Cost of living (trying to figure out fair amount for child support)

ColombianoGringo says on Jul 4, 2008, 11:36:

I am bumping this so it will go into the "active" list and people will see it. I applaud your commitment to support the child. While I am intimately familiar with Colombia and travel there very frequently, I don't currently live there, so I will defer to current residents to provide you with more precise information.

It would be really important to specify the city where she lives. The cost of living can vary tremendously from place to place. If you know the general area or neighborhood within the city, that would be even more helpful.

If nobody provides satisfactory information, send me a message through the site and I will ask some relatives and friends in Colombia for some current figures.

Good luck,
CG

0 funny, 0 helpful.

MaFe says on Jul 4, 2008, 11:39:

I wish you luck and hope that you do get the DNA test.

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Jul 4, 2008, 11:45:

To be able to provide information on your particular case (gods it's good to read that there are honorable people still left in the world) people would want to know:

where does the future mother of your child live? (have the test done asa pre requisite to any finacial commitment from your part)

what does she do for a living?

does she have the support of her family to raise up this child?

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

0 funny, 0 helpful.

CatGirl says on Jul 4, 2008, 11:48:

Hola Mafe!..Nice you brought this up CG (the original CG that is, jeje)

Mr. Aloha - once you are able to clarify for the PBH posters your area etc...about "guestimations" of costs. I would hope that you have tangible proof of pregnancy and wait until the baby is into the second trimester for this proof (pregnancy blood test and ultrasound) before you send money (if this is your idea)

But I would also think it might be a really good idea that if after the baby is born and the HLA typing test is completed (this is not cheap as far as I know) - you ensure the arrangements through the judicial system. Maybe Gator might know? But, if you want to be part the this child's life and you really do not know the mother....better you think ahead or you might regret many things later ;(...Good Luck

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

0 funny, 0 helpful.

jonas says on Jul 4, 2008, 12:07:

You may want to ask her if she has an EPS (health insurance) since she might have to go see the doctor a lot during pregnancy. If she has a regular job she should have a mandatory EPS.

What I have, I do not want to lose, but Where I am I do not want to stay, but those I love, I do not want to leave, but those I know I no longer want to see, but Where I die, I do not want to go;I want to stay where I have never been

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Azul says on Jul 4, 2008, 12:07:

Aloha, it is great that you want to help support your child. I applaud you. But a word of caution, make sure that your ex has been honest with you and that it is actually your child. This is a common scam that some Colombianas use get money from an ex Gringo boyfriend. So just be careful.
The sad truth is that if you were a Colombian father, you probably wouldn't pay anything (or very little) at all. The father of my girlfriends daughter sends her about 40 mil COP every couple of months....when the dead beat feels generous I guess. jajaja

las cosas caen por su propio peso

0 funny, 0 helpful.

aloha50 says on Jul 4, 2008, 12:14:

Many for the comments so far. To clarify, she lives in Bogotá, currently staying at her mother's place (not a particularly ideal situation, since she and her mother have a somewhat difficult relationship). I actually don't know what neighborhood she lives in--I'll have to ask her--because she receives her mail at a different address.

She has worked in restaurants and retail stores, but that has been sporadic (especially now that she is very visibly pregnant).

0 funny, 0 helpful.

MaFe says on Jul 4, 2008, 12:20:

catgirl is right...I have a cousin who was married a few years and had two beautiful children. His wife was preganant with the third pregnancy, his little girl would tell him that when he went to work a police man would come by the house. My cousin started to "go to work" and caught her cheating. He was going to accept the third child but we all came down on him hard! When the DNA results came back it wasn't his child!

Best thing to do is get that DNA!

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

0 funny, 0 helpful.

CatGirl says on Jul 4, 2008, 12:56:

Azul: This is a common scam that some Colombianas use get money from an ex Gringo boyfriend. So just be careful

Azul, you made MANY good helpful points in your comments BTW - especially the comment about what some Colombiano Padres might do. But, I Must point out...although, not to "discount" your comment. I think the OP will find that this is common in many situations no matter "what" the Nationality of the mother or father is if you think about it. This situation only becomes more complicated because you live in two different countries and really dont truly know each other (correct?).

I have a question for the OP, did You offer to help or did she ask or initiate or did it "just come up in a conversation, or did you just get the news and are now just trying to think about things? If you have not discussed money - I would strongly recommend you just remain supportive and relaxed. Ask her what her plans are and get an idea of her mindset as this unfolds.

Jonas commented "You may want to ask her if she has an EPS (health insurance) since she might have to go see the doctor a lot during pregnancy. If she has a regular job she should have a mandatory EPS."

This is a good suggestion, but really - unless there are complications etc...she may not need too much until she is "well along into the pregnancy" - she needs to take vitamins etc...

Also - I am not clear on Colombian laws in this area, but in the US when a child is born the mother can say pretty much anyone is the father and it is documented as the father! Once on the birth certificate - Boom. I have seen copies of Colombian birth certificates - the ones I have seen, the father has signed. Curious what this is in Colombia? But if you are required to sign or she can state the fathers name - if possible, you might want to arrange this test before your name is placed on the birth certificate to save you grief!

Where is our wonderful Gator? Although, I thnk mi Amiga Mafe has some legal experience too ;))

Also - Aloha "she receives her mail at a different address."

Why does she receive mail at a different address? this is odd. Hmmm. I will wait to see your answer to this before I comment or suggest something ;)

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

0 funny, 0 helpful.

bamacellist says on Jul 4, 2008, 13:17:

Legally, the amount of child support owed is calculated using a formula and based on your income. If you make X amount of dollars you will be legally obligated to pay a certain minimum amount according to the number of children involved. Accepting you want to do this amicably and with a desire to do what is best for the child (assuming it is shown to be yours), you could check into it with your state government. Most states have this information available on the internet. Legally it doesn't matter that she's in Colombia and you're not. Legally you are obligated to pay according to the jurisdiction in which you reside. She can theoretically apply for this if she can figure out how. There isn't a treaty between Colombia and the US which offers her any help in collecting if it were to come to that, but I wonder if maybe you would consider looking into it simply because you want to do what's right and best for this child who is, after all, innocent in the matter.

