Colombians abroad, a loss to Colombia, in most cases a gain to the host country

miamimike says on Sunday March 23rd, 2008 13:53:

I know a Bogota Lawyer who earns $600 weekly in Boca Raton, Fl as a companion house cleaner. Its degrading but for $600 and a steady paycheck?? She told me many times her Colombian clients would defer payment for her services and she cannot pay her bills that way.

Papi de Alejo says on Sunday March 23rd, 2008 14:06:

MM - I bet you if she is a good lawyer and willing, she could make a killing working with Americans who want to do things in Colombia. If she understands both the American and Colombian legal systems, has both languages down pat, she could put into place all of those American type contracts in a way where they will be accepted in Colombia.

PdA

jorgegdiaz says on Sunday March 23rd, 2008 14:38:

It´s a shame that most people who don´t want to return are people afraid of not having the same comfort as they are used to abroad.

I worked in a restaurant as waiter/bartender while in grad school making about U$200 per shift giving me a pretty darn good confortable life. But it´s a life with no long term future.

I think I´m trying to return some of the oportunities I had while growing up here by having returned and applying my education / abroad-work-experience aquiered in my jobs. All those people who say they love Colombia by wearing flag color T-shirts and bumper stickers don´t do much for Colombia.

Sorry if I ranted too much

Man with hole in pocket feel cocky all day.

Simon says on Sunday March 23rd, 2008 17:01:

"I know a Bogota Lawyer who earns $600 weekly in Boca Raton, Fl as a companion house cleaner. Its degrading"


Why is it "degrading" to do honest work?

"Qué te calles, coño!" -- Capitán Vidal (Laberinto del Fauno/Pan's Labyrinth)

jorgegdiaz says on Sunday March 23rd, 2008 17:05:

I understand degrading as subemployment Simon.

Man with hole in pocket feel cocky all day.

Simon says on Sunday March 23rd, 2008 17:06:

Si es trabajo honrado, para mí no tiene nada de "degrading".

"Qué te calles, coño!" -- Capitán Vidal (Laberinto del Fauno/Pan's Labyrinth)

ColombianoGringo says on Sunday March 23rd, 2008 17:26:

Any honest, ethical work deserves respect.There is nothing wrong with cleaning toilets. However, I think it is certainly not her ideal situation. It is a real shame for someone who worked and studied hard for an education to end up cleaning toilets. I have distant members of my family that did that sort of thing, but they were uneducated.

My wife is finishing her law school exit exams in Colombia. Unfortunately, she won't be able to practice law in the US. However, there are lots of other jobs she could do. I think in the absolute worst case, she could be a school teacher and make $40K a year. The money isn't great, but it is a professional job that allows you to use your education to some degree. She will most likely go into human resources as she works in that field in Colombia, but you can damn well bet she won't be cleaning homes.

My point is that sometimes professionals come to this country and sell themselves short. The US is full of immigrants with thick accents working in all kinds of professional jobs. There is no need to settle for menial jobs.

Simon says on Sunday March 23rd, 2008 18:03:

"I have distant members of my family that did that sort of thing, but they were uneducated."

And I have close relatives "who did that sort of thing" too and I'm proud of them for being hard-working, decent people.

Qué vivan los Colombianos trabajadores y honrados!

"Qué te calles, coño!" -- Capitán Vidal (Laberinto del Fauno/Pan's Labyrinth)

Robert Jorge says on Sunday March 23rd, 2008 18:08:

My wife now cleans houses. I am extremely proud of her.

jorgegdiaz says on Sunday March 23rd, 2008 18:09:

I agree with CG. One thing is being an inmigrant other is selling yourself short..

If one has an education him/her should damn put it to use.

Man with hole in pocket feel cocky all day.

ColombianoGringo says on Sunday March 23rd, 2008 18:10:

As I said, there is nothing wrong with manual labor. My dad worked as a cook when he was in college in the US. Many of my relatives have done similar stuff or construction, etc. However, they used those jobs as stepping stones to bigger and better things. I think it is a waste when an educated person settles for a "menial" job when they could be accomplishing so much more with their intelligence and education.

I realize that it is hard as an immigrant, especially when you don't speak English well. However, I know too many people that have overcome those things to believe that someone should just accept something less than they have to.

Let me reiterate that I don't look down on people for the job that they do. I am just as nice, if not nicer, to the guy cutting lawns or working in a fast food joint than some executive in an expensive suit. However, I always try to encourage those people to not settle and to seek out opportunities. Say what you want about the US, but it is still a land of opportunity and there are no limits to what a motivated, educated person can accomplish. My family is just one of millions of examples of this.

Monpirri says on Sunday March 23rd, 2008 18:17:

More facts about Colombians abroad, keep in mind that the article is from 2005 so the actual statistics may be more than the estimated in 2005 or the population abroad may be less than the numbers from 2005 because many Colombians have returned back.
Registered in Consulates - Top six countries

Venezuela 265, 036
United States 258, 173
Spain 114, 113
Ecuador 34, 292
Argentina 10, 700
Germany 8, 744

http://www.migrationinformation.org/Profiles/display.cfm?ID=344

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

ColombianoGringo says on Sunday March 23rd, 2008 18:21:

Come to think of it, I didn't escape paying my dues in crap jobs. Let see, what were the really bad ones.

- Fry guy at Whataburger
- Waiter at Bennigans and the Olive Garden.
- Summer jobs selling cars at Ford and Mazda dealerships.
- Telephone collection agent
- Telephone Gallup pollster (got an extra $1 for every Spanish poll - Yeehaw)

I'm sure I'm leaving out a few, but my point is that my life would have sucked if I had simply settled for any one of those jobs and just stayed there. Beyond paying for school, I never asked my parents for a dime so I had my share of disconnected electricity service, hiding the car from the repo guy, eating macaroni and cheese every night, etc. I could have just asked them to bail me out at any point, but I chose to make my own way and consequently lived through that crap in life and it simply inspired me to keep moving forward and working towards a better life.

ColombianoGringo says on Sunday March 23rd, 2008 18:26:

Monpirri. Are those numbers only those people who have registered with the consulates? I wonder what percentage of Colombians actually do that.

Monpirri says on Sunday March 23rd, 2008 18:36:

ColombianoGringo, you are right, I only quoted the ones who are registered.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

MaFe says on Sunday March 23rd, 2008 19:30:

Simon says on Sunday March 23rd, 2008 18:03:

"I have distant members of my family that did that sort of thing, but they were uneducated."

And I have close relatives "who did that sort of thing" too and I'm proud of them for being hard-working, decent people.

Qué vivan los Colombianos trabajadores y honrados!"


