Colombian news headlines | Explosive growth cocafields, Colombia helps Ecuador with assassination plot, Bogotá bombs and arrests, Court complains about extradition

romy says on Jun 13, 2008, 12:44:

Very worrying news... The Uribe propaganda screen that made people think things were improving seems to be fading.

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lampltr says on Jun 13, 2008, 17:36:

The issue that gets me cranked up is the lack of global programs promoting Colombia agricultural products and the needed boost. Not to mention local government programs to boost incomes etc. If a very difficult situation for sure but to kill off everything in site with spraying, and not to assist the population leads those to complete the easiest means possible to gain in income to better support the family the quickest and easiest means possible. With much rising food prices and others there are more and more families hitting the destitute ranks. I do not blame them one bit, one has to survive....How many years has this been going on, how much talk, and the list goes on, but nothing proactive has yet taken root in a major way!

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harvardexec says on Jun 13, 2008, 23:07:

The current (American backed) Colombian Drug Policy has proven ineffective. Both countries need to admit this drug war was a failed strategy. The US and Colombia need to enact legislation that has been successful in other parts of the world, like Holland or to a lesser degree, Canada. Serious thought must be given to the legalization of marijuana and zoning within cities that permits people to use some drugs responsibly. Further education needs to be given to people on the dangers of drugs (legal or illegal).

"I'm going to be honest: I know a lot less about economics than I do about military and foreign policy issues. I still need to be educated."-John McCain

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billyb says on Jun 13, 2008, 23:11:

The war on drugs is a joke, everything else is improving. Why even Chavez and Correa are throwing the FARC under bus. Now why would they do that? Out of the goodness of their hearts? Little Yidis has been exposed as a liar (just ask her lawyer), extorsionist and just maybe, complicit in kidnapping. Nothing worrying there, things have not been this good for old Alvaro in a long time ;))

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romy says on Jun 14, 2008, 06:43:

I guess more coca production, attempts by Colombians to kill foreign leaders, FARC bombs exploding in Bogota, Presidente letting paramilitary leaders go off easy, lying scumbags are all COOL eh

"Both countries need to admit this drug war was a failed strategy." too bad we are talking about two of the most stubborn countries in admitting failed strategy.

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billyb says on Jun 14, 2008, 20:37:

Romy, Did I say those things were cool? Did you read my post? I said the war on drugs is a joke. I didn't say things in Colombia were perfect, or even very good, I said they are improving. The war's end, for the first time, might be insight, don't you agree that is a good thing?

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romy says on Jun 15, 2008, 00:36:

the problem is that it's not in sight as it has become all so apparent. But the media machinery will make you think it is. They're striking Bogota for God's sake...

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billyb says on Jun 15, 2008, 00:52:

They are striking Bogota with a few easily carried out and (except for those personally affected) insignificant attacks, that are akin to the last kicks of a dying horse, or a increasingly irrelevant group vainly trying, and failing, to apppear otherwise. And as a matter of fact, Law enfrocement is starting to roll up the cells that are responsible for these attacks, and sadly for the FARC, they are composed of unsophisticated rural peasants from caqueta that have no idea how to effectively navigate Bogota.

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romy says on Jun 15, 2008, 00:55:

ok, do you want to bet on the end of FARC ETA?

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billyb says on Jun 15, 2008, 01:15:

I could give a shit about the end of ETA, since the Spanish gov under Zapatero wants to sweep the fact that ETA has been training the FARC on cell phone activated bombs under the rug, well, they can live with the ETA and their tender mercies. Let's define the end of the FARC. You tell me what you would consider their end and i'll propose a timeline to get there that we can bet on.

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romy says on Jun 15, 2008, 01:34:

no no no I meant estimated time of arrival (ETA)... you're the one that's saying that FARC is coming to an end, which isn't very clear to me. So maybe you have a definition of what the end will mean. I don't believe the end is near (whatever that may be).

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billyb says on Jun 16, 2008, 06:50:

That's the thing romy, there are many ways to define their end. Is it when there's not one single one left? When they cease being a serious threat, but still have holdouts? When they cease being an armed insuurection and morph into a legi politica party? My deffinition is when they cease being a serious threat, as violence in Colombia won't end anytime soon, and as we have also seen with the paras, they don't always stop delinquenting, just morph into other criminal groups.

