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Cost of living in Colombia

Has any one besides me noticed how the cost of living is going up in Colombia.
Augila that used to cost me 1,000.cp at my local tienda is now 1,100.cp the bus down used to be 900. cp its now 1,000.cp a bag of water was 200. cp then 2.20.cp now 3.00 cp. milk was 1,500 cp now it`s 1,600 cp. a ltr. and worst of all it now cost me an extra $20.00 when I go to the atm for money because of the low dollar against the cp. I know bich bich bich but when will it stop. even the puntas have raised thier prices.

By Boatygringo on Jul 12, 2007, 14:36 in Friendly Talkzone.

Lowell says on Jul 12, 2007, 14:40:

Yes, I've noticed as I've a large family to feed..... However, when the price of putas goes up too, it's a sign of bad times.

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

panthdave says on Jul 12, 2007, 14:47:

Well my rent automatically renewed at the same price for six months if thats a good sign..if did not go up..Taxis went up what 4 months ago in Medellin can't remeber but not so bad. Groceries now...I would have to say..has gone up..alittle I started to notice.

I don't think so bad.. Airline tickets are around the same I did get my Christmas ticket for 647.00 and my normal tickets every two weeks are about 446.00 which did go up by 5.00 because of the Tourism Tax now..

Have not felt any inflation really yet...

panthdave Miami

Waterdawg says on Jul 12, 2007, 15:24:

Not happy : Bombay Gin was 50,000 now 53, 750 in Central !

panthdave says on Jul 12, 2007, 15:27:

Well renewal rents have not gone up so maybe it's better for me to stick to rent for another year..

panthdave Miami

robi666 says on Jul 12, 2007, 16:11:

Well, some explanation:
1) Renewal rents is fixed by the government, following inflation. So it was something like 4% this year.
2) Real Estate do not follow inflation. Actually the price went up more. So new contracts rent,of course. The increase of 40% in two years is not so strange. Real estate prices in Medellin went up (officially) around 30% in two years.
3) Taxis fee, again, fixed by government: carrera minima from 3000 to 3200 in Medellin.

Anyway, what to expect in a state with a 7% growth? Inflation. That's why the official rate went up in the last months (even if I think that rising interest rate in a third world country with a high growth rate will just attract more foreign capital and cause more inflation).

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

robi666 says on Jul 12, 2007, 16:13:

Pathdave, rent are normally renewed after six months at the same price. Expect to have a rent increase after one year (as said, around 4%).

robi666 says on Jul 12, 2007, 16:16:

By the way, inflation jumped to around 7% during the last months, going back a little on the last month.
So, boatygringo, it's just normal, it won't stop, at least if we don't get another Chavez here.

robi666 says on Jul 12, 2007, 16:21:

DG, "When forign money hits the exits you will see prices go down", of course it can happen. Things are not going that well for uncle Uribe lately. The idea of a new Chavez is not that remote anymore...

panthdave says on Jul 12, 2007, 17:04:

Well since January of this year to now things are basically the same in my budget....Now September of last year to March I noticed the pinch on the Dollar weaking against the Peso..I have been looking around for properties and really getting into the idea of owning a small apartment building...and live in the building with my GF...with two of the apartments in one..and rent the others maybe 6 apartments for rent but lets see.. been looking at a few lots..

panthdave Miami

Atrevido says on Jul 12, 2007, 18:06:

In recent years the salario minimo has gone up annualy six point something percent. Many costs like rent and health insurence premiums for example are legally allowed to (and do) climb the same percentage.

Man Tequila says on Jul 12, 2007, 18:12:

When I was a kid, a bottle of soda pop cost a dime. Can't remember what puntas cost then.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

panthdave says on Jul 12, 2007, 18:31:

Thats not bad for salaries....6% annual increase....that is higher than the States I think..

panthdave Miami

robi666 says on Jul 12, 2007, 18:54:

Pathdave, it all depends on inflation rate... better than in the states... are you sure? Uribe is trying to keep the growth of salario minimo a small decimal above the inflation rate. It is something, but salario minimo still means poverty.

timeforachangeofscenery says on Jul 12, 2007, 19:06:

If President Uribe continues the way he's going - austere (responsible) budgets, the signing of a free trade agreement with the U.S, continued efforts to reduce public debt, export led growth strategies, increased security and with the help of ever increasing commodity prices then foreign money won't be disappearing from Colombia any time soon Gringoinbogota.

In fact, growing confidence in a well managed Colombian economy is going to see even more foreign money pour into this beautiful country.

What we are witnessing is an increase in prices from a depressed level. These price increases will convince foreign investors that there is money to be made in development in Colombia. Hell, you said it yourself - if appartamentos are increasing in value by 20% a year, then this signals to foreign investors that there is serious money to be made in appartment construction (for example).

Pretty soon, these comparatively high returns coupled with a more stable economic situation will prove irresistable and every man and his dog will rush to invest here.

The good news for appartmento starved gringos is that these profit driven developers will build muchos mas appartamentos and then the prices for appartments will eventually plateau as you encounter supply and demand equilibrium.

If President Uribe continues on his merry way, the future could indeed be rosey for Colombians too.....

You see.......if there is money to be made safely in Colombia, then multinationals are going to start competing to construct much needed infrastructure in Colombia like ummmmm shopping centres, private schools .......hospitals........roads....... etc. These things will start popping up everywhere.

As profits rise and companies start bragging about these profits in their annual statements, money will start to flood into Colombia from the largest poool of investment money there is.......the international private sector.

Inevitably, the Colombian labour market will begin to become stretched as workers are hired by the thousands to work on privately funded developments. Colombia will experience wage growth as demand for labour begins to outstrip supply.

Increased tax revenue from an army of new workers will eventually flow into the community in the form of improved infrastructure - better equipped public schools, hospitals and public transport.

With increased profits, higher wages and the growth and development of Colombian industry there will eventually come a time where the reliance on foreign multinationals wanes as home grown industrial companies, home grown entrepreneurs and domestically derived funds begin to replace foreign investment capital.

Suddenly the 49% of Colombians currently living below the poverty line will have opportunities that simply weren't there before. They will experience the joy of gainful employment and their children will be able to look forward to a future.........well they'll be able to look forward to a future a lot a lot like the one these beautiful people deserve.

To witness in full the potential benefits delivered to an impoverished nation by the emergence of good governance, one only needs to look to the tiny nation of Estonia.

(the following quote is taken from an article written by the "Digital Freedom Network")

Estonia’s transition from Soviet satellite to market economy is ongoing, but its successes of the past decade have cemented a solid foundation for an emerging Central European economic power. Its independent judiciary, limited government intervention, and low tax rates make it an attractive investment. For a country of little more than a million to surpass the United States in economic freedom in just over a decade proves that success in previously devastated, undemocratic areas is possible so long as there is dedication on the part of both citizens and their leaders.

As for your gripe about appartmentos rising Gringoinbogota, I have bad news for you. The current low prices of appartments is a transitory effect resultant from supply outstripping demand . As demand continues to rise, prices will rise as well. These prices will continue to rise until the supply and demand curves intersect. Maybe you should invest now :)

Take care

Timefor.

robi666 says on Jul 12, 2007, 19:27:

Timefor, I wish i could be that optimistic too...
What I see, it is a brutal change of perspective in the last 2 months:
1) The process to AUC is clearly a farce. Groups still in actions.
2) No progress in peace talk or war with FARC. Things getting worse.
3) Parapolitic scandal getting bigger. No main actions taken.
4) No advance in the FTA. Things getting harder for mr. Uribe in the States.
So... are you really sure?

nine inch nails says on Jul 12, 2007, 19:27:

I thinkin now the place to be is Mexiko. No, not Barrio Mexico, Mexico Mexico.

