Colombian Defense Minister: Ecuadorian killed in attack on FARC camp

romy says on Mar 23, 2008, 22:04:

beginning of another diplomatically tense week

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Sam Salmon says on Mar 24, 2008, 10:07:

Ecuador is a pipsqueak of a country that's run like a corner store-look at how many Presidentes that've had in the last 20 years-and how many had to 'run for the border' when the cops came calling.

Anybody remember Abdalla Bacaram?

' a la orden!'

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Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 24, 2008, 11:55:

Wait, quick, somebody answer the question of how an Ecuadorian could possibly come to be in a FARC camp. We all know that Ecuador and Ecuadorians don't support the FARC. Right? President Correa, please explain.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 24, 2008, 12:22:

Wait....and how does Correa possibly be able to know where every Ecuadorean is found at a given time? Does Uribe know where every Colombian can be found? How can that prove anything???

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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monkeykilla says on Mar 24, 2008, 12:28:

you should get used to more conflicts as the USA president and his warmongers want to produce a excuse to start a war with Hugo Chaves. Its all about controling the money and resourses . That is why Chaves started his own bank and got out if the World Bank. war its inevitable

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pedro (☼Travelguide writer) says on Mar 24, 2008, 12:47:

juancegomez says on Mar 24, 2008, 13:27:

robi666:

"Would anyone normally go into a FARC camp?
So, he was either kidnapped or a guerrilla or...

The sad part is that he could be there... working. It would be quite normal: the camp needs a trasformer to be installed, electrical lines, water, woodwork, etc."

The guy didn't show up for work in Quito on the 21st of February and called his parents on the 27th to tell them he was fine. That's all we know about what he was doing before he apparently showed up dead in that FARC camp, in the middle of the night. He would have been sleeping there, from the looks of it.

The guy was a locksmith from Quito and the FARC camp is quite a bit far away from the city. In fact, it's all the way up to the border.

If they wanted someone to do some routine mechanical work , I imagine they could have sent somebody from another city or town, one closer to the camp.

I have no idea if this person was really a guerrilla or guerrilla supporter, a civilian worker in the wrong place at the wrong time or if he was in the camp against his will, for one reason or another, as the circumstances are still quite unknown.

There's also the possibility that the guy died elsewhere (where? how? when?) and was then inserted into the camp as part of an elaborate ruse, but I'll leave that to any and all conspiracy theories out there.

That said, this death will only complicate things further, especially since the Defense Minister hasn't even properly apologized for the death of an Ecuadorian citizen (if not for the border crossing per se, which Colombia already has apologized for, as the act of attacking a guerrilla camp is admittedly not the main part of the problem) before trying to speculate about the possible identity of this man.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 24, 2008, 13:44:

Pedro, I'm sure the roofers in developed countries have no problem in choosing their jobs and still be able to feed their families, but a Colombian or Ecuadorean roofer may have been out of job for three months and there's a family to support.....

Anyway, the Ecuadorean locksmith at a rebel camp....Mexican students at the same camp doing a study? Perhaps not the whole world sees the FARC as terrorists. You can have leftist sympathies and yet not be a guerrillero or a terrorist.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Alma del Norte (☼Travelguide writer) says on Mar 24, 2008, 13:50:

pedro (☼Travelguide writer) says on Mar 24, 2008, 13:57:

juancegomez says on Mar 24, 2008, 14:14:

Desi : "Anyway, the Ecuadorean locksmith at a rebel camp....Mexican students at the same camp doing a study? Perhaps not the whole world sees the FARC as terrorists. You can have leftist sympathies and yet not be a guerrillero or a terrorist."

Certainly, on both counts...but as even HRW's Vivanco admits, if you're going to visit a FARC camp, a valid military target, out of your free will, your responsibility for the resulting risks isn't zero, even if you're going as a student or a locksmith, I would add.

That has nothing to do with the fact that FARC are or aren't a terrorist organization or anything else.

Which means that the Colombian state will still have to pay reparations for killing real or apparent civilians, I don't really have a doubt, but that other kind of responsibility will also have to be considered before the relevant courts.

