Colombian union members are killed at a rate of almost one per week.

bamacellist says on Feb 16, 2008, 08:12:

"Dan Kovalik: 'First of all, let me make clear that we oppose this FTA now, this year and in the future...' "

That's really the bottom line. The AFL-CIO doesn't give a rat's ass about Colombian union members or workers, nor about considering the longer-term ramifications for Americans, the economy or the actual well-being of its own members or future membership, apart from protecting current members and their jobs, at whatever cost. While the treaties and the security problems offer plenty of meat to chew on, the myopia and disingenuousness of the AFL-CIO don't afford them any credibility at all in the debate.

"The future is much like the present, only longer."

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slguy says on Feb 16, 2008, 08:23:

You know, I'd on occasion be tempted to give a Democrat a fair listen, if they weren't all kissing the asses of the American labor movement. This Dan Kovalik guy is emblematic of exactly why it would never occur to me to listen intently to any Democrat. Arrogant SOB.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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juancegomez says on Feb 16, 2008, 08:32:

With all due respect, putting aside other aspects and issues which have been previously addressed here or elsewhere....

"Colombian union members are killed at a rate of almost one per week."

In terms of what we've seen during this particular fragment of the year, as a longer, different version of this latest report shows. That's where they got that phrase from.

Still, since there are ~52 weeks in a year, the resulting total would actually represent a significant reduction compared to those seen a few years ago.

In reality, the most recent numbers are closer to ~70 deaths a year, which is higher than that rate, but still lower than the over 100 totals seen previously.

Not that even one union death is a positive thing at all, in any way, shape or form, mind you...nor am I a fan of the current FTA in itself, regardless of this issue.

But again...most of that has been discussed before.

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sloopskipper says on Feb 16, 2008, 10:28:

Unions also helped make American manufacturing, as well as providing living wages, and endurable working conditions and hours. But eventually, as you say, they did strangle industry, as they kept squeezing, more and more.

You can not pay brain surgeon wages & benefits for someone to put wheel covers on a Buick, when someone else can do it as well, or better, for MUCH less.

However, in Latin America the unions can be as corrupt as the governments.

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miamimike says on Feb 16, 2008, 11:52:

IMO the American Auto Industry went down the Tubes but much more was at play then the Unions. The CEOs & Beancounters make the decisions of what Product lines come online and they have made a LOT of errors in recent years. Americans want smaller fuel efficient cars yet the CEOs gave their approval to keep cranking out these Gas Guzzling SUVs. Why NO Fuel efficient Diesel Vehicles or a Diesel Hybrid? When Mercedes announced a few months back that they were taking $99 Downpayment Deposits on the Little Smart Car, a line stretched as far as to China for those waiting to plunk down their Moola. If the CEOs of USA Carmakers listened to the buying public, maybe they wouldn't be in this position. Harley Davidson Motorcycles is all Union yet seems to be doing just fine, could it be they are producing Machines the people want,,,So by the same measure, should the Union Alone get All the Credit for Harley's Sucess?

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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sloopskipper says on Feb 16, 2008, 12:49:

I am not so sure they made errors. Weren,t they making what the public wanted? Forgetting the gas lines, they wanted, and bought, rediculus Hummers and Expeditions. They automakers couldn't make them big enough, or guzzling enough fuel.

Maybe NOW they want fuel efficiency, AGAIN, that gas prices are through the roof.

Harley? They would be a distant memory, if not for the government.

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sloopskipper says on Feb 16, 2008, 13:06:

But, I must agree that the companies were pushing the higher volume trucks.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Feb 16, 2008, 15:05:

What's always missing in these numbers about how many union members are killed is the key detail of whether they were killed FOR BEING union members or not. A lot of people of all different stripes get murdered. For example, I'm willing to venture that about 15% of all murder victims are left-handed, which doesn't mean they were killed for being lefties.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 16, 2008, 17:15:

Good point, Mr. H. Last time I checked, Colombia had a murder rate of about 40 per 100K. If union members are killed at 52 per year, then to match the murder rate of the rest of Colombians there must be 125K union members. According to the Escuela Nacional Sindical, there are about 840K union members. So the murder rate of a union member in Colombia is actually lower than that of the average Colombian. I'm surprised Uribe doesn't use these stats to push for FTA.