I am with Simon 100%! What is wrong with doing honest work? My aunt was a teacher in Colombia, came to the states in the 60's, worked and retired cleaning a hotel in NY city. I will tell you that I am 100% proud of my aunt. She worked harder than any professional I know, she always sent back money to Colombia, while surviving here. I am proud of my aunt because she proved that coming to a new country as a professional, she was able to make a living; HONEST- DESCENT living. My aunt CHOSE to come to a new country. She knew the consequences, and decided that's what she would do with her life. She is in Cali now, retired, and lives a WONDERFUL, COMFORTABLE life. If it wasn't for her, my mother and I would have never been able to come to this country.

How many professionals have you met in Colombia, or anywhere in the world that aren’t that smart? I have! Just because you are a doctor/lawyer/teacher in Colombia or anywhere, doesn’t mean you are better and smarter! I have met people with NO education who are very smart! Sorry but a diploma doesn't impress me.

I have more respect for people like my aunt who was an honest worker, rather than bimbos who go off to a different country, become prostitutes and act like they are more worthy than a toilet cleaning person!

"No comment" is a splendid expression. I am using it again and again." -Winston Churchill

miamimike says on Sunday March 23rd, 2008 19:52:

Papi de Alejo says on Sunday March 23rd, 2008 14:06:

MM - I bet you if she is a good lawyer and willing, she could make a killing working with Americans who want to do things in Colombia. If she understands both the American and Colombian legal systems, has both languages down pat, she could put into place all of those American type contracts in a way where they will be accepted in Colombia.

PdA

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Papi de alejo--She doesn't really understand our system and outside of her law speciality, not a whole lot of Colombian Law. I suggested many things she could sell in Colombia but she wasn't willing to take a chance. Her English is not good, very basic at best and now she has retruned to Colombia.

Simon--her words that cleaning houses was degrading. I tried to explain to her that as Americans, many times we do jobs that may be below our imaginery Pay Grade, but as long as its honest and pays the bills, go for it. She was working illegally on a Tourist Visa so her horizones were limited. At times she was a Sabe Lo Todo and wouldn't take advice.

Past menial Jobs: Paperboy from age 11 to 17(.02 per paper profit, delivered in rain, sun or Snow) . In the winter, along with my paper Route, I shoveled the Neighbor's Sidewalks and Driveways. Unloaded Freight Train Box cars--1 week at this job at age `17, Between 11th-12th grade in the Summers and Fall weekends-Worked with the Mexican Migrant Farmworkers picking Fruit in the fields and trees, also trimmed Grape vines with them in the late fall and winter.I know from personal experience the Hardships these Folks go through, at least I had a warm bed and home to go afterwards. In the Coast Guard, until I received rank as a Petty Officer, I had midnight watches and had to clean(mop) the Command Office's floors and empty the Trash cans and Ash trays.Did this for a year, it was a real incentive to study hard and get higher rankings to leave work like this behind. Many other Navy and Coast Guard Sailors did the same! They didn't call us Sailors "Swabbies" for nothing! LOL Many current American(young) think working at McDonalds on the Fry Line or Cash Register think they have it hard, they don't have a Clue as to what Hard work really entails,,,

webmanco says on Sunday March 23rd, 2008 20:00:

El trabajo no es deshonra, I am proud of hard workers regardless their education background.

thinking about it if hard working will make you rich then "burros will hold bank accounts"

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

Desideria says on Monday March 24th, 2008 1:50:

I'm with CG on this one and like him, do not believe there's anything wrong with any honest work, but I believe it's a waste of talents and education for all the people holding degrees work at the lowest-level maintenance and service jobs in the First World countries, just for the paycheck. I happen to believe that work should be something more meaningful than that; the reason these people (most of them) studied and invested plenty in their careers in most cases was that they also wanted to be something more in life.

To go through the process of homologizing or revalidating your foreign degrees is a tedious and difficult process, but I believe it's worth the effort, not only moneywise, but at a personal level too.

Colombia and other LA countries (as almost all Third World) are being constantly bled of their most talented and productive minds.

Let me ask you a question, Simon, MaFe etc Colombians living in exile: if you had a professional degree in Colombia, say MD, lawyer, etc. would you personally be happy parking cars or collecting trash in USA just because the pay is better? (Which it may or may not be). Is it worth it?

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

american says on Monday March 24th, 2008 2:40:

the truth about this post is simply "know yourself" if you know who you are and your weaknesses and strengths as a person you know what type of work is right for you to do...but if you look upon work as lowering or highering on a personal level then you have lost yourself...some jobs may be really hard for someone to do if that is the case then the work will be soul destroying other work will be so right for that persons inner make up that they will be at joy with it...lets say you loved people and worked in a cafe and connected with people and made them feel much better you would love the job but if you then did a job cleaning with no human contact it would be all wrong for you..so aligning yourself with a job that is right for who you are is the most important thing

Cerealkiller says on Monday March 24th, 2008 3:45:

Im with Desi and CG. I appreciate honest work, menial or not BUT I dont tend to not overvalue it either because that is what I expect from everyone. If people leave their countries to be robbers and drugdealers abroad then they're scumbags IMO. That said, now that I'm an adult I feel awful about having someone picking up after me, to serve me, clean my bathroom etc etc because I am perfectly capable of doing those things myself. Plus I wouldn't freaking wanna clean after others, or scrub their bathroom either. I mean shit...I've invested thousands of dollars and years worth of time in my education because I am convinced the opportunity cost of getting a degree and a masters is totally worth it...So yeah, If i was in a situtation where my career prospects are not very good in the long term, then Im thinking I wouldn't feel awesome about it regardless of the pay. If everything depended on the pay, i would've become a plumber.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

Ctg Bound says on Monday March 24th, 2008 5:44:

Monpirri,

There were a 100,000s Colombian in the London area in 2001, some of them were illegal, but I expect most are registered.

From my reading, either Spain or the USA are are always number 1 for Colombians then the UK as third, not counting Colombias neighbours in Latin America.

ColombianoGringo says on Monday March 24th, 2008 7:31:

CK,

It's funny you mention opportunity cost. To me, settling for a job for which you are extremely overqualified has a massive opportunity cost.

I also am uncomfortable having someone As is commonly the case, most of my relatives in Colombia had live in maids. Even as a child, it struck me as very odd. Especially as I grew older, I couldn't get used to the idea of a stranger cleaning up after me and washing my underwear. On a funny note, I've always thought that it was very stupid that people would treat their maids like shit and then have them do all the cooking.

webmanco says on Monday March 24th, 2008 7:45:

On the other hand, when someone recomends you a person to cook and clean up after your self, you are advice not to pay more than, less say $20.000 or $25.000, otherwise the cleaning and cooking person get spoiled, go figure.

I was kind of ashamed when a kid, because at my home we used to sale homemade icecream and Obleas.

