Colombia's Old Spain Caste System

dwmte7 says on Jul 17, 2008, 05:38:

the best synopsis i've read yet.

dwmte

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Jul 17, 2008, 05:39:

LOL Morphus not bad jajajaj


3,2 ,1 and.........

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El Vato Loco says on Jul 17, 2008, 05:47:

Very similar to Mexico -- only not too many Afro-Mexicanos, but there are some areas with "mulatos" as they're referred to. Memin el Penguin is a very old but still popular cartoon character who is very African featured and is depicted as a child who's always getting into trouble and sometimes it can be taken very off-color (sexual jokes / social commentary / racial jokes).

The whiter you are the higher up in social class you tend to be and are treated. Just like in the U.S.

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morphus says on Jul 17, 2008, 05:59:

Yup, the same thing in Mexico, Peru and other parts of LA. I know a lot of Mestizos in the US that vow never to return to their countries of origin. They have a lot of money and can live rich but don't want to face discrimination back in their countries. At least Cuba did a good job in abolishing the old Spain caste system. Now everybody is poor and they get along great. I would like to see that in Colombia :)

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elmodefoque says on Jul 17, 2008, 06:13:

i don';t know but this fokin indio (ME) looks down on spaniards
why???
they fokin STINK!!

any colombianita willing to date me, IS UP TO NO GOOD

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ferran says on Jul 17, 2008, 06:14:

I have tried before explaining this to people, A country basically is about families, some are conected by blood and most by secret lodges and in the case of Colombia and most of latin America to Spain. Spain (families, lodges) Still holds PLENTY of wealth in Colombia, Banks, Media companies real state and most likely goverment bonds. As long as these systems are alive, the country will allways be in conflict, as murphus puts it, White Colombian Spaniards will allways rule, the rest are subjugated to the will and rules of this people or families and by the way they control both sides. good point of observation murphus.

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elmodefoque says on Jul 17, 2008, 06:14:

i'm not gonna front, we stink too but they stink even more

any colombianita willing to date me, IS UP TO NO GOOD

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elmodefoque says on Jul 17, 2008, 06:18:

and yes if i had stayed in colombia, damn right i'll be the first one on line to join FARC
FOK YOU, i aint about to eat chit the rest of my life while the wealthy have a good fokin time
hell fokin nooooo
I'll make sure they fear every turn they make while traveling in their nice cars from city to city

thank you!

anyways, no need to fear me, now i is a NYC injun with more money than those peso rich colombian modefoques

any colombianita willing to date me, IS UP TO NO GOOD

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billyb says on Jul 17, 2008, 06:22:

Funny you mention that elmo, I just finished a book about the founding of Pereira/Cartago by the conquistadors and it is told from the indian point of view (talk about getting foked over) and one thing it pointed out over and over was how the indians could smell the spaniards from a mile away. Something to do with the difference in diets.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Jul 17, 2008, 06:23:

Here is he :))) jejejej :)))

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elmodefoque says on Jul 17, 2008, 06:27:

billy, DIET MY ASSSS JIJIJIJ
they just don't like to fokin shower, is a euro thing
the reason why many left europe to the new world, they could no longer take the stench

any colombianita willing to date me, IS UP TO NO GOOD

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billyb says on Jul 17, 2008, 06:30:

"they just don't like to fokin shower, is a euro thing "

jaja, maybe that too

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elmodefoque says on Jul 17, 2008, 06:30:

the reason why our lands were invaded

any colombianita willing to date me, IS UP TO NO GOOD

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billyb says on Jul 17, 2008, 06:33:

What's that video of? Are they picking up gringos in parque lleras on sunday morning?

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elmodefoque says on Jul 17, 2008, 06:34:

jajajajajajaja yeahhh

any colombianita willing to date me, IS UP TO NO GOOD

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ferran says on Jul 17, 2008, 06:35:

Monty Python Rules!!

