Curious about what I witnessed last night...

kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 2, 2009, 06:12:

ddluzdelsol says on Nov 2, 2009, 06:33:

Did she refuse care? Maybe this is not a new condition for her, and she knew there was nothing else they could do for her. Some people live with seizures because of a pre-existing condition, and doctors are working on it, but the only thing she can do at the moment was to go through it, record it, and tell her doctor about it??
This is only my thoughts, maybe I'm wrong, and they should have taken her. I'm not sure.
When a parent at our school had a seizure, the ambulance came, and so did the husband. He told us that the doctors are working on it, no need for the ambulance, and he took her home.

If she didn't say anything, I'm saying it: Thank you for caring about another person who was in need of assistance.

Christmas and New Years in Ibague!!

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babygirl says on Nov 2, 2009, 06:33:

Wow, that's disturbing. So pardon my ignorance but what is the purpose of ambulance services, just to check her vitals? Would they have helped her if she were unconscious let's say or bleeding excessively? What happens to the people with no money if they're seriously hurt or ill? I'm not being a smart ass, I'm really curious. I really do love my country.

Best quote of the week... "should I be taking this pill with wine?" Canadian Girls Kick Ass!

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onthemoon says on Nov 2, 2009, 06:35:

What to make? Make your own conclusions, these are mine.
*People with money dont care about people in need.
*Policemen here are very corrupted (not everybody of course) they help you if they can take advantage of you or they just dont help at all.
*If you go to a clinic they will treat you according to the medical insurance you have, if u pay less they care less. If you dont have any, you just die outside. literally.
This is a country for survivors, and the best of all is that you can find the opposite, very loving, caring passionate people who works with love and help others without expecting anything in return. I am glad you helped. =))

Love Happens...

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babygirl says on Nov 2, 2009, 06:41:

OTM... I hate to be negative but based what I've heard from very poor friends in Colombia that would have been my conclusion too. It's only hear-say on my part though, but what you've said pretty much confirms it.

Question, does everybody have a very basic medical coverage in Colombia? I think in the states it's medicare or something to that effect?

Best quote of the week... "should I be taking this pill with wine?" Canadian Girls Kick Ass!

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CharlieTheOwl says on Nov 2, 2009, 06:43:

You die in the US too if you don't have medical insurance. Its funny, if you have medical insurance, the doctors will say you need all kinds of tests. If you don't have insurance, they say you are ok and send you on your way.

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kingfish5515 says on Nov 2, 2009, 06:43:

Thats not very nice. I wonder if it would have been different if it were not a homeless person,,, say one of the rich poblado kids in the park or a gringo? My thinking is that they would handled it differently but who knows. kingfish

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onthemoon says on Nov 2, 2009, 06:45:

Si baby, we have SISBEN, that s for very poor people, the thing is that the service is not too good. But well, better that than nothing. =S

Love Happens...

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kenziejones says on Nov 2, 2009, 06:46:

ddluz,

No she did not deny care, and even if she did, a standard level of medical protocol is that when you are in a state like that you cannot deny care on your own behalf -- she fell on pavement and hit her head, thus there is likely potential for ICP (swelling of the brain following a head injury). ICP can develop over the course of the next 12 or so hours and can result in death. Even though she seemed fine at the time of release, the swelling may have been in progress... Any medical professional should know this and treat it accordingly (supervised care with medications).

Although at the same time you are completely correct: there is little you can do for a seizure other than stabilize the head, maintain air flow and induce vomiting if necessary. Problem is, seizures often result in auxiliary conditions such as head injuries :(

Tasting the world one hot pepper at a time!

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kenziejones says on Nov 2, 2009, 06:50:

babygirl,

Yeah I guess it depends on country and local laws. I was once hit by a vehicle in the US and eventually had this conversation with hospital admin -- they said that homeless people who have no money still get a legal right to medical care, but oftentimes they are still held accountable for the resulting bill...commonly this leads to an inability to pay and delinquent credit on the part of the patient, thus furthering the class wars.

Tasting the world one hot pepper at a time!

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Haddeman says on Nov 2, 2009, 06:52:

I remember literally watching a woman die in an Indian bus station a few years back,it was heartbreaking and the image never leaves me.As a cop in London I and my colleagues responded to thousands of cases like this and we always did our best,including CPR and artificial respiration.I remember doing it to an old tramp who promptly vomitted all over me and gave me hepititus.
Here the boundaries are more defined.In Europe the least a person would do is stop and call assistance.So much for the wonderful caring Paisas,perhaps they only care if you´ve got Comeva gold !

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 2, 2009, 06:54:

kenziejones says on Nov 2, 2009, 06:54:

onthemoon,

Yeah I am obligated to agree with you because it is pretty much true world-wide. One thing however is that though police are sometimes corrupt, I didn't see this as a case of corruption. I mean, there I was kneeling in the middle of the road holding her head as she was violently shaking -- the other guy was maintaining air flow and cleaning vomit out of her mouth -- and three police officers literally just stood over us and watched, not even saying anything or making gestures to assist. In the end, the police didn't even file any report whatsoever and upon our eventual departure from the site, they simply said "thank you." Did they gain from not assisting? Sure, they didn't have to get their hands dirty. Hm....

Tasting the world one hot pepper at a time!

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oneforyourmillion says on Nov 2, 2009, 06:55:

KENZ I will tell you exactly what this probably was. It was a scam. This is very popular right now to fake these siezures and then ask for medicine or for money for medecine. Old lady? If it was real they would have teken her to the hospital. Typically they ask for the medicine and then sell the medecine. Sometimes it does happen for real but most times it is a scam. There was a guy in my neighborhood doing it. I helped first time just by stayig with him, they put some soda in their mouth so they foam and the entire deal. I did not see him have the siezure only on the ground. The next day the same thing happend, the guy did not live or work or know anyone in the neighborhood I asked, so why here two days in a row? A lady ran off to buy him his medecine I tried to explain to her it was a scam but she was hell bent on being the good samaritan. But it is not like the real thing. If you have seen the real thing you know the fake.