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

Cerealkiller says on Monday March 24th, 2008 7:56:

HAHAHA CG i totally get that. You know as a child I was the most despicable little girl ever. And although we had a live in maid-nanny, my mom hired a cleaner-cook to come twice a week or so...when my nanny was off on holiday I'd make the life of this other woman miserable, throw her stuff out the window, walk through the kitchen with dirty shoes etc etc. When I grew a bit older, I would throw tantrums but i was smart enough to live off crisps and fast food for a day because the thought of her spitting on my food was terrifying.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

morphus says on Monday March 24th, 2008 8:00:

A bunch of losers! They could'nt make it in Colombia so they mooch off the success of other countries.

ColombianoGringo says on Monday March 24th, 2008 8:02:

morph, Isn't there a prepago thread to which you could be could be contributing?

jorgegdiaz says on Monday March 24th, 2008 8:03:

What I don´t get is that same people who flip patties at Mcdonalds wouln´t move a finger in Locombia.

CK... have you changed your habits as a kid?... oh, dear

Man with hole in pocket feel cocky all day.

ColombianoGringo says on Monday March 24th, 2008 8:16:

wm, That's funny. My dad and my uncle started selling homemade obleas to stores around Bogota when they were eleven and twelve respectively.
A little "rebusca" is nothing to be ashamed about, but as kids we don't always see it that way.

Heck, I had a t-shirt making business out of my garage when I was a kid. My grandfather gave me a transfer iron that he got God knows where. We went to some place that sold t-shirt transfers and I did that for the whole summer.

Monpirri says on Monday March 24th, 2008 8:19:

Ctg Bound, you info sounds correct as well because in the chart listed by Minister of Foreign Affairs in Colombia, they have England with an estimated 90,000 Colombians.
Again, I only posted "Registered in consulates" and Venezuela is on the top of the list and I kind of believe this because there are several Colombian companies in Venezuela (I visited one co. when I worked there) and there are several Colombian Engineers who work for the oil industry there.

Now, if you take a look at the last row where it says, "Estimated" The numbers are a bit different from the Registered Colombians aboard:

US 2,023,200
Venezuela 1,338,000
Spain 240,390
Ecuador 192,891
United Kingdom 90,000
Italy 64,000

http://www.migrationinformation.org/Profiles/display.cfm?ID=344

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

Cerealkiller says on Monday March 24th, 2008 8:22:

Yes Jorge, I became convinced that Ive had my fair share of spit, so I changed my ways.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

webmanco says on Monday March 24th, 2008 8:38:

A few extra bucks don´t hurt, I remember once selling milk on those "carros esferados", maybe for a couple of weeks, back then there were a shoot out between emerald dealers in barrio Santa Isabel.

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

Ctg Bound says on Monday March 24th, 2008 9:13:

Monpirri,

The second set of figures looks a lot better to me, many people don't bother to register at a consulate.

Surprised there are not more estimated Colombians in Panama.

Simon says on Monday March 24th, 2008 9:18:

"Let me ask you a question, Simon, MaFe etc Colombians living in exile: if you had a professional degree in Colombia, say MD, lawyer, etc. would you personally be happy parking cars or collecting trash in USA just because the pay is better? (Which it may or may not be). Is it worth it?"


No, I don't think I'd be happier but I think that doing those manual labor jobs is better than constantly worrying about someone trying to extort me or threatening to kidnap me.

"Qué te calles, coño!" -- Capitán Vidal (Laberinto del Fauno/Pan's Labyrinth)

ColombianoGringo says on Monday March 24th, 2008 9:27:

Simon, It surprises me to hear you say that. You don't like people talking badly about Colombia, yet here you state that it is essentially better to mop floors in the US than to be a professional in Colombia. I don't know if you are talking about your personal situation or it is a general statement, but I have lots of doctors and lawyers in my family in Colombia who would disagree with you.

aztec says on Monday March 24th, 2008 9:28:

Don't think it is that simple. I know people living in Colombia with law and engineering degrees who can't find a job.

Simon says on Monday March 24th, 2008 9:30:

I'm saying it's better to live humbly in another country than to live with fear. And we all can't come from the Santo Domingo or Ardille Lulle family like some.

"Qué te calles, coño!" -- Capitán Vidal (Laberinto del Fauno/Pan's Labyrinth)

ColombianoGringo says on Monday March 24th, 2008 9:36:

You don't have to come from a rich family to have a great life in Colombia. My grandparents on both sides grew up dirt poor in small towns in various parts of Colombia, yet almost all their children and grandchildren have been very successful whether in Colombia or abroad. I guess we've been very lucky to not lose anyone to crime or terrorism. There have been several close calls. Amongst other things, my dad almost got blown up in the Centro Colombo bombing in the sixties and a cousin barely escaped getting killed in the Parque Lleras bombing several years back. Still, my relatives don't live in fear and have some really great lives there.

The other side of that coin is that in the US, people who don't earn a lot often end up living in some pretty dangerous places. You may not have to worry about getting kidnapped by guerrillas, but you have a pretty good chance of falling victim to crime.

I often wonder what life would have been like if my parents had stayed there instead of moving back to the US when I was a kid. I suppose it is a bit of the "grass is greener" thinking, but I really like the way my cousins in Colombia live.

Simon says on Monday March 24th, 2008 9:43:

Pues te cuento que yo acabo de ver de primera mano como viven mis primos en Colombia y vi que eso no es vida (a menos que uno tenga un muy buen trabajo). Pero eso de que le den a uno contratos para trabajar de 4 a 6 meses y luego quedar sin empleo o tener que trabajar turnos de 12 horas diarias no sirve para mí.

"Qué te calles, coño!" -- Capitán Vidal (Laberinto del Fauno/Pan's Labyrinth)

webmanco says on Monday March 24th, 2008 9:56:

If we spent more than we earn, then we are in trouble, if we wish for no necesary things then we are again in trouble. Unfortuanlly most of us always want more things, often material things for us and our love ones.

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

ColombianoGringo says on Monday March 24th, 2008 9:56:

Pues si. La verdad es que las empresas en Colombia abusan tremendamente de los empleados. Es una verdadera desgracia y lamentablemente, los sindicatos en Colombia no son efectivos por muchas razones. Como te he dicho, no veo nada de malo con que una persona trabaje en un trabajo que algunos consideren humilde. Desde niño, me enseñaron a respetar el trabajo honrado. Mi padre siempre nos corregía cuando decíamos pendejadas elitistas de niños.

Mi único punto es que una persona persona educada y hábil no se debe conformar con cualquier situación menos que ideal solo por ser un inmigrante. Mira, yo tengo un trabajo profesional que me gusta mucho y donde me pagan muy bien. Pero aun así, no me conformo con eso. Todas las noches llego a mi casa, descanso un rato, y me pongo a trabajar en los otros negocios que tengo por el lado, a veces hasta la una o dos de la mañana. No lo hago por necesidad, ni porque mi empleo no sea digno. Lo hago porque quiero tener mas éxito para poder tener mas libertad y para acumular dinero mas rápidamente para precisamente poder largarme a Colombia aun mas rápido.

jorgegdiaz says on Monday March 24th, 2008 10:03:

I agree with CG.
En US yo tenia un trabajo como Ingeniero (medianamente bien pago) trabajando 55 ~ 60 horas/semana.
En Colombia ahora igual trbaajo como ing pero solamente 2 dias a la semana, y como profesor univ otros 2 dias. Ambos mucho menos pago obviamente. En donde queda el tiempo para disfrutar un mejor salario?
Si tienes una educacion por que subemplearte por MAS dinero?... no entiendo eso.