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Jul 17, 2008, 06:36:

The original Colombian class system in the time of the conquistadores was
Spanish
Criollo ( born in Colombia but Spanish Parents)
Mestizos
Indios
Mulatos
Negros

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Cerealkiller says on Jul 17, 2008, 06:39:

you forgot Zambos

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Jul 17, 2008, 06:40:

oh yes thanks Zambos are after Mulatos

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Jul 17, 2008, 06:43:

Mulatos: ( were the mix of a white and black person)
Zambo: i think it was a mix of an Indian with a black

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elmodefoque says on Jul 17, 2008, 06:56:

zambo????

any colombianita willing to date me, IS UP TO NO GOOD

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morphus says on Jul 17, 2008, 06:58:

Oh yeah, Zambos :)

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elmodefoque says on Jul 17, 2008, 07:01:

yeap, my boy chavez is a zambo and a half.
no wonder he hates white people, he represents the two most oppressed modefoques in south america injun and black
i always liked this guy

any colombianita willing to date me, IS UP TO NO GOOD

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elmodefoque says on Jul 17, 2008, 07:04:

with my evil mind and his money, i think we could take over south america

any colombianita willing to date me, IS UP TO NO GOOD

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morphus says on Jul 17, 2008, 07:13:

LOL...And Fidel's brain. Why does Fidel hate rich white people? He was one of them.

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dwmte7 says on Jul 17, 2008, 07:14:

sometimes, elmo, you bust my gut...zambo and a half.......that and monte python too much

thanks

dwmte

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ferran says on Jul 17, 2008, 07:21:

Fidel does not hate rich White people, his father was a spanish landowner and his mother a cuban criollo, Fidel is a FRAUD, his a Jesuit and besides hes Dead! really really dead!
Most important lets keep and eye on Uribe, hes the mole.......

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morphus says on Jul 17, 2008, 07:34:

Fidel dead? He was just on Cuban TV a few weeks ago. Still plotting and scheming.

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Waterdawg says on Jul 17, 2008, 07:35:

The original Colombian class system in the time of the conquistadores was
Spanish
Criollo ( born in Colombia but Spanish Parents)
Mestizos
Indios
Mulatos
Negros
...................................................................

Well living here in Bigota I can see things haven't changed since the old days !

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ferran says on Jul 17, 2008, 08:14:

Morphus did you ever see the movie "Wag the dog"? in todays technology and in the inventive minds of those who confused the masses, everything is possible, even to confused the allready confused farc by a supposed third world military operation, Wellcome to Hollywood...

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CatGirl says on Jul 17, 2008, 08:18:

Morphus, very well put.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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britabroad says on Jul 17, 2008, 08:33:

Yes, it's nice to live in a society where, at last, one is considered top of the pile.
Brits certainly aren't top of the pile in Britain anymore!

Seriously though, do those of you with more experience of these things think that the Colombian class system is based purely on race, or on wealth, or both?
I know it follows that Negros, Mulatos, Zambos and Indios are usually impoverished whereas the White Europeans and Criollos are often wealthy, but there are exceptions. I know some pretty hard up 'Whites' and some pretty well-off 'Non-Whites' here too.
Or is it purely due to the old Spanish colonial mentality?
The reason I ask is that (whilst the class system is obvious and ingrained) I never hear colour being mentioned at all here. Is it just a case of rich and poor, or are the poor kept that way because they're largely coloured?

Leave the big stick at home...carry a cannon!

