Colombian military used Red Cross emblem in rescue

billyb says on Jul 16, 2008, 07:06:

oh well, typical euro BS. They (the Swiss) are just pissed that Uribe fired their negotiator for being a bagman for the FARC. I'd like to see how they would frame it. "these people are war criminals because they lied in order to rescue 15 people who had been tortured, raped and chained to trees in the jungle for up to 10 years", I'd lke to see a jury convicct them.

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august says on Jul 16, 2008, 07:14:

Folks this is about the good guys (assuming the Colombian military is the good guys) needing to abide by principles and trying to stay human in the course of armed conflict. Hell yes that was a war crime. Maybe we there´s no hope in thinking that guerrillas are going to abide by standards, but at least the government has to. I like how originally the government of Colombia and the local press described the group they feigned to represent as "oh, just some international NGO..." Wow nice one guys, impersonating the Red Cross.

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billyb says on Jul 16, 2008, 07:20:

So you prefer the alternative? In your mind this is worse than the hostages being chained to trees in the jungle? Hey, if they had to impersonate the pope and mother teresa to get them out, I'm good with it. The fact that this operation caused friction in the cozy relationship between the NGOs and the FARC is just an added benefit.

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romy says on Jul 16, 2008, 07:24:

we already know you have no ethics... what's new?

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billyb says on Jul 16, 2008, 07:25:

oh, i feel so wounded. And we know why you're against the rescue.

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kernow62 says on Jul 16, 2008, 07:27:

This sets a very dangerous precedent. The Red Cross has been something that has been honoured by enemy combatants and has saved a great many lives in time of war. If a side starts using it as a ruse it will become meaningless. This trick may have saved 15 lives at the expense of thousands of other lives.

I recall an incident that "supposedly" happened in the Falklands where the Argies raised a white flag of surrender and then opened fire on a British platoon.

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romy says on Jul 16, 2008, 07:28:

I have ethical issues against the operation. I'm glad 15 people are out of the jungle. what else?

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Jul 16, 2008, 07:31:

Do people think this is still a 'he said - she said' or did the Colombian government definitely lie and do they continue to lie about whether an internationally recognized logo was used?

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billyb says on Jul 16, 2008, 07:33:

Kernow (good morning BTW), the red cross and its muslim cousin the red crescent have been used for ages by the bad guys to transport fighters and weapons with impunity. And the only time the "ethical" ones get in an uproar about the abuse, is when the tables are turned and it is used against the terrorists.

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Cerealkiller says on Jul 16, 2008, 07:34:

This is stipulated under international law as a war crime and has to be tried as such. A crime is a crime and there really isn't much more to it. However, CNN stated they saw the material in question (some pics and videos) but added they cannot say whether is genuine or not. I refuse to believe the Colombian government is stupid/careless enough to fuck up like that. Time will tell.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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billyb says on Jul 16, 2008, 07:35:

So where is the crime? That a bunch of murderers were tricked into giving up their hostages?

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gamm2 says on Jul 16, 2008, 07:35:

At first I was getting a little scared reading it, but then reading that Ingrid said in a press conference that she didn't see any symbols... why would she lie? And if she is lying.... all the Ingrid haters need to acknowledge she is protecting the Colombian govt... hahah I really dont think she'd do that.

And what type of shoddy journalism was this article? Those last two paragraphs are completely ridiculous. Cmon Karl Penhaul!!

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kernow62 says on Jul 16, 2008, 07:36:

CK, they were being advised by the US and Israel, what do you expect. I might mention I wouldn't trust the UK either, they are all sneaky bastards, there are no good guys and bad guys.

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billyb says on Jul 16, 2008, 07:39:

Who would you trust, Kern?

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lpdiver says on Jul 16, 2008, 07:39:

I would bet that it was similar; but, not the real McCoy.

ts

"cook some rice!"

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kalder says on Jul 16, 2008, 07:39:

No- there's bad guys and worse guys. The Yanks, us and the Israelis may be bad, but just look at the opposition...

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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GregYohn says on Jul 16, 2008, 07:39:

Hola!

Having seen a Red Cross Operation happen 1st hand, I can say that their budget hides their waste!

What is called operational expenses is filled full of waste. Over 20 years ago, they would give their people over $30 a day to eat their meals. Buffet restaurants back then cost less than $7a meal !

12VOIP.com gives free calls to Colombia.Greg

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kernow62 says on Jul 16, 2008, 07:41:

billyb that is true, and they are/were war crimes too.

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billyb says on Jul 16, 2008, 07:42:

kalder says on Jul 16 (today): flag

No- there's bad guys and worse guys. The Yanks, us and the Israelis may be bad, but just look at the opposition...


But in the mind of some, as long as opposition is against the ones you mention above, they get a pass on their attrocities.

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Jul 16, 2008, 07:44:

Now PETA and Bridgette Bardot (there is always a French angle) are going to get involved because a Colombian soldier was allegedly hassling a chicken.

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Cerealkiller says on Jul 16, 2008, 07:51:

BB the crime is not against the FARC. Clearly one cannot put the life of those the real Red Cross protects at risk just because a government decided to usurp a neutral organization. Especially when it is the only humanitarian organization trusted by the other side. Think about it, 15 people were rescued but the number of people who are still in the jungle varies from 100 to a whooping 700... if this is indeed the case, what does it say about the government? Does it make it an institution worth trusting (internationally, by Humanitarian and Aid organizations)?
This has been clearly laid out in the Geneva convention, I still am not sure this happened, but come on... is not like the government did not know this was a punishable offense, surely if they were planning this since Pinchao's escape they could've come up with something legal.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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romy says on Jul 16, 2008, 07:54:

remember they don't believe in justice... will a referendum trump an ICC ruling?

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august says on Jul 16, 2008, 07:57:

Should the use of the Red Cross logo be true, I think evaluating its use is pretty closely parallel to evaluating the use of torture in interrogations to attempt to gain information on terrorist activity. Do the ends justify the means?

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tasco66 says on Jul 16, 2008, 07:58:

"At first I was getting a little scared reading it, but then reading that Ingrid said in a press conference that she didn't see any symbols... why would she lie? And if she is lying.... all the Ingrid haters need to acknowledge she is protecting the Colombian govt... hahah I really dont think she'd do that."

