Colombian Beauty Pageant Inside Female Prison

greenday says on Oct 27, 2005, 03:35:

no pics??? I want to see pics...

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Oct 27, 2005, 05:35:

A 20 yr old female and her 34 yr old mother, both of them in the big house. Hmmm, giving birth at age 14 and leading a life of crime. More of those angelic Colombians and their traditional, superior family values we hear so much about. Hehe.

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lucky says on Oct 27, 2005, 06:36:

Incredible... I found the article on USA Today's website. There is a very small picture of the winner.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-10-03-colombia-beauty_x.htm

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Colombiche says on Oct 27, 2005, 06:49:

"More of those angelic Colomb "More of those angelic Colombians and their traditional, superior family values we hear so much about. Hehe."

Tinto, I think the comment you are making is a gross extrapolation, sort of like judging the values of American women based on what you see in an American prision. Are you going to tell me you don't see this sort of scenario in a prision anywhere in the world?

Your comment is totally inappropriate for a moderator of a Colombian travelblog. I expected much better from you. I can understand why the colombians are slowly disappearing from this page, what libelous, poisonous and ignorant comments, from the man that is supposed to keep the page "balanced".

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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cochopechocho says on Oct 27, 2005, 07:18:

Here you go Greenday.... http://www.meet-an-inmate.com/

Ooops! Sorry they're americanas.

Tinto,

Why don't you write a few of them so they can give you a strong dose of american values. LOL !!!

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Oct 27, 2005, 09:52:

Same thing in Peru www.wtopnews.com/index.php?nid=456&sid=581314

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Hunter says on Oct 27, 2005, 12:45:

Tinto I (and probably many others), guessed what you were refering to, but some PBhers are very thin skinned.

Hunter

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pepster says on Oct 27, 2005, 12:54:

Right on Tinto ""Hi, I'm an old goat who wants to go to Colombia to find a traditional woman, blah, blah, blah."

That's hilarious and very true. I see so much of this nonsense on other sites of old white guys looking for a good traditional girl in Colombia.

Well, I call that reverse prejudice. Like Americans are lacking traditional values or good morals. Both countries have a share of both.

I've always been disturbed by Colombia's and Venezuela's obsession with beauty pageants. I find that extremely exploitative. I wonder what Colombiche feels about that.

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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Colombiche says on Oct 27, 2005, 13:00:

Ironically Hunter The Americans who keep telling Colombians to be thick skinned about Colombia bashing, happen to be the thinnest skinned when somebody makes an anti US comment. They go on and on, cracking jokes about Colombia, making whores of all the women, gigolos of all the men... but if somebody makes the slightest anti-US comment, they get all patriotic, "star spangled bannered" on us.

What's up with that? If you guys want us to be thick skinned, then set the example. Be thick skinned yourselves and we, meek Colombians, shall follow in your mighty steps ;)

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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pepster says on Oct 27, 2005, 13:07:

Colombiche Let's just declare that everything is fair game!

This political correctness is getting old.

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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Colombiche says on Oct 27, 2005, 13:08:

... All this time I though miss Universe, the mother of all pageants was an American invention. Now I find out it is Venezuelan, or Colombian... or something.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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pepster says on Oct 27, 2005, 13:11:

Colombiche Nice try Colombiche. This is the same country that doesn't even carry Miss America on TV. Just because we own it doesn't mean we're obsessed with it. Hey, baseball is as American as it comes, but it's a bigger obsession in the Dominican Republic and Japan.

You're going to have to try a little harder.

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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Colombiche says on Oct 27, 2005, 13:11:

If everything is fair game Pep Then stop getting all pissy when you read the "What I don't like about America" threads. I notice you are one of the people that gets the most offended around this forum.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Oct 27, 2005, 13:13:

Ha ha ha! Sure, that is why the US calls their baseball tournament "The World Series", eventhough only American and a couple of Canadian teams participate.


Here she comes... miss America... la la laa

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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pepster says on Oct 27, 2005, 13:13:

Because of you... I was only getting pissy because I found some posters (one of them was you), a bit self-righteous. Now that I find that you may be hip...hey let's open up!

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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pepster says on Oct 27, 2005, 13:14:

Ouch Good one...a bit off the mark. But good one Colombiche.

