Colombian Military Has Problems

makopp5 (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 1, 2009, 04:42:

It´s very interesting how some people only see negative side from Uribe and the military. Desi I missed you comment on this article which is very positive for the colombian army and plan Colombia.
http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/post/army-seizes-large-guerrilla-arse...

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tasco66 says on May 1, 2009, 04:49:

Desi is beginning to sound more and more like Byron and pobrecito...

Maybe they should start a Colombia disinformation club...

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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JGD (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 1, 2009, 05:34:

Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 1, 2009, 06:02:

There's only one thing worse than a corrupt soldier of the legitimate army of a country and that would be a corrupt guerrilla or terrorist. To carry a gun implies power over life and death of other people and that the legitimate army has been corrupted is a very bad omen.

There is already a thread running about the first part of my post; I will concentrate to discuss the second part instead. The things like this blatant violation of human rights, the case of falsos positives or the murder of young men presented as guerrilla for bonuses and the gunning down of a police unit by the High Mountain Battalion in Cali (Jamundí) are all manifestations of the same ailment: corruption within the military institutions of a country, where an extremely questionable policy of offering bounty money for dead people or or body parts is sanctioned and encouraged by Mr. Uribe's government.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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tasco66 says on May 1, 2009, 06:09:

“Desi is right. The ARMY has problems. One of them is called FARC...”

Yep, but the army has done a good job at solving this problem recently. However this seems to have has upset the usual PBH suspects…who will post any ill conceived propaganda to sully the army's achievements...

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 1, 2009, 06:15:

"who will post any ill conceived propaganda "
...
that's news, tasco. It's all over Colombian media. El Pais and El Tiempo. But your knee-jerk reaction is too predictable. You don't even read the posts, just talk garbage.

The soldiers are doing their JOB chasing the subversives.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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tasco66 says on May 1, 2009, 06:21:

I think desi has problems...

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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webmanco says on May 1, 2009, 06:56:

'Falsos positivos' de Soacha ya han provocado orden de captura contra 17 militares

http://www.eltiempo.com/colombia/justicia/falsos-positivos-de-soacha-y...




De hecho, ayer, en Medellín, el CTI capturó a nueve soldados profesionales sindicados de participar en dos asesinatos fuera de combate en Antioquia y Sucre. Las víctimas también fueron reportadas como irregulares abatidos.


Las víctimas fueron enterradas en fosas comunes como NN. La Fiscalía las identificó meses después.

Los coroneles Wilson Javier Castro, comandante del Batallón Rafael Reyes, y Álvaro Diego Tamayo Hoyos, del Batallón Santander, son los oficiales de más alto rango del Ejército involucrados.


Los dos oficiales fueron objeto de retiro discrecional hace seis meses, a causa del escándalo.

Castro le dio luz verde a la operación, que terminó con la muerte del taxista Daniel Pesca y de su amigo Eduardo Garzón, en una vereda de Cimitarra (Santander) el 5 de marzo del año pasado. Luego, autorizó el pago de 1,5 millones de pesos a un supuesto informante que habría dado los datos de la guerrilla en la zona.

Tamayo era jefe del Batallón Francisco de Paula Santander, que opera en Ocaña y que ha sido uno de los más salpicados por el escándalo. Anoche, agentes del CTI lo capturaron en Ibagué. Él era el jefe del subteniente Luis Francisco Ríos y de ocho soldados profesionales que fueron los primeros militares capturados por las muertes de los jóvenes de Soacha.

Como lo reveló EL TIEMPO hace dos semanas, la confesión de un reclutador y de un suboficial que participó en los crímenes fue clave. En total son ya 18 los militares con orden de captura por el caso.



http://www.eltiempo.com/colombia/justicia/falsos-positivos-de-soacha-y...

No hay extremo cierto o verdadero, porque los extremos opacan, enruedan, (lavan cerebros) verdades. Yotas

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makopp5 (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 1, 2009, 07:05:

tasco66 says on May 1, 2009, 07:26:

"But they all get caught and will be punished."

Yep, maybe desi would like the Colombian army to act like the Euros?


British troops used tanks last night to break down the walls of a prison in the southern Iraqi city of Basra and free two undercover British soldiers who were seized earlier in the day by local police.

An official from the Iraqi interior ministry said half a dozen tanks had broken down the walls of the jail and troops had then stormed it to free the two British soldiers. The governor of Basra last night condemned the "barbaric aggression" of British forces in storming the jail.

Aquil Jabbar, an Iraqi television cameraman who lives across the street from the jail, said dozens of Iraqi prisoners also fled in the confusion.

In a day of dramatic incidents in the heart of the British-controlled area of Iraq, the two undercover soldiers - almost certainly special forces - were held by Iraqi security forces after clashes that reportedly left two people dead and threatened to escalate into a diplomatic incident between London and Baghdad.

The soldiers, who were said to have been wearing Arab headdress, were accused of firing at Iraqi police when stopped at a road block.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/sep/20/iraq.military

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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tasco66 says on May 1, 2009, 07:40:

More on the Euro "war model":

On the eve of the 2003 invasion, Tony Blair told parliament that while there would be civilian casualties, Saddam Hussein would be "responsible for many more deaths even in one year than we will be in any conflict". Amnesty International reckoned annual deaths in Iraq linked to repression at the time to be in the low hundreds. Civilian deaths alone in the six years since the US-British attack are now estimated anywhere between 150,000 (the Iraqi government's figure) and a million-plus.