That's right Ingrid said there were no Red Cross symbols on the helicopter and there were no signs that this was a Red Cross operation.

Case closed.

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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Cerealkiller says on Jul 16, 2008, 07:59:

hahaha at referendum. I know the government wipes its ass with insitutionality but come on...burning the ships like that? When republicans are on the way out? Doesn't sound very smart.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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tasco66 says on Jul 16, 2008, 08:02:

In a nationally televised news conference, Uribe asked Betancourt whether she had seen any emblems on the helicopter that came to pick her and the other hostages up. She replied that she had not and that the lack of markings had puzzled her.

"After all these years of guerrilla war, we have become experts in identifying who is before us," she answered. "That's why I said it was very strange to me. I said, 'Well, what is this? A helicopter, a white helicopter. Red Cross? No. France? No.' There was no flag. There was nothing; there was no sign anywhere."

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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toneloc24 says on Jul 16, 2008, 08:05:

Who knows what really happened? There's a pic of the supposed emblem used during the rescue mission on the CNN site. It's a pretty serious accusation no matter how you slice it, esp. considering Colombia signed the Geneva Conventions. War crimes? Wow.

Here's the link and story in question.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/07/15/colombia.red.cross/index....

Colombian military used Red Cross emblem in rescue
updated 5:40 a.m. EDT, Wed July 16, 2008

* Photos from miltary source show man wearing bib with Red Cross logo
* Such misuse of symbol could be violation of Geneva Conventions
* Expert says misuse of Red Cross emblem could endanger real aid workers
* Colombia has denied using international symbols in its July 2 rescue ruse

By Karl Penhaul
CNN

BOGOTA, Colombia (CNN) -- Colombian military intelligence used the Red Cross emblem in a rescue operation in which leftist guerrillas were duped into handing over 15 hostages, according to unpublished photographs and video viewed by CNN.

What seems to be part of a red cross is seen on a bib worn by a man involved in the rescue in this official image.

Photographs of the Colombian military intelligence-led team that spearheaded the rescue, shown to CNN by a confidential military source, show one man wearing a bib with the Red Cross symbol. The military source said the three photos were taken moments before the mission took off to persuade the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia rebels to release the hostages to a supposed international aid group for transport to another rebel area.

Such a use of the Red Cross emblem could constitute a "war crime" under the Geneva Conventions and international humanitarian law and could endanger humanitarian workers in the future, according to international legal expert Mark Ellis, executive director of the International Bar Association.

"It is clear that the conventions are very strict regarding use of the symbol because of what it represents: impartiality, neutrality. The fear is that any misuse of the symbol would weaken that neutrality and would weaken the [Red Cross]," Ellis said.

"If you use the emblem in a deceitful way, generally the conventions say it would be a breach. [Based on the information as explained to me,] the way that the images show the Red Cross emblem being used could be distinguished as a war crime, " he added.

The unpublished video and photos of the mission, hailed internationally as a daring success, were shown to CNN by a military source looking to sell the material. CNN declined to buy the material at the price being asked; it was therefore unable to verify the authenticity of the images.

Colombian President Alvaro Uribe and his top generals have categorically denied that international humanitarian symbols were used in the July 2 rescue mission that freed the prized hostages, who included former presidential candidate Ingrid Betancourt, three U.S. military contractors and 11 Colombian police and soldiers.

The hostages had endured years of harsh captivity and deprivation in jungle camps since being captured or kidnapped. Some were held for as long as 10 years.

The rescue ruse also included bogus communications, sent electronically and by human couriers, to convince FARC rebels that superiors were ordering them to hand over hostages to the group posing as aid workers for transfer to another rebel camp.

On Monday, government and military spokesmen reiterated that all logos and emblems used in the operation had been invented and that no genuine symbols had been used.

Misuse of the Red Cross emblem is governed by articles 37, 38 and 85 of Additional Protocol One to the Geneva Conventions, the international rules of war. The articles prohibit "feigning of protected status by the use of ... emblems" of neutral parties and say that such misuses are considered breaches of international humanitarian law that qualify as a "war crime."

Colombia signed the Geneva Conventions in 1949.

That prohibition was put in place to protect the neutrality of the International Committee of the Red Cross and the United Nations in an armed conflict and to guarantee their access to all sides. Use of those emblems by one side of a conflict, for example, could endanger aid workers because those on another side might no longer trust that symbols they see really represent those humanitarian organizations.

An ICRC spokesman in Bogota said the organization had been in "an ongoing confidential dialogue" with the Colombian government about the report that the emblem may have been used in the operation.

Among the photos shown to CNN are some bearing a date stamp of July 2, taken at an unidentified landing site in the jungle alongside a farm house.

In one of those photographs, about 15 members of a Colombian military intelligence-led team pose for a photo alongside a helicopter. One of the members, dressed in a dark red T-shirt or polo shirt, khaki cargo pants and a black-and-white Arab-style scarf, also wears a bib of the type worn by Red Cross workers.

The bib bears the Red Cross symbol in the center of two black circles on a white background. In the space between the two black circles appear in capital letters the French words "Comite International Geneve" (International Committee Geneva).

The same man is standing in the doorway of the helicopter, a Russian-made MI-17 painted white and orange, in another photo. In a third photo, he is pictured walking near the helicopter still wearing the bib.

The same man pictured in the photos can be seen fleetingly in a heavily edited video of the rescue mission issued to the media by the Defense Ministry two days after the hostages were freed. In one frame, part of what appears to be the Red Cross bib is visible as the man wearing it stands in a jungle clearing alongside guerrilla commanders Gerardo Antonio Aguilar, alias Cesar, and Alexander Farfan, known as Enrique Gafas, who were captured in the operation.

The red blur of a Red Cross can be seen and part of the two black circles of the emblem and the capital letters "EVE". Those are also the last three letters of word Geneve (Geneva), which appears on the official ICRC emblem and bib.

In two other frames of the officially released video, the same man, dressed in the same clothes as in the pre-departure photos, can be seen still wearing the predominantly white bib tied at the sides. In those shots the ICRC logo is not visible.

