Colombia's Sugar Cane-to-Ethanol Industry

houstongal says on Jul 6, 2008, 13:35:

let's give this a sweet bump to the top

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Jul 6, 2008, 14:06:

Uhm I hope this don't affect the price of the Panela jejeje

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bamacellist says on Jul 6, 2008, 14:10:

The banana industy is hurting badly along the Atltantic coast due to the weakness of the dollar. http://www.elheraldo.com.co/ELHERALDO/BancoConocimiento/X/x1agoniza_ec...

I wonder if this is a viable replacement for some of these growers.

"The future is much like the present, only longer."

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Jul 6, 2008, 14:16:

No only the weakness of the dollar but the oil prices have affected many Industries even here in the UK

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webmanco says on Jul 6, 2008, 14:21:

Biocombustibles y Palma Africana tienen buena proyeccion

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

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huskie says on Jul 6, 2008, 14:31:

Soy Beans
Cheers

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds-"

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billyb says on Jul 6, 2008, 14:32:

Thanks for the article HG, I visited la Providencia when I was in cali a couple of months ago. With sugar you canuse all the detritus for ethanol, nothing goes to waste, so it ends the need to burn it after the harvest thus helping the enviroment that way also.

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houstongal says on Jul 6, 2008, 14:39:

Really? I didn't know that Billy. That's excellent! I was concerned about that when I read this article. I always remembered the fires and thick black smoke after harvest (they no longer grow sugar cane in the islands). I'm glad to hear that they're able to use the entire plant in making ethanol.

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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Catfish35 says on Jul 6, 2008, 17:41:

Houston, I'm with ya on that, remember the poor guys working the fires?
Look like West Virginia coal miners after and triple shift!

"So many guns, and so few brains". sam spade

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Ctg Bound says on Jul 6, 2008, 17:52:

billyb,

I thought they only used some of the cane for ethanol, the rest was waste?

The waste can be used for other things though, like the core of Fancy plywood.

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houstongal says on Jul 6, 2008, 18:13:

And they still do burn the fields in Louisiana. Burning sugar cane also smells pretty bad.

Catfish...where did you experience burning sugar cane?

CtgBound....my company used to sell fancy particle board (makes great floorboards) made with wheat stalks and polyurethane as the binder. Pretty impressive stuff. Imagine all those farmers that would normally till the stalks or throw it out would get paid to sell it to us. Unfortunately the market wasn't great and we ended up shutting down the business.

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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tejasmarcos says on Jul 6, 2008, 19:37:

energy investments in all categories will be big biz in colombia from this point on. it is nice to think the farmers can benefit from some of the products being considered including sugar cane, palm and jatropha amongst others. the problem is when the big guys start to overpower the little guys for the land grab as has been evidenced in Choco.

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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Ctg Bound says on Jul 7, 2008, 14:14:

houstongal,

Yes you would need a market, I don't know if any companies make Fancy plywood made out of sugar cane in Colombia, possibly there are some companies around Cali, I know of one company in Peru that sells it with part of the core as sugar cane.

There is a large market in Colombia for fancy plywood which is used in furntiture making, although they use other core materials presently.

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houstongal says on Jul 7, 2008, 14:48:

Ctg Bound - I think we were still ahead of our time (re: green materials) and there were also a lot of problems with the manufacturing process. At one point we even looked into buying a company that turned the wood into some really nice material for cabinetry and furniture (many of the Aveda spa and salons used it in their lobby area). I know that company was already in bankruptcy when we conducted the due diligence. I think at the time (early 2001 or 2002) people were not interested in paying a premium for green materials. Hopefully one day we'll see more alternative materials being used.

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Jul 7, 2008, 15:21:

Re burning the fields - I *thought* that was done to remove the sharp leaves and drive out pesky snakes and other vermin so the human cane cutters could do their work. In a recent story about Brazil's surging ethanol industry, I read that many of the cane cutters are being replaced with mechanical harvesting and loading equipment. That's good news for the environment (don't need to burn the fields) but bad news for unskilled laborers.

http://www.caneharvesters.com/index.php?option=com_akogallery&Itemid=2...

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billyb says on Jul 7, 2008, 15:38:

From what I understand (and I could be wrong, but that's what I was told), they can use the leaves and and the rest of the detritus in ethanol production.

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houstongal says on Jul 7, 2008, 15:54:

I don't know Tinto. We don't have snakes in Hawaii (thank you mongoose), but there probably were other vermin in the fields. As for the sharp leaves.....not sure about that either.

I agree, mechanical equipment is bad news for unskilled laborers. But good news for heavy equipment operators and mechanics.

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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Ctg Bound says on Jul 7, 2008, 16:17:

billyb,

I thought they just pressed the cane to get the liquid out and the rest was presently waste, unless somebody has a article showing me differant?

The next major stage of ethanol fuel is when they can use more of the waste from cane and other sources, but is not here on a commercial scale yet, a few years away hopefully.

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billyb says on Jul 7, 2008, 18:01:

"I thought they just pressed the cane to get the liquid out and the rest was presently waste"

CB, that's when you are making guarapo, but seriously, I am not sure of it, it is what i heard in cali. Will try to find out for sure.

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billyb says on Jul 7, 2008, 18:12:

"Current, first generation processes for the production of ethanol from corn use only a small part of the corn plant: the corn kernels are taken from the corn plant and only the starch, which represents about 50% of the dry kernel mass, is transformed into ethanol. Two types of second generation processes are under development. The first type uses enzymes and yeast to convert the plant cellulose into ethanol while the second type uses pyrolysis to convert the whole plant to either a liquid bio-oil or a syngas. Second generation processes can also be used with plants such as grasses, wood or agricultural waste material such as straw."