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romy says on Jun 16, 2008, 08:18:

They definitely won`t stop "delinquenting" any time soon... so what's the point of militarizing the country and sacrificing social services?

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billyb says on Jun 16, 2008, 08:44:

"delinquenting", you like the new word I coined?

"so what's the point of militarizing the country and sacrificing social services?"

The point is the magnitude of that militarization. Without them as a threat to the state, you can reduce the size of the military and its budget and you can start sourcing that money to social projects and reducing the deficit.I think it is just now starting to sink in to the FARC leadership (alas, not all of them) that they will never be able to take power by force and every day that goes by,their negotiating position weakens.

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romy says on Jun 16, 2008, 08:48:

At what point does this happen? The war machinery is very hard to slow down... just ask Dubya. i want to know at what point Uribistas will demand of Uribe to reduce the military, etc.

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 16, 2008, 09:05:

Either when colombia has become a blatant police state ('blatant' , I suppose is a matter of perspective) or when rich kids are forced to join the army.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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romy says on Jun 16, 2008, 09:28:

"when colombia has become a blatant police state"
I don't think so... at that point it would have to be an external force that takes down the system.

"when rich kids are forced to join the army"
This would never happen.

Actually I met an Israeli girl the other day, very evidently from a wealthy family. She told me she had been in the Israeli army for a couple of years... is it wrong of me to date someone just because I'm curious to hear the stories?

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billyb says on Jun 16, 2008, 09:32:

"i want to know at what point Uribistas will demand of Uribe to reduce the military, etc."

By Uribistas, do you mean at what point will 80% of the country demand that? When it is obvious that the FARC has ceased being a threat to the state. And boys and girls I have good news for you, we are almost there ;)

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romy says on Jun 16, 2008, 09:59:

you don't actually believe 80% of the country supports Uribe? do you billyb, I thought you were more clever than that... "obvious" is a relative term, and there will always be the excuse to carry out military tactics.

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billyb says on Jun 16, 2008, 10:10:

Nope, no that clever, so I can only go by what the polls are saying. Yes I know, the polls aren't taking into account the opinions of people living in the jungles of Caqueta without landlines. So let's say it's only 70%.

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billyb says on Jun 16, 2008, 10:14:

There is a huge amount of people (many in my family) who don't particularly like Uribe, but feel he is what Colombia needs at this time. As soon as they feel confident of the security of the country in some othe pol's hands, they will stop supporting him.

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romy says on Jun 16, 2008, 10:15:

well if we ever coincide in Cali, I'll make that a 50% at most in your mind by taking you around the city to meet people. honest hard working people.

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billyb says on Jun 16, 2008, 10:18:

"and there will always be the excuse to carry out military tactics"

I don't think anybody is ever expecting Colombia to become another Switzerland. We will still need a strong military and military operations will still need to be carried out.

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billyb says on Jun 16, 2008, 10:26:

"taking you around the city to meet people. honest hard working people."

The implication being that I don't know "honest" and "hardworking" people? jaja, just kidding.

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romy says on Jun 16, 2008, 10:27:

I think you should know what you are talking about before using it as an argument... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Army)

You mean Colombia will still have military operations after FARC???? FARC isn't the all-evil I've been reading??? What possible military operations could be left if FARC "has ceased being a threat to the state"?? I mean the paramilitaries are disbanded, aren't they?

"The implication being that I don't know "honest" and "hardworking" people?"
I meant it to get rid of the belief that anyone that doesn't like Uribe is farc-sympathizing/evil-people/etc.

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billyb says on Jun 16, 2008, 10:56:

Romy, thanks for the attempt at a history lesson, but what I meant by Switzerland was not that they don't have a strong military (anybody not completely ignorant would know that they do), but rather the fact that they have not had to use for 500 years.

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billyb says on Jun 16, 2008, 10:57:

"The implication being that I don't know "honest" and "hardworking" people?"
I meant it to get rid of the belief that anyone that doesn't like Uribe is farc-sympathizing/evil-people/etc.'