The unpublished video also reveals an emblem that bears the Spanish words "Mision Internacional Humanitaria" (International Humanitarian Mission) and a stylized red bird made up of wavy red lines above two curved branches of blue leaves. In the 3½-minute video of the operation issued by the military, emblems pasted on the side of the rescue helicopter cannot be seen. But in the unpublished video and photos shown to CNN, emblems measuring about one square meter (one square yard) are pasted onto the outside of the chopper.

The same emblem appears on the Web site for Mision Internacional Humanitaria, which describes itself as a non-governmental organization based in Barcelona, Spain, that "works to improve the processes of development to guarantee equality of opportunity for individuals and peoples."

Although the site says the group is registered with the Spanish Interior Ministry and the regional Department of Justice, the site is littered with misspellings, and the telephone number that's listed is 000000000. CNN was unable to contact the group to verify its existence.

The group's Web site could not be accessed early Tuesday.

Additional video clips show how the emblems on the side of the helicopter were stripped off and burned once the rescue mission had been completed. The fate of the bib is not clear from the clips.

In a brief statement Monday, the media spokesman for the Red Cross mission in Bogota reiterated that the group had not been officially involved in the rescue operation.

"The International Committee of the Red Cross cannot confirm that its logo and/or the Red Cross emblem were used," the spokesman said. "The ICRC maintains an ongoing confidential dialogue with the Colombian authorities on a variety of humanitarian issues, including news reports that the Red Cross emblem may have been used in this operation."

Uribe, Colombian Defense Minister Juan Manuel Santos, armed forces chief Gen. Freddy Padilla and army chief Gen. Mario Montoya all categorically stated immediately after the rescue operation that no genuine international humanitarian emblems had been used or misused.

In a nationally televised news conference, Uribe asked Betancourt whether she had seen any emblems on the helicopter that came to pick her and the other hostages up. She replied that she had not and that the lack of markings had puzzled her.

"After all these years of guerrilla war, we have become experts in identifying who is before us," she answered. "That's why I said it was very strange to me. I said, 'Well, what is this? A helicopter, a white helicopter. Red Cross? No. France? No.' There was no flag. There was nothing; there was no sign anywhere."

In the official video released by the military, the man wearing what appeared to be a Red Cross bib is standing alongside Betancourt and another rescued hostage just before they board the rescue helicopter. That is in the part of the video in which the logo is blurred and not readily identifiable.

Both of Colombia's two main guerrilla armies, the FARC and the smaller National Liberation Army, have been known to misuse the Red Cross symbol, sometimes transporting fighters in ambulances. The Colombian government frequently makes international denunciations of rebel violations of international humanitarian law.

The International Committee of the Red Cross and the Red Cross and Red Crescent societies around the world are highly respected international and national organizations, especially for their work in combat zones. Their statutes establish a position of strict neutrality in a conflict, which guarantees their ability to bring humanitarian aid to all sides in a conflict. Other national and international aid organizations do not have such strict rules on neutrality and operating procedures.

International humanitarian law, partly enshrined in the Geneva Conventions, is seen as a systematic attempt to establish certain rules of war and limit the savagery of conflict. The laws seek to set clear distinctions between warring factions, neutral parties and civilians and what rights and responsibilities each of these has in a combat zone.

Additional Protocol One and the articles referring to the misuse of international emblems technically refers to international armed conflicts. But signatory nations as well as the International Committee of the Red Cross also consider it a benchmark for internal conflicts, such as the four-decade-old war in Colombia.

Other photos shown to CNN indicate how little was done to disguise equipment used in the rescue. The two military MI-17 helicopters used in the rescue were repainted white and orange without removing armor-plated panels positioned around the outside of the cockpit. Another shot shows the pilots wearing what appear to be military pilots' helmets that have been repainted white with orange or red V-shaped stripes. The helmets still have prominent mounts on the front used for attaching night vision goggles.
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One other video clip shows the two guerrilla commanders, who had boarded the helicopter with their hostages, carried out of the chopper over the shoulders of two men the CNN source identified as plain-clothes military personnel. The rebels were blindfolded and partially stripped. As they were dumped on the ground, they appeared groggy and stunned.

Before the departure of the operation, two soldiers in camouflage uniforms can be seen on the farm where the helicopters were staged, chasing a chicken and stunning it with a stun gun.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

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kalder says on Jul 16, 2008, 08:07:

Billy- you're 100% on that. You can be the most corrupt, murderous, brutal tyrant imaginable. But as long as you rant at the US, UK or Israel, a whole lot of people are going to give you a pass.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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august says on Jul 16, 2008, 08:10:

Um, yeah, that "nationally televised news conference" was the most awkward event I´ve ever seen on TV. I´ll be damned if there was no coaching involved there.

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tasco66 says on Jul 16, 2008, 08:13:

"Um, yeah, that "nationally televised news conference" was the most awkward event I´ve ever seen on TV. I´ll be damned if there was no coaching involved there"

Yeah right, Ingrid is a well know puppet of Uribe, Jajajaja

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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romy says on Jul 16, 2008, 08:14:

It doesn't say who would file charges though? what 'military' would give video to CNN? is Bush mad at Uribe for not inviting him to feria de las flores?

Now that I think of it... who would hand this video over to CNN? it has to be a somewhat reliable source because CNN would hardly go on a limb to go against the Colombian government.

btw, if there were no symbols on the chopper... how did the FARC know it was 'friendly'?
I hate all this BS that we are fed with....

How funny is "Before the departure of the operation, two soldiers in camouflage uniforms can be seen on the farm where the helicopters were staged, chasing a chicken and stunning it with a stun gun." My goodness.... kids in the park hahha at least our tax pesos are being fruitful.

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billyb says on Jul 16, 2008, 08:17:

spare me all this handringing over the violation of the purity of the redcross. throught the last century every fighting force has respected the redcross when it was convenient for them and violated them when it wasn't, and you would have to be a chump if you thought otherwise. But why am i not surprised that now there is an uproar by the left when it was used by a democracy against terrorism and not a peep out them when Hezbollah and hams continually abuse the red crescents "neutrality"?, why??? nevermind, we kbow why.