Man with hole in pocket feel cocky all day.

Monpirri says on Monday March 24th, 2008 10:46:

Ctg Bound, I hear you, "Surprised there are not more estimated Colombians in Panama."
US 2,023,200
Venezuela 1,338,000
Spain 240,390
Ecuador 192,891
United Kingdom 90,000
Italy 64,000
Netherlands 30,300
Panama 23,424

http://www.migrationinformation.org/Profiles/display.cfm?ID=344

I wonder if the remittances of USD $3.857 million sent by Colombians who live abroad helps in any way the economy in Colombia?

“In 2004, remittances amounted to US$3.857 million, accounting for four percent of the country's GDP. These resources directly benefit three million Colombians, who spend 80 percent of these funds on food, rent, education, and public services."

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

Monpirri says on Monday March 24th, 2008 11:41:

Another positive comment about Colombians who live abroad, they help promote Colombia in a very positive way, they promote Colombia in everything else that is not disseminated by the biased media. Furthermore, another gain for Colombia is when professional Colombians return back they bring along better ideas as the ones we have seen from former and present leaders in Colombia.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

Ctg Bound says on Monday March 24th, 2008 11:43:

Monpirri,

Remittances from abroad generally go direct to the poorer people in a Country, it certianly helps them and the economy overall.

Monpirri says on Monday March 24th, 2008 11:45:

I agree with you!

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

MaFe says on Monday March 24th, 2008 11:53:

Desideria says on Monday March 24th, 2008 1:50:

"Let me ask you a question, Simon, MaFe etc Colombians living in exile: if you had a professional degree in Colombia, say MD, lawyer, etc. would you personally be happy parking cars or collecting trash in USA just because the pay is better? (Which it may or may not be). Is it worth it?"

I am the second professional on my mother's side. I will proudly said that if I had to go to a different country I WOULD work any honest job. I am an attorney and I am realistic, I know that if I go to a different country, there are educational differences!

MY cousin lives in Switzerland, he does something in finance. His first 6 years there he worked in cleaning. He learned the languages there and now he is doing great. My cousin chose to better himself there, he had to learn the language, go back to school because his Colombian degree wasn't good there. He did all of this because he decided he didn't want to work hard his whole life.

My aunt and many other Colombians CHOSE to clean, again there is NOTHING wrong with that....how come no one has mentioned all the women who become prostitutes? Is this an honest job? NO!! My aunt didn't make that much money teaching in Colombia. Again, this was the 60's, so she chose to move to NY, and start a new life. To this day she says she made 3 times what she did cleaning in NY, rather than teaching in Colombia!

Let's be realistic, I know MANY doctor's in Colombia that make horrible money! Same with attorney's and other professionals. I know many Colombians here in the states and in Germany that were professionals in Colombia and were happy cleaning hotels in their host country because it was more money that they made in Colombia!

And that burro comment, my aunt cleaned and has a full pension. AGAIN she lives very very comfortably in Cali now. Ask her if she would do it again, and she said she has no regrets!

aztec says on Monday March 24th, 2008 9:28:

"Don't think it is that simple. I know people living in Colombia with law and engineering degrees who can't find a job."

Very true Aztec! I know many, many Colombians professionals who drive taxis in Colombia!!!!!

"No comment" is a splendid expression. I am using it again and again." -Winston Churchill

Simon says on Monday March 24th, 2008 11:59:

Y otra cosa que nadie ha mencionado...no todo el mundo nació para estudiar.

"Qué te calles, coño!" -- Capitán Vidal (Laberinto del Fauno/Pan's Labyrinth)

Desideria says on Monday March 24th, 2008 12:19:

MaFe, I didn't say there was anything WRONG with those kind of jobs. I'm used to having to pick up after me and doing my own laundry and cooking which does not mean that I'd be happy doing that for somebody else for the money. I did well in school and I could have chosen to study whatever I wanted in my native Finland but I don't have much ambition and I feel like I'm totally fine doing the work (education) I'm doing now and it isn't for money at all, the pay is lousy and people don't appreciate what I'm doing but it doesn't really matter because I'm totally convinced myself that my contribution to the society is important beyond any monetary rewards.

Now, as an immigrant, would I be happy cleaning toilets, as a shopclerk, working at a factory? Even if the pay was double to that I'm making now? ABSOLUTELY NO!

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

manINred says on Monday March 24th, 2008 13:07:

People who study hard and become good at a profession in a professional field only to drive taxis or clean toilets have every right to be pissed... and it's not a knock on manual labour, it's a logical disappointment that would come from being forced to work below your skillset.

Red tape employment mismatch that comes from immigration is the biggest obstacle to the division of labour and comparative advantage in this day and age. That's why you have

Colombian doctors cleaning windows at the Sheraton Centre... sorry, but that's a task below his skillset.

manINred says on Monday March 24th, 2008 13:11:

Staying on topic, I know many Colombian professionals leaving Colombia right now due to persistant unemployment and better opportunities elsewhere. It takes a ton of paperwork, but they become professionals elsewhere, with jobs paying 5 times what they did in Colombia.

It's a shame really.

MaFe says on Monday March 24th, 2008 13:22:

Desideria says on Monday March 24th, 2008 12:19:

"Now, as an immigrant, would I be happy cleaning toilets, as a shopclerk, working at a factory? Even if the pay was double to that I'm making now? ABSOLUTELY NO!"

Not everyone thinks the same. What is shame for you might not be for another person. That is the beauty of this world, and life...we all have different opinions and perceptions. I will gladly pat anyone in the back who lives their life the way the want to, and if it makes them happy, who am I to criticize? Some people rather have a secure pension to retire in their native Colombia, rather than be a doctor who gets less than $30,000 a year!

To each their own!

"No comment" is a splendid expression. I am using it again and again." -Winston Churchill

MitchAlvarez says on Monday March 24th, 2008 13:26:

MaFe well said.

Tengale miedo a una huelga de mujeres o a una escacez de aguardiente. :)

webmanco says on Monday March 24th, 2008 13:54:

Sometimes you don´t like to live abroad.

Even though you migth earn as much or more doing a job not related to what you studied, and more "degrading" than ejercing your profesion in Colombia, what matters to most is that you are giving a better life to your love ones.

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

Monpirri says on Monday March 24th, 2008 14:14:

Degrading? I do not see anything degrading about cleaning toilets, cleaning windows, or working as dish washer or maid, now degrading is when someone kills, steals and kidnaps for a living.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

Simon says on Monday March 24th, 2008 14:18:

Muy bien dicho Monpirri!!