But when paying tribute to the 179 British soldiers killed in Iraq, ministers could not bring themselves to honour the victims of the bloodbath they helped inflict – let alone to acknowledge the tens of thousands of prisoners held without trial, the massacres and rampant torture Britain shares responsibility for: the very crimes of the former regime used to justify the war.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/may/01/iraq-britain-inqui...

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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tasco66 says on May 1, 2009, 07:56:

as an independent I read all media sources...

I just make one exception for worthless chavista propaganda and the like...

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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makopp5 (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 1, 2009, 09:10:

Sam Salmon says on May 1, 2009, 09:32:

"Desi is beginning to sound more and more like Byron and pobrecito..."
====================================================
Understand-the 'usual suspects' are desperate people-it's a huge challenge for them to maintain their fantasy world.

' a la orden!'

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Byron_Kostner says on May 1, 2009, 09:36:

colateral damage is one thing, but when you systematically force people off their land, rape, slaughter innocent people, that is a completely different story.

It would be nice to see the families of those who ignore the facts, get raped, slaughtered, and dismembered in front of them, then fed to the dogs, see how they feel about "false positives." A few selected "false positives" would be great for this world. I promise not to shed a tear for those people.

Actions speak louder than words, but the self-righteous crusaders want to live by their own rules.

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makopp5 (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 1, 2009, 09:50:

tasco66 says on May 1, 2009, 10:06:

"lefties think everytime in the perfect world and can´t see the whole."

I think the lefties are hypocritycal in their use of double standards for Colombia...

Wasn’t it some Euro that said: "nothing has been achieved without bloodshed"

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 1, 2009, 10:08:

We're not talking about collateral damage. That's something entirely different. As much as I wish that there never were any "collateral damage" or civilian casualties as it was called before the term became hollywoodized I know there always will. I'm not totally anti-military, some countries need an army to defend themselves against expansive and bellicose neighbours but to use arms against your own people for ideological reasons is a crime in my book.

No, my dear warmongerers, we're talking about corruption within the military and disregard for human rights. Also, as in the case of "falsos positivos", the seedy policy of offering money or benefits in exchange of presenting dead bodies of supposed enemy in unequal society like Colombia will keep on feeding to the same fire that has been consuming the country for too long now.

The recent arrests bring a positive note to this: perhaps these criminals toting a gun and wearing a uniform will be brought to justice. But the root of the problem is not on individual level: it's good that the bad apples will be removed from the barrel, but the climate that makes the apples rot so fast needs to change.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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makopp5 (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 1, 2009, 10:20:

"seedy policy of offering money or benefits in exchange of presenting dead bodies of supposed enemy in unequal society like Colombia will keep on feeding to the same fire that has been consuming the country for too long now"

This policy has helped colombia a lot to get closer to solve his problems. http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/post/army-seizes-large-guerrilla-arse... This is a good example that you can get good information for money. The colombians and the most people like money. So you have to use this to get good information. That there is some overshooting is bad, but you have to live with this. There is no other way. And where we are shows that we are on a good way.

And Desi you never talked about how many lives were saved thaks to Plan Colombia and the politics from Uribe.

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tasco66 says on May 1, 2009, 10:51:

Here they go again with their "superior race" thing...*^!%*&$# Euros...

Euros always seem to be on a mission to "educate the savages” or get rid of what they deem to be the “inferior race”...

Leave Latin America alone…you have already committed enough massacres and crimes on this continent.

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 1, 2009, 10:56:

We are discussing the Colombian army and military institutions, not Europe, Sweden or crimes of the past over there. I will have to start moderating this thread if you guys don't stay on topic.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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poco says on May 1, 2009, 11:30:

Quote: Yep, but the army has done a good job at solving this problem recently. However this seems to have has upset the usual PBH suspects…who will post any ill conceived propaganda to sully the army's achievements... ==================

Yes,, this has been the SOP for at least 6 years.

It started with direct attacks on Uribe and then implied or direct accusations that he wasn't helping Ingrid enough,, and when Uribe got MORE popular the posts moved to the POOR indigenous folks with interspersed shots at the military.

Personally,, it looks like these folks want Colombia to FAIL, or change the Colombian political system.

Colombian Chickens are crowing about the new President of the U.S. who will assure that From each according to their ability to each according to their need.

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romy says on May 1, 2009, 17:34:

Desi,
"Two possible outcome:
a creation of a mercenary army, a professional army
and perhaps, a few judges resigning soon from their posts or made to resign under accusations of being pro-Farc...."
I think you will be right about judges being accused of being pro-farc, it's very common of the Uribe MO. However, turning to a mercenary army is too extreme of wording, the government now more than ever needs to stay clear of paramilitary links which will surely come up with mercenaries. Professional soldiers is very different from mercenaries.

"the capture of 5 soldiers and two subofficials of the Batallon José Hilario Lopez who shot and killed the husband of the indigineous leader Aida Quilqué in the vereda of San Pedro, in Totoró, Cauca last December."
This is truly disgusting that it happened and I'm very glad these guys are facing justice. Though it remains to see if the sentence they end up serving is equivalent to one of an assassination and planned assassination of a major political figure.

"The recent arrests bring a positive note to this: perhaps these criminals toting a gun and wearing a uniform will be brought to justice. But the root of the problem is not on individual level: it's good that the bad apples will be removed from the barrel, but the climate that makes the apples rot so fast needs to change."
The guys sending out the orders still appear to have gotten away... and I would say these are the biggest criminals and should be the biggest concern.

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