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lpdiver says on Jul 16, 2008, 08:18:

"International humanitarian law, partly enshrined in the Geneva Conventions, is seen as a systematic attempt to establish certain rules of war and limit the savagery of conflict. The laws seek to set clear distinctions between warring factions, neutral parties and civilians and what rights and responsibilities each of these has in a combat zone."

While a lofty goal; I suppose, principles such as these only prolong the event of war and end up causing MORE misery and loss of life.

ts

"cook some rice!"

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romy says on Jul 16, 2008, 08:19:

yes, civilization and humanitarian measures "only prolong the event of war and end up causing MORE misery and loss of life"..........

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tasco66 says on Jul 16, 2008, 08:24:

If this continues there will soon be more conspiracy theories about this rescue than for 9/11..

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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billyb says on Jul 16, 2008, 08:30:

All I know is that the "MISERY" of those 15 people was cut short, not prolonged, but hey as long as we can feel good about ourselves talking about lofty humanitarian ideals, who cares about the REAL suffering of the hostages?

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romy says on Jul 16, 2008, 08:31:

so what's the game plan on the hundreds that are still in there?

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Cerealkiller says on Jul 16, 2008, 08:31:

Colombia is a signatory to the geneva convention and there is no civil conflict in Colombia (uribe's words, not mine)... and now people come to say no (alleged) crime was committed? Come on, it doesn't take a brain cell to figure that one out.
Honestly, I am very happy to see the 15 people return to their families and recover their humanity but that doesn't keep me from seeing things clearly. Norms are there to be followed and that is that.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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Rikito says on Jul 16, 2008, 08:44:

toneloc24 why did you repeat the post and link that was made in the original post?

All in all, I would be willing to slap Uribe's hand and call him a nasty nasty boy for using a ruse to free people the ICRC has failed to get out. But only after the Swiss and the ICRC) they are one and the same folks) turn over that useless little prick. Paul Gontard for giving 500,000 U.S. dollars, to the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) a while back.

When you are war against an aggressor you are free to do anything you want to win the war. In battle you must do everything to beat, annihilate, destroy and do whatever you can to, make your enemy feel hopeless and defeated....anything to destroy your enemy.

It is not life that matters, but the journey.

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billyb says on Jul 16, 2008, 08:48:

"so what's the game plan on the hundreds that are still in there?"

What's your suggestion? Count on Gontard to get them out? LOL>

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juancegomez says on Jul 16, 2008, 09:12:

As I've commented elsewhere, the specifics seem to be that the symbol was misused by one man (the guy who was pretending to be a doctor, perhaps?), not by the entire team or the helicopter (which, according to CNN, had a different emblem linked to a “Misión Internacional Humanitaria" NGO, supposedly based in Barcelona, but whose existence CNN couldn’t verify…doesn’t sound like a real organization, in other words).

Logically, such misuse during the operation would still be a violation of international law (and if so, a possible war crime, though one of the cleanest such crimes I can imagine).

As such, I suppose it could be prosecuted (proportionally, I would expect: there should be a difference between falsely representing a Red Cross agent, which is what seems to be the case on the surface, and falsely presenting the entire operation as a Red Cross one, which doesn’t appear to be the issue per se, at least not without extrapolation).Which also requires establishing responsibilities.

And while this is just a formality, right now the only specific evidence we have is a frame in the edited video most of us should have already seen. That's what's on the website.

CNN apparently had brief access to more materials, showing allegedly the same man still wearing a Red Cross bib, but declined to buy them from the source. In other words, they no longer have it in their possession.

In any case, it seems that the Red Cross has been confidentially talking to the Colombian government about this, and they should be able to decide whether to prosecute this violation of international law.

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Gator says on Jul 16, 2008, 09:40:

"What seems to be part of a red cross is seen on a bib worn by a man involved in the rescue in this official image."
Seems to BE? Either it is or it is not.

"...according to international legal expert Mark Ellis, executive director of the International Bar Association."
Who the hell is Mark Ellis and what is the "International Bar Association/"


"...were shown to CNN by a military source looking to sell the material. CNN declined to buy the material at the price being asked; it was therefore UNABLE TO VARIFY THE AUTHENTIVITY (emphasis added) of the images."
That about says it all.

"In two other frames of the officially released video, the same man, dressed in the same clothes as in the pre-departure photos, can be seen still wearing the predominantly white bib tied at the sides. In those shots the ICRC logo is not visible."

Of course no explanation offered for this annomoly.

"The hostages had endured years of harsh captivity and deprivation in jungle camps since being captured or kidnapped. Some were held for as long as 10 years."
Ah how soon we forget!

Thank God! Some of us can see through this and not sit weeping around the camp fire singing "Kumbaya." Ever notice how closely FARC uniforms resemble Colombian army uniforms? Nah! But these are "freedom fighters" so that subterfuge is OK.

"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

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juancegomez says on Jul 16, 2008, 09:41:

News flash via Caracol…apparently President Uribe has confirmed this and someone, he or Juan Manuel Santos, has officially presented excuses (to the Red Cross?). More information will be available later, I suppose.

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Jul 16, 2008, 09:44:

The story is also on the front page of El Tiempo.

http://www.eltiempo.com/

"Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practice to deceive"

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tasco66 says on Jul 16, 2008, 09:44:

Oficial que participó en rescate de secuestrados sí usó emblema del CICR, admitió presidente Uribe

El mandatario dijo que uno de los militares que participó en la operación reconoció que por nerviosismo, a última hora y "contradiciendo órdenes oficiales" se puso un peto con el símbolo humanitario.

http://www.eltiempo.com/colombia/politica/2008-07-16/oficial-que-parti...

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Jul 16, 2008, 09:45:

Tinto (Moderator) says on Jul 16 (today): flag

Now PETA and Bridgette Bardot (there is always a French angle) are going to get involved because a Colombian soldier was allegedly hassling a chicken.

JAJAJAJA

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jack_jason says on Jul 16, 2008, 10:22:

"oh well, typical euro BS"

I agree

This is just spanglish, please do not correct me

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lpdiver says on Jul 16, 2008, 10:26:

PETA= People Eating Tasty Animals...no?

ts

"cook some rice!"