"The future is much like the present, only longer."

0 funny, 0 helpful.

CatGirl says on Jul 4, 2008, 13:25:

Good point Bamacellist - I was not aware of this info hmmm. So this would mean that if a Colombian Padre moves to EEUU to make more $$ and his children are in Colombia...the support goes up!

But another thing? If the OP wants to be part of the child's life, arrangements to see the child may become problematic if the mother is "problematic"...again it will come out in time. Her personality could change many times over during this process ;(

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

0 funny, 0 helpful.

ColombianoGringo says on Jul 4, 2008, 13:26:

Bama, I looked into this for a friend in a somewhat opposite situation. Her ex-husband moved to the US and stopped paying any child support for their daughter. This guy was in Florida and I called the Florida State Attorney General's office and various other state agencies. They also said that the US and Colombia don't have any kind of agreement to enforce or track child support payments and that the mother would have to find a way to come to Colombia to file a legal action against the father. Even with that, it would be difficult to enforce. The guy basically blew her off and there was little to nothing she could do.

Also, those formulas are based on the US cost of living and would not be reasonable for this situation. For example, I have two kids from my first marriage. The formula in Texas is that they take 25% of your post tax net income up to a maximum $1,500 a month. They also allow you to deduct the children's insurance from that net amount. Apparently, this is only a state "standard" and not an actual law. If you are very rich, I imagine they could make you pay a lot more.

Consequently, I pay the $1,500 max plus a few hundred for their medical and dental insurance. While this amount is perfectly reasonable in the US, it would be an outrageous amount for child support in Colombia. The mother, the kids and a few extra family members could live pretty well off that. That is not the purpose of child support. My point is that the amount in this case should be a fair sum considering the cost of living in Colombia. I think that the OP is following a reasonable method to arrive at a fair amount.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

CatGirl says on Jul 4, 2008, 13:35:

Phew! That sounds better CG. It is sad when you think about it (your friends situation).

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

0 funny, 0 helpful.

miamimike says on Jul 4, 2008, 13:36:

Aloha50--Sorry to hear of your bad luck but nice to see you accepting responsibility IN the event the DNA Tests prove the child is yours. In addition to the Good Advice you already have received here and if the Child is yours, I would have ANY Money paid by you to be administered via a 3rd Person like a competent Attorney OF YOUR CHOOSING. I would NOT hand the Cash DIRECTLY to this Lady and I would make her provide your attorney(in the event you pay) with a detailed list of Receipts for any money spent.

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

bamacellist says on Jul 4, 2008, 13:46:

I have looked into this as well for the sake of someone in Colombia. While there is no treaty between the US and Colombia which guarantees governmental help at the national level (this is something that exists for some), it should be possible for anyone from overseas to file for child support from a parent living in the US, provided they can manage the logistics. They should also be able to have the court handle the collection and disbursement of it as in any other case. The problem there is the logistics. There are some states which offer to do this for free, without a lawyer, but most of them would require physical presence at some point during the process at least to sign the papers.

I don't kow what to say about fairness. There are two ways to look at it. I understand the idea that it costs less to raise the child in Colombia, therefore... it's not invalid, but my own personal experience with raising three children without much help from their darling mother leaves me feeling a little disrespectful of those who look at this as a game to see how little they can get away with paying. I'm not going to be too harsh about someone who appears to be trying to figure out how to do the right thing, though :)

"The future is much like the present, only longer."

0 funny, 0 helpful.

bamacellist says on Jul 4, 2008, 13:58:

I can also say from my own experience that if they can all talk and agree to something, everyone will be infinitely happier and better off and that would definitely be the very best thing for this child!

"The future is much like the present, only longer."

0 funny, 0 helpful.

MaFe says on Jul 4, 2008, 15:01:

miamimike says on Jul 4, 2008, 13:36: flag

Aloha50--Sorry to hear of your bad luck but nice to see you accepting responsibility IN the event the DNA Tests prove the child is yours. In addition to the Good Advice you already have received here and if the Child is yours, I would have ANY Money paid by you to be administered via a 3rd Person like a competent Attorney OF YOUR CHOOSING. I would NOT hand the Cash DIRECTLY to this Lady and I would make her provide your attorney(in the event you pay) with a detailed list of Receipts for any money spent.
====

This is great advice! NEVER EVER give her cash...EVER...
Don't sign any certifiate until you have verified the baby is your baby..

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

0 funny, 0 helpful.

aloha50 says on Jul 4, 2008, 15:12:

Thanks for all of the tips. Aside from the legal/technical aspects of this, where I feel reasonably comfortable (there will be a DNA test right away after the birth to confirm paternity, and I have engaged a Colombian attorney who came well-recommended to draft a support agreement assuming the DNA test is positive, etc.), what I'd really like if possible are some points of reference regarding current costs of living in Bogotá.

The birth is coming up in a couple of months, and although she has not been pushy about money I know that she is quite anxious about her financial situation, so I'd like to be able to make a determination about what amount I would send each month and communicate that to her. (My philosophy in this case is that it is best to assume that she is honest in identifying me as the father--and based on the time frames and the amount of time we spent together I would be surprised if I am not--and keep things on friendly terms, while protecting myself by making any financial arrangements or promises contingent upon the results of the DNA test.) To do that, I'd like to have some unbiased information about what things really cost in Bogotá. I realize that a judge would not care about my opinion of what I'm "willing" to pay, but I think she, the child, and I would all be better off if we can come up with a fair and reasonable arrangement without ending up in court, and that is what I would like to try to do.

