Colombia's Uribe says Gore shunned him

miamimike says on Apr 20, 2007, 05:41:

I saw that Aztec,,, Sen Patrick Leahy wants a few answers to those death squads that are alledged to have connections to that Uribe Family Farm and also they want Uribe to offer more protection for Worker's Rights in Col. That 5% of Colombia's superwealthy who control 95% of the wealth want no change in the Status Quo and the destruction of a way of life they have enjoyed for decades,,,

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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toneloc24 says on Apr 20, 2007, 08:35:

Wow!!! Glad to see that SOMEONE...ANYONE in Washington is actually paying attention to the checks that are being cut. Uribe has some explaining to do. And it seems like the Albert Gonzales type of ducking won't cut it either. Holding the funding might just be a start to getting some real answers (yeah right)....or a new crop of "mysterious" deaths and disappearances in Colombia (more likely). There's definitely smoke all around the dude. No denying that.

Now if only Washington would shine the light BRIGHTLY on the current US administration in terms that the average US citizen could understand.... It's just as dirty there, with blood, literally, on hands.

I gotta agree with you, Rubi. Never liked the dude, esp. his wife and her cause. Then not having the nuts to defend himself in 2000. However, with his global warming campaign and now this Plan Colombia cause, I gotta admit that maybe he's starting to grow a pair. He's definitely better working outside of Washington.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

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juancegomez says on Apr 20, 2007, 09:33:

That's what he said yesterday night This might eventually have some positive effects, in the sense that it could prompt changes in U.S. policy towards Colombia, in a more constructive direction. Still, that depends entirely on what else is done, so it's still a matter of "wait and see".

However, even though I'm critical of Uribe's government and many things it has done, I won't automatically assume the worst and call for locking him up without a right to defend himself. There are definitely many accusations against Uribe, and he should be held accountable. That much I completely agree with. No need for personal attacks or premature exaggerations though. I find those pathetic when Uribe makes them, but those made against him aren't any better.

Even if some of them might be based on factual bits, I don't have "the truth" here in the palm of my hand and I doubt anyone else here has it either, so I prefer to avoid jumping to conclusions that I might later have to retract, fully or partially.

Thus I reiterate: Uribe should be held accountable and the accusations against him should be properly processed, to separate the ones that are actually true and which merit punishment from those that aren't and don't.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Apr 20, 2007, 11:59:

My bet Is that Gore didn't do or say any such thing and this is all much ado about nothing.

Uribe's awfully thin-skinned.

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juancegomez says on Apr 20, 2007, 12:15:

Mr. Hollywood He sure is, but it's not unlikely that Gore's staff could have made it known, off the record at first, that he wasn't going to attend because of Uribe's presence.

Apparently Gore's camp has reiterated that officially by now:
------
Statement from Gore's spokeswoman

This is a statement from Kalee Kreider, spokeswoman for former Vice President Al Gore:

``Former Vice President Gore regrets that he had to withdraw from the Poder magazine conference today. However, the allegations that have arisen over the past month and earlier this week are deeply troubling. He believes that President Uribe should have every opportunity to address these unsettled allegations in Colombia, but until this very serious chapter in history is brought to a close, Mr. Gore did not feel it was appropriate to appear at the event. President Uribe was not a part of the event when former Vice President Gore accepted the invitation. His role was added much later and the nature of the event changed.

``Former Vice President Gore will continue to seek out venues in the U.S., Latin America and around the world to continue to communicate about the urgency of the climate crisis and hopes that the conference will be a success.''

http://www.miamiherald.com/579/story/81270.html

----

IMHO, the bit saying that "the nature of the event changed" is BS, but whatever...

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Golden Boy says on Apr 20, 2007, 12:20:

"but I'm starting to get some respect for the man if he can stand up to a piece of garbage like Uribe."

Rubito, you have it backwards. Uribe shouldn't sweat being shunned by a piece of garbage like Gore. Uribe can at least point to a transformation of Colombia for the better under his leadership. What's Gore ever done besides look like the world's biggest hypocrite when it came out his household uses 20 times more energy than the average American? His crappy movie has been debunked as hysteria and lies. He was part of an Administration that sold off dangerous technology to the Chinese, and looked the other way while bin Laden was studying flight plans. He goes abroad trashing America in paid speeches before radical Islamists.

You can bet Gore wouldn't have shunned Chavez.

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scotty says on Apr 20, 2007, 12:47:

if Uribe is a piece of garbage as you say then that must make Gore an even bigger piece of trash. Al Gore is a joke, a wanna be hollywood joke. He cant get elected prez so he is trying to come in the back door riding on the jollywood and the so called greens dollar. Gore is a snob and a fake.just watching him speak makes me ill.I see right through that guy.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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Simon says on Apr 20, 2007, 12:51:

"but I'm starting to get some respect for the man if he can stand up to a piece of garbage like Uribe."

