Colombia's 'image problem'

adrimm says on Jun 21, 2005, 23:39:

That's just it People don't realise that a land with the problems Colombia has, can be beautiful and wonderful. Even if Colombia has a far larger share of nasty crap, there is still the ying and yang, but the image is only of one.

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Don Rojo says on Jun 22, 2005, 02:13:

There are always two sides As a gringo, I want to keep Colombia a secret. The last thing I want is Western fast-food chains, banks, supermarkets, hardware stores and such - but most of all (call me a hypocrite if you must), I don't want Colombia invaded by tourists. It's such a beautiful country, with such wonderful people, culture, the pace of life - and tourism would damage the economy, the environment and the culture irreperably..

However, do not forget the Colombian point of view. I know that my friends get really depressed & annoyed that everyone thinks they're terrorists and drug dealers, that they can't easily get visas to travel, and that abject poverty, corruption and deadly violence are (to some extent) ignored by Colombia's government and the rest of the world. Like any country, Colombia has a few serious problems that need solving. We can only hope they don't lose what's so amazing about Colombia (and Colombianos) in the process.

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fosth says on Jun 22, 2005, 02:34:

Brilliant Nice post Don Rojo, exactly how felt after my first trip there. I'd hate it if Colombia became like Peru. Over exploited and full of Package travellers. Peru is a beautiful country but is spoiled by everyone fighting over your dollars!!
However i do want Colombia to become safer and for the ongoing conflict to end to improve the lives of the people who live there.
Maybe if cocaine was legal in US and europe the problems would clear up!!

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 22, 2005, 02:37:

Colombia's image is not custom-made for people who want a different lifestyle for themselves. It's up to the people in Colombia how they want they country portrayed in the media and I can assure you that most Colombians don't like the reputation of being a rogue nation where everything goes.

Drugs, prostitution, corruption, violence and criminality are not the what makes Colombia great for its people. They have a legitimite struggle going on to make things better, better for their own people, not for thrill-seekers or adventurers from the wealthier countries in the world.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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kernow62 says on Jun 22, 2005, 04:07:

I couldn't have said it better myself Desi.

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Rubiazo says on Jun 22, 2005, 05:52:

It's not a 'thrill seeker' thing Using what happened here in NYC as an example. Crime here may be down more than 75% from 10 years ago, but IMO the city is worse off than ever and completely unlivable. Because they lost everything that made the city great in the process.
NYC used to be this island of tolerance and freedom in a country otherwise full of bigotry and religious fundamentalism. And yes, it used to be a much more dangerous place. But there was more than enough here to make up for the danger. I'd give ANYTHING to roll back the clock here to the 1980s or before, despite the problems that would come back.
Desi, you have to understand that the 'Drugs, prostitution, corruption, violence and criminality' FUELS the music business. Without criminals, we have no patrons. Government can't do it; government has NO taste in music. The working class can't do it because they don't have the money, and most of the landed gentry have the same problem as the gov't.
All my life in Canada and the US I have worked for criminals in the music business. We all have; it's a bit dissimulated but you're getting paid dirty money and you're a fool if you don't know it. Now that they've put all the people who would come out to the clubs in jail here there is nobody left to support the music. The whole music scene, especially the Spanish one, literally went POOF!
I see places like Colombia, Brazil, Venezuela, as the last hope on Earth for anybody who wants to dedicate their lives to something creative, and I hope they don't ever do anything to lose that, no matter what the benefits may be.
And yes, maybe if cocaine were legal the problems would clear up AND we would have the best of both worlds.

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Rubiazo says on Jun 22, 2005, 05:58:

One more thing I read sometimes here AND on the Spanish forum people talking about 'tercermundialismo' and how Colombians are 'atrasado' in their thinking. I think the real 'atrasados' in the world right now are right here in the USA. We are literally trying to turn the clock right back to the middle ages here. I really don't know what the people's will is. Maybe people here have gotten so pathetic they are willing to sell their freedom off for a Happy Meal. Or maybe they're just all being duped. But we're headed for the WORST of times up here if things don't change.

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kernow62 says on Jun 22, 2005, 06:25:

Rubiazo I don't know if I agree totally, there is IMHO some great music still being made in places such as the UK, Spain, Germany etc that are all highly regulated societies. If you are in agreement in principal that some of the music from these place I have mentioned is progressive and creative how would you explain it possible to come from a quite regulated society?

Personally I think the biggest hinderance to musical creativety is not government, rather it is the radio stations of the mainstream that play the same crap. Most of the public unless they are willing to seek out alternatives will be bombarded with mostly inane musical crapola to coin the technical term.

The only time I think government really hinders the creativeness of musicians is censorship and cracking down on the free dispersal of media. Which I am totally against.

Although I do see creativity being squashed by all having to conform to a set of standards, I think mainstream media is as guilty as government. What sells is what we are forced to listen too, money is the root of all evil...

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Colombiche says on Jun 22, 2005, 06:38:

I was going to say something.... But Desideria said it so well, that I truly can't see myself saying it any better.

Colombia is a country, there is more at steak here than just being a cool country to visit, an oddity, an attraction. We are talking human beings, we are talking lives here. I would like nothing better than to see my beautiful Colombia become a more peaceful, tranquil, affluent nation, so that we Colombianos don't have to keep flocking out of the country and begging somebody to take us into their home at any cost. Colombians in and out of the country are victims of this violent conflict.

What amazes me is how Colombia, in spite of all this turmoil has managed to remain one of the most stable latin American economies, still have one of the lowest birth rates and the highest literacy rates, keep a fairly manageable external debt and a somewhat functional infrastructure. I think that shows a lot of resilience. Some Latin countries don't have half the problems that colombia has and they are far more destitute and disorganized.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Rubiazo says on Jun 22, 2005, 06:58:

I don't think it's realistic In any case for Colombia to EVER become a tranquil country. I mean, look at its history. Nothing but violencia after violencia. That's part of why they can keep the power on and keep the economy chugging despite all the blood, they're USED to it.

