comparing Colombian education to western education

adrimm says on Jun 24, 2005, 16:18:

Western Colombia.

You've tried this one before.

LOL. Keep trying Kerry.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kernow62 says on Jun 24, 2005, 17:13:

Didn't think old Einstein was a Yank, at least I don't think his ability to create was shaped by the American system. Next you will be telling me all those creative Nazis who developed rockets for NASA and all those compatriots who helped develop America's chemical and biological weapons were products of that great American spirit of creativity.

A formal education is not a hinderance, it is down to the individual to be creative with either their learning or their innate creativity. I don't think Colombia is the least bit restrictive of one's creativity.

Next you will be trying to link the wearing of school uniforms with the cartels.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Lionheart says on Jun 24, 2005, 17:31:

Einstein

Einstein was German Jew who emigrated to the USA, not a Yankee.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Condorlisa Arroz says on Jun 24, 2005, 21:04:

A friend of mine who went to the USA as exchange student came back and told me that the level of education in the USA is also not higher than in Colombia. Only difference, in the USA you pay more for the same kind of education. Recommend: Go to Germany, Sweden or....there you get much better education and the best is: education is FREE there. CA Montañas de Colombia

CA Montañas de Colombia

0 funny, 0 helpful.

caslug says on Jun 24, 2005, 21:15:

US PUBLIC(high school & below) school is.. pretty decent in general AND FREE, Public University is Very GOOD if not excellent. Berkley, UCLA, UT Austin, to name a few are PUBLIC Uni. They are right there with the best in the world. COL PUBLIC institutions, lacking the resources and funds, cannot compare to US. Sure, maybe the private high school in COL is good as any top high school(private or public) in the world. But there's no way COL public Uni as as good(on average) as US Public Uni.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

utopiacowboy says on Jun 24, 2005, 21:29:

Isn't there some meat left out somewhere that's about to spoil? Nice try, Londonmale.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

adrimm says on Jun 24, 2005, 22:37:

caslug Apples and oranges.
In terms of funding availability it is unfair to compare universities of a developed, stable and fully industrialised country like the US with one like Colombia. HOWEVER allow me to point out that Colombian public universities DO produce undergraduate students who are accepted into graduate programs in more "developed" countries like the US and European Nations. To me this says alot. It says that at a basic university level the education is good enough to compete on an international scale. Graduate level, maybe not - Specialised international researchers go where the money is, and Colombia can't compete with the huge paycheques other countries can offer.

Why might Colombia have decent undergrad education? Well things are cheaper there. Just like a meal that costs $20 in the US can cost the equivelant of $4 in Colombia. Ask around, uni lecturers in Colombia are not neccessarily raking in the dough, BUT that doesn't mean that commitment to teaching is non-existant. Most undergrad education also doesn't require cutting edge technology.

As for the goodness of American high school, I'd have to say that compared to the rest of the industrialised, stable modern countries of the world it isn't that great. Literacy is 12th place out of 20 high-income countries. In Math skills, US students ranked 24th out of 29 OECD nations.

Now if you really are keen on doing a US vs Col here is one on literacy in population over 15 yrs old:

US total pop = 97 %
Col total pop = 92.5 %
Brazil total pop = 87.4 %

(from http://www.nationmaster.com/country/br)

Not too shoddy.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

caslug says on Jun 24, 2005, 22:51:

let me put it this way.. Would you rather have a degree from a US/CAD/(1st world) Uni or degree from COL? Assuming you want a degree that is "Transferable" anywhere in the world. Businesses that hire people will look MORE favorable on degree from 1st world country, regardless of WHAT the TRUE quality of it is. I don't know ANY US companies that will take a 3rd world degree over a 1st world degree when hiring.

I'm NOT saying that student in the US ARE SMARTERS. I'm saying that the "perception/repuation" of the US Uni(on average) is ALOT better. Plus as you stated graduate programs are "better" and you said it, may COL apply to graduate programs abroads. I suspect that more int'l student apply to go to US uni than US student apply to go to 3rd world country Uni. not withstanding exchange program.

At the public school level, student HAVE to go to school AND it's FREE(heck they even give you free lunch). So when i stated that US public school is better, i'm taking into account everything the mindset of the society. You see lot less street children in the US than COL. I saw bunch of street children in Peru, and ask my friend if school is free. He said yes, but parents don't care about education so the kids work. This happens in COL also. BTW, I'm dissing on COL, COL cannot be expect to be on the same level as a 1st world country. That's like saying, COL military is only a LITTLE less powerful than the US, because COL soldier as JUST as BRAVE.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Rubiazo says on Jun 24, 2005, 22:58:

hmm I have two parents a brother a sister in law AND an ex-wife all in education.
Us education system varies a lot from place to place, but in general it SUCKS. I would put Colombian grade schools and high schools over US OR Canadian ones any day. It's not a big accomplishment though. That is really one of the things this country should be ASHAMED of is how bad a job we do in education. It's just not a priority here.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

terco panzone says on Jun 24, 2005, 23:36:

opinion I only have experience with my own fiancees child(12) in the school system in colombia. It's a private school, I don't know anything about the colombian public school system. I do know the education he is getting certainly seems on a par with US schools (public) of the same grade level. The thing that strikes me the most however is the attitude of the children. It is lightyears better then their american counterparts. They seem to thoroughly enjoy it and look forward to going. And I haven't seen any of the problems I see in american schools like drugs or delinquent activity. (yet) In fact, my fiancee doesn't particulary want to send her boy to an american school after we are married for these reasons.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

platano says on Jun 25, 2005, 00:05:

Being literate is one thing...being educated another... I think the 1979 statistics put USA literacy rate at 97% and Colombia at 92.5%.
The 2002 statistics from the Human Development Report puts USA at 99% and Colombia at 92.1% (The USA ranks eighth in the world. Desi's part of the world is ranked higher).

Given Colombia's economic and social problems and its political turmoil, I agree with adrimm... "not too shoddy"

Literacy aside, I believe Colombian children receive a better K-6 education. I don't have enough experience with high school or university education levels, except for medical training, which I believe is better in Colombia than USA, based on USMLE test scores taken by Colombians and gringos.

If you compare USA K-12 with other industrial developed countries K-12 there is no contest... the gringo education system math and science test scores cannot compete. To say that is not USA bashing, it's just a fact.

A 99% USA functional literacy rate does not reflect educational attainment in math and science. Soon intellectual work will be outsourced from the USA to third world countries like Costa Rica or India or Colombia. Uhhh... wait a minute.... that is already happening!

Plátano, el banano verde
Oxigeno Verde ¡Libertad por Ingrid y los demás!

plátano

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 25, 2005, 01:58:

Maleorange 1: if you Colombia is a western Country and then what it is?
2: Einstein was German.
Where you putting attention in class?.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

quindioman says on Jun 25, 2005, 02:05:

i'm taking the bait ok geezer....
"The only thing I know is that when i was in Colombia children as young as 8 were given home work of 2 hours each day which I thought was taking away thier childhood"....maleorange
Yes, i can personally vouch for the fact that we are given homework at that age....I'm proud of the fact that i knew all my times tables off by heart by the time i was 7 and no...it doesn't take anything away from your childhood....I have the fondest memories of my childhood back home and i get very sentimental every time I go back to Armenia.
In the UK a seven year old has trouble reading and basic arithmentic, let alone multiplication, and they excel in the fine art of teenage tearawayism. While i'm here comparing the 2 why don't i give the example of me and my cousin who were bought up side by side...we are both the same age....i left Colombia when i was 9...he stayed.....i came to London and within 10 years I was dropping out of A-levels and smoking pot, my cousin in the meantime was winning year after year of education and he is now a high ranking officer in the FAC (Fuerza Aerea Colombiana).....he's never touched drugs, and i'm pretty convinced that I would not have turned out to be such a loser had my parents left me back home....i don't regret the way things have panned out but I can't help thinking what my life would be like had my parents left me in Colombia

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 25, 2005, 03:04:

kerry needs to go back to school I agree with you kat. However, Don't hold him as an example of the failure of the school system in the UK; there are always good and bad students in every school class.

I don't know if pushing the academics at the tender age of six is really desirable either. I know that in Colombia the kids are at least two years ahead of their Swedish counterpart on math levels. I know that the kids are taught to read early and have a lot of homework, tests etc. at an early age. We don't and the Finnish school is the best in the world, according the Pisa study. There are, seemingly, two main reasons why the education in Finland has reached such high level: 1)teachers are highly respected, have a high status in the society. 2)the poor students, the dyslectics, the underachievers receive individual help and support: we have raised the bottom.

My only critisism about the Colombia school system is that it is elitist. While the offspring of the wealthy families receive excellent primary and secondary education and are often sent abroad to finish their studies in US or European universities, the middle class kids go to national universities and the working class kids get some training at a trade school, if they are lucky. Everybody seems want to be a doctor, a lawyer or an engineer. I believe there are enough of those already in Colombia, what the country needs is more intermediate level professionals and skilled technicians.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 25, 2005, 03:31:

I agree with Cockney, I wish the school here leave a lot of homeworks and projects like we do in Colombia, it will take a lot of troublemakers out of the street and keep them occupied, My kids sometimes said they bored, hell if they have homework and researches they wouldn't have time to be bored. Homeworks don’t kill anybody it will help to with the family unity too. But saying all of that here in the UK pupils don't respect anymore the teacher, this government gave a lot of power to pupils so they can really do wherever they want. No wonder hardly everybody wants to teach now. We need discipline back to UK schools BRING THE CANE BACK jeje only joking ;-)

0 funny, 0 helpful.

N2Aquatix says on Jun 25, 2005, 03:52:

Subject And Verb Agreement I have just one question concerning Colombian high school education. My fiancee graduated high school and is very intelligent in my opinion. I write and speak in formal and correct spanish. She has a problem understanding the spoken sometimes, but I don't use a lot of really involved phrases and tenses when I speak because obviously I have to convert the language in my head on the fly. When I write however, I use much more intricate sentence development because I have the time to do so. She has a serious problem understanding some of that. My question is this: It's her native language so why is it hard for her sometimes to understand what I'm saying? She can obviously speak spanish at light speed compared to me, but when she does so, she butchers the language to the point that I have to throw all the tenses out in order to understand her. Is it common in Colombia to disregard proper subject and verb agreement?