So...going back to my original post, is there anybody out there who lives in Colombia (or has lived there recently) who might be able to provide some cost information from personal observation?

Again, thanks for all the tips and information.

P.S. In answer to one of the other questions, I believe she does have medical insurance (that was one of the main reasons she moved back to Colombia after finding out that she was pregnant). She does not have a regular job, so I believe she had to pay separately for the insurance, but I don't know how much.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Philly says on Jul 4, 2008, 16:57:

Hello, you received very good advice from a lot of good people. I know a lot of people in Bogota, if you want, send me an email and we can talk in more private. I can have her checked up to see if she is on the up and up. Now, to answer your question. First, I am not sure of your financial situation, but if you can handle it I would send her around 500.00 dollars a month. That would cover any and everything for the baby. You really could get away with less, 400.00 dollars, but the 500.00 will set the baby up for success. The 500 would cover a nice day care and later school, clothes, medical,transportation, and a little extra for your ex. Good luck.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

CatGirl says on Jul 4, 2008, 17:20:

This is an odd thread ... things are not making sense all of a sudden

I believe she does have medical insurance (that was one of the main reasons she moved back to Colombia after finding out that she was pregnant). She does not have a regular job, so I believe she had to pay separately for the insurance, but I don't know how much.

Ok - you "believe", yet this is the reason she moved back? Sounds vague, I guess you two are not 100% on the same page?

Wots up with this $400.00 and $500.00 monthly payments? I see this as a common quoted amount on PBH posts posts to "support" others in Colombia. Hmm

I know fathers in CA (cost of living is high here!) and have seen fathers in court that pay less than that in the US for child support. So, do what you want, but I see this amount recommended all the time for some reason. I would think you could get a more solid answer to your cost of living question from a better resource than this forum? What are typical Colombian fathers paying? I would be suprised it is $400.00 a month average.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Philly says on Jul 4, 2008, 18:04:

CatGirl, with all do respect. I am living here in Colombia and speaking from experience. I, personally have never seen those amounts posted here. The man asked for our help with our experience. If anyone in the States is paying less then that, he does not have a good job. I would say now the average American makes about 500 to 900 dollars a week. ColombianoGringo " I pay the $1,500 max plus a few hundred for their medical and dental insurance".If the man who is asking for help is in that range, he can afford to pay 400 to 500 dollars a month. Now, please do not ask me for any facts on the average salary because I do not have any, however, I know when I was in the States, I was in the later part of the salary range. No disrespect CatGirl, but when you start wearing pants and paying child support, you can make a comment here.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

MaFe says on Jul 4, 2008, 18:07:

I don't think the average Colombian is paying $500 on child support...
Are we not seeing that the average salary there is about $500 a MONTH?

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

0 funny, 0 helpful.

CatGirl says on Jul 4, 2008, 19:05:

Philly_ No disrespect CatGirl, but when you start wearing pants and paying child support, you can make a comment here.

How do you know I have not paid child support? Hmmm??? Uhhhh - no disrespect, but how do I or anyone here know what You have in your pants? Cyberworld.
You seem a bit sensitve to my comment about your $$ "quote" - watsup?

But I most certainly would not and have not given any specific amount on this thread. You pulled an amount out of your pocket.

The Op was asking for cost of living - I see Rubito attempted to answer

No! you were telling the OP how much they should pay.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

0 funny, 0 helpful.

MaFe says on Jul 4, 2008, 19:05:

I agree with CG

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

0 funny, 0 helpful.

dwmte7 says on Jul 4, 2008, 19:50:

all depends on whether you want to litigate this issue...and, WHERE, you litigate it.

colombia and the u.s. are co-significators to a treaty which obliges both parties to accept the ruling of the other's court....what ever it is.

finding an attorney you can trust in colombia can be difficult. many want butter on both sides of their bread. they often work against you while they're working for you.

if the child is DNA positive, you, possibly the two of you can arrive at an aggreement that works for both of you. however, you need stipulations dealing with your parental rights...if these are not in place, your chances of having a healthy open relation with your child are nil to zip. especially since, someday downstream, the lady will have a relationship with someone else and, inevitably, that works against the absent parent.

soooo, friend, dot the "i", cross the "t" and keep the spirit you're already possessed of and you and the child and the lady will go forward happily and easily.

dwmte

0 funny, 0 helpful.

briarblue says on Jul 4, 2008, 20:43:

If one were to put some credence in Rubito's comments in a different thread that $1,500.000 - 2,000.000 COP is a good estimate of middle class monthly income in Bogota, then would it be reasonable to provide 25% - 50% of this amount per month as support for one's child?

0 funny, 0 helpful.

CatGirl says on Jul 4, 2008, 21:48:

Briarblue...where are you getting these percentages?

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Robert Jorge says on Jul 4, 2008, 21:55:

Get out now. Clean break - you are blessed. Send money for the baby if she can prove that it is really your's. You can not believe what these chicks will do to gain financial support and or advantage of their F-ed up situation.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

0 funny, 0 helpful.

CatGirl says on Jul 4, 2008, 22:16:

Briarblu: BTW - I am not mocking your percentages, but curious where the idea came from, I mean I just plugged in what I would get if someone gave me only 25% of what I get (avg pay, which should be comparable to avg there - correct? )- Whhoohoo!!! That's a great percentage.....if based on avg income. i would love someone to send me that much a month!!!! FYI it is about 6-7 times greater than the avg monthly amounts I have seen paid in CA for one child.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

0 funny, 0 helpful.

bamacellist says on Jul 4, 2008, 23:21:

Assuming still this is a legitimate request, which has become somewhat difficult, I have a question for the poster. Why didn't you ask your Colombian attorney what he would suggest? That's something that any attorney practicing family law does 10 times a day.