"Qué te calles, coño!" -- Capitán Vidal (Laberinto del Fauno/Pan's Labyrinth)

Desideria says on Monday March 24th, 2008 14:19:

Yes, I understand that point too, webmanco, Lots of people do that and I would even venture to say that it is the main reason. The money/work correlation is need-based and if you have a large family or are high maintenance yourself then I can well understand why you could make that choice. There are people, however, who prefer to make a modest living in Colombia and do the line of work they have studied for or practice the profession they spent 7 years at the University for than do jobs below their level, even if the money is good.

This is a topic we have often discussed with my friends and family in Colombia. We were faced once with this dilemma and we chose to emigrate but both of us were employed in USA in our own line of work, in education. Granted, we both spoke English and had a college degree plus an extensive network in USA to help to get started, but within 6 months we were both working in teaching, I full-time. my husband part-time while studying for his masters.

I met a lot of Colombians, both in Chicago and in Florida where we lived in USA, with professional degrees from Colombia and as far as I can remember, they weren't too happy about not being able to exercise their professions. A few had been able to revalidate their degrees, but it's often easier to convert intermediate and technical-level studies to foreign equivalencies than the classical Colombian doctor/lawyer/architect/engineer careers most wealthy Colombian families would like their kids to study (or did, before. It seems to be a little more nuanced now).

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Cerealkiller says on Monday March 24th, 2008 14:22:

Perhaps we should consider changing Degrading to Downgrading?

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

Desideria says on Monday March 24th, 2008 14:28:

I have never said it was degrading either. I clean, mend, iron (very badly). cook, cut grass, chop firewood, whatever. Work is just work. A career is something you spend years to study for. Manual labour is sometimes excellent therapy and a great change of pace. But to make a living doing that for other people if you're qualified to do surgery, build bridges, plan communities, teach children, judge, counsel, solve complicated problems? And that's what you'd rather be doing instead?

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

ColombianoGringo says on Monday March 24th, 2008 14:41:

Whether it is degrading depends on the individual. I would imagine that some people would feel degraded by various jobs that others are perfectly happy to do. I personally don't think manual labor is degrading. I would use that term more for a sex industry type job or something like that.

I personally like to do manual work. Even though it would be pretty cheap to just have someone do it, I change my own brake pads and do other maintenance on my truck because I enjoy getting under a car and getting greasy. My dad spent his entire spring break installing molding on every window in their house because he likes doing that kind of work. However, neither one of us would be very happy doing those jobs for a living. I don't think I would feel degraded, but I would be frustrated and unfulfilled.

Alma del Norte says on Monday March 24th, 2008 14:47:

Monpirri - "Ctg Bound, you info sounds correct as well because in the chart listed by Minister of Foreign Affairs in Colombia, they have England with an estimated 90,000 Colombians...

United Kingdom 90,000"

Correctly or incorrectly, in January the Consulate in London told me that there were approx. 200,000 Colombians living in the UK, and that about 10,000 of those were, "legal".

Just telling you what he told me.

Cerealkiller says on Monday March 24th, 2008 14:51:

Alma, I wouldnt be surpised if that was indeed the case. I seem to bump into other Colombians all the time, they all seem to work at EAT...

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

Monpirri says on Monday March 24th, 2008 14:52:

Even in the USA and other developing countries high caliber professionals also find themselves in the same dilemma because not every person who has a degree ends up in the career that they’ve studied.

Does it make sense? Yes, it does because thousands of graduates, doctors, lawyers, writers cannot find said opportunity because, and it’s very simple, there are too many of them in one place, or maybe even worse too many of them in one place where they find themselves without any employment opportunities.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

Ctg Bound says on Monday March 24th, 2008 14:54:

Alma del Norte,

My numbers are from 7 years ago, it could well be up to 200,000 people now.

ColombianoGringo says on Monday March 24th, 2008 14:55:

Wow! 95% of Colombians in the UK live there illegally? Why aren't they able to get asylum visas or whatever the tons of Middle Easterners and Africans use to stay in the UK?

Monpirri says on Monday March 24th, 2008 14:57:

Alma del Norte, I'm not going to argue about what he or she said. Maybe he was in a bad mood or whatever. I just posted the statistics from http://www.migrationinformation.org/Profiles/display.cfm?ID=344 but keep in mind that Registered and Estimated are two diferent figures and give and take a 10% marginal error.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

Cerealkiller says on Monday March 24th, 2008 15:01:

CG I blame that on the fact that the British Govt has nothing to do with the Colombian conflict. They do, however, experience great guilt over the Middle East and Africa...
All irony aside, most Colombians who are in the UK illegally know that the UK gives amnesties every 10 years or so, plus I think visa extensions here are ridiculously expensive. An american friend of mine had to pay 500 pounds just to extend her student visa for 6 months...In addition, getting an asylum visa in the UK has become increasingly difficult and many applicants are put in immigration detention centres (not allowed to go out or any of that stuff) until the government can prove they're legit...

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

Alma del Norte says on Monday March 24th, 2008 15:02:

Yeah, I'm certainly not going to argue with anyone on this, I don't know the facts and as far as I am concerned the more the merrier, just relaying some circumstantial evidence from someone in the know.

I enjoy living in Colombia, so I hope Colombians get something out of living in the UK :)

Ctg Bound says on Monday March 24th, 2008 15:03:

ColombianoGringo,

I doubt that they are, I met many Colombians in London in the late 90s to 2001, only the odd one was there illegaly most had diffrant sorts of visas, I would estimate then that about 10'% of those that I met didn't have the correct paperwork.

They had no need to lie to me and pretend they had visas, as I assisted two of them in getting the correct paperwork.

ColombianoGringo says on Monday March 24th, 2008 15:10:

I have a couple of Aunts with British citizenship, but they have lived there since the sixties and they married Brits so they are a different story.

I can't believe that a six month visa extension costs that much. That is outrageous, especially for a student.

goin_south says on Monday March 24th, 2008 23:17:

carambita!
you guys/gals got alot of time to ... burn!

NO MAS........ MARINERO YERRI'S... ;-(

Colombiche says on Tuesday March 25th, 2008 9:09:

El trabajo no es deshonra, pero muy tenaz uno quemarse las pestañas estudiando para luego terminar la vida lavandole los inodoros a los estadounidenses/canadienses. Mi papa termino sufriendo de Parkinson's a los 50 años posiblemente por trabajar en un ambiente toxico donde inhalaba quimicos peligrosos 9 horas al dia.....

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

Colombiche says on Tuesday March 25th, 2008 9:22:

Siguiendo el Corazon en el Trabajo...


El camino laboral con corazón está construido sobre fortalezas, no sobre debilidades.