That is arrogant. I agree.

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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Colombiche says on Oct 27, 2005, 13:21:

I'm not self righteous I just happen to be the minority (A colombian woman), in a page where most of the topics are dominated by North American males and I happen to read perfect English so I catch everything... of course, the things that are said about us (colombianas) hit me harder because I happen to be one, to you guys it is all a joke, often a dirty one.

Of course, I always end up being alone in my side of the fence, feeling cornered by a bunch of guys who are probably twice my age, don't know what it feels like to be Colombian, and think they know everything because they fired some guns in Vietnam, conquered the world, drilled an oil well overseas and lived to tell about it....and don't think they could possibly learn anything from a little Colombian girl like me, after all we are only eye candy, or maybe even nice little wives at best. When I sit back and look at the degrees hanging from the wall beside my desk, I think... *&^%, there is more to us than that... I know there is.

It is getting very exhausting.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Oct 27, 2005, 13:22:

Pepster I have no doubts that you must be a nice guy in real life, we don't see eye to eye on many issues, but I am not discrediting you as a person.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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pepster says on Oct 27, 2005, 13:40:

Colombiche I have a gorgeous little 6 year old neice. Her father is a paisa and her mother is my sister. I adore her to death and would hate to see her objectified and ridiculed. Everytime I joke around, behaving like a pig, my sister always pipes up..."hey, you have a neice".

So, you go on and call me on anything where I'm going too far.

It's the only way one learns.

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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Hunter says on Oct 27, 2005, 15:00:

COLOMBICHE There was no mention of solely Colombians being thin skinned, as to the US bashing, I sometimes get sick of it, because this is a primary a site about Colombia, not the US, where I don't happen to be from.

Hunter

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Rubiazo says on Oct 27, 2005, 20:21:

Colombiche at least you don't live in some country where a woman's only career options are housewife and prostitute! Although in Colombia, you would have better pay equity with your male counterparts! Unfortunately, they accomplish that one by paying everyone like caca!

The World Series was named after its original sponsor, the long-defunct newspaper, the New York World.

And OF COURSE US bashing is going to occur here. Many people who have moved to Colombia or are thinking about it are obviously not super happy with life in their other countries.

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Colombiche says on Oct 28, 2005, 06:36:

Rubiazo I don't think anybody should bash anybody's country. I think we should all be respecful of each other's countries. Healthy criticism is okay, I am one who critizes Colombia when I have to, I don't idealize my country by any means, I don't have blinders on, I think Colombia has good things that Canada lacks, but Canada has many good things that Colombia lacks. No place is perfect. No place can claim to have it ALL.

pS: There shouldn't be any countries where a woman's only choices are to be either a housewife or a prostitute Rubiazo, what a twisted world it is, always somebody having a powertrip at the expense of somebody else's utter misery.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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utopiacowboy says on Oct 28, 2005, 08:48:

Estoy de acuerdo contigo, Colombiche.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Oct 28, 2005, 12:45:

just out of curiosity which country were you referring to, rubi? (where a woman's only career choice was to be a housewife or a prostitute)

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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kernow62 says on Oct 28, 2005, 13:07:

I don't think Rubi was actually saying that, I think he was being a bit sarcastic in reference to what others have posted. I mean his girlfriend lives in Colombia, I don't reckon he thinks she is a whore or a housewife.

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Rubiazo says on Oct 28, 2005, 13:33:

I actually kinda meant it Kernow and Desi, if you go to the Dominican Republic, a very large portion of the women who work there are expected to sleep with people for the going rate. For example, I could take you to a local McDonalds in Santiago, DR where you can walk right out with the cashiers, after paying the appropriate fees. Many receptionists have the same unofficial job description, they are expected to be available for their bosses, the r bosses' friends etc.

Ironically enough, I know scads of Dominican women here who want to go back. Part of their reasoning from what they tell me is that they simply don't think its correct for a woman to be working in the first place and they really would like to not have to take a dayjob and to go back to being housewives like they were back home!

My gf is neither a housewife nor a whore, but since prostitution is legal in Colombia, being a whore is a whole different ball of wax than in another country where it's illegal. It becomes much more of just another nasty way of making a living.