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Cerealkiller says on Jul 17, 2008, 08:54:

Brit I think the class system used to be based on race almost exclusively. But throughout history people in disadvantaged positions have had ways to climb up. Initially, it was the military. Criollos and mestizos were allowed to climb up the social ladder with the prestige of a military promotion and I believe that is still the case to some degrees...I mean if you look at Colombia's generals, most are people from rather modest backgrounds who are now making 12 million per month...but then again life in the military is a bitch and not everyone is cut out for that.
Then you had the people involved in contrabando who were usually people from humble origins with a shrewd sense for business and started making tons of money in black markets, then you had bonanzas marimberas and now well, now you have cocaine empires.
Also, the mix in Colombia is so overwhelming (and wonderful) that its hard to tell who is white and who isnt. You say you've met 'whites' who are not doing so well, but if you look and their parents, sibblings you will find out they are not 'white' so it can get pretty confusing.
I do believe this also makes it all the more difficult to make this kind of generalizations. "All-white" families in Colombia are extremely rare, but 'white' people are very common...its all part of what makes colombia so special. You won't find that in Argentina or Peru...not on this scale anyway.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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viajero123 says on Jul 17, 2008, 09:25:

I think the "caste system" started as racial discrimination with the Spaniards so the darker the poorer the people were. This is still ingrained in Colombian culture but now as a discrimination between social classes rather than a racial thing. And despite the fact that a lot of people have gone up and down the social ladder, it seems that more or less in average poorer people are darker. I think the racial mix fades this further more. I agree the mixture is unique to Colombia, even in Latin America. How about the caste system in other Latin American countries?

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MaFe says on Jul 17, 2008, 10:13:

Mestizos - They suck up to the pure Spain Colombians and are always promised a brighter future. Will leave Colombia at the drop of a hat though.

or marry the foreigner who will take them out...


I find this caste system to be true in every Latino country....

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

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minina says on Jul 17, 2008, 10:31:

Cerealkiller:

"Brit I think the class system used to be based on race almost exclusively. But throughout history people in disadvantaged positions have had ways to climb up. Initially, it was the military. Criollos and mestizos were allowed to climb up the social ladder with the prestige of a military promotion and I believe that is still the case to some degrees...I mean if you look at Colombia's generals, most are people from rather modest backgrounds who are now making 12 million per month...but then again life in the military is a bitch and not everyone is cut out for that.
Then you had the people involved in contrabando who were usually people from humble origins with a shrewd sense for business and started making tons of money in black markets, then you had bonanzas marimberas and now well, now you have cocaine empires.
Also, the mix in Colombia is so overwhelming (and wonderful) that its hard to tell who is white and who isnt. You say you've met 'whites' who are not doing so well, but if you look and their parents, sibblings you will find out they are not 'white' so it can get pretty confusing.
I do believe this also makes it all the more difficult to make this kind of generalizations. "All-white" families in Colombia are extremely rare, but 'white' people are very common...its all part of what makes colombia so special. You won't find that in Argentina or Peru...not on this scale anyway."

I couldn't agree with you more girl.

You are pretty much defining my family there ( well my mom's family cuz, is just so big, while my dad's is oddly small). My grandma whas white of spaniard descent, but poor , unlike morphus says that white spaniards rule, I don't think so, at least not in Colombia, my grandma's family is proof o that. My grandpa is a zambo, mix of black and indian, but his features are mostly black. As a reasult of that we had very white people in my family, trigueños, morenos (like myself), amerindians (indigenous features), and blacks. I loved it, I feel very proud of that the mixes of race in my family is very unique and special, I think it's what defines Colombia, the variety of races.
I want to make clear thought that no one is looked down on my family based on their skin color. And I love that they call me negrita, because of my tanned skin color and I feel very proud of the great mix of races that I have in me. I will post pics of my family soon so you all can see what I am talking about.

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gimmedub says on Jul 17, 2008, 10:33:

yeah this caste system is sooo ingrained in the society it's unbelievable... but I'm happy that I'm considered lower class in Colombia... the robbers are focused on the white folk :)

sometimes it gets to me though - guess it's my somewhat americanized beliefs where the colour of your money matters more than the colour of your skin.

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Lcacique says on Jul 17, 2008, 10:44:

Nice; however a bit simplistic if we are talking about the old school caste system.