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juancegomez says on Jul 16, 2008, 10:27:

Colombian president says Red Cross symbol was used in hostage rescue mission


The Associated Press
Published: July 16, 2008

BOGOTA, Colombia: Colombia's president says a Red Cross symbol was worn by a member of the military rescue mission that freed 15 hostages from leftist rebels.

President Alvaro Uribe says his government has apologized to the International Red Cross for the incident, which he said was not authorized.

A team of Colombian military intelligence agents posing as members of a fake international humanitarian group airlifted the hostages to safety on July 2. Those rescued included French-Colombian politician Ingrid Betancourt and three U.S. military contractors.

Uribe said in a speech Wednesday that a single member of the rescue team got nervous and affixed a cloth International Red Cross symbol on his vest.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/07/16/news/Colombia-Red-Cross.php

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lpdiver says on Jul 16, 2008, 10:29:

Well that is stand up. He should be found guilty and fined steeply. Oh something in the range of say ten pesos?

ts

"cook some rice!"

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tasco66 says on Jul 16, 2008, 10:33:

Another storm in a teacup made up by our Euro friends

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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sloopskipper says on Jul 16, 2008, 11:02:

Now Uribe admits it: (duplicate)

Uribe: One official used Red Cross symbols in Betancourt rescue

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/219434,uribe-one-official-used...

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SUERTE GRINGO says on Jul 16, 2008, 11:06:

Uribe uses the Red Cross for political gains, placing Red Cross workers lifes in jeopardy. If I were the Red Cross I would be OUTRAGED!

“If you're gonna eat your crackers in bed, you're gonna have to sleep with crumbs."

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Jul 16, 2008, 11:10:

"He feared for his life, and he took out the piece of cloth with the Red Cross symbols that was in his pocket," Uribe said.

------------

Unless the soldier's name is Betsy Ross, I wonder if all the soldiers were provided with Red Cross symbols as part of a contingency plan. That would be a big no-no. Gringoloid, can you check out the Lone Soldier theory?

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juancegomez says on Jul 16, 2008, 11:15:

SUERTE GRINGO : You can hardly say, especially at this point, that this was "for political gain", when the symbol was only worn by one individual, not by the entire team nor by the helicopters. Read the CNN report yourself.

While the government's version of why it was worn could be questioned, that doesn't mean that the symbol was key to the operation (when only one guy was wearing it? doubtful) or that it needed to have been premeditated by evil Uribe, sitting in his office while smoking a cigar or what have you.

Tinto: Considering that there were only three "medical personnel", one doctor and two nurses, why would the reporters, fictional NGO officials and pilots need to have Red Cross symbols? Makes little sense, especially since, again even CNN says, there was a completely different symbol being used on the helo.

Perhaps the contingency was to give those symbols to the medical personnel, but even that's a bit of a leap, since CNN didn't see anyone else wearing it in their review of the unpublished footage.

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SUERTE GRINGO says on Jul 16, 2008, 11:22:

The symbol being used in any manner by any one individual is a complete violation, period. Uribe's popularity support in Colombia did not take a negative hit after the rescue mission, political benefits nonetheless were a direct result.

Tinto,
I always carry a Red Cross and a Swatsika band with me at all times, just in case.

“If you're gonna eat your crackers in bed, you're gonna have to sleep with crumbs."

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Jul 16, 2008, 11:26:

JCG, Yes, it's a leap. The details and motivations are unknown so I'm speculating.

Unfortunately for Colombia, Uribe lied and then was forced to fess up when a soldier wanted to sell his story to a big media company. As one of today's stories said "it takes some shine off an operation that was advertised as perfect."

These ends vs. the means debates are extra difficult when you're dealing with non-state actors that didn't sign up for the Geneva Conventions. Setting aside all the heat and hyperbole about George Bush for a moment, the US lower courts and the Supreme Court are struggling to navigate some of the same issues and strike the right balance. Interesting discussions, but hell if I know what the answer is.

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jorgegdiaz says on Jul 16, 2008, 11:33:

docwilliam says on Jul 16 (today): flag

"Someone please tell me exactly when the FARC signed on to the Geneva Convention."

http://anncol.eu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1004&Itemid...
I was wondering exactly the same thing when I was reading their reactions on the above link. Hipocrisy would be the word?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/07/15/colombia.red.cross/index....
Can anyone see any red cross sign ? I watched the video on RCN news at 12:30 (while eating a suculent pork chop and lentils for $4500....by the way...) and wasn`t able to identify anything ! Well, Uribe already recognized the mistake so there`s no point.

Whether it was planned or just an isolated person used the bib b/c of fear, as it`s claimed by the president, it is going to backfire on the remainning hostages, making potential humanitarian missions (has FARC ever allowed them?) more difficult to help hostages.

So question. Will FARC still claim the jailers are traitors, were they duped? From my point of view, how can one be bribed by the Red Cross?

"To err is human - and to blame it on a computer is even more so."Robert Orben

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august says on Jul 16, 2008, 11:36:

Tinto, I´m going to have to agree. It doesn´t add up that only a single soldier would bring a red cross band from home, just in case things looked sticky. Where DID those bands come from Sr. Uribe?

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tasco66 says on Jul 16, 2008, 11:41:

Tinto, you seem to be jumping to your own conclusions a bit too fast.

First you said that the Swiss negotiator was an ambassador, which was not true. Then you said he was some sort of diplomat, which again was not true, and now you are accusing Uribe of lying without any proof.

How could Uribe have known that a single member of the rescue team got nervous and affixed a cloth International Red Cross symbol on his vest?

They must have made an investigation on this after the allegations of the CNN report.

As a mod you should get your facts straight before posting, and not act like our old friend buggy

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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juancegomez says on Jul 16, 2008, 11:51:

SUERTE GRINGO: "The symbol being used in any manner by any one individual is a complete violation, period."

I haven't argued otherwise, period. Only made some observations.

"Uribe's popularity support in Colombia did not take a negative hit after the rescue mission, political benefits nonetheless were a direct result."

