Colombian paramilitary warlords extradited

kalder says on May 13, 2008, 06:43:

Wondeful news. I saw that evil bastard Jorge 40 on TV last year. I hope you Yanks lock him and the others up for a thousand years in a windowless concrete tomb.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

kalder says on May 13, 2008, 06:45:

This is one of the reasons I'm pro-US. At least there's one place in the world with the will, muscle and sense of justice to give squalid gangsters like those mentioned above their just desserts.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

webmanco says on May 13, 2008, 06:47:

Don´t be so trusting, the USA negotiates with high profile criminals, in other words they can too be bought. A few millions of dollars, 200 more low key colombians to extradite, and those above mentionate could do 5 years and been granted USA citizenship.

Just feeding the so called "war on drugs" what a drama. And most people are buying it.

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

slguy says on May 13, 2008, 06:50:

yep - carlos lehder bought his way out, didn't he? ;)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

Tinto (Moderator) says on May 13, 2008, 06:55:

That's a big news story -- sending the top AUC guys to the Hotel California. I suppose it's good since Colombia cannot control them but the skeptic in me says there are more angles. On the trade agreement front, is it part of a deal to placate US congressional Democrats and their union donors? On the Colombian politics front, does it remove some political heat from Uribe. Nice job perk to be able to silence your accusers by sending them to a foreign jail.

Re Lehder - it's all kind of murky, but isn't one of the semi-informed theories that he provided enough information to go after Noriega, so the US eventually just let him go (probably after creating a new identity for him).

webmanco says on May 13, 2008, 06:58:

yep - carlos lehder bought his way out, didn't he? ;)

I would not doubt it, as a matther of fact he might be a PBH member posting from Germany, or a fince in Eje Cafetero :-)

War on drugs another way of selling Colombia.

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

webmanco says on May 13, 2008, 07:06:

And a way to try to justify taxes, a job "well done"

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

cali373 says on May 13, 2008, 07:32:

I am not sure I understand how the war on drugs is another way of selling Colombia. What is selling Colombia mean anyway? Trade? investment? what?

Smile if you are a thinker!

cali373 says on May 13, 2008, 07:38:

Regardless if the US negotiates with criminals, THIS IS A GOOD THING! And I have to say that I am completely surprised that Uribe allowed this but it does help to distance himself from the para-politica.

It includes Mancuso! we are talking about a terrorist that was allowed to address the Colombian congress while being wanted by Colombian and US justice.

So Colombia is not burdened with the costs and agony of keeping these narco-terrorists behind bars (hey i did not make up that term).

I have to say this is an extreme milestone for Colombia.

Smile if you are a thinker!

CatGirl says on May 13, 2008, 07:39:

Webman: "the USA negotiates with high profile criminals, in other words they can too be bought"

I too was thinking on similar lines when I saw the word "extradicted".....taken already from behind bars.

Tinto "sending the top AUC guys to the Hotel California. I suppose it's good since Colombia cannot control them but the skeptic in me says there are more angles"

True many career criminals do alot of work from behind bars, but again it simply sounds like rationale they are presenting to the public for this action. They were sent to Federal prision's in the EEUU? Not clear why they picked these cities? A bit of a contradiction to their rationale? Oh! maybe it was for the prosecutor's convenience? jajaj I see!
I wonder, if these "notorious" people were transferred to Federal prisions in cities that have a larger population of Colombian residents, would they find more support from behind bars and still be able to conduct their business? Hey! they might be considered heros in a Florida Federal Detention Center for all I know! Miami? NY? Come on!!
I'd transfer them to Walla Walla or somewhere else if the motive is to control their ability to keep business going......fishy
Oh - well what do I know. Maybe you guys have a better perspective on this one.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

cali373 says on May 13, 2008, 07:41:

Can they REALLY be silenced simply by sending them to jail in the US? I am sure they would have access to lawyers that can provide information.

Access to lawyers? Damn I forgot about the Patriot Act. Well then Tinto is correct. they are pretty much silenced.

Smile if you are a thinker!

webmanco says on May 13, 2008, 07:41:

Cali373
I am completely surprised that Uribe allowed this but it does help to distance himself from the para-politica.


I am not that much surprise,

Mi alma se la vendo al diablo.

As stated before many negotiations are done before taking most high profile extraditions.

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

Tinto (Moderator) says on May 13, 2008, 07:42:

I'm guessing they were transported to the various cities depending on which federal judicial district made the indictments and/or requests for extraditions.

CatGirl says on May 13, 2008, 07:43:

Webman: Negotiations are done before taking most high profile extraditions

Maybe this is the root of it all.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

webmanco says on May 13, 2008, 07:44:

Belisario Betancourt betrayed his friend and first colombian extradited, why not other Presidents do the same, in the name of War on Drugs.

Mi alma se la vendo al diablo.

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

Tinto (Moderator) says on May 13, 2008, 07:45:

Cali371 - By "silenced" I mean less vocal, less access to their minions, less access to the Colombian media and less of a threat to Uribe & Co.

Unlike Colombia, I doubt they will have cell phones, laptops with internet access, and visiting hours with prostitutes when they check into the federal holding facility. I believe Mancuso was even running a personal website from prison. They will, however, have defense lawyers and maybe even some sympathizers who can advocate on their behalf without getting killed (Ricardo Palmera swayed some US-based NGOs and after two or three trials with two or three hung juries the prosecution dropped the drug charges against him. He's still in the slammer for a LONG time on conspiracy to kidnap).

CatGirl says on May 13, 2008, 07:50:

Tinto: I'm guessing they were transported to the various cities depending on which federal judicial district made the indictments and/or requests for extraditions.

Yes, I jumped the gun there - But since this is a Federal matter.....I would hope there is more "flex" on what can be done when they have completed the charges and these guys are transferred to other facilities that are much more benign.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

cali373 says on May 13, 2008, 07:53:

Who did Betancur betray? I mean besides the entire UP (patriotic union) party.

Smile if you are a thinker!

Desideria (Moderator) says on May 13, 2008, 08:07:

I didn't know Lehder was released. Is it official? Or just a rumour?