Just be careful about these type things here. You can end up the vicitim real quick and for more than just a few pesos. Basically a good rule of thumb for the gringo is if the Colombains are not doing anything? You don't do something. This is hard to do but will save you a lot of problems.

I did witness the real thing once. I stayed with the guy and helped best I could till it was over. It was real, he asked for nothing, I got him a glass of water. He had terrible fracture scars all over his body, legs arms, it was terrible. He got them from crossing the street and having a siezur in the middle of the street and the cars running over him. The medecine is 60k or so a month and unless someone helps them they do suffer under this because the healcare system here is shit if your poor. So it does happen but I supect it was a scam, the police and the ambulance people knew it was a scam.

Up on septima a lady was hit by a bus last month. A robber came up and stole her purse as she was on the ground. The police shot him, so don't tell me the police don't care. JAJA

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kenziejones says on Nov 2, 2009, 07:04:

oneforyourmillion,

Thank you, good advice and quite valid I'm sure although this particular incident was in fact real. I will keep your insights in mind if I see this happen again.

Few aspects of this incident could have been faked. There was no monetary or medicinal transaction; there were no physiological responses that could have been faked (she stopped breathing for more than a minute, e.g., a woman of her physique and age probably could not fake that); she hit her head noticeably hard and had a nice bump, she collapsed amidst traffic in a busy road, etc.

Although thank you for the heads-up, I'm sure this is a nice model for a smooth scam. I actually saw similar things happen while living in China...

Tasting the world one hot pepper at a time!

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Haddeman says on Nov 2, 2009, 07:04:

Mr Oneinamillion,
It has to be said that you are one cynical bastard.People do collapse in the street in Colombia as in London or Little Rock or wherever you are from.Sure,there are scams but by literally walking over people you will never know if they are prevaricating or not.Still,rest assured if one day you come out of the brothel and collapse after hyperventilating on the effects of an overdose of viagra I, for one will stop and try to assist you.

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Gator says on Nov 2, 2009, 07:05:

Othermoon is correct-she would have been covered under SISBEN (Sistema de Identificación de Beneficiarios de Subsidios Sociales ) even covers homeless people. 0ften people in her strata, homeless, are classified as a 1 by SISBEN, are very distrustful of hospitals and prefer what we would call "traditonal home medicine." Since, from your profile, you are new to Colombia you have some more shock coming.

Best bet is to remember what Dorothy said, "Gee, Toto, I don't thing we are in Kansas any more." You don't have to like it but best you learn to live with it.

"Bene, cum Latine nescias, nolo manus meas in te maculare" .

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kenziejones says on Nov 2, 2009, 07:09:

Point well-noticed Gator. For someone like me and others who have lived here a relatively short time, it is a matter of adjusting to how things work in an unfamiliar culture.

I recall seeing a guy smashed hard by a bus in China, laid him out on the road covered in blood and all twisted up, and I wondered if I should get involved. I decided against it, as I was not fluent in Chinese and would not have been able to communicate with him or anyone else around, also not being familiar with local laws, etc., it would not be worth the risk to get involved and then inadvertently make the situation worse and getting in trouble for it. Gotta recognize your limits...

Tasting the world one hot pepper at a time!

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kenziejones says on Nov 2, 2009, 07:12:

kat1,

Yes I agree, at least put her in touch with some friends! Maybe escort her to her unofficial homeless home on the river side or something...give her a bottle of water and an ice pack for her head...too much to ask?

Tasting the world one hot pepper at a time!

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kenziejones says on Nov 2, 2009, 07:18:

CharlieTheOwl,

False. In the US you have a legal right to medical attention if it is available. Medical professionals have a legal right to administer care regardless of financial or insurance environments. You don't, however, necessarily have the right to have the fees waived after care. I've had this happen to me personally and also know of others. It's a semi-functional system in that people can get care but then they fall further down the poverty line when they can't pay the bills. Sucks.

Tasting the world one hot pepper at a time!

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oneforyourmillion says on Nov 2, 2009, 07:21:

OK boys ignore my advice.

Recently I helped a "friend" who had five kids threatening him. No one else helped. Turned out this was a gang, the capo came for a vsit and threatened to kill me. I waited for them to come do it, you can not run fromthem So to help them understand what is what I made it easy for them. They did not show and my friend did not, neither did any other male in the area but one. One stood with me and of course my other friends waiting up the street to take this guy off the planet. No one has seen the capo in two months? beats me where he is? hmmmmm? It is a fokin mystery. Some of you will make fun of this because your stupid. Others might learn from it?

You as a gringo are a target. I have been drugged here and put in the hospital. Have you? Hell no you have not, your wondering around oblivious to the kinds of shit that can happen to you here. Don't try and lecture me as to what is what in Colombia. You don't know shit like 99.9 % of the people who post here.

I am trying to help you. Scopolamina is used very easy and it is very easy to stage these things and stage them good yes right in the middle of the street. Next thing you know you lean down to help and you got the shit in your face. People don't help here not because they dont care but because they are smart.

She stopped breathing for a minute? Bullshit. Did you resperate her? Did anyone? No? Oh she just started breathing again on her own? Bullshit. She could refuse the ride to the hospital but you say she did not? Well then guess what? It was a scam.