I truly believe that violence and freedom go hand and hand anyways. I don't think you can have one without the other. I think that's something people up here are really starting to forget.

Kernow, you'll have to send me some examples of good music coming out of the UK and germany, especially any time in the past 20 years, and ESPECIALLY from germany. I havent heard anything interesting from them since Tangerine Dream, and they virtually stood alone in terms of interesting German music even at the time IMO.

Spain is a different story, because Spain still has Andalucia, which is very much still fucked up and full of drugs and crime. That just proves my point further; almost ALL the good Spanish music comes from there.

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rona says on Jun 22, 2005, 07:13:

you don't have to deal with the daily scrutiny Rubiazo, with all due respect - I don't think that ANY Colombian or Colombian-American likes being tagged "Drug-Lord" or "Guerrilla" by mainstream culture, so don't tell me about my image . . . I think Colombians are smart enough to see things for what they are - a Happy Meal is not going to replace abuela's empanadas . . .

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rona says on Jun 22, 2005, 07:21:

nobody is USED to violence - I think that's a ridiculous statement - what you have is people who feel helpless and do the best they can, but I doubt that anybody anywhere is used to violence . . . my parents tell me of a time before the assasination of Jorge Eliecer Gaitan when Colombia was tranquil and that its unfortunate that generations have grown up in a hostile environment . . . its like saying that kids who grew up in the projects will never progress because they're used to being poor - nobody wants to be poor and nobody wants to be in a hostile environment

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 22, 2005, 07:25:

Despite of having a tradition of violence I dont think Colombia is "USED" to it, simply because the perpetrators of violence and corruption are, sadly, a very powerful minority. Thats perhaps why there hasnt been a civil war in almost 100 years.
I am sure most people here will agree on the fact of Colombians being friendly and more open to new things than other cultures, that most people isnt used to rampant crime and Im pretty sure everyone would be willing to make sacrifices for the sake of peace. However, thats not in the best interest of those who run the country.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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Caballista says on Jun 22, 2005, 08:19:

Imágen Como Colombiana, respeto a mi vecino, y donde vaya trato de dar lo mejor de mi sin perder mi espiritu alegre y fiestero. Los gritos, los insultos y la violencia, no entran en mi trato para con los demas. Si alguien me ataca me defiendo, si alguien trata de ofenderme le respondo. Y como Colombiana, me siento embajadora (sin nombramiento oficial) de mi pais donde vaya. Asi que la imagen que otros hayan creado o sigan creando, es muy de ellos. Mi actitud ante el ataque de mala imagen, lo respondo con sonrisas, pues es imposible, borrar la impresión que se causa como pais, pero si es sencillo crear una imágen como individuo, y esa es el que ayuda a cambiar un poco la idea que se tiene a nivel mundial de Colombia. Es mi opinión y mi modo de ser.

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adrimm says on Jun 22, 2005, 08:31:

Contrast makes illusions Ceralkiller: Walking a line between forums here eh?

The good things about Colombian aren't neccessarily better these days, they only shine brighter in contrast to the dark depths of their troubles. Colombia has had it's decades of calm, and I hardly would consider it any less interesting of a place in those times as it is now.

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Albatross says on Jun 22, 2005, 08:35:

. I think they should just pave over the whole country and build a giant Wal-Mart.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Albatross says on Jun 22, 2005, 08:44:

Oh, and Rube... Great contemporary German music ?... RAMMSTEIN.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 22, 2005, 09:02:

Adrimm, How am I walking a line between forums?
I havent had the chance of experiencing the changes in Colombia over the decades myself as Im only 2 decades old. But I speak only from what Ive seen and the little history I know. Perhaps you experience more of an adrenaline rush in times of chronic conflict but one thing is visiting and a completely different thing is living in constant fear as many colombians in rural areas do, all Im saying is one can never get used to that.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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jh816 says on Jun 22, 2005, 09:05:

everyone's got an opinion I've got to get in on this one. Just because a country has a history of violence and struggle does not mean the people are used to it or should be subjected to it. The people of Colombia deserve a higher standard of living. This does not mean the country has to be sold to McDonalds, or become Dirty America(pronounced Tijuana). There are many countries that enjoy a higher standard of living and have held on to their ethnic culture.

Rubiazo, if you want NYC to be like it was in the 80's you should have tried to live in Hell's Kitchen for part of your childhood. It wasn't fun. I've been back quite a few times since I moved out, and the city still has plenty of culture. It's great to talk about not wanting to give up "music, good food, music, romance, interesting conversations, music, sex, dancing" for the sake of freedom and security, but try not having ANY freedom or security and see how much music and food you would be willing to give up for a better life.

But that's just my naive opinion(emphasis on naive)
joe.

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 22, 2005, 09:13:

And when it comes to the Music... ...Rammstein is not even that good. Try Subway for Sally, Wizo and more mellow stuff like Wir Sind Helden. And the best Electronic music for instance is definitely German.
In regards to the UK there are plenty of great bands ie MUSE, Libertines, Keane, Razorlight, Ash, Franz Ferdinand...I think those are very good bands.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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Albatross says on Jun 22, 2005, 09:34:

Was sagst du ? "Rammstein is not even that good" ???... have you listened to "Bestrafe Mich" or "Spiel Mit Mir" (or "Tier" if you REALLY want to rock) from the CD "Sehnsucht" ?

I saw them in Berlin in the summer of 2000... the best metal show I’ve ever seen, better than Metallica or even Tool (even though I like Tool better musically).

...Of course this has absolutely nothing to do with Colombia.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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heybobozo says on Jun 22, 2005, 09:40:

Surf Magazine Check out page 74. Short uninformed opinions like this one can't help Colombia's image.

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MacGringo says on Jun 22, 2005, 10:03:

BRITISH IS BEST!!! If its rock , indie, or just guitar bands in general I would say its a well known fact that Britain is the home of good music.
I would agree on Cereal killers previous comments, these are all good bands.
A few more would be Radiohead, Coldplay, Spiritualized, Super Furry Animnals, The Charlatans, The Coral,Primal Scream, Oasis.