That you can't answer some basic questions about this woman's situation does not bode well for your ability, nor reflect well on your intention to maintain a productive level of communication with her nor a supportive relationship with the child.

Why does it matter so much what it costs to live in Bogota? At some point you've got to decide how much you can afford. Why not start with that? How much do you think you can afford without suffering too much? You should expect to suffer a little since we're talking about another human being who isn't arriving as a result of anything he did. Have you used any of the online child support calculators to get an idea? For a single guy grossing $2000 a month and having no custodial obligation towards the child, support for 1 child will run between $380 and $400 a month according to the couple I tried. If you add expected costs for daycare and health insurance, it will go up. Her income is irrelevant in these calculations, btw. Even if she's a millionaire, your child is still entitled to your support as well. Go to an official calculator on a state government website, don't use the one from alllaw.com. It gives some funky results if you fill in some of the fields. If you can live with the figures they provide, then offer her that and explain where you got the figure. If you think you can't, ask yourself if that's the truth or just selfishness. If you really think you can't, then you can start looking into what is the cost of living in Bogota. Of course you might ask her to sit down and figure out what she calculates would be a good figure based on her estimation of the costs of providing for her child. After all, she's in Bogota. If you want to participate in the life of your child you had better start communicating with her. Just a thought.

"The future is much like the present, only longer."

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Philly says on Jul 5, 2008, 04:23:

CatGirl, good come back, but as you can see most of the comments go back to the figure I suggested. It was only a suggestion, NO MAS. The 400 to 500 dollars a month I truely believe will take care of the baby and will cover any cost of living increases for a few years.
CatGirl, you never mentioned in any your your comments having experience, you seemed at lost with the process. So, I put 2 and 2 together and got 4. YOU HAVE NO EXPERIENCE!!!!

0 funny, 0 helpful.

huskie says on Jul 5, 2008, 04:53:

I agree with Mafe and Miamimike, if in fact the child is yours. Get yourself a good and honest lawyer and stablish some kind of trust, that only he can administrate and make sure the money goes only for the childs upbringing.
Cheers

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds-"

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Philly says on Jul 5, 2008, 06:01:

Huskie, that I believe is the big problem with the child support process. You can never make sure the money only goes to the kid. Example, I was paying child support for my daugher for 12 years and she had no idea I was paying it. Her mother was using the money for herself and her other kid. I actually had to show my daughter my pay stubs to prove to her that in fact I was paying support. Huskie, this guy can only hope and pray that the girls does the right thing. How can this guy trust this girl, look at the situation. He does not even know all of her details.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

huskie says on Jul 5, 2008, 06:21:

Yeah, he is in a horrible situation, I agree, I hope he finds solutions for this.
Cheers

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds-"

0 funny, 0 helpful.

briarblue says on Jul 5, 2008, 06:24:

CatGirl, I didn't get the percentages used in my question from any statistical study or research. In asking my question of whether it would be reasonable to provide 25% - 50% of a middle class income, I considered the following: the OP indicated that the soon-to-be mother has not had regular employment and that the jobs she's had have been in restuarants and retail; the OP indicated that in providing support, he would like to use a middle class (in Colombia) standard of living as a point of reference; his list of items for soliciting various costs included apartment rent, schooling (reasonably good standard), clothing, furniture items, etc.; the apartment rent results from her moving out from her mother's place into her own apartment (i.e., she isn't already paying from her own earnings).

I wouldn't be surprised to find a non-custodial parent paying 12% - 18% of gross monthly income in the States as child support, where the gross monthly income is $2,000 - $3,000 USD a month. Comparatively, my question of asking whether 25%-50% seems reasonable appears to be grossly on the high side.

But, here's my take...... if the soon-to-be mother works sporadically and doesn't earn that much, currently lives with her mother, etc., and I want to help provide for a safe, clean apartment, and I want my child to enjoy a standard more closely aligned with a middle class income in Bogota....then I am probably gonna have to come-up with more than what I would otherwise. I just don't see a way around it (given the facts), unless I change my mind about wanting my child to enjoy the benefits of a middle class standard of living (Bogota) and to live alone with the mother and not with the grandmother or other family.

If I just want to chip-in on some costs while momma and baby live with grandma, then 12%-15% probably would go a long way....but if my desire is to do more, including helping with an apartment and providing some middle class benefits, then the 12-15% is probably gonna fall short.

I have a hunch that we're probably talking about the difference between a monthly support range of $180.000 - $300.000 COP and one that is $600.000 - $900.000 COP. I would think that the former would represent a reasonable amount of chipping-in support, while the latter would raise it to a level that would afford some of the "middle class" benefits in Bogota.

Again, just a hunch---don't have any links or empircial research data.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

dwmte7 says on Jul 5, 2008, 08:21:

if i were the dad, aloha, i might give this whole issue a 're-think'...that's exactly what i'm doing, and the more i listen and read here, the more distasteful this whole issue becomes.

you stated you carried on a relationship with this lady for some while, but that it didn't seem to be a match made in heaven. too, that she told you she was pregnant with your child.

well, she was apparently good enough to carry on a relationship with....but now that pregnancy enters the equation, you're gone and demanding a dna test. although, you'[re saying that you want to do right by the child (if it's your's) what about the mother??????

what i see is you sitting back apparently revelling in the fact that every one is on your side and allowing this crufixion of the mother. boy would i like to hear her side of this. you want to do right by your child? marry the mother, they're inextricably one.

i concede, young friend, all of life is colored by our own history and our own eyes. and i openly and forthwith confess this is so with me. i have 8 children from seven mothers. and without exception, when one of the mother's became pregnant by me, i married her. no exceptions. if it was good enough to become procreative, it deserved my honest and best intention....which i gave. and, without exception, i stayed with each mother while she could put up with me. apparently, i'm a hard act to keep up with...