As far as resperating me on the street if I needed it? Hmmm I stood outside my house in the rain frozen like a zombie unable to move from my drugging until the cleaning lady saw me and my girlfriend came, a fokin long time. No one thought that strange to help the gringo so beleive me I know no help is gonna come ever here, I accept that. Maybe you think by helping, someone will help you? Wrong.

So what did you do for her? You put your self a risk and did nothing then? Not smart. If your a doctor then ok do something, if not then mind your own business.

Lie I said it could ahve been real? But it was probably a scam. A good one and you have embellished it enough that the lady was for real hurt because she fell down.

Well people listen up. In a country where people STARVE TO DEATH a bump on the head to get some money is nothing.

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 2, 2009, 07:28:

oneforyourmillion says on Nov 2, 2009, 07:33:

I used to be like that. I am not anymore and well I have my reasons. It is called learning the hard way. It is too bad it really is but the Japanese have a saying. "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down."

If it were a cultural thing to help like in the US or Europe then I would help. Here the norm is to ignore. So as a gringo you can not stick your head out of the norm and make a habbit out of it and survive. As a gringo or ayone else for hat matter but for damned sure not a gringo.

I have defended a women being attacked in the street only to be scolded by my girlfriend and told to never do that again. I thought she was wrong but I have had enough shit happen to me here to know that she is right.

There is the way we want things to be and the way things are. .

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Haddeman says on Nov 2, 2009, 07:33:

I take your point above but as somebody who has lived,here and elsewhere and probably seen more dead mangled,blown to pieces bodies than the rest of you put together on this forum I can assure you than what goes around comes around in life.

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kenziejones says on Nov 2, 2009, 07:34:

oneforyourmillion,

Look, it's cool. The point of this post is to discuss something that happened, not to get all heated. Your advice and insight is well-taken, I promise it is and like I said I will certainly keep it in mind.

Sorry to hear about the mishaps you have experienced, that is truly frustrating. It's amazing how crazy things can get when you least expect them. It's also interesting to see how interesting and creative scams can get these days in any country. It's all a big game of cat and mouse...

Sure I'm a gringo in the sense that I have not lived in Med for very long, but I've lived in a multitude of other countries as a foreigner and am well-aware of scams. Sure we are all targets, its just a matter of being aware of it and knowing your boundaries. What happened last night between me and that lady didn't cost me a single thing or harm me in any way. The only thing it took from me was about an hour of my time.

I am actually quite stubborn when it comes to *helping* people because I realize that 99% of the time it's a scam, but I can also recognize the real emergencies. I do have medical training and have spent a number of years working in Search & Rescue -- I can tell when someone is faking and when they are not.

Nonetheless, thank you for the feedback and please accept my apologies for any possible misinterpretation of your comments. :)

Tasting the world one hot pepper at a time!

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CharlieTheOwl says on Nov 2, 2009, 07:36:

Kenziejones, it depends. If you are in critical condition you will get just enough care until you are able to walk out of the hospital. If you want tests done for hidden illnesses like cancer and heart disease, its different.

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oneforyourmillion says on Nov 2, 2009, 07:38:

Kenz I am only getting heated with you because what you are doing and how you are is EXACTLY the mistake I made and I do not want you to have to learn the way I did. My memory is still very foked up from that time of me being too complacent. For 6 months I could not remember what happened 5 minutes ago. It was very bad.

Your not more street smart than me beleive me. I have been around and they get you when you least expect it. They are frickin masters at that. 1PM on a Monday afternoon they got me. Two blocks from my house. It is hard to do but man listen to me, you have got to learn to ignore these things. If a bunch of people are helping then OK go help. If not then keep walking.

I have spent a lot of time in Colombia. 7 years living here and in some of the worst parts of Bogota. Having spent a lot of time in them. I know what is going on here beleive me and I an not say everything but I a plugged in. I know Colombia from the 80's when it was way different than now. I speak Spanish

They still got me man.

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kenziejones says on Nov 2, 2009, 07:42:

CTO,

Ok, I see your point and you are correct. Good to have clarification. I agree completely; the testing and pharmaceutical industries thrive off of stuff like insurance and it's all a big ugly travesty....glad you mentioned this in the thread.

Still it sucks for people who get stuck with un-authorized medical bills for basic care -- I had one for $8K one time and could not pay it, it became delinquent and has been haunting me for years. To be optimistic and thankful, however, I would rather have health than any amount of money! ("Poor but happy!")

Tasting the world one hot pepper at a time!

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theflatline says on Nov 2, 2009, 07:43:

Kat1,

You would stop because you have lived in the first world for a very long time and you are a good person

The problem is that in the states and the UK you have had generations of people who were taught civic education. Not throwing trash in the streets and helping your fellow man without expecting anything in return.

While my fellow Colombians can be a very caring people, they are more social than civic minded.

Every one has rights and duties as a citizen. And waving a flag and saying you are proud to be from a country does not cover ones' civic responsibility.

You wait politely in lines, you do not throw trash in the streets, you open doors, you help your elders, you do not refer to la empleada as "nena", many little things that add up to a whole.

In the states if someone falls out in public, or even stumbles, people usually rush to help. I have seen it in major cities and small towns, coast to coast. And cell phones will be pulled out and a call made. And an ambulance will make an appearance in 5 minutes. OR somone will know first aid or cpr.

In Colombia people like to just stand and watch like it is a free movie.

When gun shots are heard, people do not scatter, they go see. When a car wreck happens they walk in and peek in the windows, not really offering help. And take pics with their cell phones.

Legaleez for Complete Morons - A book for gringos in Colombia for who think they understand the nature of the law in a country where they cannot speak the language.

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oneforyourmillion says on Nov 2, 2009, 07:53:

"Curious about what I witnessed last night..."

Don't ask if you don't like the answers.