And remember, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Pink Floyd, The Who, The Kinks, The Small Faces and Led Zeppelin.....ALL BRITISH!!

Need I say more????

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miamimike says on Jun 22, 2005, 10:11:

I fail to understand how perpetual violence moves a society ahead. When we revolted way back when a few hundred years ago we moved towards a more peaceful society of laws and have prospered as evidenced by our world standing in the economy, medicine technological advances. I wonder if any of those Scientists who discovered Electricity, Polio Vaccine, computer technology would have been able to accomplish the same if they were in Today's Colombia worrying about their Labs being bombed, cars bombed, workers and scientists sequestered.I doubt it. This Violence and lack of Safty goes against the accepted teachings of reknown Human Scientist Abraham Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs--his history and Theory below. Safty and Security are his second level and lacking these, humans cannot fully move to the higher levels.

Biography

Abraham Harold Maslow was born April 1, 1908 in Brooklyn, New York. He was the first of seven children born to his parents, who themselves were uneducated Jewish immigrants from Russia. His parents, hoping for the best for their children in the new world, pushed him hard for academic success. Not surprisingly, he became very lonely as a boy, and found his refuge in books.

To satisfy his parents, he first studied law at the City College of New York (CCNY). After three semesters, he transferred to Cornell, and then back to CCNY. He married Bertha Goodman, his first cousin, against his parents wishes. Abe and Bertha went on to have two daughters.

He and Bertha moved to Wisconsin so that he could attend the University of Wisconsin. Here, he became interested in psychology, and his school work began to improve dramatically. He spent time there working with Harry Harlow, who is famous for his experiments with baby rhesus monkeys and attachment behavior.

He received his BA in 1930, his MA in 1931, and his PhD in 1934, all in psychology, all from the University of Wisconsin. A year after graduation, he returned to New York to work with E. L. Thorndike at Columbia, where Maslow became interested in research on human sexuality.

He began teaching full time at Brooklyn College. During this period of his life, he came into contact with the many European intellectuals that were immigrating to the US, and Brooklyn in particular, at that time -- people like Adler, Fromm, Horney, as well as several Gestalt and Freudian psychologists.

In 1951, Maslow served as the chair of the psychology department at Brandeis for 10 years, where he met Kurt Goldstein (who introduced him to the idea of self-actualization) and began his own theoretical work. It was also here that he began his crusade for a humanistic psychology -- something ultimately much more important to him than his own theorizing.

He spend his final years in semi-retirement in California, until, on June 8 1970, he died of a heart attack after years of ill health.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Theory

One of the many interesting things Maslow noticed while he worked with monkeys early in his career, was that some needs take precedence over others. For example, if you are hungry and thirsty, you will tend to try to take care of the thirst first. After all, you can do without food for weeks, but you can only do without water for a couple of days! Thirst is a “stronger” need than hunger. Likewise, if you are very very thirsty, but someone has put a choke hold on you and you can’t breath, which is more important? The need to breathe, of course. On the other hand, sex is less powerful than any of these. Let’s face it, you won’t die if you don’t get it!



Maslow took this idea and created his now famous hierarchy of needs. Beyond the details of air, water, food, and sex, he laid out five broader layers: the physiological needs, the needs for safety and security, the needs for love and belonging, the needs for esteem, and the need to actualize the self, in that order.

1. The physiological needs. These include the needs we have for oxygen, water, protein, salt, sugar, calcium, and other minerals and vitamins. They also include the need to maintain a pH balance (getting too acidic or base will kill you) and temperature (98.6 or near to it). Also, there’s the needs to be active, to rest, to sleep, to get rid of wastes (CO2, sweat, urine, and feces), to avoid pain, and to have sex. Quite a collection!

Maslow believed, and research supports him, that these are in fact individual needs, and that a lack of, say, vitamin C, will lead to a very specific hunger for things which have in the past provided that vitamin C -- e.g. orange juice. I guess the cravings that some pregnant women have, and the way in which babies eat the most foul tasting baby food, support the idea anecdotally.

2. The safety and security needs. When the physiological needs are largely taken care of, this second layer of needs comes into play. You will become increasingly interested in finding safe circumstances, stability, protection. You might develop a need for structure, for order, some limits.

Looking at it negatively, you become concerned, not with needs like hunger and thirst, but with your fears and anxieties. In the ordinary American adult, this set of needs manifest themselves in the form of our urges to have a home in a safe neighborhood, a little job security and a nest egg, a good retirement plan and a bit of insurance, and so on.

3. The love and belonging needs. When physiological needs and safety needs are, by and large, taken care of, a third layer starts to show up. You begin to feel the need for friends, a sweetheart, children, affectionate relationships in general, even a sense of community. Looked at negatively, you become increasing susceptible to loneliness and social anxieties.

In our day-to-day life, we exhibit these needs in our desires to marry, have a family, be a part of a community, a member of a church, a brother in the fraternity, a part of a gang or a bowling club. It is also a part of what we look for in a career.

4. The esteem needs. Next, we begin to look for a little self-esteem. Maslow noted two versions of esteem needs, a lower one and a higher one. The lower one is the need for the respect of others, the need for status, fame, glory, recognition, attention, reputation, appreciation, dignity, even dominance. The higher form involves the need for self-respect, including such feelings as confidence, competence, achievement, mastery, independence, and freedom. Note that this is the “higher” form because, unlike the respect of others, once you have self-respect, it’s a lot harder to lose!

The negative version of these needs is low self-esteem and inferiority complexes. Maslow felt that Adler was really onto something when he proposed that these were at the roots of many, if not most, of our psychological problems. In modern countries, most of us have what we need in regard to our physiological and safety needs. We, more often than not, have quite a bit of love and belonging, too. It’s a little respect that often seems so very hard to get!

All of the preceding four levels he calls deficit needs, or D-needs. If you don’t have enough of something -- i.e. you have a deficit -- you feel the need. But if you get all you need, you feel nothing at all! In other words, they cease to be motivating. As the old blues song goes, “you don’t miss your water till your well runs dry!”