Mire quien habla!

"Tu vas a ver, llegaras a mi edad y veras que Colombia seguira igual"-----Simon Sr.

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scotty says on Apr 20, 2007, 13:09:

hopeless if you respect a idiot like Gore then there is nothing i can say or do to help you. This guy could give a shit about Colombia ( probably couldnt even find it on a map). Gore is all about showbiz, all about himself, he is a 100% fake. The guy flys around the world preahing about something he knows nothing about at the same time burning up tons of fuel into the atmosphere, living in a huge energy urning home, meanwhile snubbing Uribe. What a phoeny!

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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billyb says on Apr 20, 2007, 13:25:

I would consider getting shunned by Gore.. a compliment. Anybody that has to hire a consultant (a feminist like Wolfe at that) to teach him how to behave like an Alfa Male is just pathetic. We don't need that hypocrite ahole's approval.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Apr 20, 2007, 13:35:

Well, if the Gore bit is true it confirms for me that Big Al is running for president. Why else would he give a shit about sharing a forum with someone under a shadow of investigation in a remote South American republic?

Looks like he doesn't want any embarrassing photos of Al and Alvaro sitting side by side in the event Uribe goes down.

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scotty says on Apr 20, 2007, 13:47:

politics You are right Hollywood, its all about politics. It seems everything that happens nowadays is about politics or money and this latest Gore thing is political. He is running for office without actually running for office. This whole global warming stuff, his speeches, the Uribe snub its all political. The guy is a fake, i trust Gore about as far as i can through a tractor.
Being snubbed by Gore would be great, you know you're doing something right when a jackass like Gore snubs you. I bet Gore wouldnt snub Castro or Chavez but he'll snub americas friend Uribe. get used to it people this is the wave of americas future, the liberals are in charge and its only gonna get worse before it gets better, "hang on to your wallets because the taxes are gonna go up and hang onto your freedoms because they are gonna go down".

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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Simon says on Apr 20, 2007, 14:20:

"I'd like to find your mother and kick her in the womb!"


At least I had one!

"Tu vas a ver, llegaras a mi edad y veras que Colombia seguira igual"-----Simon Sr.

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Simon says on Apr 20, 2007, 14:25:

"Why else would he give a shit about sharing a forum with someone under a shadow of investigation in a remote South American republic?'


Mr. Hollywood,

A remote South American republic? How can Colombia be "remote" when it's just over two hours away from Miami? That sounds pretty condescending to me.

"Tu vas a ver, llegaras a mi edad y veras que Colombia seguira igual"-----Simon Sr.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Apr 20, 2007, 14:26:

I like Al Gore (AND I like Uribe) And actually find it hilarious that anyone would be railing against the "liberal conspiracy" to destroy America's economy and freedoms after what we've seen in the WH and Capitol Hill for the last 6 years.

Clearly having the so-called "conservatives" running things hasn't worked out so well.

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miamimike says on Apr 20, 2007, 15:46:

Uribe is Our Friend as Long as the USDs keep flowing thru Plan Colombia. Once the $$$ stop so does the US/Col/Uribe Friendship. I hope History proves us wrong but I doubt it! BTW it was Clinton Gore Administration who started the $$$ flowing thru Plan Colombia so to say Gore ignores our Friend Colombia is simply not true nor borne out by the Historical Facts!


FactCheck:Exerpt from below link---- "Asked about Gore's policy towards Colombia, from 1999-2000, Ginsberg said the vice
president Gore "has been a champion of Plan Colombia. We recognize the
importance of working cooperatively with our friends in Latin America
to ensure that the objectives of Plan Colombia are accomplished
without causing undue concern among our allies in the region."

U.S. assistance to Plan Colombia "is a perfect illustration of how Al
Gore has worked hard to fashion a bipartisan consensus with the major
leadership in the Congress on a matter of great concern to us among
our friends in the hemisphere," Ginsberg said."

http://www.fas.org/news/usa/2000/usa-001027a.htm

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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juancegomez says on Apr 20, 2007, 15:56:

miamimike I can't pretend to know what Uribe himself would do in such circumstances...

But actually, with a few notable (though different) exceptions, even before Plan Colombia the U.S. and Colombia have had mostly friendly relations at a the government level for quite some time. I wouldn't say that relationship depends exclusively on Plan Colombia, even if that's one of its most recent manifestations.