If the locksmith went there unwillingly, however, that could change things somewhat, but any guerrilla camp would still remain a valid target even if this attack violated another country's territory (which makes the border crossing illegal) and led to the wrongful death of some of its occupants (which means that the state can be sued for them, fairly enough)

----------
Otros creen que es necesario esclarecer todos los hechos relacionados con el bombardeo a 'Reyes'. José Miguel Vivanco, delegado para las Américas de Human Rights Watch, cree que es imprescindible determinar con toda claridad lo que pasó, para establecer responsabilidades de acuerdo al DIH.

"¿Qué estaba haciendo el ciudadano ecuatoriano allí, qué sabían las autoridades colombianas en relación a la presencia de civiles antes del ataque y cuándo y en qué circunstancias mataron a esa persona?", se preguntó.

"El gobierno colombiano -añadió- tiene la obligación de distinguir entre civiles y combatientes en sus operaciones militares. Sin embargo, un civil que visita un campamento de las Farc esta asumiendo voluntariamente un riesgo vital debido a que el campamento es un objetivo militar legítimo", dijo.


http://www.eltiempo.com/tiempoimpreso/edicionimpresa/politica/2008-03-...

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JGD (☼Travelguide writer) says on Mar 24, 2008, 14:19:

juancegomez says on Mar 24, 2008, 14:23:

I have no idea what he was doing there, robi666, but I don't think that's the most likely explanation...especially given the guy's strange vanishing act (voluntary or not) in the days before the attack.

I assume that he would have told his family or friends something, at the very least, even if he kept FARC's involvement a secret.

He just failed to show up one day, later called to say he was "okay", and then he's dead.

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romy says on Mar 24, 2008, 14:42:

eluniverso.com | 08h24

Aisalia niega que su hijo haya estado vinculado a las FARC
ampliar imagen

Marzo 24, 2008


Guillermo Aisalia, padre de Franklin Guillermo Aisalia Molina, ecuatoriano supuestamente fallecido en el bombardeo colombiano a un grupo de guerrilleros de las Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia (FARC), rechazó esta mañana que su hijo esté vinculado al grupo subversivo.

Indicó que está seguro de que el cuerpo que tiene el Ejército colombiano es el de su hijo, "físicamente no hay duda", enfatizó a Citynoticias (89.3 FM en Guayaquil).

Guillermo Aisalia expresó que la familia espera saber qué estuvo haciendo su hijo en el lugar donde ocurrió el operativo militar colombiano en territorio ecuatoriano.

Aisalia negó además que su hijo sea quien aparece en una foto junto a Nuria Calderón, vinculada a las FARC. "Por nada, esa ropa que está puesta nunca ha tenido él. El bigote nunca se ha hecho poblado. El señor de la fotografía es un poco crespo, mi hijo no es crespo", aseguró.

Manifestó lo mucho que a su familia le afecta y se siente "indignado" de que saquen "un montaje" de la foto de su hijo "al lado de una señora a la que vinculan con las FARC".

Agregó que está esperando un llamado de la Fiscalía para ver si viaja hoy o mañana para identificar el cuerpo de quien asegura es su hijo.

La reanudación de las relaciones diplomáticas con Colombia, dependerá de la verificación de la identidad de Aisalia Molina, un cerrajero quiteño cuyo cadáver fue confundido con el guerrillero Julián Conrado.

El vicecanciller, José Valencia, señaló que el consulado de Ecuador en Bogotá dará todas las facilidades a los familiares de Aisalia Molina, pues no viajará ninguna misión diplomática porque las relaciones entre ambos países esperan aún el proceso de reanudación.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 24, 2008, 14:58:

Desi, maybe I wasn't clear in my ridicule of President Correa's positions. I'll spell it out: President Correa has publicly stated upon taking office that he would actively pursue and arrest any FARC who ventured into Ecuador. Yet Reyes was operating rather openly in Ecuador. Either Ecuador's intelligence services are the worst in the world, or Correa was deliberately turning a blind eye (or worse) to the FARC presence in his own country.