Ahh, but there's a difference between premeditated used of the symbol for that purpose and other options, isn't there? You're interpreting that information, I'm doing the same.

Tinto: "Unfortunately for Colombia, Uribe lied and then was forced to fess up when a soldier wanted to sell his story to a big media company. As one of today's stories said "it takes some shine off an operation that was advertised as perfect."

True, but there's always the issue of whether he knew about it beforehand or not, as far as how much of a lie that is. The result is similar, in any case.

" Interesting discussions, but hell if I know what the answer is."

Nor do I...

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Jul 16, 2008, 11:51:

Tasco, If you feel like Googling, you can dig up a story(ies) about the Swiss negotiator being referred to as a diplomat. I don't care to because:

- I know what I read
- I know the journalist could have made a mistake in translation (English, Spanish and one of several languages used in Switzerland)
- Most reputable papers run 'amplifications and corrections' sections. On the internet, they're much harder to find

You posted something that contained a blurb from a Swiss govt. press release saying the Professor was not an employee of the government. Quibblers could say he was a paid consultant or operating under cover, but I'll take it at face value. Thank you for the correction.

You can also Google numerous news accounts from mainstream or alternative media where the Colombian government, including VP Santos, denied that any symbols of the type being discussed here were used. They also disputed the CNN coverage when the story broke.

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robi666 says on Jul 16, 2008, 11:53:

Why did that officer bring the cloth with Red Cross symbol with him on the helicopter?
He probably imagined that he was going to be nervous...

Something smells...

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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jorgegdiaz says on Jul 16, 2008, 11:57:

I agree Robi, something smells funny.
A guy over lunch watching the news said, "what are they going to do then, return the prisioners?"

"To err is human - and to blame it on a computer is even more so."Robert Orben

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tasco66 says on Jul 16, 2008, 12:02:

"You can also Google numerous news accounts from mainstream or alternative media where the Colombian government, including VP Santos, denied that any symbols of the type being discussed here were used"

Yes and you can also google Ingrid's account (and video) where she said there were no Red Cross symbol used. Why are you calling Uribe and Santos liars and not Ingrid? You are just another Uribe basher with zero credibility.

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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juancegomez says on Jul 16, 2008, 12:03:

Certainly, he didn't have the symbol there for no reason at all, whether it was a contingency he organized or part of the plan from the beginning.

As for returning the prisoners...I'd only imagine FARC or ANNCOL seriously asking for that.

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SUERTE GRINGO says on Jul 16, 2008, 12:08:

There is absolutely no justification for the blatant abuse of the Red Cross organization.

I guess this is to be expected when it's a 100% Colombian Operation.

“If you're gonna eat your crackers in bed, you're gonna have to sleep with crumbs."

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Jul 16, 2008, 12:12:

Tasco, Now you're the one jumping to conclusions. First, politicians lie all the time. Second, it's well documented that witnesses, especially during moments of trauma, don't have anywhere close to perfect recall. Third, I don't care for Ingrid and have written on this website that she ought to go spend a month with her family and stay out of the spotlight. Fourth, Uribe and Santos through timing, luck, skill and hard work have done some really good things for Colombia and Colombians. I give them their due. But they don't get a free pass - their "ilk" are responsible for a lot of Colombia's problems and their Truth and Justice Plan and the paraco connections are a disgrace.

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juancegomez says on Jul 16, 2008, 12:12:

Explanations are not justifications. Proportionality must be considered when any punishment is to be applied, as not all violations are equal under national or international law and proper responsibilities must be determined.

And for those wondering, there have already been cases where FARC has violated the protection of actual Red Cross vehicles, not as an excuse, but in order to highlight that such risks already existed before this incident.

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tasco66 says on Jul 16, 2008, 12:15:

"I guess this is to be expected when it's a 100% Colombian Operation."

Yep on the other hand if it had been a 100% US operation they would have humiliated and tortured the Farc soldiers:

Violations were 'tantamount to torture'

Red Cross report Some coalition units routinely engaged in brutality, humiliation and excessive use of force, says damning ICRC study

The main violations

The main violations, which are described in the ICRC report and presented confidentially to the CF, include:

• Brutality against protected persons upon capture and initial custody, sometimes causing death or serious injury;

• Absence of notification of arrest of persons to their families;

• Physical or psychological coercion during interrogation to secure information;

• Prolonged solitary confinement in cells devoid of daylight;

• Excessive and disproportionate use of force, resulting in death or injury.

Serious problems of conduct:

• Seizure and confiscation of prisoners' private belongings;

• Exposure of detainees to dangerous tasks;

• Holding detainees in places where they are not protected from shelling.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/may/08/iraq

The Colombian soldiers must have lost their US torture manuals somewhere along the route...

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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toneloc24 says on Jul 16, 2008, 12:56:

Rikito - "toneloc24 why did you repeat the post and link that was made in the original post?"

Apparently, people weren't even linking to the article and were just commenting. Hence, some misguided discussion. I figured I'd put it here ENTIRELY, and let folks read what the article actually stated. It laid out in definite terms why such actions would indisputably be considered a "war crime." Much too serious an accusation to just gloss over.

And apparently, the story held weight.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

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kernow62 says on Jul 16, 2008, 13:33:

I don't understand, everyone is saying typical EuroBS, well the CNN is the one that brought this up right? Aren't they US based? The Red Cross happens to be based in Europe, so what. Secondly, if you don't like the Geneva Convention and don't want to abide by it, simply remove yourself. When you agree to something then it should be upheld and if you don't think you can mange, don't sign up.

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billyb says on Jul 16, 2008, 13:34:

I take it all back, you have convinced me the rescue was a bad thing, as it might now force the FARC to mistreat the hostages in retaliation, and they may even chain them to trees by their necks.

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kernow62 says on Jul 16, 2008, 13:36:

Glad you haven't forgotten sarcasm as a weapon. One of these days I will give you a few pointers. ;-)

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billyb says on Jul 16, 2008, 13:39:

"Secondly, if you don't like the Geneva Convention and don't want to abide by it, simply remove yourself."

I have done just that. I told them to take me off the list. And CNN might as well be euro ;)

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kernow62 says on Jul 16, 2008, 13:52:

CNN is as Euro as hot dogs and apple pie, oh wait they are European too. Doh!