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

Tinto (Moderator) says on May 13, 2008, 08:10:

Desi, I think it's a rumor, but apparently he doesn't show up in official prison databases so the theories abound.

buggy says on May 13, 2008, 08:15:

The opinion of a reader of "El Espectador":

"Desde mi óptica de simple ciudadano, !no entiendo!. Para demostrar el Gobierno que en nuestro país SI HAY JUSTICIA, saca a los que delinquen en Colombia para que los juzguen en otro país? Acaso eso no es confesar la incompetencia que tenemos como Estado para hacerlo aquí en Colombia. Acaso, aquí no existían jueces probos para juzgar a estos "señores"? No es una contradicción que quienes defienden el régimen digan que hay que dejar que la justicia opere, que hay que rodear a la administración de justicia en su papel de juzgar, que hay que brindarle todas las garantías y llegan y les sacan para otro país a quienes eventualmente podrían juzgar, así sea por vía de casación? PREGUNTO: Tiene la justicia gringa competencia para juzgar a los paracos extraditados por las masacres cometidas contra numerosos compatriotas? Entiendo que la competencia se limita únicamente a juzgarlos por surtir el voraz apetito de los depravados norteamericanos que cada vez llenan más sus narices y sus venas de droga. Y entonces, los familiares de las víctimas que quedan aquí QUE?. Lo que observo es que a nuestro ilustre presidente, le interesa más la suerte y los intereses de los gringos, que los de nuestros hermanos colombianos. Y lo más fregado, es que todas estas medidas; que todas estas cosas se hacen como las acostumbran hacer la mayoría de los delincuentes: en la noche. Amparados en la complicidad de la oscuridad. caliche"

“Ojos y oídos para Norteamérica / para su propio pueblo, sordo y ciego" Pablo Neruda

ColombianoGringo says on May 13, 2008, 08:22:

From El Tiempo

"Fuentes cercanas al Gobierno afirman que una vez llegó al aeropuerto de Catam, procedente de Barranquilla, Rodrigo Tovar Pupo, 'Jorge 40', comenzó a lanzar palabras soeces contra el Ejecutivo y gritó "Nos traicionaron, h.p...."

This says that upon arriving at the Catam airbase, jorge 40 started freaking out and screaming "They betrayed us. HP..."

If you don't know what HP means, well...

It's hilarious to see this piece of garbage freaking out from complete desperation. His plans to keep running his criminal activities and retiring on a nice finca disappeared in an instant before his eyes. Here is to sixty years of contemplation. Sixty years of frustration and regret. Cheers motherfucker.

juancegomez says on May 13, 2008, 08:22:

I do suppose that, in part, this was done in order to reduce internal and international pressure, in several ways.

Well, at the very least this takes care of the whole "why aren't they extraditing the paramilitaries too" complaint. It's not like nobody had ever mentioned it, let's not pretend. Sometime ago, it wasn't uncommon to hear or read about it.

From that point of view, it's "bad if you do it, bad if you don't do it", I guess.

Now, it's up to their victims to follow them and use all the available means of judicial cooperation and U.S. law to prosecute them there, as soon as possible, so that they aren't only prosecuted of drug-related charges.

In a way, that is indeed a bad sign in terms of Colombian sovereignty, admittedly, and I would have preferred either no extraditions or a more gradual process, but it may allow for better judicial cases in the long run, if more charges can be raised against them other than just drug dealing. We'll see.

I think webmanco's fears aren't completely unsubstantiated, in concept, but I do feel they are much exaggerated at this point. Even if there are negotiations, their outcome will not be identical and won't always be significantly positive for the criminal. Unless you own a crystal ball or privileged information, it's a bit of a leap to say they'll only be five years in jail and will be granted citizenship.

juancegomez says on May 13, 2008, 08:41:

About Lehder, taking this with a grain of salt, as it's Wikipedia, and I don't know how true it may be...

"According to journalist and author Tamara S. Inscoe-Johnson, who worked on the Lehder defense during the time in question, Lehder was simply transferred to another prison and has continued to be held in WITSEC, which is the Bureau of Prisons' version of the federal Witness Protection Program.

Inscoe-Johnson argued that Lehder had not been released, despite Internet rumors to the contrary. Inscoe-Johnson's work on Lehder entitled "Norman's Cay: The True Story of Carlos Lehder and the Medellin Cartel", details why the author believes that Lehder will never be released. Allegedly, Lehder would be privy to secret information regarding the CIA's and his own involvement in the Iran-Contra affair.

Carlos Lehder's ongoing legal battles confirm Lehder remains imprisoned in the US, and that he is not likely to be released anytime soon. On July 22, 2005 he appeared in the US Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit to contest his sentence. Lehder appeared pro se, arguing that the United States failed to perform its obligations under a cooperation agreement he had entered into with the United States Attorney's Office, after he held up his end of the deal. (United States v. Lehder-Rivas, 136 Fed. Appx. 324; 2005). In May 2007, he requested the Colombian Supreme Court to order the Colombian government to request from the United States his release because of the violations of his cooperation agreement."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Lehder#Capture.2C_trial_and_wherea...

Tinto (Moderator) says on May 13, 2008, 08:52:

Well, if he appeared pro se and there are witnesses or a transcript, I guess that pretty much settles the question about whether he's still in custody. Thanks for the updated information.

Desideria (Moderator) says on May 13, 2008, 09:02:

Ok. Thanx guys.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

jaramillo says on May 13, 2008, 09:20:

Three possible scenarios:

1-If paracos go about free, it is because Uribe is doing business with them.
2-If they are in prison in Colombia (until today) it is because Uribe has been protecting them and keeping them in luxury.
3-If they are extradited, it is because Uribe wants to hide the truth that implicates him.

it is all Uribe's fault. Death to Uribe!

juancegomez says on May 13, 2008, 09:33:

On the other hand...interpretations of the motives aside, something else that isn't as clear cut is this:

What will happen to the newly formed (or never demobilized, depending on each case) "criminal gangs"?

This is hardly the end of paramilitarism in Colombia, to say the least, but if these individuals were in fact continuing to commit crimes, as several indications seemed to show, they might as well order their subordinates to unleash hell as a response. I would be very cautious.

jaramillo says on May 13, 2008, 09:35:

Noriega got a 30 year sentence and he's paid about 20 so far. Who actually spends 20 years in prison in Colombia?

Now juance, you know perfectly well what will happen. These HPs will be rapidly replaced by some (HPs) squared.

durito says on May 13, 2008, 09:36:

That's what I'm wondering as well.

There's been much speculation that Don Berna had ordered his people to stop killing in Medellin, which was partly to account for the reduction in violence here. What happens now?

juancegomez says on May 13, 2008, 09:47:

We'll see, durito.

jaramillo: That part is easy enough, but I'm more worried about what they will do in response to the extraditions, not about the figureheads who will be eventually replaced, peacefully or otherwise.

Simon says on May 13, 2008, 09:58:

WAY TO GO PRESIDENT URIBE!!

That's my President!!

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

ColombianoGringo says on May 13, 2008, 10:03:

It's noon in Bogota. Any live feeds of Uribe's speech?