Se fluye con él porque vocación y aptitudes parecen haber sido especialmente diseñadas para el trabajo que se está realizando. Tiene corazón porque lo ejecutado en el aquí y en el ahora es un fin en sí mismo y no sólo un medio para lograr otros fines en sitios y tiempos distintos al presente que ahora se vive. Recorriéndolo, se siente que se crece como ser humano y profesional, porque a través del hacer, se es cada vez más.

El buen trabajo, el trabajo con corazón, produce resultados tangibles para los demás; lo que entregamos nos enorgullece, porque sentimos que estamos colaborando a mejorar la condición humana.

¿Es nuestro trabajo un camino con corazón? ¿Lo seguiríamos recorriendo aunque no tuviésemos necesidad de trabajar para vivir?

Si nuestro camino tiene corazón nuestra vida laboral es como una danza, que se baila por el placer de bailar; si no lo tiene, es como una sesión de aeróbicos musicalizados, algo que hacemos para rebajar de peso o fortalecer el músculo cardíaco y no por el placer de bailar. Si nuestro trabajo tiene corazón somos seres humanos afortunados, si no lo tiene debemos abandonarlo antes que él termine con nosotros.

Nuestra mayor obligación laboral es ser fiel a nosotros mismos, aunque para ello tengamos que ser infieles a las expectativas que otros tienen sobre nosotros. Tenemos derecho a expresar a plenitud nuestro ser en un trabajo que nos haga bendecir la vida. Felicidad laboral, en ese contexto, implica estar haciendo lo que haríamos gratis, y tener alguien que encima nos pague por ello.

¿Que no se puede?

Tanto si creemos que podemos, como si creemos que no, estamos en lo cierto porque las posibilidades e imposibilidades radican principalmente en nuestra mente, no en la realidad objetiva del mundo en el que vivimos. Son opiniones sobre nosotros mismos, no realidades objetivas, pero se convierten en ellas al conjuro de las decisiones que surgen de las creencias que tenemos sobre nosotros mismos, y las fronteras que las mismas nos trazan.

Aprendemos con las experiencias de sufrimiento o armonía de nuestra vida cotidiana. Si los resultados son amargos, la experiencia se repetirá hasta que el dolor de la frustración por no ser el que potencialmente somos, nos saturen. Entonces estamos listos para asumir el riesgo de cambiar. Tambien podemos evitar este camino y hacerlo por intencion-propósito-libertad.

Todos nosotros tenemos las llaves de las cerraduras que creemos debemos abrir para convertir nuestros sueños en realidades. Nadie hará por nosotros lo que nosotros no hagamos por nosotros mismos.

Empecemos ahora, trabajando nuestro interior ya mismo !!! mañana puede ser tarde, pues corremos el riesgo de disfrazar de seguridad el temor de asumir el riesgo de ponerle corazón a nuestro camino

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

Desideria says on Tuesday March 25th, 2008 9:32:

Eso lo escribiste tu?
Muy bien, muy bonito y muy poetico.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Colombiche says on Tuesday March 25th, 2008 11:00:

No Desi, me encantaria vanagloriarme de que fui yo quien lo escribio pero no es asi, me lo envio un amigo que me tiene loca tratando de convencerme que me regrese a vivir y a trabajar a colombia.

I just wanted to emphasize how important it is to LOVE and BELIEVE in what you do. Sure, cleaning toilets is not illegal, but it is degrading. Do it for a month or two to get yourself out of a rut (el famoso desvare), but to spend your life cleaning other people's crap cannot be good for the heart and soul!!! Look at my father, almost 20 years doing the work of a poor immigrant inhaling toxic fumes so he could barely feed us and now what does he have? An illness that prevents him from buttoning his own shirt and bringing a spoon to his mouth!!

That is why when I hear that colombian saying "todo trabajo es honrado" I wholeheartedly DISAGREE. Honrado con quien? con la primera persona que hay que ser honrado y respetuoso es con uno mismo!

It's that kind of "todo trabajo es honrado" mentality that keeps us from running at full capacity and settling for eating the scraps that fall off the table. You will never hear a Jew or an educated caucasian saying that, I promise. How can you be happy doing brainless repetitive work that a even an automaton could do when you know you have an IQ of 105+ and an education... the ability to create and contribute much greater things to the world? Spending your life fulfilling just the basic needs (bottom of the pyramid) while foregoing the need for self realization takes a toll on you, it's like spending your life admitting that you are feeble minded and have nothing better to offer.

The obstacles some immigrants face are real, they face many REAL barriers when trying to acquire decent jobs overseas, but I think the most important barriers to overcome are upstairs in our heads.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

Man Tequila says on Tuesday March 25th, 2008 11:34:

It is important to like what you do. I'm lucky, I feel passionate about my work. I know a lot of people, in business, in real estate, in law -- in well-paying jobs, who do not love their job and ultimately believe that it does not make a significant difference.

Si nuestro camino tiene corazón, nuestra vida laboral es como una danza. Perhaps, but even the best jobs have their down sides -- long hours, a degree of compromise and being told what to do. A good job is one that minimizes these features. Dancing is hard on the tendons. ;)

I must say I do not think it is inherently dishonourable to work as a janitor or security guard or bagging groceries. I put myself through school with this type of work. I did see a brighter future for myself and worked hard to do better, It is unfortunate that many jobs don't have much room for deductive or creative thought, which may make them undesirable to many. But not to everyone. I cannot speak for them. Everyone has their own dignity and self-respect and the work needs to satisfy that. I would not work in a mine or in something that would put my own health in jeopardy -- people have a right to safe work.

I think people need a job that they can live with. This involves matching expectation with reality -- if you decide you want to study sociology, all the power to you, but do not be surprised if the world fails to beat down your door. If you are unhappy in your work, you need to overcome the barrier in your head, like you say, and become your own boss or at least find something different or learn new skills.

As for your father, you describe a very frustrating condition. I was disheartened to hear this, since I know how tough Parkinsons can be. Tough on the patient, who is fully aware basic activities become almost impossible, and who understandably becomes frustrated and depressed. Tough on their families who share this frustration, and its many unintended consequences. You have my condolences, there are medicines sometimes helpful, and I hope they may yet give a little help. I am sure you give your father a great deal of comfort and solace; you know we all respect you and you can turn to your friends at PBH if needed.

pues se me antoja que sus cantares son de una tierra desconocida, y yo le dije si a usted le inspira, saber la tierra de donde soy... con mucho gusto y a mucho honor...

Colombiche says on Tuesday March 25th, 2008 12:17:

Thank you so much Man Tequila, he is on a host of meds.... Levodopa/Cinemet. He actually underwent brain surgery almost two years ago, it helped his balance considerably, before the surgery he couldn't even take two steps without falling. Before my father came down with this disease I used to think Parkison's was about old ladies with shaky hands, I didn't realize this disease could actually hit a still fairly young otherwise healthy person and take away their ability to eat a bite without choking, to move their head from one side to the other or to take a step without falling on their face.