Now Mex. is like CO in the 80s and 90s with all their drug battles. Prices have to be lower in the drug battle zones.

Swear I'm gonna find the data to support MDE RE prices doubling (or at least up by 50%) in the last year and a half.

get down, get down

Brians says on Jul 12, 2007, 19:30:

Timeforachangeofscenery, That all sounds nice but your theory is riduled with real world holes. Anyway in textbooks that is the theory but there are so many external forces that derail your assumptions that I actually give your theory less than 2% of unfolding in that manner. The world's central banks are raising rates (ex. USA) and the flow of capital will slow. Colombia is currently ill equipt to handle this growth simply from an infrastructural point of view. The goverment is now running a deficit and can not fund these programs. The current growth has been funded by private capital. Thereare good arguments that this will reverse. However GB I disagree with the idea of deflation actually occuring. Inflation is difficult to weed out once it starts. Robi is probably closer to correct and that scares me more. Although I don't see it as a high probability his theory of another Chavez becomes more possible if in fact inflation gains traction as capital flows reverse. Remember there is still a FARC that will not go away. They gain more and more support as people lose standards of living i.e. inflation and contraction of growth. Colombia has a really difficult job ahead of itself. So far they have done great but we are at a turning point and this thing could tip the wrong way really quickly. Anyway these are my thoughts so take them for what they are worth. Optimists have ruled the world for centuries so I will be optimistic about Colombia. However you have to be a realist and remember Colombia is a Third World country.

Miguel_Clavo says on Jul 12, 2007, 19:54:

NIN...isnt that song by XTC great? one of my work out songs....=)

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

manINred says on Jul 12, 2007, 20:28:

Taxis went from 1300 starting to 1600 i believe, and go up in increments of 60 pesos as opposed to 55 pesos. Minimum is no longer 3,000. It is now 3,200. Oh well, still cheap as chips compared to London and Toronto.

timeforachangeofscenery says on Jul 12, 2007, 20:45:

G'day Brians,

Ummmmm firstly, you should confuse economic liberalisation with interest rate policy. The two issues are completely independent from each other. A reserve bank raises the interest rates on money it lends to commercial banks most times in order to head off inflation in their country. They then lower interest rates in order to spur growth. They do this as they see fit and independently in accordance with their interest rate policy. They generally need to raise interest rates when when people are earning too much, spending too much and driving up prices - Inflation.

Economic liberalisation is essentially encouraging entities to make profit with the long term aim of increasing the standard of living in a country as a whole.

All nations have their own Central (or Reserve) bank and they all have their own stated interest rate policy. They do raise interest rates unless the economic situation in their own country warrants it. Further, the interest rates policies of one nation are based on the independent assessment of the Reserve Bank Chief of that nation and are completely independent of government economic policy.

Again...If a Reserve Bank raises interest rates, it is because the economy is heating up and wage growth or other factors are putting upwards pressure on inflation. This usually happens when there is more demand from consumers (with money) in an economy than there are available goods.

Raising of interest rates in some of the world's central banks will have an impact on some countries whos economies rely heavily on discretionary spending. However, Colombia is a country reliant on resources and I don't know if you've checked but there is a resources boom that shows no signs of abating. The Colombian economy is growing steadily but is well within inflationary constraints. Nobody is going to stop buying Colombian goods........cos they're just not OK !!!! If the yanks don't want our coal, they Chinese can have it. etc etc etc. Calm down....interest rates aren't going to stop the chinese from buying Coal ok.

Dude.....you're saying that Colombia can't handle growth because there is no infrastructure ? That's just CRAZY. The secret to infrastructure is that you build it once it's needed. Otherwise it just sits there all by itself not being used. As a city grows and the wealth of its citizens increases, they citizens will demand better infrastructure. The government that stays in power is the one that gives its citizens what it wants.
That's democracy baby.

The government is running at a deficit but this is a trade deficit - it's imports are higher than it's exports. This is because the wealth of individual Colombians is growing. A trade deficit does not mean that your average colombian is getting pooorer. It simply means that as the peso rises, the cost of imports becomes cheaper to colombians to buy and the cost of colombian exports become more expensive to foreign nations to buy. This might also indicate that there is a market for Colombian goods at home and exporters are selling locally which will also effect balance of trade payments.

You said that current growth has been funded by private capital. Well that's what I said too. There are good arguments for this to continue and NO arguments to suggest that this might abate. The private capital has been injected for reasons of profit sustainability. Private venture capitalists aren't Santa Clause wannabees. They put their money where it will grow. Even Colombian government BONDS are currently returning 9.85% - which is incredible. These people know what they're doing because if they don't - they go bankrupt and lose their big houses and nice wives.

Most of the rest of your argument is just lazy speculation, unsubstantiated in fact and economic gibberish full of catch-phrases and meandering speculation. Your hypotheses are unsupported by either reason or sound judgement and I didn't even bother reading your conclusion.

Basically you're just guessing that I'm wrong and you're right and then you're backing your position with an opinion.

As for you Robi......what do you expect the FARC to do ??? - they're flourishing right now in a country that is too poor to defeat them. The government has not until now had either the resources or the will to tackle them. You can't placate these paramilitary groups. You have to destroy them and you need an economy to be producing enough revenue for the government to afford to do it. You assume that if the government talks nicely and says nice things that these people who make money from misery and death will just take their guns and go home.

When your enemy is strong, they will fight. When they are weak they will negotiate, coddle and placate while they regroup and prepare. If they see they see their utter annihalation, they will struggle then beg mercy. Sun Tzu The Art of War.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

Timefor.

robi666 says on Jul 12, 2007, 20:56:

"You assume that if the government talks nicely and says nice things that these people who make money from misery and death will just take their guns and go home."
I assume nothing mr. Cinderella, I just notice what's going on: a brutal change of perspective in the last 2 months! Oalà tu tenga razón...

Stop living in a fairy tale and smell the Colombian ground.

robi666 says on Jul 12, 2007, 20:59:

And please, close your book of "Economy 1", we (Brian and me) are pretty over that...

scotty says on Jul 12, 2007, 21:00:

Boat, welcome to the club, everything is going up everywhere. here in the states everything is up beginning with gas prices.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

timeforachangeofscenery says on Jul 13, 2007, 02:13:

""Stop living in a fairy tale and smell the Colombian ground.""

Robi, there's no need to make personal attacks on me. If you disagree with something I say, then please, by all means attack what I say. Attacking me personally in writing over the internet about something I wrote on a Colombian forum just makes you look like a recalcitrant malcontent with nothing to say.

""And please, close your book of "Economy 1", we (Brian and me) are pretty over that...""

What exactly does this mean ? Are you criticising what I said or just hoping to stir up enough mud with your billious, self righteous ramblings that you give the impression of knowing what you're talking about?

Timefor.

I may not agree with your opinion but I'll fight to the death to defend your right to express it.