now back to the issue after that aside.

i don't imagine anyone ever told you or for that matter ever told anyone else, life is easy, it's a bowl of honey, and folks are like peas in a pod. even though we weren't told this, somehow we got it in our head along the line and believed it. hog wash. it's fantasy rubbish. too, that love happens to some and not to others....more rubbish. the whole damn world walks around acting like "LOVE" is a noun.....more rubbish. it ain't a noun, it's a "VERB", which makes it, HARD WORK. it's a full time job that takes the most serious of attention every day. it works when you LOVE. and if you're really LOVING, their ain't one moment to stop and think about how much you're getting, 'cause, you're just to busy loving.

i've been married now to wife # 7 for 19 years. we got divorced once, but since this time i got married in the church(im catholic) this was the end of the line. i told my wife that maybe i'm hard to be with, but if we can't be together, i'm livin down the block, cause our daugher needs both of us. period. we got remarried....i just wouldn't go away.

so, aloha, give this some soul searching, compassionate, review...deep review. you hold the formative, internal and external lives of all three of you in your hands. make it a miraculous destiny, not one of indifference. and offishness. don't let these folks come down on the mother of your child without being a true prince and coming to her defense...because, if you don't, you ain't, in reality, worth much, and the real queen is the mother.

good luck to all of you

dwmte

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Philly says on Jul 5, 2008, 08:40:

Damn

0 funny, 0 helpful.

MaFe says on Jul 5, 2008, 08:42:

I don't think anyone should marry just because they have a pregnancy! You marry because you both want it and feel "love" or something deep for each other.
If you marry her just because she is pregnant you are setting yourself up for disaster. Sure it's the right thing to do but don't unless you are 100% sure.
Get your DNA, and from there decide what to do. Just don't give in to sending an unrealistic amount!

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

0 funny, 0 helpful.

rhydewithdis says on Jul 5, 2008, 08:52:

OP - just one thing to remember in your calculations. When you are supporting them, you should support them figuring in COP terms, not USD.

If you commit to sending 300k COP or 900k COP, then that is your commitment. You need to figure it out yourself how you are going to manage the risk of currency fluctuations.

I would say one thing you could get out of this yourself is Colombian citizenship. At the very least you have something to show for all this drama. From an administrative standpoint, you should open up an account with Citi. Direct deposit or automatically transfer the set monthly amount you have determined from a different account INTO the Citi account. Give your baby's mama the corresponding Citi ATM card and PIN so she can withdraw the funds from one of the many Citi branches throughout Bogota.
- you will have NO ATM fees when you withdraw from a Citi ATM ($1.50 otherwise)
- foreign conversion fee will cost 2%, which increases to 3% beginning August 2008.

You can probably find something better than this, take a look here: http://www.flyerguide.com/wiki/index.php/Credit/Debit/ATM_Cards_and_Fo...

They said I couldn't play football I was too small / They say I couldn't play basketball I wasn't tall / They say I couldn't play baseball at all / And now everyday of my life I ball.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

dwmte7 says on Jul 5, 2008, 09:33:

it sounds paltry little, but the average paid by an absentee parent in colombia is less than 100,000 cp. life's tough there. the whole country isn't like the struggling middle class in bogota. contact beinestar de familia in colombia and get their take....after you do your rethink.

someone there(back home in colombia) can get their link.

dwmte

0 funny, 0 helpful.

dwmte7 says on Jul 5, 2008, 09:39:

here, brother, try this.....

www.icbf.gov.co/espanol/colombia.asp

if you do the route of the courts because the route of the heart is too dificult, do it in the u.s. as the col. govt is obliged to follow the order of the court here. too, you wont have to deal with some attorney you can't trust. you can basically stipulate at the hearing what you want to do/will do, as she won't be there to contest the action. then, you have the power of the order behind you and all are obliged to live up to the letter. the draw back on this is that she can take you to task for it.

all of this is moot if the two of you take a different look at life and decide a different path. i, nor others can walk for you...but, however, we can walk along with you. peace, douglas

dwmte

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Azul says on Jul 5, 2008, 10:04:

rhydewithdis, how does being a father of a Colombian born baby translate into citizenship for him?

las cosas caen por su propio peso

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Monita Linda says on Jul 5, 2008, 11:04:

Honestly when I see the $$ figures here it drives me nuts...

HOLD ON.. Colombia is NOT the states... and if the girl has "on and off" jobs as you say, then her personal income of those jobs will be between 400,000 and 500,000 if not less (yes people work for less).

So if you want to help her, help her to HER standard. So that would be MAX 200,000 a month.. MAXIMUM!!!!

If you want to send her like 500,000 - 1,000,000 COP be my guest, you just gave your lady a real nice life, she won't have to work, will live a nice standard and no financial worries.. just like.. PARADISE.. a nice and free life..

0 funny, 0 helpful.

MaFe says on Jul 5, 2008, 11:07:

Azul says on Jul 5 (today): flag

rhydewithdis, how does being a father of a Colombian born baby translate into citizenship for him?
====
The baby will automatically qualify for American Citizenship!


Monita Linda says on Jul 5 (today): flag

Honestly when I see the $$ figures here it drives me nuts...

HOLD ON.. Colombia is NOT the states... and if the girl has "on and off" jobs as you say, then her personal income of those jobs will be between 400,000 and 500,000 if not less (yes people work for less).

So if you want to help her, help her to HER standard. So that would be MAX 200,000 a month.. MAXIMUM!!!!

If you want to send her like 500,000 - 1,000,000 COP be my guest, you just gave your lady a real nice life, she won't have to work, will live a nice standard and no financial worries.. just like.. PARADISE.. a nice and free life..

====

Finally! I agree with monita linda 100%!