Plus, you do know that it is the U.S. Congress that approves how the Plan Colombia resources (not all of them monetary, despite popular imagery and its inclination to paint everything in terms of dollars) are being assigned and spent.

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Miguel_Clavo says on Apr 20, 2007, 16:17:

With or without the money the Donkeys are playing with, Colombia will continue as they have with or without the money, just like prior to PC. And, i think that since Colombia seems to be the leading democracy in SA, there will always be a friendly link there.

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo =)..aka, DragonSlayer...Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Miguel says on Apr 20, 2007, 16:57:

Necessary evils Uribe, Gore, and back in the day, Los Pepes.

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miamimike says on Apr 20, 2007, 17:08:

I don't believe Colombia is the leading Democracy in SA that goes to Chile. Chile has come a long long way in a reletively short way,,,

JG, the relationship may not entirely hinge on plan Col $$, but it sure appears that way from all the wrangling going on in Washington. I think Col needs to do more to justify it as Cocaine supply is Way up here in the USA as well as Quality. That tells me something isn't up to snuff on the Drug War. Another thing, what about these Human Right Abuses that Uribe apparently knows more about then he wants to disclose? What has happened to all those News Paper Reporters(shot) and Union Organizers killed at the Colombia Coca Cola Plant a few years ago? I hope these matters are resolved before more $$ is doled out!

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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billyb says on Apr 20, 2007, 18:30:

Chile's democracy is only taking baby steps... compared to Colombia's. The generals are quiet for now, but have no doubt that Michelle knows quite well which lines not to cross.

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miamimike says on Apr 20, 2007, 18:57:

Baby Steps Compared to What? What do we talk about First? Security, Mortality Rates, Stable Currency, Commodity Exports, Tourism(skiing, fishing, hunting) Education, Medical Access, Available Potable Drinking Water, Poverty rates, ect,,,

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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Miguel says on Apr 20, 2007, 19:01:

Agree with Mike Colombia is number one in my heart, but Chile has so much going for it.

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billyb says on Apr 20, 2007, 19:11:

What do any of things that Mike mentioned... have to do with the how deep democracy runs in a country? All the things he mentioned are quality of life issues, in which I think we all agree Chile beats Colombia hands down. If we go by the things Mike considers democracy, then Cuba is the most democratic country in Latin America. But let things get a little hairy in either country (like Colombia isn't already) and see which one sees the tanks on the street first.

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miamimike says on Apr 20, 2007, 19:34:

Chile had a problem not many years back and seems like they are well on their way to resolving their problem. The economics pretty well say it all, many foreign companies are flocking to invest there as are tourists, so if Chile was perceived to have a security problem this would not be occurring. Multinational companies, bottom line, look at a country's security and if they are not secure or feel that they are, its a no go.Corruption is high on the list also and Chile has gone a long way to eradicate corruption so companies feel its safe to invest there. While I hope Colombia someday attains the same status, they are light years away from that point today.

Talk to me on how I consider Cuba a democracy! Show me a post where I have said that! What Cuba does(as well as Venezuela)is their OWN business and not the business of the USA. I recognize them as Sovereign Nations and cannot see them as a current Potential Military Threat to the USA. BTW I still remember most of the 9/11 Terrorists who crashed those planes into the Towers in NYC, killing 3000 Americans came from Saudi Arabia, who we consider friends,,,Enough friends like that we don't need enemies. BTW, are they a Democracy?? When ABC Diane Sawyer was there a few weeks ago, she brought out the fact that Women cannot vote, Run for Office, need to wear a Burka Head Towel when they are out in Public ect,,,They too are our friends also only because we buy Oil at super inflated prices for our SUVs,,,

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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billyb says on Apr 20, 2007, 20:08:

Amen Rubito... could not have explained it better myself. Maybe Mike needs to consult a dictionary to better understand the meaning of democracy. I'll save you the trouble, according to Funk and Wagnalls Standard Encyclopidic Dictionary, Democracy is: A form of governament where political power resides in all the people and is exercised by them directly or is given to elected representatives. Nowhere does it speak about quality of life issues.

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miamimike says on Apr 20, 2007, 20:54:

Hmm Last I knew in Chile they had Democratic Elections that is one measure of a Democracy, is it not? Discount all the other things mentioned prior but this a Key element of Democracy, having the right to vote(as they do in Chile)for a candidate of their Choice? Where is it written you have to to have all these other precursors before you have the freedom to vote and elect a person of your Choice? Maybe you misunderstood me,,,

===================================================================

"could not have explained it better myself. Maybe Mike needs to consult a dictionary to better understand the meaning of democracy. I'll save you the trouble, according to Funk and Wagnalls Standard Encyclopidic Dictionary, Democracy is: A form of governament where political power resides in all the people and is exercised by them directly or is given to elected representatives. Nowhere does it speak about quality of life issues."