Seems like ethe merging process of cellulosic ethanol will allow the use of the waste, and work not only for sugar, but other fiberous plants such as switchgrass.

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Monpirri says on Jul 7, 2008, 18:56:

Houstongal, thank you very much.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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houstongal says on Jul 7, 2008, 21:53:

Billy - That's interesting about the amount of corn that is used to produce ethanol. I assume the other parts of the kernel that is not used in ethanol is used as feed along with the cob and husk. You're right....the second generation processes will open up the options for feedstock. Very promising. Thanks Billy!

(hi Monpirri...you're welcome!)

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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Ctg Bound says on Jul 8, 2008, 07:39:

billyb,

From corn a approx a third is used for ethanol, a third for high protein animal feed and a third is waste from what I have read.

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Jul 8, 2008, 07:51:

DocWilliam - Once a kernel of corn enters the ethanol making process, none of the by- or co-products are used for human consumption that I'm aware of. Currently, the approximately 12 billion bushel per year corn crop goes to these major uses:

- ethanol production (there are some feed by-products)
- sugar refineries (corn syrup, HFCS, some other sugars and feed by-products)
- exports
- feed use (animals)
- food use (humans)

I don't know the percentages off the top of my head but you can find it all easy enough at usda.gov

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Ctg Bound says on Jul 8, 2008, 08:11:

docwilliam,

None of the corn that is used for ethanol is used for human consumption.

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houstongal says on Jul 8, 2008, 08:16:

Thanks Tinto. You still know your Ag biz I see! ;-)

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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Ctg Bound says on Jul 8, 2008, 08:19:

docwilliam,

Using some corn or whatever for ethanol is not the MAIN reason why food prices are going, there are many others, some groups are looking for an easy target so they have picked on ethanol from corn, sugar cane whatever.

In most developing Countries 40-60% of food grown is never used, and just thrown away, the average number is 40% overall.

Its estimate that approx half the present land available in the world for farming is not used or very badly used.

Central stockplies of food around the world have been run down since the 80s, to save money.

Farming yield increases have dropped back over the last decade or two, because food has been to cheap, there hasn't been the research done to increase yield etc.

The list goes on if you do some research, you wil find other reasons easy enough.

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houstongal says on Jul 8, 2008, 08:25:

CtgBound - I think the research dollars have been spent in geneticaly modified seeds to increase yield and make the plant resistant to heribicides rather than in farming techniques.

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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billyb says on Jul 8, 2008, 08:46:

"Its estimate that approx half the present land available in the world for farming is not used or very badly used."

I agree. I know this is true of Colombia.

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houstongal says on Jul 8, 2008, 08:57:

Guys...I just wanted to say thanks for a great discussion. Clearly we have a number of people with different expertise and knowledge to share on a pretty hot topic nowadays. :-)

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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Ctg Bound says on Jul 20, 2008, 15:05:

Municipal waste to produce ethanol by 2011

The world’s first commercially produced ethanol from municipal waste will be on sale by early 2011, according to Ineos, the privately-held chemicals group backing the technology.

Ethanol production from waste can avoid problems associated with today’s biofuels, such as competition for food crops and agricultural land. But the quantity of waste available is likely to mean that only a limited proportion of fuel demand can be met by this method.

Cities are likely to be the first partners to sign up, although industries that produce high volumes of organic waste are interested.

Ineos has been working with Bioengineering Resources Inc, a biotech company based in Fayetteville, Arkansas, which has been developing the process.

BRI has been running a very small demonstration plant, capable of producing about 150,000 litres of ethanol a year in Fayetteville. Ineos believes the process is ready to be scaled up to plants producing about 100,000-150,000 tonnes per year. A tonne of ethanol is roughly 1,250 litres.

The process works by taking organic waste, converting it into a gas and feeding the gases to bacteria that convert them to ethanol.

Several companies are pursuing similar technologies. General Motors is backing Coskata, an Illinois-based company seeking to produce ethanol from organic wastes.

But Ineos expects that its plants will be the first able to use municipal waste as a feedstock when they come on stream, it hopes, in late 2010 or early 2011.

The costs of the process “stack up very well, and are cost competitive against any other approach to producing ethanol,� Mr Williams said. Two studies have suggested it saves 90 per cent of the greenhouse gas emissions produced by conventional petrol.

The logistics of securing waste to produce large volumes of fuel are challenging. It takes one dry tonne of organic waste to produce 400 litres of ethanol, Ineos says.

The European Union creates about 65m tonnes of organic municipal waste a year; enough to produce about 12m tonnes of ethanol.

The EU’s target is to get to 10 per cent of its road fuel coming from biofuels by 2020. The market for petrol, which can be substituted by ethanol, is about 100m tonnes a year, suggesting a demand for ethanol of 10m tonnes per year, up from the 3m tonnes supplied today.

That implies that, relying on the Ineos process alone, more than half of all the EU’s organic municipal waste would have to be used for fuel to meet the target.

LINK: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9667a580-568d-11dd-8686-000077b07658.html

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Ctg Bound says on Jul 23, 2008, 09:55:

billy b,

Here is a link the some new ethanol plants planned in Brazil:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2f6fd598-5811-11dd-b02f-000077b07658.html

The last paragrath says:

"The plant will include a facility to convert into energy the waste material produced after sugar cane is crushed, helping to increase overall efficiency."

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billyb says on Jul 23, 2008, 18:42:

thanks ctg.

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