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dwmte7 says on Jul 16, 2008, 14:22:

the first report/photo was taken before take off. show the bib/armband...

then ingrid says she saw no emblems. what did the americans say?

then uribe apologizes for the error of one individual.

the matter now lies in the icc of the geneva conventions...right? we'll have to wait and see how it plays out.

at first, like many others, i felt wtf...it saved X # of lives. but the reality as many others pointed out...it's the rules of war and we've all signed on. they're irrevocable. you can't use when it's convenient and ignore when it's not. this is the truth.

i think we should return the hostages, apologize and ask farc's forgiveness, go past GO, don't collect $200.00 and then, stand in the corner.

dwmte

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SUERTE GRINGO says on Jul 16, 2008, 14:41:

What's done is done, but let this be a lesson to all the young Farc members out there, that in war there are no rules!

“If you're gonna eat your crackers in bed, you're gonna have to sleep with crumbs."

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juancegomez says on Jul 16, 2008, 15:01:

SUERTE GRINGO: Considering FARC's own behavior, I don't believe this will be much of a lesson, to be honest, if that's your point.

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billyb says on Jul 16, 2008, 15:30:

BTW, the next time one of the US or England's enemies respect the Geneva Convention's rules, it will be the FIRST time.. Let's take a look at their enemies over the last 100 years and see if we can find any practitioners of "ethical" warfare. Russia (by proxy)? wasn't there a book about the Gulag Archipelago? just for starters. Japan? Can you say Bataan or Nanking? Vietnam? oh yeah. China? Tibet, anyone? Korea? Maybe romy will buy that one. The Taliban and Al Qaeda? Yes, if you find beheading innocents and videotaping them ethical. hmmmm, can anybody think of just one?

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billyb says on Jul 16, 2008, 17:50:

CNN is the same outfit that offered Saddam favorable coverage if he let their correspondents stay in baghdad after he ordered foreign news orgs out.

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billyb says on Jul 16, 2008, 17:58:

In case you doubt.

http://www.pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/archives/015448.php

http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/cnnexec.htm

'Saddam's Propaganda' at CNN
........Collins, who served as a CNN correspondent in Baghdad in 1993, also criticized CNN's chief news executive Eason Jordan following Jordan's confession that he had withheld from viewers numerous details of Saddam Hussein's atrocities over the last 10 years in order to protect news sources and maintain access in Iraq..................."
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/5/1/160050.shtml

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Gator says on Jul 16, 2008, 19:12:

SUERTE GRINGO "There is absolutely no justification for the blatant abuse of the Red Cross organization."

Why don't you launch a full attack on Johnson and Johnson for using it on their first aid boxes.
In watching all kinds of TV coverage the only time I saw a quick glimpse of a red cross was AFTER they were airborne. Hardly "blatant abuse."
The main authority to use the red cross/red crescent symbol is not by any international red cross organization (ICRC or IFRC) or national red cross society but by the parties to the Geneva conventions (or any party to a conflict, since the protocol includes civil wars within its ambit) to designate military medical facilities and units. In fact, in both wartime and peacetime the national red cross societies can use the symbol only with the approval of their governments. The same applies to the other symbols provided for under the conventions and the protocol: decisions on where to display them is the responsibility of the authorities of the governments who signed the convention or of the parties to a conflict.

The big question is, of course, does FARC fall under the Geneva conventions. If they do FARC violated about every section of the Geneva conventions. On 15 July, FARC guerrillas in Meta department kidnapped the department's former governor, Alan Jara, while he was traveling in a clearly marked United Nations vehicle. On April 11, 2002 the FARC kidnapped 13 Colombian lawmakers from a government building in Cali, Valle and the list goes on ad nauseum

"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

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MitchAlvarez says on Jul 16, 2008, 22:53:

lo unico que no me gusto de la mission fue que no mataron o arrestaron a todos los guerrilleros que quedaron en esas selvas. me importa un culo lo que tuvieron que hacer para rescatar a todos......... uribe es un bacan y lo respaldo 100%

"Ingrid callate la jeta!! Stay in France"

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Dolfi says on Jul 17, 2008, 00:59:

So next time Uribes paraco-friends may use the red cross too if it suits them, why not?

The problem is, tha vehicles carrying the red cross are generally considered neutral and are not shot in armed conflicts. This might change soon...

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Cerealkiller says on Jul 17, 2008, 01:12:

Well clearly most people here cannot see the difference between the government and the FARC...so if the FARC is not subject t the geneva convention the government should not apply its principles? Really? What would that make the government, an enemy of humanity just like the FARC perhaps? Come on, a government cannot under any circumstance act/behave like its illegal opponent. As a legitimate organization it has the obligation to respect international conventions and humanitarian law. Legitimacy isn't the result of popular approval...there are duties and responsabilities...its Politics 101.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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tomtom33 says on Jul 17, 2008, 03:34:

And there is a difference between using one small red cross as part of a ruse when both sides had forewarning of the encounter and using the red cross as a shield traversing unknown territory. The red cross was not displayed on any helicopter.

All this hang-wringing is nuts.

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lpdiver says on Jul 17, 2008, 03:46:

Also it MAY be the lone independent act of an individual. I'd hate to be judged as a nation on the acts of an individual.

ts

"cook some rice!"

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Monpirri says on Jul 17, 2008, 03:47:

High Five to Billyb!
"Kernow (good morning BTW), the red cross and its muslim cousin the red crescent have been used for ages by the bad guys to transport fighters and weapons with impunity. And the only time the "ethical" ones get in an uproar about the abuse, is when the tables are turned and it is used against the
terrorists."

"oh well, typical euro BS. They (the Swiss) are just pissed that Uribe fired their negotiator for being a bagman for the FARC. I'd like to see how they would frame it. "these people are war criminals because they lied in order to rescue 15 people who had been tortured, raped and chained to trees in the jungle for up to 10 years", I'd lke to see a jury convicct them."

Asi se habla papa!