Brians says on Jul 13, 2007, 02:15:

Well you are right about Central Banks raising rates based on their own internal policies. However one thing you do not consider is the fact that the Central Banks of the world are more inter-twined that at any time in the past. This is why we are looking at the BOJ as the Central Bank to watch here in the USA rather than the Fed. The fact that credit has been created from credit is a cycle that ends poorly. Carry Trades from low yielding currencies such as Japan have boosted prices of every asset class from stocks to gold. When this ends it ends poorly. The fact that the world has been importing deflation from a curency peg in China is something that can not be ignored. Now we are reading about labor shortages in China etc.. Specualtion maybe somewhat but that is what you need to do to make and discount risk. These are my thoughts and drawing a straight line of growth is not something my clients would ever expect from me or my company. I could give you statistic after statistic to support these risk accessments but have little desire as this has been discussed. One thing you should understand is that we may very well be entering a phase in which we begin to import inflation from China with worldwide growth slowing. This is a painful scenario. Colombia and the US's internal rate policies will not help. These events eventually will work themselves out but it will be a rough road. Colombia is less developed and thus more prone to political risks. Credit will also reverse and money will move to more stabile currencies. I love Colombia longer term and they have done everthing correct til this point. The next phase is a tricky one and they may not even be able to control how it plays out. I pray that these scenarios don't play negative and have invested my own money in Colombia. However I would be stupid not to understand and think out these risks and move blindly into this country. I hope you are right but look at things more from a grounded standpoint. There is a lot of risk and there will be a lot of growing pains. I hope robi is not correct but I believe he is of the same mindset as me in evaluating the next possible moves politically. I give them a low probability of occurring as well but they are sure not priced into these markets currently. Now I am off to Chicago with my wife to watch a weekend series with the Cubbies vs. Houston at Wrigley. I look forward to reading your comments on Monday. robi see you next month I have so news as we are waiting for a new addition to our family:)

timeforachangeofscenery says on Jul 13, 2007, 02:37:

Brians. Congratulations on your new addition to the family. I hope everything proceeds smoothly and please accept my best wishes to you and your family.

Timefor.

panthdave says on Jul 13, 2007, 05:09:

Robbi666 talking about the percentage increase only not the amount of pay...I didn't get 6% increase in my salary from 2006-2007 ..

hoping for 5% starting 2008 which I am going to ask for if I keep the same position..

panthdave Miami

robi666 says on Jul 13, 2007, 06:11:

Path, you have to compare the percentage with the inflation, that's what I was meaning. In the States, you do not have the same inflation as in Colombia so 5% there is probably still more than 6% here...

Timefor, sincerely apologize, I was a bit off, just joking of course (but never "grocero" true?)
I invested some good money in Colombia and next move, if I see something keeping going the wrong way, it will be to take back my cash and I'm gone with it. Same as Brian and your other "foreign investors".
Listen, one should understand that big gains is ALWAYS connected to big risks, and Colombia is still a third world country working hard to progress. You have to evaluate things politically, that's it! I have good friends in Venezuela, why don't you ask them?
One wrong move and here we go sliding on the wrong side of the hill.
It reminds me of Asimov's firsts Foundation Series... so entertaining. Home, in Europe, never happens anything, boring. It may be another reason I love so much to be here :-)

timeforachangeofscenery says on Jul 13, 2007, 06:52:

Robi666,

I didn't take offence at all. :) I enjoy a spirited debate and welcome the opinions of others as a chance to view an issue from another point of view.

GringoinBogota has a valid point too. When it comes to Colombia, I guess you could say that I tend towards irrational exuberance.

I realise that there are sooooooo many ifs and buts in the equation that the whole idea of a financially successful Colombia seems ludicrous most of the time. But if I squint my eyes, make everything all fuzzy and use my imagination, I can almost see it - and it's really COOL!!!!!

I got my fingers crossed.

Timefor.

robi666 says on Jul 13, 2007, 06:58:

GIB, that's what I was meaning, reading political signals and anticipate. Sorry, I do not believe so much in other signals. Maybe, it is because I am from Italy and I have heard and seen things going through something similar in the 50s, 60s and 70s. I believe that, once you're on a correct political track (and it's much if you're an alley of USA), then economy will just work out its way. Long term, it is the only way for me.
I was bullish about Colombia, now I am on hold. Also, you have to evaluate which investment you made: stocks is not real estate, one is faster, one is safer and less profitable. Now, if I had colombian stocks, I would sell, now. And maybe buy back later. And sell and buy again. Like I did in the last year with NASDAQ.
The very difference with a "normal" investment in your own country, it is that if I sell here, than I am out of here, too. I strongly believe that if you live in a developing country, then you have to invest in it, too. To keep pace with inflation.
I don't want to find myself in a situation where my USD or EUR investment won't keep the pace of inflation or COP gaining. You have to balance and that's what I've done. Be sure that the balance I've done will not put me in a difficult position even if I loose all the money that I invested here.
Now, if I decide to cash out my investment, I am gone. Back living on a sailboat? Thailand? Who knows...

tomtom33 says on Jul 13, 2007, 07:14:

I guess I always knew why I was asked "cuantas cuotas?" when I used my credit card. But I never before thought much about the implications.

I don't understand much about economics. But I am fairly certain that you can put 5 PhDs in economics together with the exact same data and get 5 different opinions.

The Colombians that I know seem to have little sense of microeconomics. If they want something and can figure out a way to get it, they get it. It doesn't matter if they may need the money for groceries tomorrow or if they have to borrow or make payments. Aqui y ahora.

But that is not a lot different from many people I know in the US. A friend of mine was making US$100,000 per year in the 80s, but he spent $110,000 per year. Today at age 60, he has a negative net worth. I love the guy like a brother, but he will never be able to retire.

The point? Economies boom and economies bust. There have been predictions for a crash in the US credit-driven economy for decades. There have been dips, but no crashes.

timeforachangeofscenery says on Jul 13, 2007, 07:53:

Ok.......gringoinbogota........what form will the foreign capital take ? Will it be in the form of charitable hand-outs to every man woman and child in colombia ? because that might well be disastrous from an inflationary point of view. It would also be disastrous to the CEOs of multinational investment corporations who would probably lose their Christmas bonus..

However, if the ingress of foreign investment capital takes the form of infrastructure projects, resource development, augmentation of the service industries to competitive levels and other like minded projects, then this is a completely different kettle of fish. In these instances, a more efficient use of resources and increased productivity will prove to be anti-inflationary.

Let's look at what happens when a foreign investor puts money into an infrastructure project like ummmmmm a new public transport service. For example......ummmmmm....... The investor builds a bus terminal and services the city of Bucaramanga with nice new buses. This project might directly employ vehicle manufacturers, sign writers, bus-drivers, maintenance personel, cleaners, admin staff, accountants computer operators etc etc etc. These new workers are now earning money they would not have been earning prior to the arrival of the foreign investor.

Indirectly funds from the project also make their way into the pockets of a plethora of miscellaneous service industries, the housing market, and a myriad of other areas where newly employed people spend money.

The investor earns revenue from Colombian consumers. The Colombians benefit from an improved transport system attracting perhaps more people to the central business district. The Colombian government benefits from increased taxation revenue. Small business (such as chiclet vendors) benefits from both from an increase in disposable income from Bus Company employees and also from an increase in trade from travellers on the bus shopping in their shops.

Inflation is not an issue as the capital improvements to the transportation system mean that the system can now handle more consumers at a lower per capita cost than before. This has a deflationary effect that more than compensates for the additional wages paid out the the Colombian bus-drivers and ancillary workers.

This small example is simply meant to illustrate one of the tenets of capitalism. That is - the efficient allocation of resources will result in lower prices for end consumers. Right now, many billions of dollars are wasted by inefficient use of finite resources in Colombia. The inflow of capital from foreign investors would go a long way towards rectifying this.

As systems are put in place, effective management processes are implemented and inefficient, wasteful (expensive) methods are discarded, costs are diminished and inflationary pressures are removed. Eventually competition will take hold and drive down prices even further.