Mononoke28 says on May 13, 2008, 10:08:

I think this is great news. The fact that they were still doing business behind bars since 2003 thinking that the government was going to sit around and watch cracks me up. They violated the pact so now they need to man up.

I just hope they get to share a cell with a horny tranny named Bertha who will show them what love is all about. I love this!

Diana

slguy says on May 13, 2008, 10:22:

my lehder remark was pure sarcasm, in response to webmanco's impugning our federal justice system. lehder's still behind bars.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

Tinto (Moderator) says on May 13, 2008, 10:30:

Insightful comment above about what happens next with security. We'll find out soon if the state has control of Medellin and Antioquia or if it was just a lull in the war and the paracos are still in charge.

I know where UtopiaCowboy stands on the issue... we'll see if he's right.

dogfart says on May 13, 2008, 10:34:

Im not too versed in South American politics, let alone Colombian.
But isn`t true that when someone does something wrong, goes to jail?
Interesting what this guy jeremillo says. There will always be people who disapprove, no matter what the outcome is, what a president does. Who cares about them, probably a bunch of hippies.

ColombianoGringo says on May 13, 2008, 10:40:

df,

There was a special negotiated settlement between the government and the paras that provided for very short prison sentences if the paras demobilized, cooperated with investigations and stopped committing crimes. The paras essentially did not live up to the agreement and consequently, this gave the government a reason to extradite them.

CatGirl says on May 13, 2008, 10:47:

lol - Holy Cow CG - you didn't skip a beat on that handle. It makes one think of many senses on multiple levels - jajajaja (df)

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

slguy says on May 13, 2008, 11:05:

prolly not a great handle for a thinskinned individual...

http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/post/hiking-to-la-ciudad-perdid---whe...

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

ColombianoGringo says on May 13, 2008, 11:13:

Well CG, there are lots of people around with odd or silly handles. I don't really read too much into them.

For example, you certainly didn't turn out to be what I would have expected from a "CatGirl". That conjures up visions of a homebody spinster, which you certainly don't appear to be. I'm complementing you by the way ;)

Mr. Hollywood says on May 13, 2008, 12:04:

Nice work, Uribe.

Another blow to impunity. I hope those paracos enjoy Leavenworth.

buggy says on May 13, 2008, 12:45:

La extradición de los sicarios
Del ventilador a la caja negra

César Jerez
Agencia Prensa Rural

Con la matutina extradición de hoy de 14 capos del narcotráfico y de los escuadrones de la muerte se confirma que la “justicia negociada� de los EU es el eslabón que cierra la larga cadena de mecanismos de impunidad que garantizan la perdurabilidad de las prácticas de terrorismo de estado y del estado mafioso en Colombia.

La extradición de los servidores del paramilitarismo de Estado impide que se establezca la verdad y se haga justicia por los crímenes de lesa humanidad cometidos. Están matando o se están llevando a todos los testigos.Finalmente los asesinos solo enfrentarán cargos por narcotráfico y negociaran sus penas a cambio de información. La intencionalidad de la extradición es obvia: impedir que los sicarios terminen de vincular a los autores intelectuales de la guerra sucia en Colombia: políticos, militares y empresarios nacionales y multinacionales.

La extradición se complementa con un sofisma de distracción. De un lado, se trata de apagar el “ventilador� de las versiones libres de los paramilitares que tienen en la cárcel a decenas de congresistas uribistas y que habían empezado parcialmente a revelar el escabroso concubinato sicarial-estatal que permitió que decenas de miles de colombianos fueran asesinados durante los últimos 28 años. De otro lado, se busca construir una cortina de humo continental que vinculen con las FARC a los gobiernos de Nicaragua, Ecuador, Venezuela y eventualmente Paraguay, para hacer ver a las administraciones progresistas de Latinoamérica como regímenes al servicio del terrorismo y el narcotráfico.

Los computadores portátiles que resisten bombardeos en acciones ilegales por fuera del país y otros supuestamente incautados a los guerrilleros sin ninguna cadena de custodia configuran una enorme “caja negra� de donde salen acusaciones contra todo aquel que no sea uribista o no comparta los intereses de los EU: liberales de piel negra, ex –guerrilleros, parlamentarios, conversos, miembros de la corte, facilitadores de acuerdos humanitarios, mediadores de paz, dirigentes sociales, defensores de derechos humanos, víctimas y los presidentes de los países mencionados.

La “caja negra� tiene en los grandes medios de comunicación colombianos, gringos y españoles (El País, The Washington Post, El Tiempo, Caracol, etc.) una caja de resonancia mucha más grande y negra que prepara a la “opinión� para la radicalización de las agresiones contra el gobierno de Chávez y la instalación de una base militar de los EU en Colombia, que se trasladaría de Manta, Ecuador a la Guajira, en la frontera con Venezuela.

Tan pronto se supo de la extradición de los sicarios, el corifeo locutor Darío Arizmendi, de Caracol Radio, una empresa del grupo español Prisa, se apresuraba a manifestar que el hecho “da entender que ninguna banda delincuencial puede más que la justicia�. Después de catalogar de ingeniosa la decisión, anunciaba para mañana una subida en la popularidad del capo de otros 5 puntos. Todo parece indicar, al paso que vamos, que Uribe entrará al fascinante mundo de los records Guiness como el único presidente en alcanzar el 100 por ciento de popularidad en toda la historia de la humanidad.

“Ojos y oídos para Norteamérica / para su propio pueblo, sordo y ciego" Pablo Neruda

webmanco says on May 13, 2008, 12:51:

Another blow to the Colombian Justice system and sovereignty. Another proof that in Colombia corruption rules, and that is giving on the war on drugs drama.

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

CatGirl says on May 13, 2008, 12:52:

Slgy & CG - jaja....well when I decided on "Catgirl" - I had visions of the persona Catwoman. Plus I have been told that I have eyes like a cat. Many connections to cats in my life so it fits just well. No hair rollers and a daft robe with a plethora of cats and cat hair about me, jaja
Df just cracks me up....forget the thick skin, you gotta have a good sense of humor to come up with that. In fact, some people get a dog just so they can blame such an event on them ... "the dog did it" jajajaja
About as funny as the handle "tainthair"
Oooops sorry I am derailing

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

webmanco says on May 13, 2008, 12:54:

What about CatQueen?

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

durito says on May 13, 2008, 12:56:

"Another blow to the Colombian Justice system and sovereignty"

Perhaps. But, spending the next 20-30 years in a US prison is certainly a preferable place for these guys than releasing them in Colombia in a couple years when their 8 years are up.

webmanco says on May 13, 2008, 12:58:

It is "Durito" to believe it won`t be the same in USA with as stated before, withg high profile narcos.

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

buggy says on May 13, 2008, 13:00:

"Nice work, Uribe. " ????