MAC

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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papiChulo says on Jul 17, 2008, 04:39:

all's fair in love, war and business... ;)

you'll never go before your time

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billyb says on Jul 17, 2008, 06:17:

" What would that make the government, an enemy of humanity"

Isn't that what the leftwingers and FARC lovers accuse the Colombian gov of already?

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Gator says on Jul 17, 2008, 06:30:

Personally I would not care if he wore the official emblem of the Grand Poo Baa of the Exalted Order of Tree Living Ground Squirrels (known through out the world as EOTLGS) and dressed as one of the Little Sisters of the Poor as long as those people were rescued.

Some posters feel the only fact that matters is the foundational fact that they can only feel what is right, so if a fact happens to contradict there feelings, obviously that fact must be wrong. Argue that all sources are equal and that therefore the contrary source is irrelevant.

Absolvi meam animam

"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

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Rikito says on Jul 17, 2008, 06:44:

que???

It is not life that matters, but the journey.

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webmanco says on Jul 17, 2008, 06:46:

I guess two wrongs does make one right.

Where is Desi?

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Jul 17, 2008, 06:51:

Looks like the International Red Cross accepted the apology. I wonder if the soldier will be fired or demoted? I'm no military expert, but I'm pretty sure disobeying an order is a serious offense.

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billyb says on Jul 17, 2008, 06:52:

I wonder what part of the Geneva convention was being followed when the FARC lobbed the gas canisters into the church in Boyaja? And verely a peep from the same ones now outraged by a little patch, makes you wonder about their motivations.

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Monpirri says on Jul 17, 2008, 06:53:

In the US army or in Air force sometimes generals or lower rank officers undergo congressional hearings for wrong doing and they do not get squad, in many cases they walk scott-free.

I am pretty sure this also happens in the corrupt European military.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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SUERTE GRINGO says on Jul 17, 2008, 07:01:

Tinto (Moderator) says on Jul 17 (today): flag

Looks like the International Red Cross accepted the apology. I wonder if the soldier will be fired or demoted?

I would guess promoted for his role in the scheme, overall it was a great success.

“If you're gonna eat your crackers in bed, you're gonna have to sleep with crumbs."

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tasco66 says on Jul 17, 2008, 08:08:

There has be no war in history where the Geneva Convention's rules were not violated.

And I am not even talking about some soldier holding a Red Cross symbol...

Wars bring the worst out of human beings

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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tasco66 says on Jul 17, 2008, 08:48:

This one is for Dolfi:

GERMANS' VIOLATION OF RED CROSS PROVED; British Capture Ambulance, Marked with Geneva Insignia, Which Contains Ammunition.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9A03E3D81539E13ABC4E51D...

Now tell us which is the worst violation, the Colombia one or the German one?

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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tasco66 says on Jul 17, 2008, 09:02:

Now this is what I would call a violation of the Geneva Conventions regarding the Red Cross:

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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FRANCO2000 says on Jul 17, 2008, 13:33:

did the united states have involment in this rescue operation? i keep hearing that from difrent sources, and wouldnt that make them guilty of the same war crime that cnn is acussing the colombian government?, i would like to read some opinions.

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Lowell says on Jul 17, 2008, 13:41:

? What rights does a prisoner have under the "Geneva Convention"? Did the FARC abide by those rules?

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

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tomtom33 says on Jul 17, 2008, 13:55:

Of course the US indirectly assisted. Since a Colombian soldier acting on his own displayed a small red cross, the US ought to be condemned worldwide for this war crime. Why didn't I think of this first, Franco?

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lpdiver says on Jul 17, 2008, 14:09:

Colombia #&$*#$ up and used the logo

Colombia apologized for this error.

The Red Cross accepted the apology.

Gee I wish all the conflicts in my life could be resolved in this manner.

ts

"cook some rice!"

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FRANCO2000 says on Jul 17, 2008, 14:52:

yeah..they #$%# at on purpose, but who cares, i really believe that it was all worth it, ....pretty much every other country in the world does this, lets put it to rest and really not look at a mistake but look at the end result that saved all these lifes.

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Dolfi says on Jul 18, 2008, 01:09:

If international law is only binding as long as nobody breaks it, what is it for at all?

OK, so let´s all open up small Guantánamos and put americans into it withouty any judicial procedure. And let´s attack the USA preemtively before they feel pissed off by some country that never harmed them.

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tasco66 says on Jul 18, 2008, 04:34:

Dolfi, how about we open up Buchenwald again and put you in it withouty any judicial procedure ?

And let´s attack Germany preemtively before they start another WW.

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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lpdiver says on Jul 18, 2008, 04:57:

"OK, so let´s all open up small Guantánamos and put americans into it withouty any judicial procedure."

Isn't that pretty much what the FARC did my friend?

ts

"cook some rice!"

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tasco66 says on Jul 18, 2008, 05:48:

"OK, so let´s all open up small Guantánamos and put americans into it withouty any judicial procedure."

Isn't that pretty much what the FARC did my friend?

Yep, but when it' s the Farc or the Germans, he sees no problem….

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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billyb says on Jul 18, 2008, 06:29:

jajaj, never thought it would happen, but dolty makes the bugster seem semi-intelligent.

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romy says on Jul 18, 2008, 06:53:

I don't think it's hard to understand

FARC= Ilegal, criminals... their essence is already criminal enough, nobody has defended FARC. FARC doesn't even matter in this issue.

Government=Legal (though Colombia's is ilegitimate... is that why they don't have to follow laws?), but I think should follow laws, no?

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billyb says on Jul 18, 2008, 06:56:

What laws? Whose laws? Name one organization at war that follows the rules when it's not convenient to them? Just one. The only rule that really matters, is to win the war.

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tasco66 says on Jul 18, 2008, 06:58:

"nobody has defended FARC"

Say what?

Have you heard of Chavez? What about all the Euro lefties?

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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billyb says on Jul 18, 2008, 07:03:

And let's not forget our favorite little rodent, Ortega.

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tasco66 says on Jul 18, 2008, 07:07:

"FARC= Ilegal, criminals... their essence is already criminal enough, nobody has defended FARC'

Romy, which planet do you live on?

"Venezuela’s President Hugo Chávez has made the surprising announcement, almost immediately ratified by the Venezuelan Congress, that the Revol