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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Albatross says on Jun 22, 2005, 10:33:

Thanks Professor Mike... .... but you forgot to mention what Harlow's baby Rhesus monkeys names were.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 22, 2005, 10:59:

Albatross, I am sorry, I just have never liked Rammstein much, I like 3 of their songs though; Du Riechst so Gut, Ohne Dich and Amerika, but thats pretty much it.
MacGringo, Get In!!!! I love all those bands!!! You forgot to mention The Clash though :P

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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Rubiazo says on Jun 22, 2005, 11:03:

BLEAH I just had a super long post that timed me out AGAIN. Here goes again....

First off, that fucking idiot scientist forgot our need for artistic expression! Typical materialistic thinking!! He doesnt even have any of our REAL needs on there IMO.
How do you explain somebody willing to die for what they believe in, or for someone they love. I love how love and art (the two REALLY important things on Earth IMO) dont even come into the picture. I don't care about all that crap. It really comes down to love and art for me. Everything else can fuck off. If I die of thirst, so be it!
I would GLADLY take my freedom over air, food, water etc ANY DAY. I would cut of my own balls to prove it if I felt I had to.

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Rubiazo says on Jun 22, 2005, 11:16:

Desi I'm just gonna make shorter posts from now on. So much grief with this system. Once you're logged on you should stay on.

Desi, your own reasons for moving away from Colombia are your own. Nobody can knock what you did, you have every right to be an expat if you so choose. I'd be the last person to question that.

HOWEVER I just don't like your assumption that Colombians are kicking in the door to get out of their country. It is not only offensive to me but contrary to my own personal experience. I know plenty of Colombians in Colombia who have NO desire to emigrate. They are happy where they are and don't wanna give up what they have.

I also know lots of Colombians here in NYC who are in the process of or seriously thinking of repatriating, once again for many different reasons. For some people, the grass really isn't greener on the other side after all.

I knew LOTS of Colombians in Toronto when I lived there who wanted to repatriate, almost to the last person. I even warned a friend of mine's bf not to go there. He lasted a year and left, totally regretted it. He reconciled with my friend, they got married in Bogota but are now destined for LA, God knows why, but hey, that's their decision!

I myself am already an immigrant, having moved to NY from Canada almost 8 years ago. I liked it a lot when I got here, but things have changed drastically since then, and I don't know how much longer I can deal with living here. I never liked Canada, however, and wouldn't even consider going back. I feel nothing but shame and regret for having been born in that place.

Canada has as positive an image on the world stage as Colombia has a negative one, but I think both reuptations are just as false and undeserved. Canada has BIG problems nobody ever talks about because they are unwilling to notice the elephant in the room. For example, did you know the life expectancy of an 'indio' in Canada is only 39 years?? That's just over HALF the national average! Of course, being a 'blanquito' i had other reasons for leaving.

My novia is another example of someone who is doing just fine in Colombia and has no desire to leave. She has a 6 year old son who is in an excellent school down there and we could never duplicate the quality of his education anywhere in Canada or the States. She would be willing to relocate temporarily for my sake, but ultimately wants to live in Colombia no matter what. She certainly doesnt need my gringo ass to 'save her' from her country. In fact, I would be needing HER help to get my cedula when I move down there for real!

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miamimike says on Jun 22, 2005, 11:17:

Many would disagree with your View on Maslow but we are entitled to our own opinion-each of get one(1)-like a Vote.jaja. I don't think Maslow espoused a Complete lack of Violence, Wars ect. Just violence and insecurity day in day out! Sometimes to be right you have to do wrong.A just war is an example,when the Japanese bomed Pearl Harbor or when Osama Bin Laden retreated to Afghanistan after iniating 9/11.(note-did not say Iraq, thank you). Violence every day saps a country of its creative energy, its resources.Or History in the last few thousand years since the Roman Empire has been selling us a bill of goods.IMHO.

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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MacGringo says on Jun 22, 2005, 11:24:

Yeah Cerealkiller, I forgot about The Clash, The Jam, The Sex pistols, The Undertones. And the list goes on and on..........

The Stone Roses, Happy Mondays, Blur, The La's,New Order, Joy Division............................

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Rubiazo says on Jun 22, 2005, 11:27:

Next post :P I see things this way, every place on earth is messed up in one way or another. You just basically have to pick your poison and learn to live with it. I never felt like I fit in in Canada, so I left. I like the way life is in South America much more than up here. Nobody has to agree with it but ME!

I also have a hard time with a lot of the moralistic assumptions made on this board. Drugs aren't a 'bad thing'. Abuse of drugs can be. Recreational use of drugs doesnt HAVE to be abusive. We get a lot of reactionaries here tarring everybody with the same brush.

I also think people should have the right to sell their bodies if they so choose, and people should have the right to pay for sex if they so choose. It should be regulated in such a way as to promote public health instead of erode it, and in such a way that girls who are often vulnerable are protected, by zoning, registration, age verification, mandatory testing etc. I think countries that DONT have anything like this in place are barbaric and backwards.

In short, in some ways Canada has its shit together, in some ways it doesnt. In some ways it doesnt. Ditto for the US. Ditto for Colombia, Brazil, DR, everywhere I've ever been. I don't see the need to bash Colombia OR to sing its praises. It is what it is. If you wanna visit, then visit. If you wanna move there than move there.

To me, the things I value most seem to be the things people in Colombia value most as well. I don't see them as being over-paranoid or concerned about personal security to the detriment of everything else like I do people here. I hope they never get duped into that mentality and I hope they take their OWN direction with their country and tell Big Brother to mind its business. I strongly believe that most people really do value their freedom deep down, and I certainly hope that is the case in Colombia. I hope they never forget the value of 'abuelita's empanadas' en todos los sentidos fisicos y metafisicos tambien!

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Rubiazo says on Jun 22, 2005, 11:33:

jh816 Believe it or not, Hell's Kitchen is NOT the worst place in the universe. There are plenty of places MUCH worse than Hell's Kitchen on every level. I grew up in one of them. And I've seen much worse even than that.