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 2, 2009, 07:59:

kenziejones says on Nov 2, 2009, 08:00:

So I've been thinking about all of the comments in this thread and find them all insightful. Thank you all for your feedback. Just curious now, if you were in the same situation, what would you do and why?

Tasting the world one hot pepper at a time!

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kenziejones says on Nov 2, 2009, 08:04:

kat1,

Interesting comment -- your mention about your bag potentially getting stolen made me recall another detail. This lady was carrying a purse which was full of all kinds of stuff including some random crumpled wads of cash. Turns out it came in handy for us who were there for her because it made a nice pillow for her head while on the street. But at the same time, any one of us could have stolen her purse and taken all of her money and other articles. But that was not the case...just an interesting reverse-situation thing...

Tasting the world one hot pepper at a time!

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 2, 2009, 08:04:

oneforyourmillion says on Nov 2, 2009, 08:08:

yes well they could steal your bag or pass scopolamina into your face and put you in an apartment in Sante Fe working as a prostitute all day and night until your dead or worse they let you go and then your dead. That happens here, bags getting stolen? Well I have never been robbed here of my wallet or cell phone only drugged and put in the hospital.

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kenziejones says on Nov 2, 2009, 08:09:

kat1,

Super cool that you helped the teenagers! But I guess most teens eventually go through that learning curve! :)

Yeah I would have talked to this lady more except for 2 reasons: first, my Spanish is not quite fluent; and second, she was mixed up enough that it was very difficult for her to speak coherently and enunciate her words -- even if my listening in Spanish was perfect I would have a hard time understanding her.

The other guy who was there helping us was a native Spanish speaker and had a bit of English, so him and I communicated in broken Spanglish while he talked to her in Spanish...he was a small guy and I am bigger, so I was the one doing the physical work (holding her upright) while he did most of the talking -- a rather fortunate team actually! :)

Tasting the world one hot pepper at a time!

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jimbo67856 says on Nov 2, 2009, 08:10:

kenzie,

Who in the world told you one should "induce vomiting" to a seizure patient? Good grief man, the primary task is to protect the head and prevent damage to the patient. At no point should you be anywhere near the person's airway except to clear it if necessary; being near an seizure patient during the event is dangerous for BOTH of you. Inducing vomiting is a terrific way to CLOG the airway. And yes, my EMT is current; my brother a stabilized epileptic for whom I became trained just in case.

As to ICP, bro, the typical fall involves seizure aura (the act of realizing one is coming and preparing for them) while the more surprise events involve a fall from, what?, 5 feet? Are you kidding me? Dude I saw my nephew take a spill from at least 3 meters a few weeks ago - poor little guy, straight onto his head almost - and he had a MTBI which caused doctors such alarm they called him granite head. He's fine now and I helped him on the phone w/ his algebra the other night ... and of course he understood it better than me. Fockin kids.

Anyway, no offense bro but I'm questioning your creds about accurately diagnosing a seizure. What you're suggesting is a tonic-clonic seizure but I'm curious about how long it lasted, how much vomiting occurred (e.g. how long), whether or not "evacuation" occurred, and to what degree her pupils were uneven or she complained of confusion/headache/nausea/sleepiness in the postictal state. The reason I ask that is obvious: Some folks are faking, some are in a drug-induced seizure which in some countries - although I don't know about COL - the public responders are forbidden to treat.

I've lived everywhere, bro. I've seen some doozies. A friend of mine (EMT in Kenya) responded to some idiot who shot himself to avoid a weekend with his inlaws. I once saw some bozo in Thailand slash some poor bastard because he (the slasher) was high on something and thought the victim was the devil. Good stuff. All completely real too. You could've seen anything. But no offense your rudimentary understanding of ICP as it relates especially to seizure victims makes me wonder what you really saw.

Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. ---- Thomas Jefferson

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oneforyourmillion says on Nov 2, 2009, 08:11:

Well my friend on that day you were the hero. The next day you might not be so lucky. Welcome to Colombia.

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MaBarker says on Nov 2, 2009, 08:17:

This happens everyday, all day long, in big cities like New York, Chicago, Los Angeles.

"I come to praise Darloup, not to bury him'............Julius Caesar

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oneforyourmillion says on Nov 2, 2009, 08:20:

Man this post has really made me evaluate things. yes I have gotten cynical. I got there for a reason for many reasons really.

I have seen mothers who prostituted their little girls for 2 thousand pesos, I have tried to bring the little girls back to a normal life, to just be able to say two fokin words. I have helped families only to have them try to kill me, kidnap me and extort money from me. I have seen entire families with bellies that were touching their spinal cords who wanted to work who wanted to have a better life but it was not for them. I have seen people who have had everything in the world not have 30 seconds to permit a little old lady to cross the street without blowing thier fokin horn or worse. I have seen people steal and rob legally from the most unfortunant. I have seen people try it on the rich and get killed. I have witnessed the celebration of the torture of the missfortunant, I have seen the good in people completely stomped out like you would a smoldering ember. I have seen the constant taking advantage of any kindness, any good deed, gensture or helping hand. I have seen the lies reported in the press and celebrated by the ignorant. I have seen too fokin much. So sorry for that.

Someone take me out to smell some flowers please!

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kenziejones says on Nov 2, 2009, 08:25:

Jimbo,

First off, you are correct in my misuse of the term "induce." I didn't realize I used that term until you mentioned it; to induce would in fact be bad and that is not the term I meant. What I meant was "facilitate" (?) for lack of a better term. Basically, she was vomiting and yes we were clearing out her airways...her mouth was clenched shut most of the time but she maintained breathing through her nasal. We were not trying to induce vomiting.

Sure, a 5-foot fall is not necessarily an MOI, but I witnessed the fall and it appeared to be significant enough that I was concerned about ICP.