I figured that's what you meant, therefor the "jaja, just joking/

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 17, 2008, 01:09:

hahaha Romy, you must have a ton of time in your hands if you're dating girls to hear stories :P I can think, however, of worse reasons to date girls. My father did his army time for 2 years and back then women were required to do one year and attend some "update" crash courses every three years or something like that. I've never been a friend of the draft, if anything, my idea of serving the country in the israeli case lies along the lines of moving to a kibbutz for a year and busting my ass in the countryside. However, implications aside, I kind of admire their draft model in the sense that no one is exempt...a little bit like death and taxes.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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romy says on Jun 17, 2008, 01:53:

my views on dating are very skewed (as probably are my views on everything...). but interesting conversation seems to be a priority, though participation in forums like this allow me to 'dumb down' and 'go with the flow' in reality, I have found. Oh the crazy things I've done... I laugh at myself all the time. Not even hopeless romantic... just hopeless hahaha
working at a kibbutz as serving country?? isn't that a minority? I don't see the impact, anyways... I don't particularly like the draft and I kind of detest the military. But I can't help but to think that mostly good would come out of a year's service.

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 17, 2008, 02:06:

a minority of people in Israel are Kibbutzniks but the economic impact of Kibbutz' has been undeniable throughout Israel's short history. It was the kibbutzniks who first started working the land in Israel, they also contributed enormously to the israeli irrigation system which is IMO one of the most impressive out there. I would say there is much to learn from kibbutzniks and their lifestyle. It is far from a Marxist communism and I'd say closer to an Owenite New Lanark, except for the fact that this one actually works. I believe it would be a deeply formative experience for any person and I cannot envision a more positive way to get to love your country for what it stands for, rather than for its external threats.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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romy says on Jun 17, 2008, 02:36:

In a way I've shifted away from 'how I can best serve my country?' and then the hippie in me comes out as 'it's all about humanity man, we're all people'

Anyways, look at what you made me do... read



from The Limits of Equality: An Economic Analysis of the Israeli Kibbutz. The Journal of Economic History (2007), 67: 495-499 Cambridge University Press


AN ECONOMIC REINTERPRETATION OF KIBBUTZ
The economic approach employed in my dissertation provides a new interpretation
of the Kibbutz. In particular, my hypothesis is consistent with the creation of
Kibbutzim, their rules and internal organization, their demographic patterns, and
their recent shift away from equal-sharing.

The model suggests that insurance may have been a major objective of the founders
of Kibbutzim, an aspect previously neglected by scholars. The founders of
Kibbutzim arrived as young individuals in a land filled with uncertainty, and they
sought insurance. They were in their “ex-ante" stage, in the sense that they were
young, had similar background and training and had similar expected prospects.6
Creating communities based on equal-sharing was an attractive form of insurance
in the absence of developed insurance markets.

The founders must have realized, however, that members who turn out to have
high abilities might later leave the Kibbutz and earn a premium for their ability
outside. This realization seems to have shaped Kibbutzim’s internal organization.
To mitigate the tendency of the best members to leave, the founders created lock-in
devices—such as collective ownership of property, no private savings, restrictions
on working outside the Kibbutz, and high provision of local public goods that can
only be enjoyed by stayers—that would make ex-post exit costly.

Another lock-in device was the provision of Kibbutz-specific human capital to
members. Comparing human-capital formation in the Kibbutz movement to that of
the rest of the Jewish population in Israel between 1960 and 1995 reveals that members
tend to have Kibbutz-specific human capital and that they are less likely to have
higher education. The same analysis reveals that Kibbutz members work in diverse
occupations, consistent with an insurance story, and that they tend to work in industries
that facilitate mutual monitoring, which alleviates the free rider problem.

The system worked well as long as Kibbutzim were rich relative to the general
population. Accepting entrants at an “ex-ante" stage (through the army or from
youth movements abroad) and screening entrants mitigated adverse selection. The
wealth shock of the mid- 1980s, however, weakened the lock-in, and the technology-
oriented growth of Israel in the 1990s increased the returns to skills outside the
Kibbutz. These resulted in massive exit of the most productive individuals and a
subsequent shift away from equal-sharing in an attempt to stop the “brain drain."