Jajaja. Some PBHers are very funny or blind.

The truth : some ones, like Mancuso , were beginning to speak too much ...

13 de mayo de 2008
Claudia López, investigadora y analista quien ha hecho trabajos académicos sobre la influencia del paramilitarismo en la política, indicó que los casos de parapolítica se acabaron ahora porque "se llevaron a todos los testigos"...


12 de mayo de 2008
"Todas las bananeras de Urabá le pagaron a las AUC', asegura Salvatore Mancuso a CBS

El Tiempo, de Bogotá


10 de mayo de 2008

Salvatore Mancuso confirmó que 'paras' pagaban por información sobre naves de la Armada

El Tiempo, de Bogotá

8 de mayo de 2008

Denuncian vínculos de empresarios con AUC

CM& Noticias, de Bogotá

“Ojos y oídos para Norteamérica / para su propio pueblo, sordo y ciego" Pablo Neruda

Mr. Hollywood says on May 13, 2008, 13:22:

Buggy, you can expect that Mancuso will talk a whole lot more from his US holding cell, so there goes that theory.

The fact is, the demobilization was starting to look like a joke if the paraco leaders were continuing their dirty deeds from behind bars. They signed an agreement saying they would STOP their criminal endeavors and go straight. Then they broke that agreement. Now they're being held accountable.

Simon says on May 13, 2008, 13:50:

"Another blow to the Colombian Justice system and sovereignty. Another proof that in Colombia corruption rules, and that is giving on the war on drugs drama."

So you would prefer these paramilitary scumbags stay in Colombia committing all sorts of crimes from their jail cells?

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

durito says on May 13, 2008, 13:53:

"Buggy, you can expect that Mancuso will talk a whole lot more from his US holding cell, so there goes that theory. "

I'm not sure I agree with this. He may want to talk, but who is listening. The US gov't isn't going to give him a forum to speak, it's most likely in their interests to keep him quiet. He will never have to face the victims as was supposed to in Colombia. The US courts are only charging them with trafficking and money laundering.

While there are a few possible resources for his victims to pursue reparations against him in US courts, they aren't widely used.

billyb says on May 13, 2008, 13:58:

El Tiempo, Mayo 13 de 2008

Ex jefes paramilitares extraditados continuarán en la Ley de Justicia y Paz


'Paras' extraditados seguían delinquiendo e incumplían compromisos de ley de Justicia y Paz: Uribe El ministro Carlos Holguín aseguró que en las resoluciones que autorizaron los envíos se dice que las autoridades de E.U. deben garantizar que sigan las versiones libres y los procesos normales.

"Lo que le corresponde a la Fiscalía es continuar con el proceso judicial propiamente dicho. Vamos a seguir insistiendo, valiéndonos de la cooperación internacional, para que nuestros fiscales, los representantes de las víctimas y los testigos, puedan asistir a las versiones que componen el proceso de Justicia y Paz, valiéndonos de la cooperación internacional, entre otras, con la asistencia judicial de los E.U, vamos a continuar insistiendo en la verdad, la justicia y la reparación", dijo el Fiscal.

Iguarán advirtió que son cerca de 6 mil hechos confesados por los paramilitares, "los cuales el 95 por ciento estaban en la impunidad. Más de mil 450 cadáveres entregados a los familiares, que nos han dado la satisfacción en medio de ese entorno tan doloroso de los familiares, de sacarlos de esa tortura psicológica. Están por entregarse más de 400 mil millones en bienes.

El Fiscal señaló, en la rendición de cuentas del Instituto Nacional de Medicina Legal y Ciencias Forenses, que no conocía los motivos de la extradición de los 13 jefes paramilitares y un narcotraficante, pero que respeta y acata la decisión del gobierno.

"Frente a la decisión del Gobierno Nacional de extraditar varios miembros de las autodefensas, la Fiscalía debe señalar que acata la decisión porque somos respetuosos de esa autonomía, de esa competencia, de esa potestad, de esa discrecionalidad que tiene el Gobierno Nacional para, incluso, orientar esos procesos de paz desde el punto de vista político", dijo Iguarán.

Añadió que: "Sin conocer los motivos de la extradición, tenemos que ser respetuosos de la autonomía del Gobierno Nacional, conscientes que lidera desde el punto de vista político todo este proceso, pues Justicia y Paz es un proceso jurídico-político. Nosotros continuaremos insistiendo en los resultados que nos ha mostrado Justicia y Paz".

Colaboración con la justicia

Lo que está por verse es qué tan dispuestos están los 'paras', pues los delitos de narcotráfico y terrorismo por los que fueron extraditados podrían darles hasta 60 años de prisión en el país del norte. ¿Cuál sería su motivación para entregar bienes y confesar?

El ministro Holguín dice que si siguen en Justicia y Paz se salvarían de la Corte Penal, un fantasma que los ha rondado desde siempre. La entrega de bienes y la confesión haría parte de los acuerdos a los que podrían llegar con la justicia de E.U., si bien tradicionalmente ese país solo se ha interesado por las confesiones que tienen que ver con narcotráfico y la entrega de rutas

El futuro de la Ley de Justicia y Paz

Fuentes de la Fiscalía explicaron que quedan 3.280 postulados en la Ley de Justicia y Paz de los cuales quedan cerca de 2.000 para ser escuchados en las versiones ante los fiscales.

"Esa es la base de los paramilitares, ellos saben sobre todos las acciones criminales que cometieron durante años estos grupos ilegales, saben de masacres, desplazamientos, secuestros, extorsiones y sobre los desaparecidos en distintas zonas del país", explicó EL TEIMPO uno de los investigadores.

Los fiscales esperan que estos hombres cuenten la verdad al país y colaboren con la información para la entrega de fosas y que los familiares de las víctimas sepan sobre la suerte de sus seres queridos.

Ahora, los paramilitares que quedan deben satisfacer los requisitos para que no sean expulsados de la Ley de Justicia y Paz y deberán afrontar de manera individual sus procesos de verdad, justicia y reparación y sino quedarían expuestos a perder los beneficios y que sus procesos pasen a manos de la justicia ordinaria donde afrontarían penas hasta de 40 años de prisión.

En cuanto a los jefes paramilitares extraditados, la Fiscalía revisará los mecanismos de cooperación judicial para enviar comisiones judiciales a los Estados Unidos y poder continuar sus versiones para el esclarecimiento de los hechos.

Tinto (Moderator) says on May 13, 2008, 14:02:

An article from the NY Times, updated with a few quotes from the usual suspects (NGOs, university professors)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/14/world/americas/14colombia.html

In the unfortunate name department:
Rodrigo Tovar Pupo (the pupo part sounds funny to an English speaker) has a lawyer named Eduardo Bocanegra.