Jay

0 funny, 0 helpful.

quindioman says on Jun 25, 2005, 05:05:

kat i empathise when you worry about your daughter.....she is very beautiful indeed and I can see why you are concerned when she becomes a teenager.
This country (England) I have a lot to thank for but I know that the education system here is not smelling of roses.....you are very right when you say that the pupils do whatever they want to (and they invariably do), binge drinking (i was eating some chicken and chips last night-when 3 teenage girls passed by completely drunk and giving me the wan**r sign....the incident actually made me laugh) but you walk into any town/city centre in England at 1 am on a friday/saturday night and these kids make you really consider giving up alcohol.....is it any wonder why the English have one (if not the highest) teenage pregnancy rates in the world?
Cannabis....it's quite disconcerting that I can walk down any London street/road smoking a spliff (as i invariably do) and people would not bat an eyelid...now, I always appreciated that, but when you look at it from your side of the fence (mother, non-smoker) I would start to worry.....do you think I would ever dare to smoke a doobie whilst walking down the road in Armenia? Are you nuts? I had to go where the coffee grows or where the plantains are maturing for me to get high in Armenia....I think this is much better...keep the drugs out of the neighbourhood, as they say ignorance is bliss.....why do I have a raging weed habit? Because I got too curious as a teenager and have not been strong enough since then to kick the habit once and for good.
Kat i could never tell you how to raise your kids but all I can say is listen to your kids, talk to them, enlighten them, equip them with the right skills needed for them to make that all inportant imformed decision.
I very much doubt your daughter turns out like me (and I would hate her to) but I believe she will make you extremely proud one day.
God Bless

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 25, 2005, 05:25:

cocney Is not only my daughter that I am worry about, but my son, He is 15 and some of his friend smoke cannabis, when I ask my son what their parents say, he said that they parents think that's all right "they will grow out of it" I can't believe that, I told my son the dangers of drug but will he listen? I don't know, He is love at home, we listen to him, but at that age his friend are his world so I hope he is not taking it. The school doesn't help much, I went to talk to the headmaster to raise my concern about Cannabis in the school, and to my surprise he said "well some of them are taking it but is not strong stuff" If teachers, parents allowed this, how can I make my son to understand that they are wrong, I hope he listening to me, but sometimes is like I am fighting this on my own.He is a good boy and very clever, and trying to set a good example at home, both my husband and me are non-smokers and not drinkers just the odd wine. But with kids you never know.

My daughter thank good is totally against drugs,and cigarretes. she hates to see people smoking. she was the one that make my husband stop, when she was 5 she used hide his cigarretes.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

quindioman says on Jun 25, 2005, 05:41:

it all boils down to the individual.
I didn't know you had a 15 year old son.
I don't want to worry you unnecessarily but I too would be concerned (especially if he admits his friends smoke).
I cannot say how your son will get on, both my parents are also non-smokers so it wasn't at home where I learnt to smoke.
I think that you are doing everything possible to minimise the risk of him being led astray. He sounds like a mature 15 year old, all i can say is carry on being the mother you have been for 15 years of his life.....i got a feeling that he will make you proud too

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Condorlisa Arroz says on Jun 25, 2005, 07:27:

calslug: US total pop = 97 % Col total pop = 92.5 % Brazil total pop = 87.4 % you forgot to write Cuba 98% The statistic is 98% literacy rate according to U.N. studies and the U.S. literacy rate is something close to 96.5%. But before you go calling Cuba a "third world nation" you should look at the incredibly low infant mortality rate, the phenomenal life expectancy, and the relatively high standard of living. The only reason they don't bloom into one of the most successful nations in the world is because of the U.S. embargo and bullying against any nation wishing to trade with Cuba. CA Montañas de Colombia

CA Montañas de Colombia

0 funny, 0 helpful.

adrimm says on Jun 25, 2005, 12:58:

Agree on K-6 better in Colombia than North America I studied one school year in Colombia (home school with Colombian books and my cousins taking turns teaching me) and upon my return, I was tested at being 3 grade levels ahead of my peers in math.

CondorLiza - I was the one that put the stats in. I threw a random Latin American example in. Chile has very high literacy as well. China has literacy of 86 %. Clearly more comes into it than political system/structure.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Cerealkiller says on Jun 25, 2005, 16:33:

Id say its very relative...It depends on where you go to school in Colombia. I did a couple of middle school years in Bogota and our English books were 7th grade books being used in 5th grade, same thing happens with maths.
It isnt surprising that international students do generally better on their SATs, which to me were a joke, but most kids havent learned english as their native language, yet they score higher than the average american high schooler.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

0 funny, 0 helpful.

utopiacowboy says on Jun 25, 2005, 22:19:

We've been all through this in an earlier thread. I doubt anything's changed much in the last 6 months.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

0 funny, 0 helpful.