I've been on the road with unknown rock bands and seen and experienced ALL kinds of fucked up shit. One time I saw a girl thrown from the balcony of a club to land on the granite floor. She must have broken half the bones in her body and was making sounds no human being should make.

But you know what, THAT IS WHAT LIFE IS. I really miss those days of being on the road despite all the hardships and dangers. I miss being able to play music all day and all night like that. And I CHALLENGE you to show me where all the great music in NYC is these days. You and I must have very different views on culture. Maybe you think the Olive Garden is great Italian food and BBQs serves great chicken too!

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Rubiazo says on Jun 22, 2005, 11:35:

Oh yes I KNEW somebody was gonna bring up Rammstein, but I thought they would do it jokingly.
However Wumpscut IS a half-decent German band. I can't think of any others right now though.
All that 60s and 70s shit that came out of London was amazing. But once again, it all came out of a neighborhood shunned by most respectable people because of its DRUGS CRIME PROSTITUTION etc.

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Rubiazo says on Jun 22, 2005, 11:41:

Miamimike: The Roman Empire was constantly at war. Usually on more than one front. The "Pax Romana" was a very relative term and referred to areas well inside the fronts.
I think the long and protracted war between the Spaniards and the Moors HELPED civilization progress faster than it would have. I don't think we could have had the Industrial Revolution without it actually, or without the whole New World thing. If you look at West Africa who were relatively at peace the whole time while the Europeans were tearing each others throats out, the Europeans were the ones making most (not all) of the scientific advances. The Africans did do better in areas like medicine, however.
Hell you could even look at it as, the Colombians really never stopped fighting since 1200 years ago!! :PPPPP

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 22, 2005, 11:42:

Macgringo Yes you forgot all those...Blur, Suede, Bluetones, Stereophonics Travis, Bloc Party etc etc but I will assume this conversation is over now as I am feeling my sanity being threatened (I cannot live without my music *cries bitterly*) and suddenly I am feeling like I am missing out on a lot of things back in the UK...hahahaha. Dont get me wrong I love Colombia, but still...*rolls eyes* :P
Have a nice one, I am off to dowload a lot of music.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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MacGringo says on Jun 22, 2005, 11:43:

Just looking for your opinion on this miamimike.
You just mentioned 9/11, I realise that this was a really terrible thing that happened on this date, but can I ask you one thing?
I don't want to stereotype the whole of the USA when I say this, but there are a certain amount of Americans who live in a cocoon and think that if something bad isn't happening on their doorstep then it doesn't really exist or matter.
You see my problem with Americans always referring to things as pre and post 9/11, and 'the war on terror' is this.
Certain American citizens in certain American cities didn't seem to mind when the IRA were blowing up shopping centers etc in England using donations that came from them.
Where was the war on terror when all this was going on? Oh thats right it didn't matter because it wasn't on Americas doorstep.
This is just an opinion that I have formed gradually through various different discussions regarding this subject, and is not meant as a stereotypical attack on Americans.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 22, 2005, 11:54:

Rubiazo, you might have misunderstood me. I wasn't implying that Colombians don't like their country and that they are leaving in droves because life there is so hard. I was referring to the image of the country in international media and what Colombians think about that and if it's justified or not.

I think I understand (partly) what you are saying about artistic creativity that feeds on social and economical tensions but that is not a real concern for your average Colombian since they have to deal daily with other issues that they consider a priority in their lives. I'm afraid that for most people the sancocho on the table goes before artistic freedom and creativity.

You have every right for your choice of environment that you feel you can thrive and fullfill your needs and desires, but you shouldn't assume that others who don't have your freedom and economical means should agree with you.

I don't buy your theory about artistic creativity benefitting from an ambience of crime, drugs, prostitution and violence. It's true that some of the best artists and musicians have done some of their best work before they got wealthy, when they were still "hungry". Money is what makes the difference, not crime and prostitution that are just symptoms for a society in trouble. Colombia's troubles are multiple but I'd say it's absolutely great that in spite of them arts, music, writing is being produced in the country and of such high quality.

The point I was making is that people in Colombia are struggling to overcome formidable obstacles in their every day life, in form of poverty, insecurity, criminality etc. You would not find much sympathy from their part for preserving the status quo to provide artistically stimulating environment for foreigners. They can't afford to accomodate you. They have other priorities and I can't blame them.

Said all this, I will also relocate to Colombia, in spite of everything when the time is right. I don't need any luxury and my lifestyle is very simple and down to earth. I know what I'm getting in the bargain and will want to face the struggle together with my Colombian people for the evolution of the society, not take refuge in an exotic third-world country that has not been tainted by "western" civilization.

Cheers,
Desi
(BTW I'm not a Colombian expat)

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Rubiazo says on Jun 22, 2005, 12:02:

Gringo I actually agree with you there. I find it disgusting how they make SUCH a big deal out of 9/11 here. Its like the first time a bully meets somebody in the schoolyard who actually sucker punches him and gets the better of him and then runs around for weeks going ITS NOT FAIRRRRRRRRRR!
My complaint is exactly that, that people have absolutely turned into babies here after 9/11. Whereas in a place like Colombia they just deal with it and move on.
And yes, Americans are very insular and the NYers are the worst of the bunch. For the longest time, you could never leave Manhattan and just watch the whole world show up at your doorstep.
Colombians on the other hand seem to be much more cosmopolitan. I still cant believe that I ate the best sushi of my life in Bogota. Who'da thunk it?

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Albatross says on Jun 22, 2005, 12:10:

... The Cure, The Smiths, The Strokes, Soft Cell, The Eurythmics, The Samples... sorry Cereal.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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MacGringo says on Jun 22, 2005, 12:12:

I'm glad you agree Rubiazo, just like you said, the Colombians just deal with it. The English had to live with the IRA setting off bombs for years and they just got on with it aswell.

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Albatross says on Jun 22, 2005, 12:12:

"New Yorkers are the Worst of the Bunch" ? "New Yorkers are the worst of the bunch...
Colombians on the other hand seem to be much more cosmopolitan."