Mr. Poop and Mr. Black Mouth... how fitting

Simon says on May 13, 2008, 14:11:

"“These men are not going to be held accountable for the human rights violations they committed,� said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director for Human Rights Watch. “Victims in Colombia will not be able to confront their tormentors and receive the reparations they deserve.� "

That Jose Migual Vivanco is such a sniveling POS, if Colombia doesn't come down hard on the paras, he bitches, if they do, then he still bitches! WTF did he want, for the Paras to be handed over to the victim's families so they can lynch them?

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

Mr. Hollywood says on May 13, 2008, 14:14:

Durito wrote, "I'm not sure I agree with this. He may want to talk, but who is listening. The US gov't isn't going to give him a forum to speak, it's most likely in their interests to keep him quiet."

Oh, yes, they'll give him a forum to speak. It's called a trial. I'm sure he'll blabber like crazy, if he sees that as being in his interests. And it's not like he's being thrown into Gitmo. He'll be reachable just like any other Federal prison inmate.

But, personally, I think Mr. Mancuso and the others are fairly discredited as witnesses, and their axe to grind is obvious.

ColombianoGringo says on May 13, 2008, 14:15:

"for the Paras to be handed over to the victim's families so they can lynch them?" That sounds good. I've always been for hanging para and guerrilla leaders in Plaza de Bolivar, but this would work as well. Now we can only hope that they share the same fate as Jeffrey Dahmer in prison.

Simon says on May 13, 2008, 14:17:

My point was that nothing that Colombia does is good enough for that fokin guy.

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

Mr. Hollywood says on May 13, 2008, 14:18:

By the way, on the victims seeking justice front, I'd suggest they do a little research into the alien tort claims act of 1789 and file suit in the US against Don Berna and the other paraco jefes. I'm sure there are assets that can be seized.

Some enterprising plaintiff's lawyer should take this up.

Wastelandlive says on May 13, 2008, 14:25:

Webmanco: "A few millions of dollars, 200 more low key colombians to extradite, and those above mentionate could do 5 years and been granted USA citizenship."

No, they couldn't. That would be against the law.

Wasteland

webmanco says on May 13, 2008, 14:26:

Simon
So you would prefer these paramilitary scumbags stay in Colombia committing all sorts of crimes from their jail cells?

I prefer for Colombia to handle its own judicial system and not give away in a fake war on drugs. That is not too complicated to understand. is it?

Again the debate reduce the demand, create well paid jobs in Colombia, reduce social differences, richer getting richer, poor getting poorer.

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

Tinto (Moderator) says on May 13, 2008, 14:29:

Mr. Hollywood - The lawyer might have to be REALLY enterprising. I believe (but I'm no lawyer) that the Alien Tort Claims Act applies when the defendant is a US citizen, corporation, or government entity. Unless someone could prove the AUC is controlled by the CIA or was acting on behalf of the US Army, I don't think the claim would get too far.

Simon says on May 13, 2008, 14:30:

webmanco,

Yes, in an ideal world, Colombia's judicial system should be able to prosecute these bastards, but guess what? In reality, too many people sell-out to the bad guys and betray the law!


Cuando muchos Colombians dejen de ser tan corruptos, entonces no habrá necesidad de extraditar criminales Colombianos al exterior!

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

Mr. Hollywood says on May 13, 2008, 14:36:

Tinto, you're wrong. Alien tort claims routinely involve non-US plaintiffs and non-US defendants.

durito says on May 13, 2008, 14:36:

Mr. Hollywood ,"
Oh, yes, they'll give him a forum to speak. It's called a trial. I'm sure he'll blabber like crazy, if he sees that as being in his interests"

I doubt the expensive US attorneys he hired several years ago in case of an extradition will even put him on the stand. He certainly has an axe to grind, I just don't see it being an issue as his trial will be specifically about exporting drugs to the US and nothing else.

webmanco says on May 13, 2008, 14:37:

In an ideal world there would not be people consuming drugs, and in a fair system countries with high level of illegal drugs use should extradited them to Colombia or elsewhere. Or provide Colombia with the means to give well paid jobs in Colombia.

In a real world there would not be Rambo wannabes but good people strugling for peace without resorting to violence, punishment and desire for power not matther what.

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

durito says on May 13, 2008, 14:38:

In an ideal world these guys would be tried in Colombia and spent the rest of their lives in Colombian prison (while their fortunes are seized and distributed to their victims).

Also, in an ideal world, the US drug war would be ended.

Neither one of these things was going to happen.

Medellin Traveler says on May 13, 2008, 14:48:

WHAT A JOKE!

I can't believe people actually think this is good news.

It's sad for Colombia, really. It tells me Colombia, the whole gawd damn freakin' justice system, can't handle it's own business.

What the fuck does the US have anything to do with this? As if, we don't have enough problems in this country already, that we have to take care of another countries problems because they are inept, or because it's a great cover to make the Colombian president look good for the moment.

What a sad day... the new Colombia is the same o' Colombia........ LOCOLOMBIA!

kalder says, "This is one of the reasons I'm pro-US. At least there's one place in the world with the will, muscle and sense of justice to give squalid gangsters like those mentioned above their just desserts."

You've to be kidding!

Medellin es una chimba! www.medellintraveler.com

ColombianoGringo says on May 13, 2008, 14:51:

Adiós hijueputas. Ojala nunca vuelvan a poner pie en la patria que traicionaron.

durito says on May 13, 2008, 14:54:

nm

ColombianoGringo says on May 13, 2008, 14:56:

Ojala sea la ultima vez que este desgraciado tenga el placer de ver Colombia. Que ese recuerdito le sirva para sufrir mucho remordimiento en una carcel gringa.

Tinto (Moderator) says on May 13, 2008, 14:57:

Mr. H. - OK, but I still think it would be a big stretch for Colombian victims to be successful under the Tort Claims Act. There haven't been that many suits and it looks like the ones that have been filed usually have a corporation or a government entity as a plaintiff or a defendant. If an attorney could figure out a way get a citizen v. citizen case heard in court, I think he has to be sure there are U.S.-based assets to go after. And in that endeavor, he'd probably need to rely on the U.S. Treasury. Long odds but I suppose it's possible.

Tinto (Moderator) says on May 13, 2008, 14:59:

Don't be so surprised, MedellinTraveler. These guys are roughly prisoner numbers 701 to 715 that have been extradited since Uribe's been in office.

Simon says on May 13, 2008, 15:07:

"I can't believe people actually think this is good news.

It's sad for Colombia, really. It tells me Colombia, the whole gawd damn freakin' justice system, can't handle it's own business.