Castas in Spanish Genealogical Records
Classification Racial Composition

Albarazado: Cambujo and Mulato
Albino: Spanish and Morisco
Allí te estás: Chamizo and Mestizo
Barcino: Albarazado and Mulato
Barnocino: Albarazado and Mestizo
Calpamulato: Zambaigo and Lobo
Cambujo: Indian (¾) and Negro (¼)
Cambur: Negro (½), Spanish (¼), and Indian (¼)
Castizo: In Puerto Rico: Spanish and Mestizo. In Guatemala: Spanish and Indian (1/128)
Chamizo: Coyote and Indian
Chino: In Peru: Mulato and Indian
Cholo: In Peru: Mestizo and Indian
Cimarrón: In Mexico and Guatemala: Negro (½), Spanish (¼), and Indian (¼)
Coyote: Spanish (½), Indian (3/8), and Negro (1/8)
Cuarteado: Spanish (½), Indian (¼), and Negro (¼)
Cuarterón: Spanish (¾) and Negro (¼)
Cuarterón de Chino: In Peru: Spanish and Chino
Cuarterón de Mestize: In Peru: Spanish and Mestizo
Cuarterón de Mulato: In Peru: Spanish and Mulato
Cuatrero: Indian (¾) and Spanish (¼)
Español: Spanish
Español Criollo: Colonial-born Spaniard
Indio: Indian
Jíbaro, Jabaro: Lobo and Salta atrás
Ladino: Spanish (¾) and Indian (¼)
Lobo: Indian (¾) and Negro (¼)
Mestizo: Spanish (½) and Indian (½)
Moreno: Spanish (½), Indian (¼), and Negro (¼)
Morisco: Spanish and Mulato. In Spain: a baptized Moor
Mulato: Spanish (½) and Negro (½). In Chile and Colombia: can also be Indian and Negro
Negro: African Black
Negro fino: Negro (¾) and Spanish (¼)
No te entiende: Tente en el aire and Mulato
No me toques: Mixture of Spanish, Indian, and Negro
Ochavado: Spanish (7/8) and Negro (1/8)
Pardo: Indian (½), Spanish (¼), and Negro (¼)
Prieto: Negro (7/8) and Spanish (1/8)
Quartarón: See Cuarterón
Quinterón: In Peru: Spanish and Cuarterón
Requinterón: In Peru: Spanish and Quinterón
Salta atrás: Spanish and Albino
Tente en el aire: Calpamulato and Cambujo
Torna atrás: No te entiende and Indian
Tresalvo: Spanish (¾) and Negro (¼)
Zambaigo: Spanish and Chino
Zambo: In Peru: Negro and Mulato. In Venezuela: Indian (½) and Negro (½)
Zambo de Indio: In Peru: Negro (½) and Indian (½)

This list is not complete either, but it is a little bit closer than peninsulares, criollos, mestizos, mulattos, indios, africanos.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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minina says on Jul 17, 2008, 10:55:

Jibaro in Puerto Rico means something like "peasant" or montañero in Colombia. I didn't know it was also used to describe a racial group. It's good learn new things everyday.

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Cerealkiller says on Jul 17, 2008, 11:00:

haha jibaro today is a cheap ass drug supplier.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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miamimike says on Jul 17, 2008, 11:34:

Cubans call a Jibaro "Guajiro". Sometimes called a Mambisa if they are right winger Guajiros. LOL In PR on the Autopista Sur between Suan Juan and Ponce, there is a Huge Monument to the Jibaros in the form of a Gigantic Jibaro. They respect and pay homage to the country folks.