Evacuation was not an option at the time; we did our best with available resources. We turned her on her side so that she could vomit downhill, which is exactly what happened (when we got to her she was facing uphill). It was dark and I could not assess her pupils until later. Her response to the subjective interview was alert and intelligible, which leads me to deduce that she was coherent, at least at the time being. Her pulse and respiration rates stabilized after about 16 minutes after the initial fall. She was in a seizure state for approximately 3 minutes.

I am trained, certified, and experienced as a WFR. Yep that is below an EMT but I did the best with my available knowledge and resources. The criticism is not quite well taken on my part, as I did my best considering the circumstances. I simply don't understand how this cannot be supported.

Tasting the world one hot pepper at a time!

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 2, 2009, 08:26:

oneforyourmillion says on Nov 2, 2009, 08:29:

Ca I say this observation as well. The American way is to take your norms and your way of life and prject that onto where ever. You do it when you co0me here, I did it as well. you can't help but to do it. So what makes you think that all those people standing up on the curb watcing are wrong and you are right? Not attacking I just want to know?

I think this is going to be the downfall of the US. They fight wars to do this. They see what they perceive to be injustice nad they go to fix it. Well I jsut don't think that works in this world. I think too many people have learend how to manipulat ethat good nature and those good intentions.

When you go visit the Museo de Oro do you wnat to dssplay something of your own? No? Good then while you are here in Colombia be an observer not an activist. I only say this becaus it is a COMPLETELY different world than the one you know and the more you get involved in it the more you find that out and the more mistakes you make. It sucks but the way to be here is enjoy the prepagos, drinking and parting and that is it. Anything more than that will destroy you.

I know that ken you are not going to listen to me.

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jimbo67856 says on Nov 2, 2009, 08:34:

kenzie,

perfectly understood bro. I misphrase stuff all the time. no biggie. hope I didn't piss you off, but I was concerned that someone might be trying to induce vomiting to a seizure patient. glad you weren't!!! I respect that at least you have training and tried to/were ready to help. I mean that ... no patronizing BS. Some people would've cruised on by, sadly even some w/ training. So good for you and I wasn't intending to be a jerk (if that's how it came off).

kat, yes it most certainly does matter. Accurately diagnosing a medical problem is the KEY to rendering aid. yes, he stopped and i respect him for that. but (and i realize it was a mistake in phrasing) if he (meaning anyone) were misapplying medical treatments that most certainly DOES matter, especially to the victim. The reality as kenzie will tell you is that misdiagnoses can cause death just as quickly as no attention at all, sometimes quicker.

Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. ---- Thomas Jefferson

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roloenNJ says on Nov 2, 2009, 08:36:

Welcome to Colombia!!

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oneforyourmillion says on Nov 2, 2009, 08:37:

I have training and well I was not there so can not say but my first impulse would have not been to run over their without evaluating the situation very carefully. I have helped before but I doubt I will ever again.

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kenziejones says on Nov 2, 2009, 08:41:

Jimbo,

Key points, all of them. Thanks for that. Yes you did come off as a jerk at first.

So no offense taken, er...um, at least none kept! :)

Yeah I really did use the wrong term "induce." It happens. Honestly I don't think I would have reacted other than calling an ambulance if I didn't have training. I'm thankful I did have training through, because at minimum she was thrashing around pretty good and we did a good job of preventing further head injury and keeping her airways cleared.

You make a good contention about proper diagnosis. People are misdiagnosed all the time and it creates further damage. I'm absolutely positive that she was having a seizure and as it turns out the medics confirmed it and in the end she was fine (at least until she wandered off alone in the dark...).

At any rate, thanks for the comments and no offense kept!

Tasting the world one hot pepper at a time!

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pedro (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 2, 2009, 08:50:

jimbo67856 says on Nov 2, 2009, 08:51:

Kenzie,

I apologize once more b/c you confirmed I did in fact come off as a jerk. My bad. What can I say? I'm a tremendous a-hole! LOL j/k

Again, no patronizing but I commend that you stopped and rendered aid. Hey man, you weren't given an ambulance and control of the scene, so obviously (and unfortunately) you didn't have what you needed. You did what you could, and now that we've cleared up the misunderstanding I can plainly see (er read) you know what you're doing. So good for you. I was just concerned that people might think "oh seizure, induce vomiting." But ya, I def could've phrased better.

Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. ---- Thomas Jefferson

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oneforyourmillion says on Nov 2, 2009, 09:00:

yes it is and as well it is stupid.

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webmanco says on Nov 2, 2009, 09:03:

kenziejones, thanks for helping the old woman. Never mind advices as not to help. do it always keeping in mind a good comun sense and with less possibilities of giving papaya.

Now if a local is not helping does not mean you should not help, as a matter of fact a local helped.

I do live in Bogotá maybe a different Bogotá that OFYM does. He brings screenplays just like out the movies.

Brothers do help brothers.

On this subject I do think as Kat1,

"I can't believe you are saying that OFYM, I will have stop and help".........

the only difference is I do not fall for looks, apariencias.

Haz el bien y no mires a quíen.

No hay extremo cierto o verdadero, porque los extremos opacan, enruedan, (lavan cerebros) verdades. Yotas

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oneforyourmillion says on Nov 2, 2009, 09:06:

What happens to PBH people when the pbh world meets the real world? Oh I know they get robbed or less than what happened to me and run back to the states and never post again. I know this because I know some that did just that. JAJA
La Huella is still here, a veteran so he is the exception from what I have seen the rest of you have lived so careully in your little bubble under you girlfriends wing that you never experience anything but seem to be experts on everything in a sufficient sense to ignore good advice. It funny to me and any normal Colombian.