===================================================================

Does this not apply to Chile? Last I knew it did,,,BTW, Rubito in Primary Preventive Care and Prenatal Care Cuba has a pretty good record but it pretty much goes downhill after that lack of Basic supplies, meds,ect. Not to mention 1000s of Cuba's Doctors have been sent to Venezuela and Sub Saharan countries so many neighborhood cuban clinics are lacking these days,,,

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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billyb says on Apr 20, 2007, 21:14:

Whatever Mike... you are confusing issues and letting idealogy cloud your otherwise intelligent observations. Btw, one of the concepts we are discussing is how deep that democracy runs. We already know how much Colombia's will withstand, can you vouch for how much Chile's will?

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CaritadeAngel says on Apr 20, 2007, 21:27:

Democracy is A symptom of economic development, not the cause, and that being said, I don't consider that the United States actually has one in any real sense of the world. Powerful economic constituancies - such as the gun lobby and Monsanto - hold far more sway with Senate and Congress than ordinary American people. There is also no real political diversity, (the two major parties being like night and...er...later on that night, and where you do not have political diversity, you do not have democracy. And until the last US Election, the voter turn out was really low.

Sure I love my freedom. But other cultures may not want it, or need it, or be ready for it. Look at Iraq. Ready for a representative democracy? I don't think so. Or what about Singaporeans, who don't mind their "elected dictatorship", because their standard of living is so high?






"Five things bring us closer to the unseen: the act of love, the birth of a baby, being in the pressence of death or disaster, the contemplation of great art, and the human voice lifted in song".

"I hope I never say anything worth quoting".

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billyb says on Apr 20, 2007, 21:33:

Carita, as imperfect as it is... who would you say has more freedom than people in the USA? And please, spare us the dogma.

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Simon says on Apr 20, 2007, 21:40:

"What do we talk about First? Security, Mortality Rates, Stable Currency, Commodity Exports, Tourism(skiing, fishing, hunting) Education, Medical Access, Available Potable Drinking Water, Poverty rates, ect,,,"


*************************************************************8

Hey buddyboy...here's just a few things where Colombia kicks Chile's (what an ugly name for a country...yuck!) ass:

Produces the richest coffee in the world.
Is an important exporter of bananas and exotic fruits.
Has the biggest export-oriented steam coal mine in the world, "El Cerrejón North Zone", an open pit mine capable of producing 15 million metric tons of coal per year.
Is the second richest country in bird species in the world, after Brazil.
Has abundant oil and natural gas reserves.
Is an important producer of platinum, gold and silver.
Is the second richest country in biodiversity in the world, after Brazil.
Is the major world source of emeralds.


There's lot more where that came from, but that list is just too damn long!

"Tu vas a ver, llegaras a mi edad y veras que Colombia seguira igual"-----Simon Sr.

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Simon says on Apr 20, 2007, 21:42:

"who would you say has more freedom than people in the USA?"

Um let's see, fro starters, if I wanna get laid in Colombia, I can go out and obtain that so easily (prostitution). If you have that sudden urge in the US, you'd better go rent some porn and break out Mr. Hand.

Now that's freedom!

"Tu vas a ver, llegaras a mi edad y veras que Colombia seguira igual"-----Simon Sr.

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Miguel_Clavo says on Apr 20, 2007, 21:57:

Dont you live in the US, SImon? is that what you do???? every state in the US has prostitution....the trick here is not getting caught, nor catching some disease that they havent given a name to......and to say that the US is only free in peoples minds is a joke....


Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo =)..aka, DragonSlayer...Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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billyb says on Apr 20, 2007, 22:10:

Rubi, I will agree... that RICO can be a crutch for incompetent police and DAs. And Simon, if you have to resort to Mr. Hand, that certainly seems like a personal problem ;)

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miamimike says on Apr 20, 2007, 22:11:

BillyB- I have read several chapters on Chile's History and it certainly appears to me they have been tested over the last 100 years. For the past several decades they have several Political Parties and have went back and forth between right wingers to middle of the road to Socialist leaning Goverments to coup d' etat ect. I fail to how you can say freedom/democracy hasn't been tested in this Andean Nation as compared to Colombia. In spite of this they have moved ahead and put the Pinochet years behind them and cleaned their act up. I guess we just aren't on the same page on this one and thats where it will end for me. Neither of us will be changing each other's opinion but that was not my intention anyhow. I like Colombia and will continue to visit but Chile has it going on,,,What is to prevent Colombia from returning to a leftist Rule or Non Democratic Rule BTW? As close as Mexico is to the US look what almost happened in Mexico's recent election by a few votes, reletively speaking? Look at us the USA, have we really been tested as a Young Nation, only but a few hundred years old as a Democracy, actually a Republic to be technical! Maybe when we get a few hundred more years under our belt we can crow but not yet,,,If one reads the rise and fall of the Roman Empire you can cull similarities between us and the Romans such as a Devalued Money system(off the gold standard)and great Debt, An Overstretched and somewhat depleated military Military fighting great distances from our home shores ect. What is cast in stone that guarentees our Democracy surviving in perpetuity?
http://www.answers.com/topic/chile