That's the dumbest comment I've heard in my entire life.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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jh816 says on Jun 22, 2005, 12:32:

War is good for civilization????? Rubiazo, you seem like a fairly smart guy so I've got to ask if you really believe that because many regions that have experienced a period of growth after a period of conflict then it must have been the conflict that spurred the growth. C'mon, do you really think we need mass genocide to have progress? Look at these conflicts you mention and ask what really precipitated the following period. Sure from crusading armies you also spread ideas and culture, but did you really need the armies to do that in the first place. From your logic, since the native populations of central and south america may not have developed to the extent they are at today it was actually GOOD that the conquistadors invade, subjugate, and destroy most of their civilizations. You will never produce anything after a war that you could not have produce without the war in greater quantities.

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jh816 says on Jun 22, 2005, 12:45:

oh yeah, ...and I'm sure Hell's Kitchen isn't the worst place on earth(by far), it just seemed that way. My point is that this whole post is a relative point. It is easy to say that Colombians are better off without many of the things you talk about when you enjoy the opportunity to change your situation. It is an entirely different viewpoint when you do not have the luxury of opportunity. Sure most Colombians would not leave their country for all the peace or money in the world, it is a matter of pride and patriotism. But ask any of them if they would give up a little culture to not have to see the violence, death, and destruction in their country and I imagine the answer would be yes.

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Rubiazo says on Jun 22, 2005, 13:20:

Albatross I stand corrected. BOGOTANOS are very cosmopolitan. I've never been anywhere else in Colombia, so I would just be talking about my ass about anywhere else.

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Rubiazo says on Jun 22, 2005, 13:31:

jh first off, yes i really do believe that it was BECAUSE of the conflict and not IN SPITE of it. I think that to a certain extent we need it 'rough' in order really actualize ourselves and thrive. Too much peace and comfort and luxury makes us soft just like too much inbreeding erodes the gene pool.

As for whether it was GOOD or BAD that the conquistadores came and wreaked havoc in South America, I really don't know how to answer that. GOOD and BAD are such relative concepts anyways. I'm sure that a lot was lost in the perishing of those civilizations that might otherwise have been retained under different circumstances, and that seems like a waste. I certainly like the end product of it, however. :)))) so it wasn't all 'BAD', maybe some of both.

I'm really not postulating anything here that isnt already laid out in the writings of Nietszche or other luminaries. I'm just basically regurgitating his shit and some elementary concepts from the Qabbalah and paraprhasing them (the REAL Qabbalah not the Madonna one :P).

I really don't know whether most Colombians would give up a little or a lot of culture to diminish or end the violence in their country. I'll have to go out and ask a bunch of Colombians in Colombia who'se opinions I respect. I can say that most of the NYC ones wouldn't though, because THAT is exactly the kind of stuff they are dying for up here and what they originally undervalued coming up here!

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Colombiche says on Jun 22, 2005, 14:23:

I think you guys are getting mixed up Rubiazo's comment about Colombian expats in Toronto I believe was directed at me because.... well, I am an Arepa eating, cumbia dancing, empanada loving Colombiana who happens to be living uncomfortably close to the artic circle :P For some reason, he directed his reply at Desi.

I agree with Rubiazo that not all Colombians are beating down the gates to get out of the country. Except for my immediate family and about 10 relatives that I have scattered all over the states and Spain, all the other 500 chose to remain in Colombia. Their life styles are pretty decent. They are on average very happy people. They are very educated and civilized. The only reason why I ended up in Canada was because my father couldn't get his shit together back in colombia so he decided to move up here and try his luck. Had my family's situation been different, I would have grown up there and I am sure I would be leading a normal life.

De todas maneras, I thank Canada for being kind to me. Sure it is not the perfect place, but what the hell... el que no cojea de una pata cojea de la otra.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jun 22, 2005, 14:32:

War tourism is nothing new. You'll see it all over the world (you should have seen the hordes that poured into Sarajevo after that seige ended) and it's very closely related to Rubiazo's line of thinking that Colombia can/should remain fucked up so it's not "ruined" by the tourist hordes.

But honestly, there's a large middle ground between what's going on in Arauca or Putamayo and a place becoming the next Cancun. The people who really decide should be the Colombians themselves and I don't think most of them would mind a little tourism and a whole lot more peace.

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utopiacowboy says on Jun 22, 2005, 16:20:

Rubiazo, how can you say Desi is a Colombian ex-pat? She's from Finland not Colombia.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 22, 2005, 16:34:

Rubiazo you said you had the best sushi ever here in Bogota but never mentioned where, now spill the beans, I wanna know!!! Where did you eat that sushi?
Albatross you mean thing, thank God you screwed up though, The Strokes are American :P Had you said Snow Patrol or Kasabian then I wouldve probably broken into tears.
I agree with Rubiazo and MacGringo...Did you guys saw that study from the BBC in regards to NYC? British specialists concluded that another 911 or something of equal proportions can be easily achieved because security measures are -again- directed towards irrelevant targets... Go figure. Ill try and search it on the net if anyone here is interested in reading it.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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kernow62 says on Jun 22, 2005, 17:22:

Rubiazo I cannot possibly tell you what bands I think you will like from the UK because I don't know your musical tastes. I like Aphex Twin, Juno Reactor, The Chemical Brothers, I still like Fatboy Slim, Susheela Rahman, Bally Sagoo, Panjabi MC, Apache Indian etc. I must say though my favourite (sadly now defunct) group is from Spain, Dusminguet and most of the music I listen to comes from France, the Middle-east, Colombia, and of course India. By the way Desi you are famous in India.

http://www.desifm.com/

http://www.desiradio.org.uk/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desi

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Rubiazo says on Jun 22, 2005, 17:29:

Ok here we go: I was mistaken about Desi, I thought she was born there. I dunno how that one slipped by me like that. My bad.

What I actually said is that I think it should be left up to the will of the Colombian people what they wanna be. I'd HOPE that the end result would be NOTHING similar to the Disneyfied NYC though as I definitely feel it was better before. And I've never been to Arauca or Putomayo and probably never will go there. I'm mainly about the big cities, and I hate the extreme heat. I'm worried about them cleaning up Bogota Medallo and Cali and killing all the good things about those places in the process;throwing out the baby with the bath, if you will.