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oneforyourmillion says on Nov 2, 2009, 09:08:

Web yep bothers help brothers here. But fok the strangers is the way it is everywhere in Colombia, everywhere.

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tropicalshirt says on Nov 2, 2009, 09:23:

"But fok the strangers is the way it is everywhere in Colombia, everywhere."

Sounds like Italy! Do they have scolpamine? (sic!)

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kenziejones says on Nov 2, 2009, 09:23:

Jimbo,

No biggie, internet communication sucks sometimes because things get mixed up! Especially when one unassuming key word can get victimized! So no worries. Good to speak to a fellow who has a bit of med background so as to understand the situation and clarify.

Uhg. Nonetheless it was an interesting night. It's actually the first time in a couple of years I've had to render care so for me it was a nice little wake-up call back to my prior learnings. I hope to get my WEMT someday, but money, time and space get in the way for now. I did most of my work out in the woods, built trails in the mountains for 6 years. Had some interesting events up on the rocks for sure!

Take care.

Tasting the world one hot pepper at a time!

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kenziejones says on Nov 2, 2009, 09:27:

Webmanco,

Nice input. Yes the way I see it is that I am a local helping another local, despite nationality, age, ethnicity or class. In fact I was different from that woman in all those ways. And also the fact that I'm not a woman. :)

Anyhow, although I'm weary of scams and what not, I do believe in helping people when help is due. It was due last night.

Hasta.

Tasting the world one hot pepper at a time!

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jimbo67856 says on Nov 2, 2009, 09:34:

Hahahahaha kenzie. Dude, the WORST thing for me about the net is that I have a dry sense of humor. Some get it right away (prolly cuz they're the same way), some don't. I usually don't care either way but this was about a serious topic plus u seem like a cool mofo.

And yeah man, I can imagine how interesting that was. Especially w/ ur training u musta been goin apeshi*. "Dude, give her the HGN for chri*** sake!!!! WTF do u mean her BPM are normal? No chit! U fockers showed up WWWAAAYYY after!!!" Oh man, I can only imagine. W/ my bad Spanish combined w/ the anger I woulda felt i can only imagine bein in that spot!

Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. ---- Thomas Jefferson

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tropicalshirt says on Nov 2, 2009, 09:45:

Kenzie

Good for you.

People look out for themselves all over. This may be in the UK or in one of the poorer countries. I'm glad you made a difference. I've done this myself before, but you have to keep your wits about you at the same time and make the judgement that you feel is right at the
time...

A few years ago I bought a ticket for a night train from Bayamo to Havanna, Cuba. The train was late so I went over to talk to the staff. They said I had a ticket for the guagua! I said I bought a ticket for train at the train station. So the boss comes out and squares up to me and I square up to him. After these theatricals and the laughter of the locals, the crowd shouted let the comapnero on the train!

Well, the train turns up and it is the oldest piece of shit you have ever seen. Parts of the train where from Germany, other parts from Mexico, some pre WW2, some pre WW1. Everyone makes a run for the train to get a seat. A poor lady in front of me falls between the train and the platform, but we manage to pull her up.

I get a seat and a train employee comes through the carriage and tells me to watch my belongings, there are many thieves!

There are no lights and water is pouring through the roof. The windows are broken and I look around at the carriage and see one man staring at me! Another train employee come through the car and lights up each carriage. Now you can see cockroaches all over the train and the rain is pouring therough the roof. The man on the other side of the carriage is straing at me! I start swearing in English and put up my hood.

It is midnight and the train starts. The ride make a ghost rain feel like a Bentley. It is rocking and rolling lik a wild horse. It is so bad it makes you laugh.

After 30 minutes we stop and more passengers get on. Three of them head for the man who has been staring at me and there is an argument, he is in there seats and they force him to get up. With littel resistance the man gets up. He has one leg!!!

I can see now he is no harm at all, just a little knackered thats all. The train is bucking all over the place and he is standing there on one leg! No one gets up, no one offers assistance. I can't live with myself, I have to get up and give him my seat. I have to. I'll give it five minutes...

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kenziejones says on Nov 2, 2009, 09:48:

Yeah and you know as well as I do how adrenaline kicks in and makes your head cloudy in situations like that!

Actually yes I have a stout sense of humor as well and it's hard to "read" it through the net. Plus it's a public forum so I try to keep it a bit on the quiet side if you know what I mean.

Well the long and short of it is that it all works out in the end and what has happened? Maybe you and I made friends. So net gain dude! You live in Med? If so what part?

Tasting the world one hot pepper at a time!

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apeters says on Nov 2, 2009, 10:03:

thanks for the advice OFYM, it got me thinking..I will use it when I move to Colombia in a couple months.

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jimbo67856 says on Nov 2, 2009, 10:06:

Kenzie,

OMFG the worst damn substance is adrenaline. I hate that chit. I've made more bad decisions w/ that (well, that and testosterone jaja) than any alcohol. Okay wait, alcohol too. lol

Nah, I'm movin to CTG early next year but my stupid company sucks .... many nouns come to mind to finish that sentence. They can't seem to figure out between the lot of them if it's March or June. Ha, welcome to corporate America. Way to communicate, fellas. Good thing half of you have communications degrees and the other half has MBAs. They evidently mean a lot. ;)

Anways, we have work evidently (although keep in mind we're trusting my company) in Medellin. That's the 2nd stage of things (evidently). I'm so focking lost w/ what's what I could give you guesses which would prolly be more accurate. And yes, with all of the countries I move to this is how it goes. Good thing I was in the Marines and have no concept of forewarning. "First to go, last to know. Oo-rah?"

If you're in MDE I'll hit u up when I come there.

Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. ---- Thomas Jefferson

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kenziejones says on Nov 2, 2009, 10:24:

Sounds like a plan. Would be nice to go for a cervesa or seven. Stay in touch.