On the other hand, I don't think the issue is how many union members are being killed, but the fact that they are being targeted by right-wing militias that are supposed to be inexistent.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 16, 2008, 17:23:

Here's an informative link:

http://www.ens.org.co/aa/img_upload/40785cb6c10f663e3ec6ea7ea03aaa15/I...

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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slguy says on Feb 16, 2008, 17:55:

I'm not sure that I ever heard anyone here claim that there are no rightwing paras in existence in Colombia. I did hear a rumor that AUC demobilized as an organized force, unlike the former leftwing narcoterrorists....

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Mr. Hollywood says on Feb 16, 2008, 18:02:

I've heard the FARC targets union members sometimes, too.

Again, I'd really like to know how many union members were killed specifically for their union activism, as opposed to people who were killed for some reason who also happened to have union membership.

Sr. T. I like your calculation. Apparently everyone in Colombia needs to rush to join a union for safety.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 16, 2008, 18:13:

Mr. H: Check the linked document. There are some answers (from the unions themselves, though) to your questions.

"Apparently everyone in Colombia needs to rush to join a union for safety."

Unions should use these stats to increase their membership rate (a meager 4%). Uribe should use it to get his damn FTA. It's a win-win situation ;)

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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slguy says on Feb 16, 2008, 18:50:

I can't believe I'm saying this, given my union experiences here in the US, but real collective bargaining would be a wonderful thing for Colombia, in the short run, at least. I hope it comes to pass, some day.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Robert Jorge says on Feb 16, 2008, 20:19:

I love numbers: So, one could accurately state that a Colombian union member is 6 times LESS likely to be murdered than the average Colombian in a year. Someone Email Uribe and Bush this stat.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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slguy says on Feb 16, 2008, 20:53:

I like the way you think, RJ. ;)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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bamacellist says on Feb 16, 2008, 21:14:

From El Heraldo, 2/16:

http://www.elheraldo.com.co/ELHERALDO/BancoConocimiento/L/locondenan__...

"The future is much like the present, only longer."

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Robert Jorge says on Feb 16, 2008, 22:09:

We are usually on the same wave-length slguy.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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hongo_joe says on Feb 17, 2008, 15:50:

Mr Hollywood. According to a document apparently from the PRESIDENCY OF THE REPUBLIC OF COLOMBIA COMMUNICATIONS DEPARTMENT, the number of union members murdered (because of their union membership) were
2005 - 14
2006 - 25
2007 (Jan - Aug) - 6 (compared with 15 for the same period in 2006)


www.presidencia.gov.co/resultados/ingles/2007/victimas_9.pdf

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juancegomez says on Feb 18, 2008, 14:13:

If I recall correctly, the government figures for this particular matter separate (unionized) teachers from union members per se, which is apparently what leads to the (main) difference between their numbers and those of, say, the ENS.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Feb 18, 2008, 15:36:

Well, I'd really like to see more effort in Colombia toward making the prosecution of ALL murders a very real and credible threat. Right now it seems like there's still too much impunity, regardless of whether the victims are union members or not.

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slguy says on Feb 18, 2008, 16:03:

Bingo,. Hollywood.

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gatogris says on Feb 18, 2008, 16:13:

I wonder if the fact that Colombia has the lowest rate of unionized workers in all of Latin America (lower than the banana republics, yep) has anything to do with historical targeting of union members. For how many years do you have to intimidate and murder before the numbers necessary to intimidate and murder to make your point start to go down. Maybe until 2007...

Wasn't there a masacre of incipiently unionizing banana workers somewhere way back when...

Naaaaaah. That's got nothing to do with this.

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juancegomez says on Feb 18, 2008, 16:14:

Yeah, no real question there.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Feb 18, 2008, 16:23:

I dunno how that would explain away everything, Gatogris, there's been plenty of intimidation and murder in other corners of Latin America, too. Yet people seem to have pretty infinite reserves of courage for facing up to that kind of thing.

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Robert Jorge says on Feb 20, 2008, 00:55:

Medo - you are trully a wierdo.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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