I was actually talking about some Colombians I knew from Toronto, which at one time were many (when I lived there.) There are really so few Latin Americans in Toronto it's not hard to know a big chunk of em. I was playing a lot of salsa and merengue at the time. I used to love the Swan club off of Wilson av and umm umm Keele was it? Colombians always seem to build the best nightclubs wherever they go :) But most Colombians I met in TO were misearble and dying to go back, and most of them eventually did just that.

Cerealkiller it was at a place called 'Wok'. It's somewhere in the North in the 80s or 90s right next to a park. I drank too much sake and cant remember. :P and the altitude etc etc... (yeah right). They had a great spicy carrot soup too!

What I would really like to see happen is instead of tourists, I'd love to see some of these awesome NY musicians come down with me to Bogota and mishmash with the local musicians and come up with a really good scene. But I doubt that will happen. Those who dont speak Spanish are probably not gonna go down there long-term (unless things get REALLY bad here, who knows?) and other Latin American artists and musicians are likely to return to their own countries rather than go to Colombia.

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Rubiazo says on Jun 22, 2005, 17:30:

kernow You can bet those bands are entered in my Emule search list now!

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 22, 2005, 17:30:

Yay Kernow I was thinking the same thing...French Music rocks my socks...Air, St Germain, Rinocerose, Daft Punk, Cassius, Miss Kitten and Telepopmusik...Rubiazo you need to look into that. But then again those are things I like and perhaps youre into different thins

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jun 22, 2005, 20:27:

Don't lose sleep worrying about it Rubiazo, I understand your point better now. But, honestly, I don't think you really have to worry about it happening too much. If you look at Peru, for example, I think it's safe to say that the average Peruvian is happier now than when the Sendero Luminoso was kidnapping and blowing things up, just like the FARC does in Colombia. Security is better there now and, yes, there are LOTS of tourists in places like Machu Pichu and Cuzco. But you honestly can't tell me that the "rough" side of things has been eliminated in Lima, much less any of dozens of Peruvian cities and towns where you won't see a lot of tourists.

Personally, what I find oppressive about living in Colombia is not feeling like its safe to just jump in my car and drive for 5 hours anywhere I want. We get out of the city a fair amount, but there's always that risk hovering over us, and there are a LOT of places I'd love to go and simply cannot. Personally, I hope that changes for everyone's sake.

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Rubiazo says on Jun 22, 2005, 20:33:

I downloaded a WHOLE MESS of this stuff. Great songs, guys. How much of it is really from the UK and how much is from India though
I was listening to a Bollywood soundtrack on the way back from a gig in a yellow cab and I was screaming at the driver to turn it ALL THE WAY UP. It was just incredible stuff, like, done at a level British and US bands used to do in the 70s. Just top notch in every way.
I loved that remix of Oye Como Va too. Havent gotten to the French stuff, TBH I haven't heard much French stuff I liked YET but I'm always looking!
I like ALL kinds of music, absolutely no limits, but I'm VERY picky regardless of style. Kind of like with food!

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kernow62 says on Jun 22, 2005, 20:57:

Rubiazo, bhangra music is the music of the Punjabi people but they reside in the UK in great numbers and the sort of bhangra artists I listed are not only from the UK but the style they play is quite foreign to India although obviously incorporating lots of influences from Mother India. Apache Indian used to be strictly reggae when I started listening to him in the early 1980s and has only recently started finding his Indian roots musically. Bhangra is one of the biggest music scenes in the UK. Remember the UK reggae groups Steel Pulse & Aswad, they actually won major awards in JA beating out local bands. Have you ever listened to Lynton Kwesi Johnson the brilliant dub poet fantastic stuff. The UK was the scene for ska or bluebeat as it was known, even the greatest Prince Buster moved to the UK. Then of course there was the two-tone craze, The Specials, The Selecter, The Bodysnatchers, and my favourites Judge Dread and Bad Manners. And who could forget Ian Dury & the Blockheads a musical, lyrical genius IMHO. What I am getting at is that the UK has always been very open to outside musical influences, it is absorbed and mixed and spit out as a UK product, different from the original, but with enough similarity that the music is adopted overseas from whence it originated. I find this interplay between countires re: music to be fascinating. I was spinning an old album the other evening and my wife happened to read on the jacket the name Andrew Loog Oldahm, she shouts out, I met him in Bogotá. Sure I said. Bugger me, I read his bio and she was right.

http://www.andrewloogoldham.com/bio.html

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adrimm says on Jun 22, 2005, 21:09:

Kal Ho Na Ho + Lhasa Anyone heard the soundtrack of that? Good stuff and best was a complete rework of "Pretty Woman" (totally different sound).

Lhasa is from Montreal I believe, has some hauntingly beautiful and different music.

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Rubiazo says on Jun 22, 2005, 21:23:

It's funny people from London in the 80s and early 90s were coming to NYC in great numbers for musical purposes. The tide is definitely turning the other way now though. I may wind up in London, at least temporarily. I had a friend that was doing very well there till they deported him :))

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 22, 2005, 21:37:

Make sure you record your album in the states before crossing the Atlantic. Studios in the UK are awfully expensive thats why most British bands fly to the states and record there. :P

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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Rubiazo says on Jun 22, 2005, 22:04:

I may do one better And have shit mixed in Bogota, if I can find an engineer I like that fits the budget!

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Albatross says on Jun 23, 2005, 04:12:

Aside from that New Yorkers Crack... I more or less agree with Rubiazo. I remember back in the late 80's early 90's when Giuliani was busy sanitizing the city to make way for family tourism and corporate hucksters i.e. "Disneyfication", alot of people thought the whole thing went too far. The photographer Annie Liebowitz put it succinctly when she quipped, “They (families / children) have the whole rest of the world, why do they need 42nd Street as well ?”. I feel the same about Colombia (and the Internet for that matter), why does every damn place on the planet have to be “safe” just so that some fat, lazy tourist can feel comfortable looking for cheap souvenirs and all you can eat buffets.