Sure Colombians will be earning more money (from the increased wages they are earning in companies started by foreign investors) but the efficient allocation of resources will see prices fall as outmoded management techniques, graft and inefficient production means are eliminated.

Therefore, it is my assertion that the influx of foreign capital into colombia would in fact be deflationary.

Timefor.

timeforachangeofscenery says on Jul 13, 2007, 08:31:

You may well be right GringoinBogota. Who knows? Perhaps a liberalised market economy will go the way of the dinosaurs in Colombia. Perhaps we'll see a massive groundswell of support for market liberalisation in Colombia that solves all her problems and procedes the birth of a new South American power.

Either way, I just hope there will always be a JUAN VALDEZ shop close by to supply me with my cold ice-cream coffee stuff with gooey caramel sauce......

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Gooooey Caramel Sauce.

Take care

Timefor.

jarhead says on Jul 13, 2007, 09:30:

You know timeforachangeofscenery, all this educated talk sounds real nice, very positive, very rosy...the problem with that whole equation is that you fail to realize that the ROOT problem with Colombia is the drug trade, it is the glue that keep this chaos we call Colombia together...as you very well know the drug trade generates somewhere in the neighborhood of $500 billion dollars a year, not all by Colombia, but Ecuador, Bolivia,Brazil,Peru,Afganistan,Pakistan etc.etc...that ungodly amount of money being generated by small cartels, the FARC, the AUC, the ELN, corrupt politicians etc.etc. is what will keep all your theories from becoming a reality..
People involved in these illegal activities will NOT all of a sudden put down their weapons and "come in from the cold" sort of speak, if some decide to stop these activities, others are eagerly awaiting their turn to get their share..drug money is what makes out society, probably the most corrupt in the world, it corrupts 99.9% of our policy makers, it corrupts 99.9% of our police and armed forces, drug money is what keeps the famed plan Colombia alive, drug money is the reason why there will never be a real lasting peace in Colombia...there is money to be made in chaos, there is money to be made during times of war, the FARC, ELN, Paras, will never sign a peace deal with the government, there is no incentive to do so, the drug cartels will never stop shipping drugs to the markets that consume them, there is no reason to stop...all this talk by the government about how 35,000 paramilitaries have demobilized is just that, talk...they left one group to form another group, there is more paramilitary activity now(a lot of it is urban), than when all this crap about demobilization was first being talked about in the news.....bottom line sir, all these theories about foreign investment, about lasting stability, about less poverty etc. etc. are just that theories....there will never be lasting peace, sustainable growth, a real, lasting decrease in poverty, violence etc. until the drug issue is settled, and the only way the drug issue will be laid to rest is if the U.S., Europe and the other consuming nations legalize drugs....and we all know that will NEVER happen....
This "blip" on the radar we are going through right now, is just that, a blip...the peso will fall again, the cost of goods will come down again, foreign investment will eventually slow down or stop, this 8% growth a year will come down to the normal 1% or 2% again, once the FARC and the narcos set of some more car bombs, once they kidnap some more gringos, once they over run a few more towns, thing will be back to "normal", we will stop being the darling emerging market.....this has to happen, because nothing has really changed, the average Colombian worker is not any more productive than 5 years ago, we are sure not exporting more than a couple of years ago, this country is not safer than say a year ago...what has REALLY changed????????I mean on the ground level???????foreign perception has changed, but that is really it, the divide between the have and the have nots has widened to it's biggest level ever, people are poorer now, the Colombian worker is worse off now than ever before, I know, I employ 20 of them...the average person is HURTING....not the "magicians" who drive the 500million pesos, X5 BMWs, the average person.......

kalder says on Jul 13, 2007, 09:46:

jarhead- that it is one bleak and depressing post. But, regretfully, it rings very true to me. The ordinary Colombians I know are indeed hurting under the current economic regime.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

Frank Rizzo says on Jul 13, 2007, 10:41:

I agree Jarhead.....it'll correct like a rubber band....i'm also an employer of a dozen or so workers in Colombia. It's probably a little worse than last year for the average worker from what i've seen.

jarhead says on Jul 13, 2007, 11:01:

I hate to paint such a grim picture, but I am a realist, I have kids to feed, I have a car that I have to pump fuel into every day, I have 20 employees to pay, and to listen to every payday, I have a bodega that I have to pay rent on, I have materials that I have to buy everyday, I have suppliers that I have to pay every month, I have neighbors that I talk to every day...things are NOT getting better, things are not getting cheaper, fuel is not getting cheaper, people's bank accounts are not getting bigger, all I see at the ground level, the ground level...IE. south of el centro, not in lala land el norte, (that is not reality.......) is more poverty amongst the "average" person, and a shit load of more wealth among the estrato 20(joke) oligarcas, traquetos, paracos, lagarto politicians and silicone modelos....

the fundamentals have not changed, the fundamentals are the reason why this country has been at war for as long as it has, and those have not changed.....social injustice is what created the leftists movements, those leftists movements found the drug trade, and led to the problems we have now....but that social injustice has not gone away, it is still alive and thriving in our beautiful, battle scarred country...........

tomtom33 says on Jul 13, 2007, 11:12:

Unfortunately, there will always be social injustice. Life just isn't fair.

But Venezuela has scared the shit out of me. Fortunately Colombia has no(or little) petrodollars to momentarily placate the poor. All we have are narcodollars to terrorize the populace. Hopefully a strong central government can at least blunt the largest of the trafficers.

Miguel_Clavo says on Jul 13, 2007, 11:29:

Then some should go find a safer game to play in, unless they like getting bent over......sounds rather simple, right?

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

panthdave says on Jul 13, 2007, 11:52:

Well I guess its good that I have not invested in property yet....This thread has woke my ass up...Having 2nd thoughts buying will keep on renting...

Wow what a reality check ?????

Good Thread

panthdave Miami

miamimike says on Jul 13, 2007, 13:06:

GIB--You are on the Money! "Nope it is a bubble and it is going to pop. The housing sector has always been the place of the novice investor. No way around it and all the poistive thinking in the world is not going to change that. If Uribe wants to get off his mouth and start taking action to attract the forign investor than fine but then all the regulation goes away and all the cronnies making money off of it goes away as well. So it aint going to happen. Nope enjoy today cause it is as good as it is going to get for while is my bet.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------GIB-- All you have to do is look at the Miami Real estate Bubble which is Bursting( or has already burst, depending on who you talk to) All those High Rise Condos in Downtown Miami with no buyers or buyers now who bought with scammy loans, interest only types or Adjustable Mortages which are now ratcheting upwars and the last group of so-called Condo Flippers are squeeling like stuck pigs. They were on Nightline a few days ago all attempting to weasel out of their contracts by looking at small techncalities like a missing screw under the sink. LOL I love when a group of Hotshots like this get burned up the Wazoo and getting burned the Are! The Money that some Morons have shelled out for Condos in a Bad Area of town is mind boggling! They are the type that screwed up the Market in Miami and they will do the same in Bogota!

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? ... That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.,

miamimike says on Jul 13, 2007, 13:12:

GIB-here's a story about 3 of these Miami Bozo Condo Flippers who are taking it up the Rectum on their Purchasers! A Miami Taxi Driver with a 8th grade education could have given them better advice about buying these Condos! LOL And only for a $1 Tip!

http://www.miamiherald.com/548/story/160668.html

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? ... That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.,

Frank Rizzo says on Jul 13, 2007, 13:46:

Gringoinbogota, you may be right. I think anyone investing any level of money into Colombia would have established an exit (i sure did). This includes establishing a Colombian entity which is far more than your typical associadad, it's a legal structure that allows your best chance of liberating any investment, atty's that do this type of thing for many clients. This is not to say that my property in Colombia some day will not get siezed, just that they'll take the other high end homes along with mine owned by Colombians. I treat Colombia like Vegas, take want i'm not willing to cry about if it's lost. I really don't look at buying property there as a climbing investment, I intend on retiring there as I love that country. The security of renting in Colombia is about 100 fold worse to me than the risk of a full constitutional country flip. I guess time will tell, though look at the success of landholders throughout history.

miamimike says on Jul 13, 2007, 18:13:

When Castro took over Cuba(or better said, the miami cubans choose not to fight and turned their homes&businesses over to him without a fight) HE ALL Homes, big or small.