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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MaFe says on Jul 17, 2008, 12:27:

Minima, yes in Puerto Rico Jibaro means Montanero...nothing more than that...

minina says on Jul 17 (today): flag

Cerealkiller:
You are pretty much defining my family there ( well my mom's family cuz, is just so big, while my dad's is oddly small). My grandma whas white of spaniard descent, but poor , unlike morphus says that white spaniards rule, I don't think so, at least not in Colombia, my grandma's family is proof o that. My grandpa is a zambo, mix of black and indian, but his features are mostly black. As a reasult of that we had very white people in my family, trigueños, morenos (like myself), amerindians (indigenous features), and blacks. I loved it, I feel very proud of that the mixes of race in my family is very unique and special, I think it's what defines Colombia, the variety of races.
I want to make clear thought that no one is looked down on my family based on their skin color. And I love that they call me negrita, because of my tanned skin color and I feel very proud of the great mix of races that I have in me. I will post pics of my family soon so you all can see what I am talking about.

I really like the pride that you have in your ancestry! I always tell people that is what makes Colombians and the rest of Latinos so special, we are all mixed with indian, black, white, etc.

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

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Lcacique says on Jul 17, 2008, 13:06:

La raza cósmica is indeed a beautiful thing, MaFe. It is amazing that something as ugly as the colonial period was capable of producing something so beautiful. It is regretful the way in which it happened, the struggles that many people faced as a result; however, there is no denying (unless you are extremely ignorant) that the mixing of races was/is a wonderful thing. And I agree, be VERY proud of it.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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ZeDoCaixao says on Jul 17, 2008, 13:53:

The problem with all this is that a "mestizo" race, or racial continuum, is a flawed concept at root. People have for long assumed that because a Colombian, or any not obviously pure native Latin American, has bronze skin and black hair, they are "mestizo", a creature between European and Indian. This is nonsense, as anyone familiar with racial variation in Spain itself would know. The reason your paisas are lighter and so on is simply that they're mostly Vasco and Galician; literally the same blood flows through much of Costa Rica, which is why THEY are generally more european-looking. Most of the time, when people talk about or refer to "mestizos", unless there is some physical feature with correspondence in a non-European race, the subject is actually just a southern Spanish type. The fact is that the conquistadors and the colonists who followed in their wake weren't the bourgeoisie or nobility, but the proles, and in a mixed country like Spain (which was created by a tension between southern/moorish-arab and northern/roman-germanic elements) that means people with dark skin, dark hair, weird shapes and all that. Point is, mestizaje isn't as universal in the lower echelons of society as people think. These weird types which we account for by the word "mestizo" can be traced right back to the Iberian peninsula itself. Probably the criollos themselves invented this concept to distance themselves from the descendants of poor families. In our time the concept has gained political weight from the left as a blanket cultural identity to cover any shade or shape of "Hispanic". And this is as nonsensical (and convenient) as calling everyone born in the US an "American" despite all possible racial differences and crossings. "Mestizo" identity defines itself in large part against North American identity, anyhow. "Todos somos latinos" in the mouths of both northern-Italian Argentines and blacks in Choco is the politically correct formula for abrogation of natural identity in favor of the state's enfranchisement of all as "citizens" and consumers, subservient to the metanarrative of total world equality designed by the American academic left. For both to call themselves "latino" because the language they share stems from a European tongue which itself was a descendant of another called "Latin", is an admission that thinking about who and what they really are is not part of the worldview in which they find themselves; that they do not care about, and have no conception of, who they are in substance, and surrender to the all-powerful line that one is what one speaks, and nothing more -- though the black and Indian are, of course, granted identity rights of their own (by societies created for, and dependent upon, whites, caucasians or criollos) to accomodate the white's impulse of self-mortification for alleged historical injustice, thereby surviving both materially and psychologically on the white's masochistically inverted sense of distance from the non-white.

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Lcacique says on Jul 17, 2008, 14:46:

ZeDoCaixao: "These weird types which we account for by the word "mestizo" can be traced right back to the Iberian peninsula itself."