So his protestations just sound disingenuous to me. I don't really give a damn if some Ecuadorian gets taken down along with a bunch of FARC bad guys. Even someone like a journalist or an NGO worker would realize that there is danger in putting yourself on the front lines.

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romy says on Mar 24, 2008, 15:26:

Otra Mentira de Uribe?
They talk about 2 crimes
1. Assassination of an Ecuadorian national
2. Stealing a cadaver

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juancegomez says on Mar 24, 2008, 15:39:

romy: An assassination is usually described as the targetted killing of an individual.

So far, I think that isn't applicable to this individual. Future details may or may not change this.

Wrongful death or even a form of "voluntary manslaughter", if the concept even applies to a state or military, seem to be closer to the truth at this time, from a very rough legal point of view.

In order to talk about a murder or an assassination in a legal and non-moral sense, intent should be established and constrated with the circumstances of each specific death and the conduct of all the responsible parties.

I don't know the direct cause of death for the Ecuadorian man, but in the case of the Mexican students, the original bombing itself, according to police authorities in Quito, was what killed them.

Also, I don't know how much you could *really* talk about the body being "stolen", when it was initially incorrectly identified as a Colombian, and no alternative claims about its identity showed up until a couple of days ago.

The body was in limbo, essentially, for around 20 days, until the first public claims about its identity surfaced. I imagine that the body will be returned within days, unless the situation degenerates into something that makes such a move impossible.

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romy says on Mar 24, 2008, 15:42:

just to clarify those aren't my views, I was just giving the briefing of the video since it's in Spanish.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 25, 2008, 10:55:

"Desi - "You can have leftist sympathies and yet not be a guerrillero or a terrorist."

It doesn't feel like it in Colombia sometimes." (Alma del Norte)

So, McCarthyism isn't really dead, it has just emigrated to Colombia?

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 25, 2008, 12:05:

That's total nonsense.

Have you even looked at the political makeup of Colombia's congress and senate? Joseph McCarthy and J. Edgar Hoover would have had half of them on blacklists, or worse.

Colombia has a WAY more active and viable political left than the USA.

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Alma del Norte (☼Travelguide writer) says on Mar 25, 2008, 18:50:

Alma del Norte (☼Travelguide writer) says on Mar 25, 2008, 19:19:

Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 26, 2008, 02:49:

Yes, I was being rethorical, I'm well aware of the vibrant, vital left wing politics in Colombia, gaining power and acceptance day by day. It's just that the media does not seem to reflect these sentiments as diligently as Uribe/extreme right antics.

How can you talk politics with people who 's opening sentece is "I wish somebody would kill that goddamn communist, Gaviria" or "That disgusting skank Cordobá is a traitor and a guerrillera" or "I hope that bitch Ingrid will rot in hell".

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 26, 2008, 03:19:

No, Robi, I've listened to this guy and what he says is about the same things our social democrats say here. No big difference; he's NOT a communist, most definitely, but he leans left, which is a good thing in my book. With the Polo placing governors and mayors all over the country I wouldn't say the Left is washed up or a joke.

Cheers,
Desi

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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JGD (☼Travelguide writer) says on Mar 26, 2008, 06:12:

Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 26, 2008, 09:39:

I'd point out, Robi, that Colombia has too much far-left opposition, however they seem to prefer the gun to politics.

It's certainly worth noting that the FARC also murders leftist politicians for "collaborating" and lending legitimacy to what the FARC claims is an illegitimate political process.

There's really no easy solution.

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romy says on Mar 27, 2008, 13:22:

Another dead Ecuadorian 'Guerrillero'
-To me it seems inevitable that the Colombian government will have to face a comprimising ruling by the OEA or maybe even international criminal court.


Colombia Killed Son, Ecuador Mother

Quito, Mar 27 (Prensa Latina) The Ecuadorian Ombudsmans Office is investigating the death of another national that may have been caused by Colombian soldiers, after charges by family and friends of victims along the common border.


His relatives claim Jose Fernando Lopez Munoz Quiroz was tortured and shot dead by members of the Colombian Armed Forces, and have called for local authorities to look into the case.



According to Lopez Quiroz mother, the crime took place on March 13, when her son was working at a farm on the Colombian side of the Putumayo sector.