WHY ISN’T THE ENTIRE WORLD A KIBBUTZ?
If insurance is valuable and the sharing-rule can be adjusted to mitigate braindrain,
then why is not the entire world a Kibbutz? And, why are all Kibbutzim relatively
small? One answer is that social ties between members are important in mitigating
the moral hazard problem and facilitating insurance. Interestingly, membership
size does not affect a Kibbutz’s likelihood to shift away from equal-sharing. At
a first glance, this finding may suggest that the shirking problem is not a driving
force in Kibbutzim’s commitment to equal-sharing; otherwise, larger Kibbutzim,
where monitoring is more difficult, would be more likely to shift away from equalsharing.
However, all Kibbutzim have fewer than 1,200 members, so they may be
equally effective in monitoring and in mitigating the shirking problem. The lack of
privacy that is a by-product of the monitoring may explain why not everyone wishes
to live in a Kibbutz.

Finally, why did the Kibbutz movement persist where many other communes in history
did not? One answer is that the Kibbutz movement, despite facing competition
from the outside world, was flexible throughout its existence. Other communes with
radical and rigid belief systems placing them at the margin of society dissolved in response
to changes. The Kibbutzim’s flexibility may be a key factor that will allow
them to continue to survive in a changing economic environment, even if in an altered
form.

RAN ABRAMITZKY, Stanford University

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 17, 2008, 03:04:

Interesting.
It is difficult to imagine a system in which certain policies to locking it in are not implemented. In K-ism, generally it appears to be "no work- no money"...in IFIs "No Privatization, No money"...and so on. I am by no means justifying the fact that the kibbutznik profile is that of a poorly educated person (which is often not the case), but I think its important to keep in mind that every system in which people are forced to live as part of a larger group (even the highly individualized capitalist society, which I have always found incredibly ironic) has methods of locking you in, regardless of how much they appear to favour freedoms.
That said, I totally see why anyone would decide to leave the kibbutz in search of a more private, affluent lifestyle. But in defense of the Kibbutz (hahaha), they are trying to make the transition to a more mixed economy in order to integrate themselves into the larger society. There is actually a resort kibbutz, owning several hotels and providing all sorts of services to the tourism industry. I have not read enough about it, but the idea of it sounds rather interesting as kibbutzniks will be required to learn languages, study tourism and acquire some sort of entrepreneurial skills... how are they going to be locked in is beyond me, but I think is something worth following.
I don't believe, however, that the answer to the meaning of life resides in the kibbutz lifestyle, but I do believe experiencing something this different for a year or even six months, especially at a younger age (16 to 24) can prove a rewarding and fruitful experience. I know some people think kibbutzing is very hippie, kind of retro, but in all actuality it can be quite challenging.

By the way, I don't feel very guilty about inspiring others to read about kibbutzism. If anything, you have more to talk about with your Israeli squeezes than an hour ago. You're welcome.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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romy says on Jun 17, 2008, 03:35:

That irony is one that I struggle with every day...
Perhaps what interested me to read a little more about this, other than the pleasent discussion ;) is that search for a collective that works. Unfortunately it seems like that concept has deteriorated in this case. I would take a stab at suggesting that a key reason would be the demise of religion, it seems to me that religion is such a powerful tool to convince the masses that in this case it worked to a collective good (unlike so many negatives that have come from religion)...the demise correlates with the deterioration.
I'd do it for a couple of months (The K thing), my parents would kill me, but I'm up for an exciting and 'different' experience most of the time.

hahah my Israeli squeezes.... maybe I will call her

btw, have you seen the new Adam Sandler movie? oh my goodness it was non-stop laughter for me. Though also funny was that I was pretty much the only one laughing as my screening coincided with a bunch of high schoolers' and either they didn't get it or were uneasy about laughing. If it wasn't $12 bucks and a wasted night I'd go watch it with a more mature/cosmopolitan crowd... you know for the sake of social science.

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 17, 2008, 03:49:

The Zohan one? I haven't seen it yet. But I will try and check it out... I've been too busy watching Arrested Development. In regards to laughing at the same stuff teenagers do...I do that too. Especially when there are midgets involved. That is the only outrageous despicable habit I cannot seem to overcome.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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romy says on Jun 17, 2008, 04:07:

yeah Zohan, you should give me your perspective after you watch it... hahaha midgets, enough said.

"the only outrageous despicable habit I cannot seem to overcome" of course!!

anyways I should sleep a bit, I screwed up my sleep pattern last week and now I'm sleeping in spurts, which cannot be good for anyone involved.

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