Hey Frank, the other day you made a psot here where you said some Comombian Banks paid 18% Interest; where are these Banks, Names Please?

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? ... That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.,

Frank Rizzo says on Jul 13, 2007, 18:16:

davivienda for the year beginning and ending 2005, colombia.

Frank Rizzo says on Jul 13, 2007, 18:17:

mike, that was for a 12 month CD., standard, nothing special.

Frank Rizzo says on Jul 13, 2007, 18:23:

https://linea.davivienda.com/davivienda.jsp the program is called "dafuturo"

Cali2005 says on Jul 13, 2007, 18:28:

Cost of living is up for Colombians, but for a foreigner trying to buy into a hot spot for gringos its 10 times worse. Once you get a few gringos in 1 building the prices can almost double in 1 year. There is no system with home appraisers and you dont have to be licensed to buy and sell realestate. Florida Real Estate is Crashing Hard and that was with a somewhat yearly controlled inflation. In the US we need more controls on the realestate market to protect home owners. Just remember prices dont always go up.

Be safe buy apartments or houses through a Colombian friend, that is not selling to 100 other foriegners. These guys charge more, and THERE IS NO LAW ON HOW MUCH YOU CAN MARK SOMETHING UP Dont buy in a building with 10 other gringos!

Go out on your own, learn the districts. I have to say district 6 and 5 for bogota and medellin are very pretty but the property values are over inflated. Stick with a disctrict 4 or maybe a 5 and you will get a lot more for your money.

If the houses go down in value you may come out ok because here you dont need to take out a home loan. Pay in cash and don't pay interest to a bank.

The world economy is like dominos. Don't listen to sales people, do your research. Don't be scared of Colombia. Dont tell your friends to come because colombia wont be a secret paradise any more.

Be nice says the Monkey

Viva Medellin

expatriate says on Jul 13, 2007, 18:29:

Ladies and Gentlemen of what is soon to be the U.S, Canada, and Mexico combined, using the fiat currency called the Amero, the future is going to be extremely rough starting sometime in the next 2-3 years, and will probably last five years or more. Your job will pay about as much as a Mexican will work for. It is now necessary to hoard physical silver and gold in secret places, for survival purposes, just like the U.S. pilots that got shot down over Vietnam carried gold coins in their belts to hopefully get them out of a tough situation.

Also, buy some silver and gold stocks, especially silver stocks. If you live in the U.S., sell your real estate. It's going down for the next five years or so. Rent for a few years. So are your U.S. equities going down.

When do you sell the precious metal stocks? This company tells you when to get out and when to get in. http://investmentscore.com - When you get out, short the stocks until it is time to get back in.

For us living in Colombia, it's not so bad. The idea of silver and gold does not seem to have occurred to anyone. I went to two numismatic shops in Cali today, asking to buy kilos of silver bullion on a regular basis. The best he had to offer me was a single U.S. pre-1965 silver quarter. I didn't bother to ask the price.

So, I suggest buying gold and silver mining company's stocks, and keep an eye on this data - http://finance.yahoo.com/currency/convert?from=USD&to=COP&amt=1&t=5d
and this data - http://www.portafolio.com.co/

The first tells you what tomorrow's ATM rate will be, and the second tells you what today's ATM rate is. If tomorrow's ATM rate is lower, take some cash out of the ATM today.

If you want to invest in real estate, buy in Argentina or Paraguay. Colombia is in a bubble that could pop any time.

That's all for now. John

miamimike says on Jul 13, 2007, 20:06:

Frank-miust not have those rates anymore,,,Best I could find was 7.80% which is about on par with other colombian banks,

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? ... That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.,

Frank Rizzo says on Jul 13, 2007, 20:12:

Mike, it was the luck of the irish,..I happened to be in Colombia several times in 2004 and in a couple of bank meetings. I just happened to ask performance...they did like 12% in 2004 for a flexible rate CD 12 mos...I though what the heck...put in a small deposit and 2005 actually hit something like 18.5%...!!! ... Due to that same luck, cause I really was not watching anything....I pulled it out...and used it for something else....

Well....2006 that same CD performed in the negative....so one of the few times that dumb luck went with the trend....

I'm not in anything like that now, though talk with a friend that works in a bank in Med. weekly....i've got him looking for something....who knows...?????

goin_south says on Jul 14, 2007, 00:02:

you might be right about the real estate bubble, Rubito.
But, if that bursts, then.... I would hope I'd have money to buy some perhaps...
Cause there's been a good, first round run-up.
You might be right.
When, is the question.
and, then....I would believe it will make a second run-up, in the ten years to follow.

and, thank you.

slguy says on Jul 14, 2007, 05:25:

"The first great depression, organized by Jews, (with millions of people starving while they got rich), as well as all wars since, will look like a piece of cake compared to the near future. No. this is not Mel Gibson."

If it's not Mel Gibson, it comes VERY close. Had any rants with cops lately, expat?

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

kalder says on Jul 14, 2007, 09:04:

Jews organised the Depression?

My grandmother was a war-widow and a domestic servant in the Depression. Times were very hard. She always said that the Jews were the only decent employers around in those days. They were scrupulously fair, treated their employees with respect and certainly (unlike all too many of their gentile counterparts) didn't take advantage of the awful conditions of the time to profit from the misery of others.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

expatriate says on Jul 14, 2007, 09:39:

jarhead says on Jul 14, 2007, 09:59:

Rubito, how many people do you actually know from Ciudad Bolivar, Soacha, and barrios like that...ask them if they are better of today than 10 years ago....I think I know what the answer will be..I have employees who live in those barrios, I have been to their homes,,,,, fuck, if they are better off today than 10 years ago, I would hate to see how they lived 10 years ago......

expatriate says on Jul 14, 2007, 13:50:

Man Tequila says on Jul 14, 2007, 17:02:

I guess it's not just a few cervezas. The Jews certainly made out well from 1929 to 1945.

Man Tequila says on Jul 14, 2007, 17:08:

“The very purpose of religion is to control yourself, not to criticize others. Rather, we must criticize ourselves. How much am I doing about my anger? About my attachment, about my hatred, about my pride, my jealousy? These are the things which we must check in daily life.�?
-- The Dalai Lama.

expatriate says on Jul 14, 2007, 19:47:

miamimike says on Jul 14, 2007, 21:53:

Cali2005 says on Friday July 13th, 2007 18:28:

Cost of living is up for Colombians, but for a foreigner trying to buy into a hot spot for gringos its 10 times worse. Once you get a few gringos in 1 building the prices can almost double in 1 year. There is no system with home appraisers and you dont have to be licensed to buy and sell realestate. Florida Real Estate is Crashing Hard and that was with a somewhat yearly controlled inflation. In the US we need more controls on the realestate market to protect home owners. Just remember prices dont always go up.

Be safe buy apartments or houses through a Colombian friend, that is not selling to 100 other foriegners. These guys charge more, and THERE IS NO LAW ON HOW MUCH YOU CAN MARK SOMETHING UP Dont buy in a building with 10 other gringos!