Ombudsman Claudio Mueckay affirmed they began investigating the case after the denunciation by the relatives.



Apart from that crime, relatives of another Ecuadorian have asked for governmental support to achieve justice and accuse the Colombian army of the death of Manuel Antonio Jimenez, a pharmacist residing in the bordering town of Puerto Nuevo.



According to his neighbors, Jimenez was in Puerto Asis sector, on the other side of the border, paying a bill, when he was arrested and killed by the Colombian troops.



Bogota sustains they were rebels or people who maintained certain links with the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC), which relatives and friends of the victims deny.

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romy says on Mar 27, 2008, 20:02:

eluniverso.com | 17h32

Correa insiste en defender a ecuatoriano muerto en ataque colombiano
Marzo 27, 2008

QUITO | Agencias
El presidente de Ecuador, Rafael Correa, insistió este jueves en que no permitirá que quede en la impunidad el "asesinato" de un ecuatoriano durante el ataque militar colombiano contra las FARC en su país, en el que fueron abatidos el líder rebelde Raúl Reyes y cuatro mexicanos.
"Si (Franklin) Aisalla era delincuente, guerrillero, no justifica que se asesine a un ecuatoriano en suelo de Ecuador por tropas extranjeras", dijo Correa este mediodía ante cientos de indígenas y campesinos que se concentraron frente al Palacio de Carondelet, sede del gobierno nacional en Quito.
"Este gobierno no va a permitir que este caso quede en la impunidad", agregó.
Relaciones con Colombia
En su alocución en la Plaza de la Independencia, Correa denunció que sigue la campaña (de Colombia) para tratar de vincular a este gobierno patriota soberano que ha rechazado y seguirá rechazando involucrarse en el Plan Colombia.
Se refería a recientes declaraciones de autoridades colombianas en el sentido de que no reciben suficiente cooperación del Ecuador para combatir la insurgencia e inclusive que reciben ataques de los rebeldes desde el lado ecuatoriano.
"Ese conflicto no es nuestro, no tenemos porqué derramar nuestra sangre, no tenemos porqué desperdiciar nuestros recursos en un conflicto que no es nuestro", señaló.
"Que la prepotencia vaya a otros lados", dijo. "Denominan terroristas a las FARC y quieren que los demás países nos involucremos en ese conflicto", agregó.

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juancegomez says on Mar 28, 2008, 09:24:

Romy: Ecuador's own authorities have just publicly admitted that they had been following Aisalla since 2003 for his possible links to FARC.

In other words, even if he may not have been a guerrilla, at the very least he had regular, unauthorized contacts with them or with FARC supporters. Enough for him to be followed for five years by the authorities of his own country, and for him to show up at a FARC camp at the time of his death.

He certainly doesn't seem to be just a locksmith at this point.

It's not too hard to see an international court ruling demanding compensation for his death, in fact it's actually very likely...but I don't think it will be possible to assign criminal responsibilities in that case, considering all the circumstances and other elements previously mentioned.

Criminal charges may more properly apply to the other cases you've posted about, if enough information is compiled to support them, but I doubt they could be individualized as much as they would need to be, so it would be a general ruling against the state, like it has happened before.

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romy says on Mar 28, 2008, 09:57:

Yes, I read that (of the link to FARC), thanks for the post. What worries me is that the effect of Aisalla being linked to the FARC will lead to a ruling that is unacceptable to Ecuador. At this point I'm hoping that Correa can accept the ruling when it's made and this matter can be put to rest. Because truly this has just been a distraction (though very valid) in the true process that needs to take place in Colombia.

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romy says on Mar 30, 2008, 22:57:

I wonder what's to come? How am I to sleep tonight...

Ecuador warns of strong response for Colombia raid
Reuters

QUITO -- Ecuadorean President Rafael Correa on Saturday warned of a strong response against neighboring Colombia over a March 1 military incursion in its soil, stoking tensions in the month-long diplomatic feud.

"On Monday they (Colombia) will have a strong and concrete response," Correa said during his weekly radio address. "It will not be a response of war or violence, it will be a response based on international law."

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