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Azul says on Jul 5, 2008, 11:39:

MaFe says on Jul 5 (today): flag
The baby will automatically qualify for American Citizenship!

Yes, that is well know. But that is not what rhydewithdis said.
His comment was "I would say one thing you could get out of this yourself is Colombian citizenship", and my question was how having a colombian born child would translate into citizenship (Colombian) for the father.

las cosas caen por su propio peso

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Azul says on Jul 5, 2008, 11:40:

And I also agree with Monita Linda 0

las cosas caen por su propio peso

0 funny, 0 helpful.

MaFe says on Jul 5, 2008, 12:11:

I missed that azul sorry.

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Azul says on Jul 5, 2008, 12:15:

No worries MaFe....
If that statement were true there would be a lot more Gringos walking around with Colombian citizenship jajaja

las cosas caen por su propio peso

0 funny, 0 helpful.

dwmte7 says on Jul 5, 2008, 13:09:

yawn

dwmte

0 funny, 0 helpful.

MaFe says on Jul 5, 2008, 13:10:

DWM would you like some agua panela o chocolate to keep u up? je je

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Monita Linda says on Jul 5, 2008, 14:00:

I think he needs something stronger....

0 funny, 0 helpful.

CatGirl says on Jul 5, 2008, 18:12:

Briarblue: thanks, good answer and clarification

Philly: you are dead wrong about your comments regarding my experience btw. assumptions will get you in some bad situations, as you already have learned?. Why you derailed and attacked me is something you can discuss with a therapist. Your personal negative comments towards me were outta line and I did not warrant them. I will leave it at that. I think that your comments speak for your true character.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

0 funny, 0 helpful.

CatGirl says on Jul 5, 2008, 18:14:

Bamacellist & Douglas to you both- Great and honest feedback to the OP ;))

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

0 funny, 0 helpful.

dwmte7 says on Jul 5, 2008, 18:39:

well thank you, dear....that's what we're here for......

mafe, what ever you're serving will be just fine. and kitty....if you show em thin skin, they'll never let up on you. it's a 'kink' in their nature.

dwmte

0 funny, 0 helpful.

CatGirl says on Jul 5, 2008, 19:10:

and yet again, more great feedback, gracias

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Robert Jorge says on Jul 5, 2008, 20:09:

Monita Linda is spot on.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

0 funny, 0 helpful.

MaFe says on Jul 5, 2008, 22:26:

dwmte7 says on Jul 5 (today): flag

well thank you, dear....that's what we're here for......

mafe, what ever you're serving will be just fine. and kitty....if you show em thin skin, they'll never let up on you. it's a 'kink' in their nature.

I will serve whatever you like...I am a good hostess..que prefieres chiquito?

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Philly says on Jul 6, 2008, 01:40:

You still have not stated your experience CatGirl. Nothing is ever personal here, well at least for me it isn´t.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

dwmte7 says on Jul 6, 2008, 04:32:

huevos fresco del campo y quesito y arepas. oh! y ti.

dwmte

0 funny, 0 helpful.

gringoloid says on Jul 6, 2008, 07:44:

c'mon people, this is bogus!

0 funny, 0 helpful.

aloha50 says on Jul 6, 2008, 15:40:

Wow. I had no idea my little problem would generate so much response, and I'm really sorry for those of you who got flamed for giving me your well-intentioned 2 cents...that certainly wasn't my intent.

I don't think I can reply to everything that was stated/asked, but I'll take a crack at giving my thoughts/info on some of it...

Yes, I am a real person who really is in the situation I described, trying to figure out how best to get on with life (mine, the mother's and that of the child-to-be) in the best way possible and simply seeking some information to help me make decisions. Joining a message board to write bogus posts wouldn't seem to me to be a very fun form of entertainment...except for necessary use for work and for seeking information, as well as keeping in touch with friends, I try to spend as much of my time as possible away from my computer.

I can't fully explain why I'm not aware of some of the details that, some of you have pointed out, I probably should know. However, some of the factors include the fact that my Spanish isn't all that great, especially when it comes to discussing things like medical care, insurance, etc; the fact that we haven't been able to get a really good telephone connection (not entirely sure if it is her cell phone, the calling services that I've used--various calling cards Skype, or what); and the fact that I've been operating in a bit of a surreal daze the last few months (mostly due to the news of the pregnancy, but also getting re-adjusted to life back in the US with a busy/stressful job and other things) and have just recently begun to really focus and engage on planning for the future.

Yes, the attorney I have been in touch with did offer his guidance on likely support amounts and costs-of-living. I opted to ask this forum first because, although he came recommended (with two degrees of separation) by the most sensible attorney I know here in the states, and although I developed a good degree of trust with him, I wanted to get other points of reference on the costs. This is too important a matter to rely on one person's opinion only, especially for facts that would seemingly be pretty easy to check (such as how much various things cost in Colombia). Rather than prejudice the question by writing the estimates he had provided, I decided to ask the question in an open-ended fashion. That said, here were his estimates (delivered with lots of caveats about it depending on the particulars of the child's needs and other factors):

likely range of initial monthly support: 350,000 - 950,000 COP

"nice" apartment in "good" area": 500,000 COP
groceries: 250,000 COP
utilities: 100,000 COP
school: 200,000 COP

So the upshot seems to be that there is quite a lot of variability (but heck, if I asked a pool of my friends how much different things cost them per month here in the U.S., I bet there'd be a lot of variability too, based on tastes/priorities, income, and how well they actually know where they spend their money). That said, the guidance you all have given doesn't seem that far off from what the attorney indicated. The biggest wild card would seem to be housing, and for that maybe I'll just have to operate with some uncertainty until I can go to Colombia and see for myself what you get at different levels of rent...but the numbers provided here really do help me get a bit of an understanding.