"Weird types"? Poor choice of words, in my opinion.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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ferran says on Jul 17, 2008, 14:51:

ZeDoCaixo; you'r coment makes all the sense, Iam from Spain and theres the same racial barriers there as in any other place on this planet, not to mention India, its worse there then in any other place in the world, as Iam informed the first wave of conquistadors were associated with the european monarchies, they founded cities and set all the the institutions that exist to present day, later the influx of imigrants that came from the Iberian peninsula were from the racial mix that existed in Spain, they were of lower casts that was needed to work and developed these new lands. To the valle of aburra first came the the institutions from Extrema dura from an area that was called Metallion, thats were the name Medellin comes from. later came the Andaluces which are from an arab-moorish decent, and the last wave were the Basque, thats why you find so many basque last names in Antioquia, the name Aburra comes from the Euskara language, they even created a cacique named "El cacique de Aburra" of course he was an agent of the founders, and to get back to the title of the post, yes the country is still ruled by those first invaders that came from Aristocracies and monarchies, these groups or families control the wealth and goverments, they dictate the political spectrum and all aspects of living standards to the rest of the population, presidents are just pawns in the game as well all representitives of the goverment, the miltary exist for the sole purpose of protecting they're interest and power nothing else.

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ZeDoCaixao says on Jul 17, 2008, 17:16:

ferran -

Agreed. Wealth follows the races which create it, bottom line. This is why southern Brasil is the wealthiest part of that country ..... it is the "whitest", and from Sao Paulo itself -- with its Italians, Jews, rich old Portuguese and other Europeans -- stems the ideological enfranchisement of the non-white as more "Brazilian", more inherently valuable than the white in what is universally accepted as Brazilian identity. The failed bourgeois-republican revolutions of 1848 brought thousands of northern Italians, high Germans, Swiss and Austrians to the River Plate -- whereas, in exact contrast, poor low Germans (from northern Germany) and southern Italians went to America without any great social upheaval to spur them on. The rich criollo / white families, owing to the equalizing ("Todos somos latinos!") metanarrative of liberal democratic capitalism can rest easy with an immense store of brown poor folk, be they mestizo, mulatto or simply the descendants of the poor old Iberian peasantry, to hold their shotguns and murder their opponents. And this of course is why Colombians hate .... Hugo Chavez.

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MaFe says on Jul 17, 2008, 19:10:

Lcacique says on Jul 17 (today): flag

ZeDoCaixao: "These weird types which we account for by the word "mestizo" can be traced right back to the Iberian peninsula itself."

"Weird types"? Poor choice of words, in my opinion.

I agree, maybe exotic is a better choice of words?

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

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adrimm says on Jul 17, 2008, 19:34:

It's old. These days someone with access to high education (via scholarship or ability to pay) can do very well for themselves despite the colour of their skin...

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Simon says on Jul 17, 2008, 21:21:

Or we could just have wiped out the natives completely, like some other countries, and that's why they don't have any mestizos or zambos!

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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kalder says on Jul 18, 2008, 00:07:

I've enjoyed reading ZeDo's comments. It's nice to see some hard, academic history, rather than the usual sentimental gloop that gets a pavlovian airing whenever anything vaguely controversial is on the agenda.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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Alma del Norte says on Jul 18, 2008, 00:35:

Kalder, I agree. I wish I was as well read. I enjoyed ferran's comments also, although I'm in the dark about the conspiracist elements of the latter's opinion.

La vida es una rutina

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morphus says on Jul 18, 2008, 06:15:

"Or we could just have wiped out the natives completely, like some other countries, and that's why they don't have any mestizos or zambos!"


Jimi Hendrix and Tina Turner: American Zambos

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kalder says on Jul 18, 2008, 06:34:

Alma- Have you relocated to Bogota?

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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Alma del Norte says on Jul 18, 2008, 10:41:

Kalder, I have indeed, although I spend about 50% of my time gadding about the country on my motorbike. Will be returning all too soon for a couple of months work, and reacquainting myself with the joys of Lower Clapton!

La vida es una rutina

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