Tasting the world one hot pepper at a time!

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geoff71 says on Nov 2, 2009, 11:53:

same stuff happens in the u.s wasnt very long ago.. some man was lying down on a busy street,, for like 20 min.. might of been jersey or new york.. maybe it was hartford conn.. and i believe it was a hispanic man

one day at a time

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kenziejones says on Nov 2, 2009, 11:58:

It's not whether or not he/she is *found,* it's whether or not he/she receives proper care from professional authorities once found. I'm all for survival of the fittest and population control, but I can't quite get past helping a soul in need.

Tasting the world one hot pepper at a time!

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pavo says on Nov 2, 2009, 13:19:

Gotta just walk on by as foreigner in Colombia. Others aren´t stopping for a reason. Risk.

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kenziejones says on Nov 2, 2009, 13:54:

Pavo you're only partially correct. It takes a trained eye to determine scam/fraud/danger/heist from legitimate emergency.

Tasting the world one hot pepper at a time!

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dwmte7 says on Nov 2, 2009, 14:38:

good grief................if someone needs help, you help. anyone who's done police or fire work knows this. any civilian, who sees someone in need, does what they can. anyone who's dealt with war time situations...enjured buddies, civilians, enjured enemy. you help if and as much as you can. if you can't tell if someone is faking a serious injury, you don't know when it's time to go to the bathroom. what a thread.

patriarch

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Learnersrealm says on Nov 2, 2009, 15:39:

He should be proud of his actions. The problem not is about passers by not helping since she was being cared for already. The unfortunate state of Colombia is, as it is with many many other countries is their "so called" public services do not actually assist public without bias. Only those who can pay make it here. And pay very well.

Colombianos pay medical tax like it's going out of style. Try getting employment being a pregnant Colombian woman.
I have been a direct witness of such an emergency at a hospital and if you do not have 700000 pesos on you for deposit upfront well then forget about it. Charity hospitals may be different. That's just how it seems here.

Based on my 6 months here, this story doesnt really surprise me. Many NOT ALL Colombianos are very skeptical about who they help. They do the Maths, it is not an automated response to help like in Australia for instance because they are very cautious about a lot. My opinion is their tainted history and their over reliance on family for securidad makes them awkward about such things.

"The Spanish moon is rising on the hill But my heart is a-tellin' me I love ya still" - Bob Dylan (Abandoned Love)

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 3, 2009, 01:01:

Buongone says on Nov 3, 2009, 01:27:

What I don't understand is why did they take a blood sample? The rest is just like Gib said. Don't touch. Mind your own Business. In some states if you help. Move them wrongly. Hurt them even worst than they already are. You can be sued. Forget the Good Semeratain act. Maybe call the police or Ambulance. You better be careful. I have known people that had their fingers damn near biten off by trying to clear someones airway passage during a seizure. Not cool.

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jimbo67856 says on Nov 3, 2009, 03:50:

It's fine that people want to help. It's even better that many would call paramedics. But what's not fine is the insinuation that many would be "helping" by applying their own brand of medical assistance without knowing what works and frankly what kills. I guess I'm the "bad" guy here for saying only qualified medical personnel should render medical attention for serious problems, but I wonder what some Samaritans might do given a sucking chest wound, a heart attack, choking, bad burns, or even a seizure. If you're wrong about what to do you will "help" that person right into great pain or even a coma or death. For good reason a central theme in medical training around the globe is "first, do no harm."

It's like raging fires. Those are left to firefighters for a reason. Obviously they have the equipment, but as important is that throwing the wrong suppressant on the flames could actually make them worse and spread the fire - say water on a grease fire which creates a makeshift napalm-like reaction. So while I'm sure everyone would want to help put the fire out the fact is the property and those hopefully not still inside (and next door) are safer without someone guessing as to how to do it. Same is true for a victim of a serious medical emergency who needs skill, not guesses or even good intentions by themselves, to save them.

Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. ---- Thomas Jefferson

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barrumundi says on Nov 3, 2009, 04:10:

jimbo67856, what's your cell phone number? Next time I see an old homeless person taking a fit in the middle of the downtown Bogota rush hour, I'm goin to give you a call.....and you can talk me through it.

http://poorbuthappy.com/yourthing/post/uploading-photos-for-dummies/

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barrumundi says on Nov 3, 2009, 04:25:

jimbo67856, you said: I guess I'm the "bad" guy here for saying only qualified medical personnel should render medical attention for serious problems".

I would agree with that statement......and yes I am being a smartarse......but only to make a point.

I don't entirely disagree with what you are saying. I do agree that people who are not qualified to give first aid must be very careful that they don't do more harm than good.

But WHAT IF everyone did a recognised first-aid course?

If everyone took a course then they would have the confidence to help when they can and also they would have the knowledge to know what NOT to do in an emergency and they will learn to recognise a SERIOUS problem.

I recommend all adults to do a certified first-aid course. You never know.........the life you save may be a member of your own family! Learn how to recognise the signs of stroke or heart-attack. Learn CPR. Learn how to put pressure on a wound to slow bleeding. You won't be a paramedic and you won't be as qualified as jimbo but you might one day save a person's life.

First-aiders DO save lives.

http://poorbuthappy.com/yourthing/post/uploading-photos-for-dummies/

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oneforyourmillion says on Nov 3, 2009, 04:44:

This happened in El Centro? jaja Oh boy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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kenziejones says on Nov 3, 2009, 04:49:

this happened in Parque Lleras

Tasting the world one hot pepper at a time!