rhydewithdis: thanks for the idea of avoiding transfer fees by setting up a US bank account and mailing an ATM card...that's an interesting idea I hadn't thought of before, but I'll think about the pros and cons. Thanks also for the point about the currency, which I agree with and had thought of at one point earlier but haven't given further consideration. Given that there will be a relatively well-known future obligation to pay in COP, in theory it ought to be possible to buy a currency hedge, but I imagine this might be fairly expensive for an individual to do this for relatively small amounts (vs. a company dealing with receivables/payables in the $100Ks or millions) and for such a long time (18 years!) into the future. If anybody has tips in this regard, though, I'd certainly welcome them...at this point I don't have a starting point other than Google.

dwmte7: thanks for the link, but it doesn't work when I click it. I can go to the main page (www.icbf.gov.co) and will poke around there, but if you can point me to how to navigate to the specific information you were alluding to, that would be great. In any case, the attorney in Colombia as well as two family lawyers I've talked with here all gave the consistent guidance that the law follows the child (so Colombian courts would govern, and any support agreement should be drawn up according to Colombian law) and that the foreign court orders on these matters would be enforceable in the U.S. albeit perhaps with difficulty. In any case, I want to avoid having this go to court, because I don't think that kind of contentiousness would be good for anyone involved.

Nope, I'm definitely not enjoying any "crucifixion" of the mother. Although I certainly would prefer not to be so closely tied to somebody who I knew for a fairly short time, from what I have seen she is basically a good person who is scared about the future of her and her child. While she is not perfect, for now I am going to give her the benefit of the doubt, while taking some reasonable precaution to avoid being duped in the event that she does prove to be manipulative. Moreover, regardless of any bad behavior that mom might exhibit in the future, that's won't be the fault of the child (of course, as some posters have pointed out, if the mom takes the child support and uses it for luxuries for herself then the money will not have done the child any good...that's a problem I'll have to deal with if I see it). At the end of the day, where there's gray area, I'll personally probably lean toward erring a bit on the side of generosity to help the child and risk feeling like a fool (rather than a neglectful asshole). In order to reduce the risk of feeling like either, I'll try to reduce the gray area by staying as informed as I can about the actual situation with her and the child in Colombia.

To bamacellists point regarding basing child support off of what I can afford to pay rather than what things cost in Colombia: I think for most of us in the U.S. what we can "afford to pay" is relative. If the cost was such that I needed to cut my own expenditures by moving to a cramped apartment in a really bad neighborhood in order to make sure that she could put food on the table for the child, would I do it? Yes. Would I make the same sacrifice in order for her to be able to live in a really fancy home and dress the kid in designer clothes? No. Those are obviously extreme ends of the spectrum, but you get my point: I want to get a better understanding of what it would take to help the mother provide a reasonable standard of living to the child.

Finally, Philly and briarblue, thanks for providing my some useful numerical points of reference regarding costs of living and/or typical incomes.

Okay, enough for now. Thanks again.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Robert Jorge says on Jul 6, 2008, 16:03:

Aloha - you sound like a very honorable person. Good luck to you.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Monita Linda says on Jul 6, 2008, 16:42:

Aloha50:

Maybe you didn't read my post... so I will repost it:

Monita Linda says on Jul 5 (today): flag

Honestly when I see the $$ figures here it drives me nuts...

HOLD ON.. Colombia is NOT the states... and if the girl has "on and off" jobs as you say, then her personal income of those jobs will be between 400,000 and 500,000 if not less (yes people work for less).

So if you want to help her, help her to HER standard. So that would be MAX 200,000 a month.. MAXIMUM!!!!

If you want to send her like 500,000 - 1,000,000 COP be my guest, you just gave your lady a real nice life, she won't have to work, will live a nice standard and no financial worries.. just like.. PARADISE.. a nice and free life..

---

Addition: as you told me, she is living with mommy so my guess is she hardly pays anything... even though your estimates are TRUE for someone with a university education and a stable full time job, it doesn't seem to be the case for your lady...

Don't giver her as much as you are planning to... what you are doing is providing her with a stable income where she doesn't have to do anything for... She will most likely stay with mommy or another family member and because of your cash she won't feel the need to work, as you'll be sending her a steady minimum income (what she'd make if she gets a regular job).

Take care..

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Philly says on Jul 6, 2008, 16:47:

I think you have all the information you need, now its time to wait and see what happens with the blood test. You sound like an educated person with a good head, do what you have to do. Who knows, you might just end up with this girl. Most of all the women I know here are decent people.( now it is time to develop some kind of trust with her )

Ps. The atm card is a really good suggestion, you will always have a record of money deposited and you can keep track of her spending. She will also get a good rate on the peso. You will loose a lot of money sending it to a bank here or any other service.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Papi de Alejo says on Jul 6, 2008, 17:37:

If you take bamacellist's recomendation, you could set aside that amount each month in a stateside account for the benefit of the child. You can then deduct each month the amount that you feel is waranted in this case. At the end of 18 years, I would think that you will have set aside a significant amount of money which could go a very long way towards a college education or a good start in adult life. My 2 cents.

PdA

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Philly says on Jul 6, 2008, 18:50:

Monita_Linda, sorry, I need to make a comment. All the experiences that I have had in Colombia, when the adult children are still living at home, THEY PAY EVERYTHING. I have seen little to none of the parents paying any bills, or for that manner, NOTHING AT ALL. I am sure plenty of people here that are posting can back me up with this.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

perezoso says on Jul 6, 2008, 20:10:

Okay, this thread has forced me to delurk. I'm an American, married to a Colombian, with a young (5 yr) daughter. I lived in Bogotá 20 years ago, and have recently returned for a few years so my daughter can perfect her Spanish and feel as Colombian as 'gringo' when she's older.