Go out on your own, learn the districts. I have to say district 6 and 5 for bogota and medellin are very pretty but the property values are over inflated. Stick with a disctrict 4 or maybe a 5 and you will get a lot more for your money.

If the houses go down in value you may come out ok because here you dont need to take out a home loan. Pay in cash and don't pay interest to a bank.

The world economy is like dominos. Don't listen to sales people, do your research. Don't be scared of Colombia. Dont tell your friends to come because colombia wont be a secret paradise any more.

Cali--Sage Advice! "but for a foreigner trying to buy into a hot spot for gringos its 10 times worse. Once you get a few gringos in 1 building the prices can almost double in 1 year."

""Be safe buy apartments or houses through a Colombian friend, that is not selling to 100 other foriegners. These guys charge more, and THERE IS NO LAW ON HOW MUCH YOU CAN MARK SOMETHING UP Dont buy in a building with 10 other gringos!""

Very astute Post! Look at what happened to Costa Rica, Lago Chapala(mexico) and a few neighborhoods in Panama, Ecuador and Nicaragua at this moment! Wait 'til IL(international Living) gets into Colombia and starts speculating then the real action starts as far as friving prices up! Get into neighbor hoods where a Gringo is a rare sight, where the deals are!

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? ... That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.,

panthdave says on Jul 15, 2007, 05:28:

Already happening in rare gringo barrios.. San Pablo/Sante Fe prices are going higher... I found a lot for 50 Millionies with no house...but heard the high price because the owner wants somebody to build 8 apartments on the lot..This is in Medellin...near the local airport..GF's brother said no way Dave that price way to high..but told me becoming a trend for property in Medellin..You know maybe not a bad idea to buy a small apartment building to try to offset your apartment in the same building..now..and rent to colombians..Novia thinks it maybe a good idea...With property prices becoming high...

I think GringoBogota is right the bubble will blow..and prices will come down..like in Miami..in the last year are stuck with there high mortgages..and prices are going lower or staying stable..

panthdave Miami

robi666 says on Jul 15, 2007, 08:08:

Ok, let's say prices will come down. Anyone with a rough idea about how much they will (10%, 30%, 60%)? What happened exactly in Miami?

panthdave says on Jul 15, 2007, 08:33:

Robi In 2002 prices in Miami started to rise than in Mid 2003 prices went crazy and kept on climbing until last summer..of 2006..So people who bought in 2004-2005 have very high mortgages and cannot get out of them now even if they sell..Prices are dropping slowly and there is a exit out of S.Florida because of cost of living to salaries just can't keep up.. Read the Forbes new report Miami is in the bottom 10 now...So many people stuck with properties and high mortgages and there lucky if they break even...after selling..

panthdave Miami

panthdave says on Jul 15, 2007, 08:34:

MiamiMike will confirm that.....

panthdave Miami

robi666 says on Jul 15, 2007, 10:37:

GIB, what I mean is this:
let's imagine you bought a 50.000 USD = 117 millions COP (1USD = 2334 COP) apartment, as investment, two years ago, El Poblado, Medellin. Not new. Average sqm. Cash! You rent it through an agency.
Price: last two years you had minimum 30% increase in value.
Exchange rate: two years ago it was 2334. Now at 1960 it is 16% gain.
Rent: minimum you made 6% NET of the original price, first year, 6,5% the second year. It's 12.5% of the original value.
So we have 30 16 12.5 = 58.5%.
You invested 50k USD, you have 79k USD. In two years.
So, how much real estate prices will have fall to make you loose your money? Sorry, I really cannot see it...

goin_south says on Jul 15, 2007, 11:39:

"""when the price of putas goes up too, it's a sign of bad times."""

I think.... not for the putas!

And, to answer the OP's Q.....NEVER. UNTIL the whole freakin world goes into recession. Because we humans are a greedy bunch.

and, thank you.

Frank Rizzo says on Jul 15, 2007, 11:46:

Hi GIB... I definately see where you're comming from, though respectfully disagree. As you started out saying that if you had held on to the real estate you would be on the upside, now that's the most profound comment in my opinion.

I've the pleasure of working with some great minds in wealth (dynastic wealth). Of course, i'm not picking their minds daily, though one thing they have in common is purchasing real estate, land, etc. and holding for decades, passing down, etc.

I think part of the realization of gains in profit are also the ability to live with out hinderance., accumulate assets that will not be stripped from you, etc.

I'll relate a small story in a person that rented a place in Colombia. At the end of their lease they were ready to move out. The lease was complete, they had complete signers, etc. (i was a signer is how i know this story), no problems with deposit, anything for the year they were in the "rented" apartment.

Well, the day they were ready to move, they called the moving truck, the movers arrived and took down the first load. By then the guards had notified (as instructed) the owner. Nothing wrong with this in anyone's mind. Then, the owner called the guards and the administration of the building, they stopped them from moving anything else until all the bills were met.

They had to prove that there were no outstanding phone, electric, and the owner did an inspection of the property to determine damage. Until then, the renter was not permitted to remove the items.

Call the police, yeah right, that was done, the owner claimed the items were in his possesion and that there was a pending lawsuit. The "renters" were told to go to court. Additionally, the renters were told that the owner has all rights to the property, regardless of an written lease. I don't know if this is true and the law, but this is practically what happened in this instance.

When the "renter" finally got access again (they were locked out by the building and owner) some 10 days later, there were several expensive items missing....ummmmm.

In addition to this, the owner had been inside the apto. many times during that 1 year lease with no permission and the guards just let the owner in....he is by the way "the owner"..

I'm not saying this will happen to anyone else, it's just an instance.

My point being, if you want to just visit Colombia i think renting is fine. If you're thinking of living there, I wouldn't even think of just renting.

Futures are built with brick and mortar, it's something you can touch. IMHO

robi666 says on Jul 15, 2007, 11:59:

Yes, I got your point and you're right in a way. Just a couple of things:
- I would have NEVER invested in Colombia if I was not living here.
- My investment is a "defense" investment. And, still, I think real estate is the best defense against inflation. I would not invest in anything else in Colombia.
- I do not need more money: i.e. I do not need the money of that apartment. I don't want to buy a BMW X5, I don't want to buy an expensive Rolex. Just the rent is enough for me.
So, I do as you write if I buy Stocks. And i do not buy stocks in Colombia. In fact, I don't do it even with European stocks. Stocks: I go US. And when I see some prices I say to myself why I did not wait, but then I see money in bank and I am happy anyway.
But Real Estate is something different. You go in for different reasons and targets, and actually, I do not think about how much money my apartment is worth, but just if it can give me a good rent.
So, you may one day be a millionaire, but I won't be poor and without working that much... ;-)

Frank Rizzo says on Jul 15, 2007, 14:26:

GIB, I definately agree with you cash is king, always has been always will be. Additionally, i'm not making suggestion to buy real estate in a 3rd world country if that cash is of necessity elsewhere for other investment. I'm talking about purchasing homes for retirement. A place to live part time in S.A. If the market in Colombia crashes, i'll be interested in picking up more.