Rubito you are right about an Erosion of Liberty/Rights, look what happened to the writ of Habeas Corpus not too long ago,,,

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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billyb says on Apr 20, 2007, 22:23:

Mike the argument is not about liking Chile... and what it has accomplished. Chile is one of my favorite countries in SA (the world for that matter), but you said that democracy was stronger in Chile than in Colombia and I have to take exemption to that. I believe that recent history has proven that Colombia's democracy has been exceptionally recilient, specially when you take into account all the upheavals it has faced and weathered. Now compare that to how Chile's democracy reacted to its most recent crisis, it resulted in 17 years of military reprecion (although, i'm not sure I disagree with the reaction).

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miamimike says on Apr 20, 2007, 23:25:

Rubito When I say Leftists Goverments in Colombia I am referring to their Influence within the Goverment of Colombia. Its no secret that in the 80s-90s they wielded a lot of Power. Huge tracts of lands without civilzed rule for decades,,, They(drug cartel) financed Samper's Presidental Run and were rewarded after he got into office. In many cases they WERE the de facto goverment! On Democratic rule, how do account for all those Newspapers Owners, Colombian Journalists(100s)killed in the last 30 years? Symptomatic of a True Democracy I ask? Report the news as it is and end up mowed down by machine gunners on a Motorcycle?? How about all the trade Unionists that have been murdered in the last several decades, their biggest crime was attempting to get the Poor Underclass Colombian Workers Organized and a fair wage and Job Protection. This was Democracy in name only,,,Granted things have changed for the Better but still needs much improvement. Even then outsiders are largely responsible for improving the wages of small coffee farmers through the Fair Trade Principle where out of country groups contract the sales of Beans to outside companies like Starbucks. Where is the Colombian Goverment on this? The Status Quo doesn't like changes,,,

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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billyb says on Apr 20, 2007, 23:40:

And Colombian democracy marches along.. all the same. BTW, Mike the Cali Cartel, which was the one that financed samper's campaign ( to the tune of $6 million) did not in fact benefit from their generosity. In an effort to prove that he was not beholden to the Cartel he actually (with the help of the US) initiate a war on the Cali Cartel, which eventually led to its atomization into a hundred little "Cartelitos" that morphed into what is now know as " El Cartel del Norte del Valle", pretty similar to what happened when Joe Kennedy had the Mafia guarantee Jack's presidential election in Chicago and then the Kennedy's double crossed them and we know how that ended.

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goin_south says on Apr 20, 2007, 23:43:

Now, he's an AMERICAN...(north, of course) (((we practically invented the modern road system as the world knows it but it's killing us to keep it maintained,))))

Overall, (if you would ever venture out, into the highways and byways, of America (north, of course) you find some pretty freaqn great and well maintained roads.... AS COMPARED TO COLOMBIA.

MAYBE WHEN YOU FINALLY GET DOWN THERE... you can improve the roads, instead of so much work on the national anthem. It will make for more comfort, for the people. (I don't think so many of them are hurting from the national anthem.)

Where do we go from here?

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billyb says on Apr 20, 2007, 23:50:

As a matter of fact most Colombians.. are extremely proud of our anthem and we don't need foreigners coming and "improving " it.

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goin_south says on Apr 21, 2007, 00:15:

Al gore..... a Foqn Payaso Maximo

Where do we go from here?

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billyb says on Apr 21, 2007, 00:26:

Maybe he belongs in the.... Circus Maximus...

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goin_south says on Apr 21, 2007, 01:06:

then, you'd need bob dylan... singing vallenato songs.

Where do we go from here?

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scotty says on Apr 21, 2007, 03:20:

Rubito you are right you do have to watch your back, but that can be said about everywhere and anywhere. Look at venezuela, look at Iraq and all the middle eastern countries, look at Russia,Putin is poisening his competition, All politics is dirty in all countries.live with it!

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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scotty says on Apr 22, 2007, 20:38:

letters sent this morning i sent out emails to every person i know in Colombia appologizing for Al Gores stupidity.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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juancegomez says on Apr 23, 2007, 10:15:

miamimike: Needless to say, I am not a friend of the drug war, at any level. I even consider its existence counterproductive as far as fighting the rest of the actual war goes.