I think, original poster, that you are getting some lousy advice from most people here (plus your lawyer), excepting bamacellist. I'm wondering how many of the kids that post on here actually have kids of their own and can offer much experience (apart from the wisdom they've acquired in all of 25 years on this planet).

I'm not going to get into the whole question of exactly how much a month you should send (assuming this is your child), and I generally concur with bamacellist's humane take on the situation; but you need to think about a few things.

Yes, Colombia is cheaper than the states; but it's not dirt cheap and, in fact, there are a number of things that cost as much or even more here than in the US that I think, pardon my bluntness, any decent father would want his child to have. This isn't exhaustive list, but a few examples to hopefully get you thinking because, in my experience, the big costs of a child are not things like the monthly food bill, they usually of a more one-off and sometimes unpredictable nature.

Anyway, IMHO, think about this kind of thing:

HEALTH INSURANCE: Yeah, there is mandatory health insurance for employed people in Colombia; but it isn't the greatest. What if your kid gets cancer? Are you gonna want him/her to have "middle class Colombian" (whatever that means) treatment? If you don't buy your kid health insurance, and s/he is born with or developes a major condition that isn't well-treated under the Colombian state plan, what are you going to do? Import him/her to the US? How much will that cost to treat a kid with no US insurance with a major condition? Hundreds of thousands or maybe even seven figures. Maybe you want to buy good Colombian health insurance or carry a US policy for your kid.

CAR: One of the things that's more expensive here than there. You indicate that you don't want your kid and kid's mom to have a car. Have you ever tried, for example, buying a week's worth of groceries and toting them home on the bus with a toddler in your lap? Hint: It ain't easy. A basic car here, used, is going to run at least 10 million COP. That's more than a year of the child support you are thinking about.

SCHOOL: Yeah, you can get cheap school in Colombia. Is that what you want for your child? Or do you want your kid to have a better education? If so, then remember that a lot of private schools in Bogotá are fairly costly - and I'm not talking about the super-elite ones - and may charge a "bono" of several million pesos just for the right to enroll. Plus your monthlies, which are going to be more than 200,000 at many schools. Plus, in Bogotá, a lot of the schools are out on the sabana, meaning you have to pay for a bus (which can be nearly as much as the school itself) ... and if you're not going to be helping your kid's mom a car, then you will be asking her to take public transport up to an hour or more each way every time there's a school activity that requires a parent.

Anyway... that's for starters.

As to the people that congratulate you for merely offering child support, I say bullsh*t. Offering child support is the minimum that you can do. It's the right thing to do, but just the call of duty. Certainly nothing above or beyond. What you really should be thinking about, in very practical terms, is what kind of life you want your child to have. It's not nearly as simple as funding50% of a "middle class Colombian" existence.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Robert Jorge says on Jul 6, 2008, 20:42:

I don't necessarily disagree with Perezoso. BUT - find out definitively if that baby is yours. From what I understand, a doctor can narrow down to a day or two when the child was conceived, early in the pregnancy. I am not trying to suggest anything other than you HAVE to confirm and be sure that the baby IS yours. No matter how it turns out, I wish you luck and I still think you are an honorable person trying to do the right thing.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Robert Jorge says on Jul 6, 2008, 20:45:

And Perezoso, I am much older than 25. I can remember at least 5 people who responded to this thread who are in their 50s or older. The poster is not getting every response from teeny-boppers who haven't had kids.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

0 funny, 0 helpful.

CatGirl says on Jul 6, 2008, 21:54:

Philly -no need to state my experience and not really necessary is it? I don't see Bonita commenting on her expereince at all and she pretty much said the same as me. Good to see you were civil with her ;)

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Philly says on Jul 7, 2008, 04:22:

Lol CatGirl

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Monita Linda says on Jul 7, 2008, 05:17:

Philly: when my husband and I lived with my in-laws, we paid not a single bill.. neither did my husband until I came...

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Monita Linda says on Jul 7, 2008, 05:20:

Perezoso... you say that offering child support is the LEAST you can do.. well most Colombian man don't offer child support.. maybe 10 mil pesos every month if they give anything at all.. if the baby is his he should send her some pesos to HER standard... and I am sure even if he'd send her more that she would raise the kids HER WAY.. so even if he'd pay for better things she would still do what she did and whats "normal" in her family...

0 funny, 0 helpful.

mranderson says on Jul 7, 2008, 06:50:

I thought child support was to send money to help pay for things like clothes and diapers and stuff.

I didn't realize that in colombia you have to pay her rent, buy her a car, and of course spending money so she can go out with her boyfriend.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Monita Linda says on Jul 7, 2008, 06:59:

I second you, mr Anderson.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Robert Jorge says on Jul 7, 2008, 07:51:

Yep, any extra money will be spent with her cousins at some night club. You might even see her on down the road on pegateya dot com whooping it up at a disco.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Azul says on Jul 7, 2008, 07:55:

...Buy her a car?? Really?? With that kind of treatment neither she or her boyfriend will have to work.

las cosas caen por su propio peso

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Azul says on Jul 7, 2008, 07:56:

Also....I am not 25 and I have children.

las cosas caen por su propio peso

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Monita Linda says on Jul 7, 2008, 07:59:

Azul, I am more thinking she, her boyfriend and her parents...

0 funny, 0 helpful.

rhydewithdis says on Jul 7, 2008, 08:25:

at Perezoso, a car? LOL
How about he includes an additional 4mil a week for a taxi so she can get home from the supermarket?

They said I couldn't play football I was too small / They say I couldn't play basketball I wasn't tall / They say I couldn't play baseball at all / And now everyday of my life I ball.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Monita Linda says on Jul 7, 2008, 08:42:

We don't have a car and when we finish buying our groceries, we take a taxi and pay 3mil to get home with the groceries...

0 funny, 0 helpful.