What the fuck does the US have anything to do with this?"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What does the US have to do with this you ask? Guess who consumes most of the cocaine these pricks export?

And for your information, every Colombian I know was elated when they heard these a-holes were extradited! You see, most decent people I know actually get happy when the bad guys get their just deserts!

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

juancegomez says on May 13, 2008, 15:15:

Here's an excerpt from a letter by HRW, way back in January of this year.

The letter is long and talks about many other issues, which deserve their own attention, but this is particularly relevant in the current context.

HRW's Vivanco has a bit of a point right now, which is why there must be efforts to avoid impunity and to keep the judicial processes from stopping, but let's see what HRW was saying a couple of months ago.

HRW was pretty much in favor of extraditing paramilitary commanders to the U.S. ,and in fact asked for it to be used as a pre-condition for approval of the FTA.

I seem to recall that there were letters from U.S. Democrats and other NGOs pretty much asking for extraditions as well.

All other issues aside, as I already commented about them....one could claim Uribe is following their logic, ironically enough, although that's certainly not his only interest.

Perhaps, again, it would have been better to do this much more gradually, I agree, but the main idea is that extraditions were being demanded from several U.S. sources, not just the Bush administration, and now they have come.

-------------
Letter to US Trade Representative Schwab on Colombia Free Trade Agreement


January 23, 2008

Ambassador Susan C. Schwab
United States Trade Representative
600 17th Street, NW
Washington, DC 20508

Dear Ambassador Schwab,

....

Effectively Use Leverage of Extradition

The most effective leverage that the Colombian government has over paramilitary leaders is the threat of extradition to the United States. Many of Colombia’s paramilitary leaders are wanted in the United States on charges of illegal drug trafficking. It was primarily the fear of extradition to the United States that initially led them to negotiate a “demobilization" program with President Uribe that would allow them to escape extradition by serving much reduced sentences for their crimes in Colombia.9

Today the threat of extradition could be used by the government to compel paramilitary commanders to comply fully with their obligations under the Justice and Peace Law to confess, surrender illegal assets, demobilize their troops, and cease from engaging in criminal activity.

However, for this threat to be effective, it must actually be applied to paramilitary leaders who fail to fulfill their obligations or engage in new crimes. The threat must also remain applicable indefinitely, to ensure that commanders have an incentive to refrain from committing new crimes.

Unfortunately, the Justice and Peace Law creates a loophole that allows paramilitary commanders to neutralize the threat of extradition to the United States. During the demobilization process, they can confess to the crimes for which they face charges in the United States and then receive reduced sentences for those crimes under the terms of the Justice and Peace Law. Under Colombian law, they are then protected on double jeopardy grounds from extradition for these
crimes.

As a precondition for FTA ratification, the US should insist that the Colombian government:

1. Prevent commanders from blocking extradition by promoting legislation that bars the application of the Justice and Peace Law to acts for which the United States has requested extradition and, until such legislation is passed, advising the Attorney General’s Office to refrain from prosecuting paramilitaries for these acts;

2. Extradite paramilitary commanders who are wanted in the United States and who have failed, in full or in part, to confess, surrender illegal assets, demobilize their troops and cease their criminal activities.10

...

Sincerely,

Kenneth Roth
Executive Director

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/01/25/colomb17876.htm

lpdiver says on May 13, 2008, 15:21:

Tinto...I hate to spoil your daydream; but, if one has the resources one can have a cell phone, laptop, etc in a US prison as well. It is a little more difficult but happens all the time.

I watched a long documentary on the Mexican Mafia recently and it is a huge problem here in the USA as well.

t

"cook some rice!"

webmanco says on May 13, 2008, 15:27:

Tinto, money talks, they might no get as many things as they would in Colombian jails but the main point is that these guys will aim por less time and not as much as commodities.

Those who believe USA is fithgting drug use in USA is daydreaming.

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

Tinto (Moderator) says on May 13, 2008, 15:29:

Sure, with corrupt prison guards a lot of things can happen that aren't supposed to. But most of the media stories are about state and local prisons. If the government hasn't thought this through for these very high profile dudes that are headed for the federal pen, then they're pretty damn incompetent and we should all stop paying our taxes.

;-)

slguy says on May 13, 2008, 15:31:

i cannot believe ssome of the whining goingg on here.

"I prefer for Colombia to handle its own judicial system and not give away in a fake war on drugs"

colombia does one hellluva job with it's justice system.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

ColombianoGringo says on May 13, 2008, 15:33:

Hopefully they will end up in a supermax prison.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/11/60minutes/main3357727.shtml?...

durito says on May 13, 2008, 15:38:

If being extradited to the US wasn't so terrible, these guys wouldn't have been fighting against it for the past 25 years.

ColombianoGringo says on May 13, 2008, 15:41:

What did the narcos used to say? Better death in Colombia than life in a US prison.

webmanco says on May 13, 2008, 15:44:

they're pretty damn incompetent and we should all stop paying our taxes.

;-)

If it only were guards, but both in USA some high scale prosecutors and in Colombia many politicians would easily give you reasons to stop paying taxes but what is a regular citizen to do? just keep paying taxes and both governments performing well their roles in the "war on drugs"

It is not the fact of being extradited or not, it is the fact of the incompetence of Colombia to jugde its national, and the demand in foreign countries for illegal drugs.

Besides politics benefits from the war on drugs, and Colombia it is paying high the consume done elsewhere.

La ropa sucia se lava en casa. This is not the case.

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

tomtom33 says on May 13, 2008, 15:48:

Money doesn't talk very loudly in the Federal prison system. The guards are well-paid Federal employees. And the system is very transparent. In other words, it's hard to pull shit in a glass house.

The US legal and penal systems are far from perfect. But we will never get perfect. Will we?

lpdiver says on May 13, 2008, 15:51:

Legalize the chit and you take the power away from the US politicians that are profiting as well as the narcos.

t

"cook some rice!"

tomtom33 says on May 13, 2008, 16:18:

I agree with legalization. But I can't quite see how US politicians are profiting from illegal drugs. Guess I'm a little slow.

webmanco says on May 13, 2008, 16:22:

How do politicians gain votes?

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

tomtom33 says on May 13, 2008, 16:25:

They buy them.

lpdiver says on May 13, 2008, 16:37:

Tomtom...Of the billions of dollars spent on "THe war on drugs" an awful lot of that is spent on "contracts" to supply this item or perform that service. Politicians are very influential in this process and get either votes or cash under the table.

Sad but true.

By the product being illegal the narcos get premium price for their goods.

Does this help a bit?

t

"cook some rice!"

tomtom33 says on May 13, 2008, 17:03:

Thank you. I understand where you are coming from.