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oneforyourmillion says on Nov 3, 2009, 04:50:

Oh OK that is better. ;)

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jimbo67856 says on Nov 3, 2009, 06:31:

barrumundi, I never excluded anyone w/ first aid training from being qualified, in fact I never said anything either implying or stating that only EMTs may treat people. What I said was that unqualified personnel shouldn't be treating patients, and I further admitted that Kenzie's non-EMT certifications made him qualified. I said that explicitly. So clearly I already agreed with your point, but oddly you opted to ignore that and imply that if one isn't an EMT "like jimbo" that I must not be including them in my "qualified" definition. That's your assumption, however, and it's entirely wrong.

Look, I'm only opposed to untrained people trying to treat something as complex as a seizure. Why? B/c those who have no training w/ them often figure it's a great idea to slam a wallet into the victim's mouth, an act which merely serves to endanger your fingers and their teeth, gums, and most importantly their airway. If someone has any training which is adequate to the injury/condition in question, then they most certainly don't need to be an EMT, MD, or RN to perform emergency stabilization. But keep in mind I never said otherwise. I merely argued that untrained people should stay away from victims so they don't make things worse. I never defined what I meant by untrained, so you assuming I excluded first-aid and CPR folk from my definition is your assumption, nothing more.

Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. ---- Thomas Jefferson

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oneforyourmillion says on Nov 3, 2009, 06:54:

OH BT do they have a "good samaritan" law in Colombia of some type? I bet they don't.....

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 3, 2009, 06:57:

jimbo67856 says on Nov 3, 2009, 07:04:

kat, I think people might be misunderstanding what I'm saying, and I think I prolly misunderstood what others were saying. When I say "treat patients" I mean stuff like trying to perform actual medical techniques on them; things that most of us know require some sort of training (CPR for example). So yeah, most def people should stop and do what you're talking about. Anything less would be inhumane IMO. If I created the impression that people should just avoid victims I apologize. That's not at all what I meant. I'm not a savage. ;)

Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. ---- Thomas Jefferson

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oneforyourmillion says on Nov 3, 2009, 07:29:

I have helped people in the street. I have had some very bad experiences from doing so as well. Honestly it is dog eat dog and I will be very very carefull before I do it again. You just run a big risk that what you think your looking at is not the actual situation and can get mixed up in something that is none of your business and get very in trouble.

I hope that my very hard core advice will stick in some heads and you will be VERY VERY careful about how you respond to things in Colombia. People prey off of your kindness and as you rush in with all your adrenaline pumping you have a one tracked mind and that is to help. They just may have the adrenaline pumping in another direction and the mind tracked to do you harm and you are in deep trouble if tha tis the case. Just be careful with the whole superman complex while in Colombia.

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 3, 2009, 08:00:

barrumundi says on Nov 3, 2009, 16:02:

Kat that is a wonderful heart-warming story with a happy ending. Your sister did well in that she did not panic and she was able to find help close by. If she had first-aid training she would have been able to assist and help care for the mother and baby during the delivery. Maybe next time (not that this situation is likely to happen twice in your life) help may not be so close at hand. All adults should do a proper first-aid course.

http://poorbuthappy.com/yourthing/post/uploading-photos-for-dummies/

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oneforyourmillion says on Nov 4, 2009, 05:29:

Yes and how many people end up naked in the middle of the street in Sante Fe after gone missing for 2 weeks because they were nice enough to help a nice lady with directions? Much more common than the good stories beleive me. But if I saw a woman having a baby I hope I would know the difference between that and a scam but for sure I will tell you I would evaluate that situation very very very carefully, help yea I would but I would not turn my radar off and run in there to save the day.

PS For someone who may not know they put scoplamina on the paper where the directions are and then shove it in your face when you look at it and you are gone easy as pie. There are a number of these scams that prey on the good samaritan and not just in Colombia either but here it can be for a lot more than your wallet that you lose. To the best of my knowlege Scopolamina does not exist in this form in the US or Europe.

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Robert Jorge says on Nov 4, 2009, 22:46:

Scopolamina could easily be made in the US. The plants, Gypsum / Jymson weed grows wild all over the place. I don't know how the drug is rendered from the plant, but that's the plant it comes from. I knew of kids growing up that would make tea out of a seed pod and act like they had taken 20 microdots. Anyway, fortunately, the idea hasn't caught on yet here in the US.

"You can not take the barrio out of the girl you really can't." Oneforamillion

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dwmte7 says on Nov 5, 2009, 04:14:

robert................back in my early years of college, we would drink ashmador tea and go bonkers. you could buy it at the drug store. also there were ashmador cigarettes. if anyone read the casteneda series...'the teachings of don juan' et al, he calls it an ingredient in his 'little smoke'. he and don genero would give it to the apprentices.

when you take this stuff, the 'little people' come jumping outta trees, outta the ground....a real hallucinogen, but on the wierd side.

patriarch

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oneforyourmillion says on Nov 5, 2009, 04:18:

There was a utube video of a guy coming to Colombia and looking up scopolamina to try as a recreational drug. jiji Idiot.....What he found was that their was no rereation in it just a lot of misery.

Still though it is amazing that it has not hit the US. Except for the CIA using it in inerigation back in the day beofre that barbarian use of water to torture people......bla.........

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El Expatriado says on Nov 6, 2009, 04:16:

I was a scam. I was there and My Novia was too, and she said it was here poor old aunt, and could I please give her a $100 a month for her epilepsy medicine.

First installment of which she spent in Studio "F".

So you think onefor your million is a cynical old bastard?

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El Expatriado says on Nov 6, 2009, 04:16:

I think the cops and ambuance driver were all in on it, too.

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oneforyourmillion says on Nov 6, 2009, 04:53:

well first of all I am not old.

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El Expatriado says on Nov 7, 2009, 04:41:

Your only as old as the woman you feel.

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