusader in Bogota..............please tell..........how many did you administer justice to today...........or did you just flash a few of those STERN stares...?

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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RAAAY says on Nov 21, 2007, 16:40:

HEY,...............relax........You don'nt need to convince me that you are really a pussy.
I already know..............

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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vicshere says on Nov 21, 2007, 16:42:

GIB raaay's a former cop and use to throwing his weight around ....the only difference is now he has more weight to throw at you

listo

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RAAAY says on Nov 21, 2007, 16:44:

As usual.............Vic is wrong...............but he's still a f**kin genuis....

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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RAAAY says on Nov 21, 2007, 16:49:

Only if you promise not to give me one of the STERN stares.................Anything else I can handle..................

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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RAAAY says on Nov 21, 2007, 16:55:

You'll have to do something to annoy me first..................I can't fight when I'm laughing so much..............and up till now.......all you do is amuse me...........jajajajajajaja

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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vicshere says on Nov 21, 2007, 16:58:

raaay your a f**kin genuis...man you like using that phrase...maybe heard it too many times from your mammy when you were a tot....by the way genuis should genius---->>Someone who has exceptional intellectual ability and originality...Someone who is dazzlingly skilled in any field.....Exceptional creative ability...A natural talent....something you have not got

listo

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RAAAY says on Nov 21, 2007, 17:03:

OH NOOOOO.................both of you are hurting my feelings.............

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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vicshere says on Nov 21, 2007, 17:04:

tell him he can't ride a bike worth shit GIB

listo

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billyb says on Nov 21, 2007, 17:06:

Allright, now PBH is getting a little interesting, been kinda dull with Mona gone lately, jeje. Just remember fellers, Marquis of Queensbury rules, ok?

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RAAAY says on Nov 21, 2007, 17:07:

Oh......the pain.............Vic.......that really got me where it hurts............someone give me a hankerchief.................

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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RAAAY says on Nov 21, 2007, 17:18:

Billy..................are STERN stares allowed under Queensbury rules...??

If so...........i'm in trouble..

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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billyb says on Nov 21, 2007, 17:21:

Rule #6-A, Stern stares not allowed, but sneers are quite ok.

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