I would point out that Colombia has had the problems you've mentioned for more than a few years, although things have improved and many structural factors are still considerably better than they were 100 years ago, for example, by most accounts.

But these problems are complex. Automatically blaming any single individual or artificially created monoliths for any of these problems isn't going to help matters. The devil is in the details, and thus the details do make a difference.

Btw, the attempted "Chile vs. Colombia" debate really has no point though. Colombia may not be Chile, but it does have more democratic credentials than many people realize at first glance. It is not a perfect model of democracy by any means, but history does show that, ironically enough, the 20th century saw an increase in both democratization and violence. There's a strong tradition behind the division of powers, including a quite independent judiciary and a press that, not without risks, can and does criticize both the central government and local politicians on a regular basis.

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Monpirri says on Apr 24, 2007, 18:30:

Cuba??? Otherwise known as “El museo del Mundo” Anyone who tries to open a church in Cuba goes to jail.
Cubans earn about $10/month or $120 at year. Automobiles are so old and very expensive!! A bicycle costs about $150, one can't afford to buy one because they only earn about $120 at year.
Steak, fish are available and sold to tourists only. Cubans are not allowed to eat meat nor they are allowed to enter a restaurant, if a Cuban dares to get inside of a restaurant they would not dare to eat steak in public because if they are caught they would be sentenced to jail.
Woman cannot afford use sanitary towels because it costs $4.50 and remember they make $10.00 per month.
Medicine? There is a huge shortage of it, that’s why visitors and missionaries bring lots of it to help the poor.

God bless the United States and God bless Colombia!

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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Deal_with_it says on Apr 24, 2007, 19:14:

What Cuba is this? The $10 a month,the no kotex?
they cant eat meat,or go to Church.
This is not Cuba the country,next time you in Colombia,
take Avianca or Copa to Havana,the both fly daily to Havana
the Cubans wont stamp your U.S. pass port,and will give you
a worm welcome,far more like Castro and his stupid Commie
ways,and far fewer want to leave Cuba.Turn of the Fox and
go see for your self.

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Monpirri says on Apr 24, 2007, 19:25:

Cuba you can have it. I have managed to meet someone who has been visiting Cuba for the past four months. They will return back to Cuba in June or July and I will bring you, if I remember, more news about this wonderful country where many have died trying to leave the island.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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Deal_with_it says on Apr 24, 2007, 19:26:

Cuba today A Cuba Vacation


By Suzanne Morrison

Travel Guide




Taking time out from the everyday stresses and strains of life to visit an exotic place is something that everyone looks forward to. Cuba, with its notoriety brought upon by its government and the clamp down of the American government on its export and tourism, is a country known more for its cigar and its leader, rather than as a vacation destination. Despite this, every year more and more tourists from Canada and Europe are flocking to Cuba, enthralled by its natural beauty and its passionate and welcoming people. Tourism in Cuba is currently at an all time high.

Cuba is the largest of the Caribbean islands and is inhabited by people with a mixed race of Caribbean Indian, African and Spanish heritage. It has a contrasting landscape ranging from beautiful and mesmerizing beaches to sprawling and craggy mountain ranges. Limestone Mountains loom over the fields of tobacco, utilised for their famed cigars, providing a stunning scenic view. The natural beauty of Cuba and its history has shaped the country to what it is today. This is one Caribbean island that has been left unspoiled by technology and modern day living.

Like many of the Caribbean islands, Cuba’s main source of tourism is the beach industry. The country is blessed with hundreds of miles of sprawling sandy beaches, with fine white sand and clear blue water. Tourists visiting Cuba have a multitude of choices for the location of their beach vacation. The major resorts of Varadero and Cayo Largo are the most renowned and here you’ll find many 5 star all inclusive resorts. Despite this, there are also plenty of smaller, quieter beach resorts where you can truly get away from it all.

Aside from stunning beaches, Cuba also offers plenty of rustic towns and cities full of rich culture and heritage. A vacation to Cuba isn’t complete without visiting at least one of the Cuban towns or cities and meeting the local Cuban people.

In the north-west of the country you’ll find the capital city, Havana - the hub of everything that is Cuban. When you stroll around the city you’ll feel the essence of the Cuban past - a rich legacy emanating from the Spanish colonial architecture that beholds the city. Parts of the city resemble the set of an old movie, reminiscent of a bygone era, with old American cars bustling by. A lot of work has been done in the past decade to restore old Havana, a UNESCO world heritage site, but much of the city has been left untouched and hundreds of crumbling buildings collapse each month.