P.S. I thought Daft Punk were German... I’d pretty much written off the French as far as anything resembling music was concerned. And a Brit turned me on to The Strokes when they were in London a few years ago... I just assumed they were British. Also, I mentioned The Samples, I meant The Specials.

Steel Pulse was the UK's answer to Bob Marley, "Handsworth Revolution" and "Tribute to the Martyrs" were both awesome. Burning Spear's "Live in Paris '88", and UB40's "Rat in the Kitchen" and "Geffery Morgan" were also great.

And don't forget The Police...

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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kernow62 says on Jun 23, 2005, 04:44:

Cerealkiller everything costs more in the UK with the exception of some grocery items. A lot of the sound engineers have also migrated because they earn more overseas. Every music lover has to take the Abbey Road Studios tour. I want the B&W monitors they have!

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jun 23, 2005, 04:59:

Safe? "why does every damn place on the planet have to be “safe” just so that some fat, lazy tourist can feel comfortable looking for cheap souvenirs and all you can eat buffets."

Comparing what Giuliani did to Times Square to an entire country plagued with kidnapping, landmines, warring narco-gangs and displacement numbering into the millions of people seems like quite a stretch to me.

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Albatross says on Jun 23, 2005, 05:12:

Perhaps... Well, it was an only an analogy and perhaps a bit of a stretch and I’m certainly not suggesting that there’s any redeeming value in poverty and murder. But I don’t see the value of sprawling suburbia, generic uber-stores and incessant “reality” TV, either.

Also, Although I’m no expert in Colombia, I’ve never heard of a landmine problem there and I am not aware of “displacement numbering into the millions”.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 23, 2005, 07:08:

Yeah well Kernow everything is more expensive in the UK except maybe for certain Banking products and Utilities...okay and booze but I read Happy Hours are banned to do binge drinking? when is that happening?

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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fosth says on Jun 23, 2005, 07:12:

Booze is expensive anyway when compared to the rest of europe. Didn't know about the Happy hour thing.

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 23, 2005, 07:36:

Fosth, where abouts in the UK are you? Im quite certain I read it somewhere before I left the UK, I just dont know when is it coming into practice.
And yes, youre absolutely right, my mistake, booze is certainly more expensive in the UK when compared to the rest of Europe. I do remember trips to the Carrefour right by the Pas de Calais just to buy loads of alcohol.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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fosth says on Jun 23, 2005, 07:51:

Well i don't go out that often :'(
Happy hours generally only seem to happen in the cities, London, Manchester ,Birmingham. I'm in sedate Winchester

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jun 23, 2005, 07:51:

Funny "But I don’t see the value of sprawling suburbia, generic uber-stores and incessant “reality” TV, either."

While I agree with you entirely, sadly, a lot of Colombians don't. You might have noticed a giant chain called Exito, which is basically the KMart of Colombia, or Carrefour, or HomeCenter... Big box stores are alive and thriving in Colombia. And "Reality TV" is the hottest thing in Colombian networks. The sprawling suburbs tend to be borderline shantytowns in the south, but those are here too.

If you care to study up on the landmine problem here, this is a good start:
http://www.icbl.org/lm/2004/colombia

Here's a good overview of the internal displacement problem:
http://www.ncadc.org.uk/archives/filed%20newszines/newszine47/columbia.html

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Colombiche says on Jun 23, 2005, 08:10:

Swan Club in TO Rubiazo I used to go there back in 1998 to watch the eliminatorias al mundial.

I didn't like the place too much, I though it was a dingy basement. I used to like watching the games there though.


You'd be surprised to see how many colombians live in this city now, not as many as NY or Miami, but quite a few flocked in between 1999 and 2004. You can even order arepas and have them delivered to your doorstep these days.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 23, 2005, 08:43:

fosth Yes, the happy hour is banned now, but they planing to let the pubs to stay open till midnight
CerealK, everytime I go to France, I always stock myself with lots of wine, is cheaper there and there are better selection.;-)

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 23, 2005, 08:54:

Oh Kat I do know what you mean hahaha. Have a drink for both please. I am on vodka and redbull here in bogota, ive got a liver ache already.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 23, 2005, 09:24:

lol cerealK Vodka and redbull, that is going to give you a hell of a hangover, have you got blood in your alcohol system?.jeje

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 23, 2005, 09:31:

Oh well, tell me about it, I ran out of Pimms and I cant get it anywhere within a 1000 mile radius.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 23, 2005, 09:38:

wow, kernow my fame is spreading....
Desi for me is just short for Desideria, born Desirée Clary, the silk merchant's daughter from Marseille.

You red bull fanatics there, that stuff mixed with vodka can be lethal.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 23, 2005, 09:54:

Yes CerealK keep drinking that stuff, and next you'll be dancing Juanes with SantiBog jejeje

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elmodefoque says on Jun 23, 2005, 10:03:

hola kat, como carajo estas hoy. que tienes puesto?

ASK NOT WHAT THE PUSSY CAN DO FOR YOU, BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR THAT PUSSY!!!!!!!!!! CAT LOVER

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 23, 2005, 10:05:

tu vestido favorito, te acuerdas ;-)

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utopiacowboy says on Jun 23, 2005, 10:14:

Muy corto, espero?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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fosth says on Jun 24, 2005, 02:34:

Just wondering I know this thread has swayed somewhat from it's original theme but since Cereal and Kat were talking about drinking it just wanted to know if when people are in Colombia they drink alcohol with Juice as a mixer?
I mentioned having Vodka with Cranberry juice or Orange to my girlfriend and she looked at me like i had 2 heads!!!

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kernow62 says on Jun 24, 2005, 04:32:

Mixed drinks, how girly! ;-)

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fosth says on Jun 24, 2005, 04:39:

Not for me. Standard drink for me, a beer or possibly a G and T. But a fruit based drink for the ladies doesn't seem to be the norm in Colombia like it is in the UK

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kernow62 says on Jun 24, 2005, 04:44:

Phew, glad that's sorted.

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