However, I do not believe that the impetus for continuing to keep drugs illegal has much of anything to do with campaign contributions from these contractors. Call me Pollyanna. If any legislation to legalize drugs were to be introduced in my lifetime, that bill would be DOA for other reasons.

Mr. Hollywood says on May 13, 2008, 17:07:

The "justice" question.

It' s an interesting question whether the needs of victims (and families of victims) of these warlords back in Colombia are not served because they won't be tried on the specific human rights violations but, rather, on a bevvy of smuggling, RICO, money laundering and other charges in the US.

Personally, if my loved one had been killed by one of these scumbags I'd much rather seem him do life in a US jail for a "different" crime than do short time in a Colombian jail for my own specific offense. But that's just me.

And, just as a data point, this isn't a total abstraction. Someone close to me was, in fact, at one point under death threat from one of the dirtbags on that plane, so maybe some of my glee is personal.

Medellin Traveler says on May 13, 2008, 17:11:

Sorry Simon,

But, it's sad for Colombia, really.

It tells me Colombia, the whole gawd damn freakin' justice system, can't handle it's own business.

If I were Colombian, I wouldn't be too proud to show the world that Colombia can't handle takin' care of a few criminals.

More importantly, those criminals DO NOT belong in the U.S.! REGARDLESS of the fact that some people in the US like to do a little coke every now and then.

When will Colombia ship the rest of their dirty laundry to the USA?

Medellin es una chimba! www.medellintraveler.com

Mr. Hollywood says on May 13, 2008, 17:24:

MT, I agree with you that it's sad Colombia doesn't seem able to deal with these issues in its own courts. But overall I think it's a good sign that the government is cracking down so hard on the paracos who have so badly abused the demobilization and peace process.

The benefits outweigh the costs, in my opinion.

billyb says on May 13, 2008, 20:20:

Everybody knows the Colombian judicial and penal systems are compromised. That is why it is better to send these POS to the US were they will face some semblance of justice, instead of pretending that all is honky dory in Colombia while they carry on with their drug businesses, confiscating land from peasants, directing their remaining para groups and ordering murders from "prison". Better to expend the effort fortalizing the system than pretending it works.?

CatGirl says on May 13, 2008, 20:47:

So the over all concensus is that these guys will have no ability to conduct business in Colombia from a Federal Prision in Florida or New York?
OK. ....i think

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

slguy says on May 13, 2008, 20:54:

they won't, cg. all calls from fed prisons are monitored. i think - except to attorneys of record.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

CatGirl says on May 13, 2008, 20:59:

Thanks Slygy....OK.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

billyb says on May 13, 2008, 21:05:

Anyways, they won't be in command much longer. Who is going to take orders from someone serving life five thousand miles away? The fight has already begun to see which of the underlings takes over. And so it continues, just without them.

Desideria (Moderator) says on May 13, 2008, 21:16:

I don't know...the more I read about the less I like it. As a principle, I share webmanco's opinion about non-extardition. I think it's a cop-out and a tacit admittance that Colombia's justice system is not capable of handling this and that the Colombian sovereignity as a nation is compromised by the extradtion treaty.

Then we have the problem of these criminals being only tried for minor charges, like drug trafficking while their most heinous crimes, like massacres, torture, terrorism will remain unpunished forever.

For Mr. Uribe it's a win-win situation. It makes him look good and gain even more popularity by extraditing these criminals. It's good for the record, but not in essence. Perhaps they will be able to continue their despiccable career from federal prisons, maybe not; I share the opinion that they are removed from their victims, from the scenario, tucked away safely and silenced very effectively. Oh yes, they will yell and shout, rant and give speeches but after that...they will be silenced and stored away.

.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

slguy says on May 13, 2008, 21:24:

so, des - you'd prefer they continue running the show down there from their "prison" cells?

realistically, extradtion or allowing them to maintain operational control are the only two options.

i know, i know the LONG history of major crminals buying cushy prison lives is uribe's fault, too.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

billyb says on May 13, 2008, 21:26:

" think it's a cop-out and a tacit admittance that Colombia's justice system is not capable of handling this"

So you would rather they pretend the penal and judicial systems are working and continue let these rats carry on with their illegal activities, like having peasants killed so they can take their land from "prison"?

Desideria (Moderator) says on May 13, 2008, 21:30:

I'm not saying I PREFER anything. I'm just voicing some concerns around the issue. I'm not the only one either, meanwhile you typed your answer I was reading El Tiempo editorial and they were saying pretty much the same thing about the US courts being more interested in the kilos of cocaine than massacres and chainsaws.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

CatGirl says on May 13, 2008, 21:30:

Desi ' Perhaps they will be able to continue their despiccable career from federal prisons, maybe not;¨¨

I know I keep harping on this issue, but I am sure there are ways other than telephone to communicate outside. Through prision guards and less secure inmates - possibly even inmates upon release. Sorry, maybe I am jaded from first hand experience working with the State system. I found an enormous amount of corruption around me. The joke was the only difference between the guards and the inmates are the keys (many times true BTW). Hard to believe there aren't any similarities.
Maybe I am wrong....whatever.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

ColombianoGringo says on May 13, 2008, 21:31:

It is very sad that the Colombian justice system is truly a joke. From the level of a deadbeat dad to a mass murdering warlord, no one seems to pay. There is consequently very little respect for the rule of law. In fact, the only thing that scares the most heinous criminals is the threat of extradition. That pretty much says it all.

Still, I think it is probably the best outcome from the standpoint of "justice". While they won't technically do time for their worst crimes, they will likely never set foot on Colombian soil and will hopefully die alone in prisons far from home. The official charges may say drug trafficking, etc., but the fact is that they would never have really served even the ridiculous eight year sentences under "Paz e Injusticia". This may very well be a cynical attempt by the government to draw attention from its own problems. It's true that they will quickly be replaced and that it will make very little real difference to the security of Colombia, but one way or another, they are being made to pay.

As a Colombian, I hate seeing that last glimpse of land fade away as I'm headed on a plane back to the US. Luckily, I can go back as often as I want. This allows me to imagine the bitter memory of that last look at Colombia that will haunt them for the rest of their lives. Good riddance.

billyb says on May 13, 2008, 21:33:

I PREFER that they get lfe in prison in the US for selling a "few" kilos, than lettting them off with just a few years in Colombia for murder, and BTW, they will still be liable to Colombian justice in the future, when they will be broken men without the money or power to intimidate or bribe.