Havana also has its fair share of museums, including the Museum of the Revolution, the Havana Club Museum of Rum, the Cigar Museum, the Ernest Hemingway Museum and the National Museum of Fine Arts.

Santiago de Cuba is the second largest city in Cuba and is located on the eastern end of the island. It has a beautiful setting at the foot of the Sierra Maestra Mountains and overlooks a magnificent bay. Unlike the other towns and cities in Cuba, Santiago de Cuba has a very Caribbean feel to it. This is as a result of the influence of the Haitian planters who settled here in the 19th century.

Trinidad, located in the heart of Cuba is one of the original towns and was founded in 1514. The city is filled with cobbled streets and old buildings with tiled roofs and has been a UNESCO World Heritage Site since 1988. It’s a very pleasant city to spend a day or two, with many museums, churches and Plazas.

An ideal way to spend your vacation is to take a few days to do some sightseeing in Havana or one of Cuba’s other cities and then follow that up with a relaxing week’s stay in one of the luxurious all inclusive resorts by the beach.

About the Author



Suzanne is the webmaster of SuzannesTravels.com. You can read about her recent vacation to Cuba in her Cuba Blogs, where you’ll find information and reviews of her stay in Guardelavaca, Holguin and Havana

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Monpirri says on Apr 24, 2007, 19:44:

Dude Cuba vacation is a complete different story from the everyday life in Cuba! Cuba vacation is a pitch.
I may even invite here those three professionals who visit Cuba every three months.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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miamimike says on Apr 24, 2007, 20:04:

This NO Medicine Business in Cuba Simply is Untrue,,, Case in Point, a Cuban Neighbor(expat) went to Cuba on Vacation a few months back to visit family. She went to a Neighborhood clinic, had all her teeth fixed for next to nothing. The Clinic never knew she was an ex Pat from Miami so she received practically free dental work. Next she went to her neighborhood Pharmacy and purchased Antibiotics and keep in mind, she had no extrordinary political influence ect. She purchased close to 100 Antibiotic tablets(amoxicillin)for a couple cents each(.02). 100 was more then she needed(though she could have purchased more has she wished as they had more on hand at the pharmacy)so she gave me 40 pills free. Now if Medicine was so hard to buy, why was this person able to buy 100 Antibiotics? Truth is, many of these Far Right Miami Exiles paint a different picture then what reality really is. I know some here will say this is BS but I have to believe her(she actually was there so no hearsay ), I was the recipient of some of 100 free pills in hand(had the cuban mark on the airtight blister packaging)she had no reason to spin a lie,,,When these Far Right Miami Cuban Loonies tell you something, take it with a grain of salt, they are some of the biggest Bullshitters on the planet,,,LOL

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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utopiacowboy says on Apr 24, 2007, 20:11:

Uribe is complaining about Gore shunning him? Hell he should be frigging grateful for not having to listen to that pompous windbag. The hot air coming out of his pie hole would cause global warming by itself.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Monpirri says on Apr 24, 2007, 20:31:

I was able to confirm more details about Cuba I was able to confirm what my friend told me about Cuba and here are more facts:

Viva La Evolution
Does a taste of free enterprise mean the end for Fidel's Cuba
by Mack Tanner & Larry Grupp

The Special Period

"Bring them to my house." She spoke in Spanish, her voice almost a shout. "Let them see my hungry children. Let them see the real Cuba." The angry, distraught woman appeared suddenly out of the crowd to confront the Cuban government guide shepherding a bus load ot Canadian tourists through the streets of Havana. In her mid-30s and wearing a worn, dirty cotton print dress, she was thin, but she didn't seem to be starving.

"Get out of here!'' the guide told her. "Before you get in trouble!" He was embarrassed but not angry. He spoke in a quiet, sympathetic tone, sounding like he really was worried that a police officer might arrest the poor woman for committing one of the more serious street crimes in Havana today--doing anything that threatens the tourist industry. The woman, fear replacing the anger on her face, turned and walked away through a scattered crowd of Cuban pedestrians at a speed just slower than a trot. "What was that all about?" a Canadian tourist asked the guide.

"Nothing," he said. "She is just a crazy woman. She should be in a hospital." As the tour guide brushed off the incident, he looked at Mack Tanner, the only foreigner in the group who spoke Spanish. Both men knew that the woman didn't have any thing to give her children to eat that day. She wasn't crazy; she had been driven into anger by desperation and frustration--two emotions in great abundance in Cuba these days.