On the original topic, when I referred to menial work being frustrating I was specifically referring to those who are educated and qualified for more mentally challenging occupations. How many taxi rides have you taken in Toronto where the cabbie is an Iranian nuclear physicist or a doctor back in Pakistan? I can specifically recall instances of each.

By the same token, I realize there are people who are not educated and might feel fulfilled mopping floors, sincerely more power to them as long as they are content, because ultimately contentment is the GOAL. I also do not look down on people based on what they do... hell, when I work late I love to chat it up with the salvadoran cleaning ladies, I won't even let them bend down to pick up my garbage pail or reclycling bin... I do it myself because when I see them for some reason I picture my mother cleaning up offices.... (which she actually did for years by the way). It's hard to land a job right on Bay street if you don't speak english, don't have a career and have children to feed, so my respects to the senoras.

I also worked all kinds of menial jobs, I worked Mc Donalds, I was a waitress and was a cashier at a grocery store for about 4 years, I think the numerical codes for Bok Choi and urugula are still there somewhere in the back of my brain and I can tell the difference between a cherry tomatoe accent or the feisty slang of the hot house variety (LOL). The important thing is that I saw that as a stepping stone to better things...\\

I also concur that some peopel might be grossing 150K or more and be miserable doing what they do, not everybody was born to wear a suit and tie. The good thing is that when you make that kind of money it's easy to build a stash and branch off in different directions.

Some professionals such as teachers, early childhood educators, social workers might not be making a killing but they might be very fulfilled doing absolutely what they love.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

Man Tequila says on Tuesday March 25th, 2008 13:10:

Well, I have not taken many taxis driven by an underemployed professional from India or Iran. And, to be honest, am of mixed mind about the situation.

Canada has a shortage of doctors and should be doing more to ensure qualified individuals help alleviate this. Lots of immigrants are underemployed and there are obstacles that stop them from doing more productive work.

I believe governments are finally giving this issue more respect. I know professional societies, including many medical associations, are finally coming around, I can understand that immigrants feel otherwise.

The other side of the coin is that people often exaggerate their qualifications, even taxi drivers -- people take these claims at face value, but a driver might well win more respect or a bigger tip with this sort of story, Getting into medical schools in a few countries really is just a matter of knowing the right people. It is not unreasonable for doctors to undergo reasonable tests to measure their knowledge and qualifications, and I would have to do this myself were I to emigrate to countries (though for Canadian schools this is waived for several countries, including Ireland, the UK, Australia, NZ, rural parts of the US...)

I did my residency in Eastern Canada, where there is a big need for doctors. Lots of foreign-trained doctors do work in Canada, and it is easier for them to get work in rural areas where the shortages are more acute. So I have worked with dozens of foreign trained residents and doctors, and from my experience believe that they tend to be either very good or very bad. Not all of them are up to snuff. I also don't believe it would be hard for foreign doctor with the right skills to land a decent job in a pharmaceutical company or other position. This may not be right, but a taxi driver? I'm not sure the barriers are that insurmountable. If you go to Northern BC, Newfoundland or Nunavut, emigrant doctors form a majority.

pues se me antoja que sus cantares son de una tierra desconocida, y yo le dije si a usted le inspira, saber la tierra de donde soy... con mucho gusto y a mucho honor...

Man Tequila says on Tuesday March 25th, 2008 13:18:

Though my views are biased since the people I know were integrated into the system. This is not always so easy, but I think is slowly becoming better. Most Canadians do believe immigrants make our country better, an opinion not so widely held in the US.

We agree it is nice to love what you do, and if you do not to try to improve things, I sometimes kick myself for not going into pediatrics, though get solace as kids made up 40% or so of my work anyway. I wouldn't mind being a teacher.

pues se me antoja que sus cantares son de una tierra desconocida, y yo le dije si a usted le inspira, saber la tierra de donde soy... con mucho gusto y a mucho honor...

webmanco says on Tuesday March 25th, 2008 22:26:

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

Monpirri says on Wednesday March 26th, 2008 6:21:

Cuybiche, it's possible that you see yourself as being a very funny individual?

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

Man Tequila says on Wednesday March 26th, 2008 10:08:

Frankly, how you get that from someone discussing serious medical problems in their family is beyond me. Is it that hard to believe some people love their job?

pues se me antoja que sus cantares son de una tierra desconocida, y yo le dije si a usted le inspira, saber la tierra de donde soy... con mucho gusto y a mucho honor...

Colombiche says on Wednesday March 26th, 2008 10:29:

There are things you joke about and things you don't joke about.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

Desideria says on Wednesday March 26th, 2008 10:55:

Monpirri, who are referring to with that name?

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Monpirri says on Wednesday March 26th, 2008 11:31:

Cuybiche, now I get it you are so funnny jajajajajajaja

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

Colombiche says on Wednesday March 26th, 2008 11:34:

Is it me or are you guys insensitive jerks?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

Desideria says on Wednesday March 26th, 2008 12:08:

You guys lost me here....
what's the joke?

Webmanco?

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Man Tequila says on Wednesday March 26th, 2008 12:08:

I hope I'm not included in that. I think Monpirri is out of line, and out of touch. It is hard to believe people like Mona mistook him for someone with manners and a small degree of courtesy. Webmanco just confuses me.

pues se me antoja que sus cantares son de una tierra desconocida, y yo le dije si a usted le inspira, saber la tierra de donde soy... con mucho gusto y a mucho honor...

Cerealkiller says on Wednesday March 26th, 2008 12:16:

Surely, there must be some sort of misunderstanding here...I hope so anyway.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

Colombiche says on Wednesday March 26th, 2008 12:18:

Por supuesto que no Man Tequila, you are far from insensitive.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

El Polo says on Wednesday March 26th, 2008 12:23:

I dont get the joke neither, must be an inside joke.

Desideria says on Wednesday March 26th, 2008 12:34:

Monpirri is calling names, but is he calling colombiche or webmanco "cuybiche"?

What do webmanco's pictures with donkeys have to do with this topic?

Why is colombiche so offended?

I think she was making a brilliant point of why people should not settle for a degrading or meaningless job when they have a university career and I can understand her sorrow seeing her father in that situation, but how is this related to what has been going on after that? Please somebody help me?

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

msaucey says on Wednesday March 26th, 2008 12:37:

Okay.... So, I have obviously not contributed my 2 cents... It’s time for my words of wisdom, or rubbish, however you interpret….

There are various situations described above that I don't believe everyone is taking that in to full consideration....

There are a variation of immigrants, and based on how they enter a country will give you a better idea as to the jobs they end up possessing.

Legal Immigrant – Enters the host country with permission, with language skill suitable to the host country (or minimal enough to get by)
Illegal Immigrant – No documentation to work in new country, no language skill

A lot of people leave Colombia because of the lack of suitable employment. There are tons of educated (university graduates) that struggle to get a job in their field in Colombia and then if you’re looking for a decent wage, that’s a different obstacle. This I say from experience, since I have cousins and friends that are constantly looking for a job. So, they will try and get out of the country legally, if that fails, their alternative option is illegally.