Desideria (Moderator) says on May 13, 2008, 21:34:

No, I'd prefer them to get their shit together and instead of keep stealing the money build maximum security prisons with no frills for these scum of the earth. Who says they won't be able to continue their illicit operations from the jails in US? Or when they are gone, other , minor capos take over the operations like a hydra with a thousand heads, you cut down 10 and get 100 new.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

CatGirl says on May 13, 2008, 21:35:

BB "they will still be liable to Colombian justice in the future, when they will be broken men without the money or power to intimidate or bribe."

I like this statement...

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

CatGirl says on May 13, 2008, 21:37:

Desi - Guam would be a great place for that!! jajaja.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

ColombianoGringo says on May 13, 2008, 21:38:

That would be what we'd all like to see, but the reality is that it couldn't happen in time to punish these scumbags correctly. Not only do you have to "fix" the justice system, but you need to change societal attitudes of several generations of Colombians. Like I said, the justice system is a failure from the most basic levels to the highest. I wish I had a realistic solution, but I don't. Do you?

Mr. Hollywood says on May 13, 2008, 21:41:

Desi, getting a country's shit together is something that happens step by step. You can't leap from crawling to running without learning to walk first. One step is getting this kind of "scum of the earth" punished at all when previously they operated with complete impunity. Fixing the criminal justice system is a long and difficult road, particularly in a country like Colombia with such a powerful black market.

slguy says on May 13, 2008, 21:41:

"I think it's a cop-out and a tacit admittance that Colombia's justice system is not capable of handling this and that the Colombian sovereignity as a nation is compromised by the extradtion treaty."

does any rational person claim that, today, colombia IS capable handling this?

"Then we have the problem of these criminals being only tried for minor charges, like drug trafficking while their most heinous crimes, like massacres, torture, terrorism will remain unpunished forever."

so - the symbolism is more important than the punishment? does anyone truly believe these monsters would receive harsher judgement, ie longer prison terms, in colombia for their more horrific crimes, than they will here for drug traficking, etc?

so the question really is - should they be punished more severely for a lesser crime here, or should they continue running their operations from a colombian "prison" cell for 8-10 years?

christ! these guys will probably die in prison here, long after losing control of colombian operations, and still you anti-uribistas find reasons to complain....


2.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

Mr. Hollywood says on May 13, 2008, 21:43:

Funny, Colombiangringo and I said basically the same thing at the same time.

billyb says on May 13, 2008, 21:43:

So Desi, you would rather that they elude justice and continue their illegal enterprises while these changes occur, instead of having them start to pay for their crimes right away?

lpdiver says on May 13, 2008, 21:43:

CatGirl...why in the world would you say "Guam would be a great place for that!!" ?

t

"cook some rice!"

Simon says on May 13, 2008, 21:43:

"As a Colombian, I hate seeing that last glimpse of land fade away as I'm headed on a plane back to the US. Luckily, I can go back as often as I want. This allows me to imagine the bitter memory of that last look at Colombia that will haunt them for the rest of their lives. Good riddance."

Totalmente de acuerdo!!

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

romy says on May 13, 2008, 21:44:

"they will still be liable to Colombian justice in the future, when they will be broken men without the money or power to intimidate or bribe."

The thing is that it cannot possibly be true... these guys have built up so much capital, nobody is going to be able to take it all away. chances are they will not go back to Colombia anyways, a deal to remain in the US is more likely.

Simon says on May 13, 2008, 21:46:

"christ! these guys will probably die in prison here, long after losing control of colombian operations, and still you anti-uribistas find reasons to complain...."


Very well put Slguy, if there's one thing you can always count on, it's these anti-Uribistas always finding something to bitch about!

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

slguy says on May 13, 2008, 21:47:

despite cg's experiences with a state penal system...the feds don't fuck around. white collar criminals don't suffer much more than loss of liberty in the low security camps....but these assholes ain't going there.

their careers are over.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

CatGirl says on May 13, 2008, 21:47:

Lpdiver - have you been to Guam? I think it would be a great place for a high security prison - LOL.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

lpdiver says on May 13, 2008, 21:49:

Yes I have resided there. Aruba is much more suitable and much closer.

t

"cook some rice!"

billyb says on May 13, 2008, 21:50:

Are you kidding? Their underlings are already fighting for control of their organizations and for their land. You might be unaware of this fact, but none of them have any property or bank accounts under their name, but rather under testafros, and right now their formerly subservient underlings are visiting those same testaferos as we speak and letting them know who is the new master of that property.

durito says on May 13, 2008, 21:51:

The whole 8 years sentences where offered under several conditions, with the agreement that if they weren't met, they'd be extradited to the US.

Irregardless of whether this is a good idea in general (i'm not particularly fond of the idea of extradition at all), if they were breaking the terms of their agreement, they needed to be extradited.

I do find it rather odd that this all happened in one fell swoop one night with no warning.

CatGirl says on May 13, 2008, 21:52:

Lp: OK - jaja. I am not familiar with Aruba so cannot comment.....the only place that came to mind was Guam....

Hey - I handglide what do you expect jaja ;)

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

billyb says on May 13, 2008, 21:53:

Why give them warning? Nothing good would have come from giving them warning.

romy says on May 13, 2008, 21:54:

ok, I visited a farm of the Rodriguez up in km24 in January... and keep telling me you know what you are talking about

ColombianoGringo says on May 13, 2008, 21:55:

I'd hate to be one of those testaferros when two or three different lieutenants come asking for the same stash of cash or piece of property.

ColombianoGringo says on May 13, 2008, 21:56:

durito, I think that's only way it could have been done. I'm shocked that none of these guys bolted after they extradited Macaco. If they started doing the extraditions publicly, one by one, all hell would have broken loose. Remember what the narcos did to avoid extradition.

billyb says on May 13, 2008, 21:56:

"ok, I visited a farm of the Rodriguez up in km24 in January"

And this is relevant because........BTW,
It is called "la Carolina" and did you go inside, or just drive past?

slguy says on May 13, 2008, 21:57:

"ok, I visited a farm of the Rodriguez up in km24 in January... and keep telling me you know what you are talking about"

so...you checked the legal documents as to ownership while you were there?

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

romy says on May 13, 2008, 21:58:

went in, they let us play paintaball in there

romy says on May 13, 2008, 21:59:

my soccer team that I love is owned by a Rodriguez still...

billyb says on May 13, 2008, 22:01:

Under the agreement the Rodriguez brothers signed with the US gov, they would give up most of their properties and bank acconts, except for principal resindences of the family in exchange for the US gov not going after the rest of the family. But you can pretend otherwise.

billyb says on May 13, 2008, 22:03:

"my soccer team that I love is owned by a Rodriguez still...

And the reason America de Cali sucks is because they have no money to maintain the team and get good players, as they are also on the Clinton list, they can't get any sponsors.