It sounds like you make some/alot of your income from real estate, that's not my case. Thus, i'm interested in accumulating homes in places that i'd like to spend time in when (if ever, jajaja) i retire.

panthdave says on Jul 15, 2007, 14:29:

Right time is key for real estate..and also risky in unstable countries..Personally I am renting in Medellin until I see myself buying to live also in Colombia your personal status is better when you own assets as property..but taking my time...I want to see what happens..I prefer the cash right now...then investing in property..I want to see what happens actually when Bush leaves office to see how Colombia gets along with Democrats things could change in a minute in Colombia...

panthdave Miami

miamimike says on Jul 15, 2007, 14:31:

obi666 says on Sunday July 15th, 2007 8:08:

Ok, let's say prices will come down. Anyone with a rough idea about how much they will (10%, 30%, 60%)? What happened exactly in Miami?
===================================================================Robi--How far will they drop? Hard to say at this point, soe aren't even complted yet! Some of these condos were flipped two times in a week! LOL On the higher end condos, those selling at $300,000 sad thing is the Lower to middle class still won't be able to afford them NO matter how far they drop as they NEVER could afford The Monthly Maintenence Bill $400 monthly, then comes the $4000-$8000 yearly Tax Bill not to mention the $4000 Yearly Homeowner's insurance Bill! Just looking at these three bills you have at least $1000 monthly going out and you haven't even touched the Monthly Mortage, Food, Electric Bill yet! Another $800 with these 3 items.Now its up to $1800-$2000 monthly(minimally) just to hang your Hat in one of these places. Thatsa why Miami's Working poor will never be laying their head in any of these High Rise Condos! What Miami is lacking is Working Place Housing selling for $200,000 and under.

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? ... That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.,

Frank Rizzo says on Jul 15, 2007, 14:42:

Panthdave, i think that's a great stragety. I know it's not popular here on PBH, and you're probably doing this now.... but i'd make friends with as many larger business owners and businessmen as possible.

Make it known that you may be interested in a place to buy, what type and how much money....you know how the spider web works.... This alone got me a property at just over half of what a comp. property would have been as the owner needed cash quick.

Just a thought..

Frank Rizzo says on Jul 15, 2007, 19:34:

GIB, I don't know about Bogota....but Arthur B. is locating the slaughter house in Cali for us... we're going to get an angus cow cut up for the freezer.... we'll see what the cost is, but i'd imagine much cheaper than El Exito and others...

miamimike says on Jul 15, 2007, 23:11:

Interesting article on Miami Real Esate dilemma: http://www.local10.com/news/13679717/detail.html

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? ... That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.,

Tinto (Moderator) says on Jul 16, 2007, 10:24:

Not Chilean red grapes. They were more expensive in Carulla than in my local yuppie supermarket. And orange juice, believe it or not. You've got to read the labels carefully because some of the stuff passed off as orange juice is a shelf-stable concoction loaded with preservatives - they refrigerate it in one aisle to make you think it's real juice and then offer it in another at room temp. Same goes with those bags of fruit pulp - preloaded with sugar, I think, and sold at room temp.

I've never purchased ice cream in a grocery store in Bogota, but yogurt and cheese is more expensive than in grocery stores where I live and there's not as much variety. I've never been able to figure that one out.

Boatygringo says on Jul 16, 2007, 11:35:

I thank you all for the Lessons in economics and real estate prices. In my original post I was wondering how much longer I could afford to live in Colombia with all of the price hikes.
I agree with GIB the poor here are getting poorer.
A conversation with a local in Cartagena netted me this info that I already knew. there are two Cartagenas the one that the tourists see and the other one, the two live side by side, and the haves and the have nots dont even know each other.
Another case in point about credit the other day I saw the lady in front of me at Exito was paying here Exito credit card bill with here bank credit card and another time a guy was getting a 5000.000 cash advance on his exito card. How long can this go on?

Boatygringo

Tinto (Moderator) says on Jul 16, 2007, 11:39:

Now that's interesting. I thought most retailers forbid you from paying down your store-branded card with a bank-issued Visa, MC or Amex.

robi666 says on Jul 16, 2007, 11:53:

Boatygringo, I don't know if we can say that the poor are getting poorer.

Two fact:
Last years, with Uribe, the minimum wage increase has been higher than inflation.
The unemployment index is (slowly) lowering.

In general, not just in Colombia, world is progressing.
Abstract from Human Development Report 2006:
Human development index trends tell an important story. Since the mid-1970s almost all regions have been progressively increasing their HDI score. East Asia and South Asia have accelerated progress since 1990. Central and Eastern Europe and the Commonwealthof Independent States (CIS), following a catastrophic decline in the first half of the 1990s, has also recovered to the level before the reversal. The major exception is Sub-Saharan Africa. Since 1990 it has stagnated, partly because of economic reversal but principally because of the catastrophiceffect of HIV/AIDS on life expectancy.

Bottom line: conversations are just conversations.

pedro says on Jul 16, 2007, 12:19:

I've noticed Chinese take away food is more expensive in Colombia than in gringolandia. Sure the delivery part is cheaper, but the food itself is more expensive and not as good.

que nota!

jarhead says on Jul 16, 2007, 15:28:

Bottom line, Bogota is too fucking expensive, you cannot find good workers here, gas is too expensive(for an oil producing country), materials are too expensive, then you have to deal with bad news on a daily basis(FARC,ELN,Paracos,Mancuso,Jorge40,corrupt politicians etc.etc.), and people who are "tired" of all the bullshit...and to top it all off the dollar is "tanking", for us exporters it's time to look for greener pastures.......time to pick up shop and "bail"....I heard of neat little town in norther Mexico near the Texas border named Monclava...time to check it out....

panthdave says on Jul 16, 2007, 15:31:

I go to Carrefour now just to buy certain items and go to Centro in Medellin for Veggies,Meats,Potatoes,and Eggs everything else Carrefour unless they have sale which on July 4th and 5th Carrefour had 20% off on all Veggies and Fruits...took advantage of that, I pay my bill with a Mastercard Cuotas 1...though..Funny how they can charge I guess a certain amount each month to the credit card unless you take Cuotas 1 which posts the full amount.. Crazy..

panthdave Miami

robi666 says on Jul 16, 2007, 15:53:

Carrefour: 20% down any tuesday on veggie and meat. Also, it's a big advantage that you can use your cc there.
Mayorista: Panthdave, did you try the Majorista in Itagui? Actually, it does not seem to me that it is less expensive than Carrefour, though it's more fun to shop there and you find better quality.
Colanta: for meat, I like to go to Colanta. I used to shop at the one at the Aguacatala, but they changed the butcher there and I don't like the way the new one cut the beef. So, I have to check another one...

Miguel_Clavo says on Jul 16, 2007, 16:21:

crap, i dont know what i would do with my life if i had to pay thirty more cents per dozen eggs, or something similar.....THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!

get a f-ing life......=)..now if my rent jumped up 50% it would get my attention...life, really, is too short.....

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

panthdave says on Jul 16, 2007, 18:37:

I know Miguel I get the picture in a way your right..but I think I have been spending way to much..lately...

So been trying to find alittle ways to cut back..or save..thats all..

panthdave Miami

Miguel_Clavo says on Jul 16, 2007, 18:59:

i only sweat the cutting of costs on bigger ticket items.....if i pay a quarter more for my corona i still pay it..hell, if i was that stingy, i would drink a few less bottles to make up the difference.........or like in your other thread about ATM fees, currency conversion fees, non-ATM fees, and all the other greedy little f at ck the little guy fees from the financial institutions...now that was really good information on your part, btw....good job!