The factor that everyone wants to take care of their family is a HUGE factor. So, if a person that holds a degree is under pressure to start making money to send back to their home country, but if they entered the country illegally there options are extremely limited. They will take whatever job they can with as little paperwork as possible! As demeaning as cleaning someone else’s toilet may sound to some, it makes perfect sense to others. Why? Most of those jobs make about $350-650 a week to start (this of course may be skewed sin I live in L.A.), which is a good start for an immigrant and more then they would make in their profession back at home. (The Spellings [Aaron] butler makes $125K a year) That’s how it is interpreted in their minds. A lot of the people that work these jobs encourage and push their children to take advantage of any opportunity that is provided so that they don’t have to go through the same or similar challenges they’ve encountered.

MT - There is a high demand for doctors, I think pretty much everywhere, educational costs in the US to practice medicine is absurd! Most tend to be $400K in the whole by the time they’re done with med school and then have to worry about malpractice policies that cost about $100K a year (again info may be skewed, information from friends in L.A. that finished med school)

Colombiche, I thank you for sharing your story and completely sympathize, there is no joke in your story.

Okay, I’m starving need food before I pass out…. I’m sure I’ve made no sense!

Where’s Elmo with his insight. I’m sure he could turn this thread around in no time!

The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. - CS Lewis

Colombiche says on Wednesday March 26th, 2008 12:39:

Desi...I am far from being offended, I just thought the tone of the thread was serious and I found the jokes that followed silly.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

webmanco says on Wednesday March 26th, 2008 12:44:

The pictures do reference to the saying working like a burro, that is all, there is not any joke about it, and it is not related whatsoever to your participation on the thread.

No soy indolente.

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

Colombiche says on Wednesday March 26th, 2008 12:45:

Fresco, todo bien, lo que no entiendo es a quien le estan diciendo cuybiche y porque.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

Desideria says on Wednesday March 26th, 2008 12:49:

Okay...que eso te lo explique Monpirri. Porque yo tampoco sé...pienso que el está diciendo cuybiche a webmanco creyendo que está diciendo cuybiche a tí. Pero de acuerdo, ya entiendo.

Webmanco, it's ok.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Colombiche says on Wednesday March 26th, 2008 12:56:

K..... gotta go home and recharge the one neuron I have left.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

MitchAlvarez says on Wednesday March 26th, 2008 18:14:

el que critica el trabajo de un rebusacador berraco, humilde, y trabajador no merece el respeto ni de su madre. que interesante es ver a veces las barbaridades que salen de gente que se cree mas que los demas.

Tengale miedo a una huelga de mujeres o a una escacez de aguardiente. :)

Colombiche says on Wednesday March 26th, 2008 19:05:

Yo no me creo mas que nadie, porque he trabajado trapeando pisos, vendiendo hamburguesas y lavando platos.... simplemente comento que en muchos casos es frustrante para una persona profesional tener que someterse a sobrevivir recogiendo la basura de otra gente... ademas de ser un desperdicio de su talento. Si no merezco ni el respeto de mi madre por decir lo que pienso, pues asi sea.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

MaFe says on Thursday March 27th, 2008 11:40:

MitchAlvarez says on Wednesday March 26th, 2008 18:14:

"el que critica el trabajo de un rebusacador berraco, humilde, y trabajador no merece el respeto ni de su madre. que interesante es ver a veces las barbaridades que salen de gente que se cree mas que los demas."

WOW PAISITA...very well put! I think I will find you, treat you to a drink and give you a big kiss...very well put!

"No comment" is a splendid expression. I am using it again and again." -Winston Churchill

MitchAlvarez says on Thursday March 27th, 2008 14:56:

colombiche no te lo tire a ti. pero cuidado que por ahi dicen que el que se encuentre un guante que se lo achante.

Tengale miedo a una huelga de mujeres o a una escacez de aguardiente. :)

ColombianoGringo says on Thursday March 27th, 2008 15:10:

Nadie esta criticando el a la gente trabajadora. Eso se ha enfatizado ya varias veces en este tópico. El tema se trata de gente profesional quienes se conforman con trabajos para los cuales son sobrecalificados solo por ser inmigrantes legales.

"que interesante es ver a veces las barbaridades que salen de gente"

De acuerdo. Como los que llegan a un topico a insultar.

webmanco says on Thursday March 27th, 2008 17:11:

Es que somos bastante sensibles

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

MaFe says on Friday March 28th, 2008 15:53:

ColombianoGringo says on Thursday March 27th, 2008 15:10:

Nadie esta criticando el a la gente trabajadora. Eso se ha enfatizado ya varias veces en este tópico. El tema se trata de gente profesional quienes se conforman con trabajos para los cuales son sobrecalificados solo por ser inmigrantes legales.

I think we all understand this, but again- a lot of immigrants don't learn the language, have to convert their degrees to their host countries, get licensed...it's difficult. Sometimes they find other jobs that pay them a lot more than what they made in their countries.

We are all giving our views, but again has anyone thought that some of these people are happy?

On my way back from Colombia, I met a lady who used to be a doctor in Colombia. She lives in NY, with her husband who was a doctor in Santo Domingo. In the middle of the flight, the flight attendant asked if there were any doctor's. She volunteered, showed her doctor card. When she came back I asked her why she does the work she does now, and not practice medicine. She explained that she had to take a few classes to convert her medical degree. Once she was done with that she had to get her license, and she failed the first 2 times. She said she decided not to do it, and has no regrets, is very happy, and loves life.

"No comment" is a splendid expression. I am using it again and again." -Winston Churchill

kat1 says on Friday March 28th, 2008 15:56:

I remember reading an article similar to this one ages and ages ago called " cerebros Fugados" it was exactly the same.

webmanco says on Thursday April 3rd, 2008 11:00:

http://www.inverpoint.com/noticias-sector/juridicas-economia-negocios/...

El crecimiento de la inmigración es una pieza cada vez más importante para explicar el fenómeno emprendedor en España. La presencia de extranjeros emprendedores sigue incrementándose progresivamente y es un 9,4% superior a la de 2006. El 12,8% del total de la actividad emprendedora en fase incipiente registrada en 2007 correspondió a iniciativas puestas en marcha por extranjeros, una cifra que duplica el 5,7% registrado en 2005 y superior al 11,7% de 2006.

La población extranjera, según los autores del Informe GEM, es proporcionalmente “más emprendedora que la española� y dentro del colectivo inmigrante los que están en régimen general de permanencia son más emprendedores que los comunitarios. El emprendedor extranjero es más joven que el español, especialmente el de régimen general, pues a partir de 2006, la edad media de los comunitarios supera a la de los españoles

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am