The people of Cuba are hungry, but they are not starving, at least not yet. They are doing without a lot of things--soap, shampoo, toilet paper, toothpaste, pencils, shoes, headache pills, vitamins, and even the single piece of meat per week for which they have ration coupons. The shortages interact and compound each other. Because of the frequent electricity blackouts, food in cold storage plants and home refrigerators spoils. Even if a factory has raw materials, workers don't show up because the buses aren't running.

Marta Garza, a hotel maid, had a similar story. "I took my father to the hospital last week." she told us. "The doctor told us he had to take an antibiotic drug, but that the hospital didn't have it in stock. The doctor wrote out the name of the medicine, and I had to go buy it on the black market. Because I work in the tourist trade, I had the dollars to buy it. Otherwise, my father would have died."

http://www.buildfreedom.com/tanner/evolution.shtml

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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Deal_with_it says on Apr 24, 2007, 21:04:

monpirri1 Have ever been to SanJose or Havana They arnt dying of scurvey in Cuba,and the street vendors
sell many hotdogs and Pizzas to the Local working class.
The best way to find out is go there,as you can get 10 versions
of how Dangerous Colombia is from 10 people.
Cuba has Castro(thats bad)but also some of the best Medical in the
world and great schools,and most of the locals I have meet in the
small towns and in Havana and San Jose,seem to eat meat and are
not making 10$ a week.They say most of Cartagena lives on less then
$ 2.00 a day(that B.S.).................Give Cuba the benfiet of the
same doubt you would Colombia...As both have bad reputations greatly
exagerrated......................

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Miguel_Clavo says on Apr 24, 2007, 21:06:

UG...sent you an email..... Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo =)..aka, DragonSlayer...Colombia es pasión!

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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aztec says on Apr 25, 2007, 04:23:

Uribe_Guilty , Do you really believe ... ...Cuba is a communist paradise. It is visible proof of misguided theories of the left.

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kalder says on Apr 25, 2007, 05:10:

U_G And the travel article you quoted says little more than: 'You can find hills, cigars and old cars in Cuba'. It does nothing to refute the evident truth that it's a bankrupt dictatorship.

Yes, schools and hospitals are good things. Seldom is any regime so bad that it has absolutely nothing to recommend it. But low mortality and illiteracy rates shouldn't blind us to the reality of murder, lies and repression. And all the rest of the Marxist experiment's absuses.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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miamimike says on Apr 25, 2007, 07:35:

In my Years of Working at the Federal Krome Detention center, I screened thousands of Cubans who passed through this Detention Center so my practical, daily hands on experience with this particular Immigrant gruop was more then a slight one week brief experience. The Cubans were the Healthiest Group from Latin America, actually they were healthier then many coming from Europe. They were disease free, had all vaccinations, good dental health(lack of gum disease, cavities, missing teeth ect). Most were not obese nor skinny but had a good height: weight ratio so no widespread lack of food or nutrition. The men and women overall were very well groomed. One came in with a Rolex Mariner Watch, first time I examined one close up as a matter of fact. Many came through with the Latest Cell Phones, footwear, designer clothing, Jewelry ect. Where they obtained these items beats me, maybe Miami reletives, tourists ect but they had 'em! There is a Vast Misconception floating around in the USA as to how desperate and malnourished the Cubans are and HOW they really are in Reality. Now look at some Immigrant from Sub-Saharan Africa or Haiti and you see immediately their Physical condition and lack of Consumer/material goods. Many were in extremely poor health, malnourished, + TB tests ect,,,Not so with the Cubans,,,

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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Monpirri says on Apr 25, 2007, 07:52:

Cuba??? I do not know why the same person always evokes to Cuba as a paradise
and he continues to compare Colombia to Cuba.
Yep, there are hungry people in Colombia and the US and other parts of the world.
Hear me loud and clear there is not freedom in Cuba and what the missionary told me about Cuba is the truth.


God bless the USA and Colombia.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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miamimike says on Apr 25, 2007, 09:25:

Who is evoking Cuba as a Paradise??? and who Compares Colombia to Cuba, please be more specific,,,

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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Miguel says on Apr 25, 2007, 09:32:

Tag! You're It, MiaMike Monpirri1 has spoken! (or the missionary)

I wonder if the missionary observed that those cubanos dance the best salsa in the world to the best salsa musicians in the world.

Hang in there, Mike.

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miamimike says on Apr 25, 2007, 16:20:

Rubito, believe the Music The Cubans call Salsa is really known as "Son" ; Is this true?

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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Monpirri says on Apr 25, 2007, 19:24:

Miamimike I was addressing only a person who has been airing propaganda about Cuba here for a long time!

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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utopiacowboy says on Apr 25, 2007, 20:04:

Simon is definitely right. I know the founding fathers wanted us to have freedom to fuck but we lost it over the years.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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