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

Tinto (Moderator) says on Jul 16, 2007, 21:06:

I think if places like Venezuela, Iran, and Indonesia had been paying the world market price for oil all along, they wouldn't be such basket cases now. Taxes on top of the gasoline are a different matter, but at minimum people should be paying what it takes to get it out of the ground, transport it and refine it. Anything less is just a subsidy which leads to huge, polluting, ancient cars (Venezuela, Iran) and riots when the price goes from oh, say 10 cents a liter, to the unconscionable level of 15 cents a liter.

scotty says on Jul 21, 2007, 01:16:

gringoinbogota, you make it sound gloomy in bogota. is it really that bad. let me ask you in your opinion what kind of money would a gringo need to live a nice life in bogota, i mean can you break it down (decent condo with security, food, satalite tv, phone, utilities, taxi, entertainment, etc)
are we talking $25k, $35k, $45k, more? less?

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

goin_south says on Jul 21, 2007, 01:50:

I think you forgot to include,....."las colombianitas", ... scot

and, thank you.

billyb says on Jul 21, 2007, 18:58:

Rubi, on that amount you can get by, but not get by fine np.

billyb says on Jul 21, 2007, 21:47:

It might be twice what the average rolo makes, but it's not twice what the average rolo would like to live on.

billyb says on Jul 21, 2007, 21:48:

And much less how the average expat would like to live.

goin_south says on Jul 22, 2007, 00:54:

por pasar a rato, billyb.
no mas.

and, thank you.

tomtom33 says on Jul 22, 2007, 06:57:

One million a night prepagos? One million would pay for at least 20 of my prepagos. It's the novias that are expensive.

billyb says on Jul 22, 2007, 14:36:

Most Colombians live below or near the poverty level, that doesn't mean that they like to live that way, much less expats used to a higher level. Rubi, if you want to live near ghetto level that is your choice, but I don't think you will have many people wanting to join you.

goin_south says on Jul 22, 2007, 14:56:

or, applauding you.
..needs to go live with the indigenous...
and, watch one of them steal his bicycle.
go live with the indians for a few years,
and, then he'll be back
like a sixties hippy
looking for write-offs
at fifty.

and, thank you.

podborski says on Jul 22, 2007, 16:13:

My major in uni was economics, but I still have to agree with the guy who said 'if you laid all the economists in the world end to end, you'd still never reach a conclusion'.

Economies on a worldwide scale are far too complex to be able to predict with accuracy. Just too much going on (money being created, derivatives, gov't policies changing, etc. etc times a million)

In the end I just look to buy things that seem to be cheap, and sell when they seem expensive.

So when I was looking to buy an apartment in north bogotá in 2004/2005, and the ones I looked at were $250,000 and $300,000 USD, I thought that was just too expensive considering the political and economic situation.

When I went to BsAs, I bought a 300 sq m house for the same price as I would have paid in bog for a roughly 150 sq m apartment (new, loft style, high end, just off parque 93). Comparable neighbourhood.

Seems to me that Colombia's economy is actually doing better than Argentina's right now, but I wonder if GIB hasn't got it right, and it's a bit of a spec bubble?

Could be that apartments in bog will continue to appreciate, but it seems much more likely to me that properties here have more room to go (despite having doubled, at least, in the last 5 years)

tomtom33 says on Jul 23, 2007, 09:14:

Jeez Pod, you looked in the wrong city. In Jan. of this year, I bought an apartment around 150 m2 for less than US$55,000 in Medellin, Conquistadores. The apartment was not new. It is 33 years old and needed some updating, like all new water pipes. But the building is solid.

For some reason Colombians put inordinate value on new construction. You get a lot more for your money buying "used."

podborski says on Jul 23, 2007, 10:53:

I know tomtom, I was looking (more for fun than anything else) at the very newest, best quality buildings in the north of bog. I still thought prices were high.

Here as well some (not all) people value new, poorly built, cookie cutter apartments in 7 to 10 story buildings, often on busy streets, to beautiful, old well built 'PH's (part of a chorizo house for example, on smaller, tree-lined streets. Go figure.

makes no sense to me, but I'm glad. I hope prices stay low for the old places and when I have some money again I'll buy as many as I can get.

podborski says on Jul 23, 2007, 11:30:

I don't know for sure rubito, but many people told me that in bog the older apts are significantly less expensive? I didn't look at any to be ble to say that's true.

I did think the quality of the apts I looked at (even some of the not quite so expensive ones) was very good.

In BsAs they use cheap iron window frames that rust before the building is finished. In Bog they were using very good quality aluminum. Just one example. Maybe the climate expalins that? Double glazed windows are not that common yet here.

Man Tequila says on Jul 23, 2007, 11:50:

Having been to BsAs thrice, and knowing something about where Pod is living and building... I tend to think that he has made an extremely wise investment. The architecture in parts of BsAs is nothing short of stunning, I don't know why you'd want a new place without character.

podborski says on Jul 23, 2007, 14:14:

I went antique shopping today. I don't know much about antiques, but I sometimes can tell a good thing when I see it. I'd be interested if anyone knows what the value of the following things might be? I think they are great deals, and am surprised they still exist:

first I bought 3 solid bronze/silver plated chandeliers:

[IMG]http://i17.tinypic.com/6ew5btc.jpg[/IMG]

I paid $300 USD for the lot. I don't really care what the 'value' of these is, to me they are a steal.

But the next thing...I just wonder...If i had the money I'd buy it on spec.

podborski says on Jul 23, 2007, 14:14:

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

podborski says on Jul 23, 2007, 14:20:

here's the real interesting one:

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

This is an art nouveau (I think) armoire, in perfect condition, and it is part of a complete set (bed, dresser, night tables).

I've never seen anything quite so high quality. The keyholes had mother of pearl inlays, the headboard has carvings of a woman that match the armoire, etc. etc.

Asking price (gringo price i think?) $10,000 USD.

But I bet the right person in europe or the usa would pay triple that, no?

houstongal says on Jul 23, 2007, 14:30:

It's lovely Pod. I buy my antiques through auctions and not retail so I can't tell you if $10k USD would be right (retail tends to be at least double auction price). Did they replace the mirrors? They look like they're in too good a shape to be original. 1920's? Walnut or mahogany? Looks like it would weigh a ton (like all good, old furniture). The chandeliers are great as well. $100 a piece would be reasonable in my book. Do they have auctions in Argentina??

Culture is language and language is culture - Dr. Annamaria Napolitano

podborski says on Jul 23, 2007, 15:08:

I think the mirrors are original, only because they are beveled, but they could be new. The whole piece looked remarkably new, but I'm pretty sure it's legit. He said he had a certificate and all that.

I didn't ask a lot of questions because it's all just for fun as I have no money in the budget for that kind of thing. (But it does have me wondering about another business opportunity...)

They do have auctions of course, but I have not been to one yet. Today was supposed to be just exploring with the designer, but I just had to buy those chandeliers.

They had several armoires that were close to 8 feet long by maybe 10 feet high too (!) I asked how they would get them out of the store (which was an old house) and he said they just take them apart, and they go "flat as a pancake".

I've seen armoires in Toronto not half as good, in far worse shape, for $5,000, so I think it's a deal. But I guess you'd have to ship it and all that. Plus, maybe they restrict exports now? The designer seemed to think it would not be easy to export it.

houstongal says on Jul 23, 2007, 15:15:

Well Pod, check out an auction if you need to buy furniture or other decorative items. You'll pay far less than retail. Plus they really are lots of fun to experience.

Culture is language and language is culture - Dr. Annamaria Napolitano

podborski says on Jul 24, 2007, 05:33:

I used to own a old (1964) jag E-type roadster.

I loved that car, one of the most beautiful ever built, IMHO, and it went like hell. Just a joy to drive.

Buuuut....it overheated at the drop of a hat, had regular electrical problems, leaked when it rained. Every mechanic's bill was $500, and up.

Still, I drove it for almost 20 years. I once spent 6 hours broken down on a major