AFAIK receptionists having to sleep with people to keep their job is probably something that happens in every country, but in the DR what was shocking was the prevalence of it. I certainly don't know of any branches of El Corral in Bogota that offer take-out of the cashiers, but if anybody has any info, feel free to enlighten me. The two of us would really appreciate it :p I like mine medium-rare!!!

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utopiacowboy says on Oct 28, 2005, 14:05:

That's interesting, Rubaizo. How come you never hear of the DR as being a big sex tourism destination? So basically any woman from the DR is a ho?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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pepster says on Oct 28, 2005, 14:08:

Utopiacowboy "How come you never hear of the DR as being a big sex tourism destination?"

Are you kidding?

Check it out...the DR IS NOTORIOUS FOR SEX TOURISM!!!
Trust me...I've been there many, many, many times. A lot, I mean alot of the chicas are on the ball.

ps. It's a fun country ;)

The Pepster

"I'm an American and I'm a Colombian. Not neither or either...so deal with it."

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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utopiacowboy says on Oct 28, 2005, 14:10:

What can I say? I guess I've been living under a rock.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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pepster says on Oct 28, 2005, 14:14:

Grammar I'm a thrill seeker. I live on the grammatical edge!

The Pepster

"I'm an American and I'm a Colombian. Not neither or either...so deal with it."

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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BxUnika says on Oct 28, 2005, 16:29:

at Colombiche "I just happen to be the minority (A colombian woman), in a page where most of the topics are dominated by North American males and I happen to read perfect English so I catch everything... of course, the things that are said about us (colombianas) hit me harder because I happen to be one, to you guys it is all a joke, often a dirty one."

Don't let it get to you. I think that a very good number of topics discussed here and posts here border on ridiculous, so you are no the only one.

"Of course, I always end up being alone in my side of the fence, feeling cornered by a bunch of guys who are probably twice my age, don't know what it feels like to be Colombian"

True.

"and think they know everything because they fired some guns in Vietnam, conquered the world, drilled an oil well overseas and lived to tell about it...."

Some are this old, but I sense we have enough of the next generation of these types on this board as well.

"and don't think they could possibly learn anything from a little Colombian girl like me, after all we are only eye candy, or maybe even nice little wives at best. When I sit back and look at the degrees hanging from the wall beside my desk, I think... *&^%, there is more to us than that... I know there is."

Pint well made.

It is getting very exhausting.

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BxUnika says on Oct 28, 2005, 16:35:

at Rubiazo "at least you don't live in some country where a woman's only career options are housewife and prostitute! Although in Colombia, you would have better pay equity with your male counterparts! Unfortunately, they accomplish that one by paying everyone like caca!"

While thsi maybe true, I don't think that was what she was talking about.

"And OF COURSE US bashing is going to occur here. Many people who have moved to Colombia or are thinking about it are obviously not super happy with life in their other countries."

Well, Colombiche was hinting at it and other people have as well, but I really don't think a lot of these people who are moving to Colombia because they "aren't super happy with life in other countries" are happy with life period and moving to Colombia, China, or anywhere else is not going to change that. People need to find happiness within and ultimately material wealth and moving to a developing coutry where you can live like a king with a US salary of a pauper is not going to do it.

Colombiche is right, though. A lot of people on here really lack something in their lives and it has nothing to do with culture or where they live. Many people on here live in dream worlds and get angry at those who try to break the truth to them as she has.

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BxUnika says on Oct 28, 2005, 16:44:

Ok... "For example, I could take you to a local McDonalds in Santiago, DR where you can walk right out with the cashiers, after paying the appropriate fees."

Ok, again, even though you claim to solicit prostitutes nor abuse drugs, once again you have turned the topic into a free for all on prostitution. It's kind of funny that a straight edge guy like you who doesn't do drugs or bang hookers knows so much about both.

"Ironically enough, I know scads of Dominican women here who want to go back."

I think they say that because the "good old days" are always better to everyone. In reality, if that were true they wouldn't take yolas to Puerto Rico and pass as PRS to come here and wouldn't stay in the US as illegal immmigrations and come en masse as they do.

"Part of their reasoning from what they tell me is that they simply don't think its correct for a woman to be working in the first place and they really would like to not have to take a dayjob and to go back to being housewives like they were back home!"

Apparently. And apparently they don't think it's correct for a man to be working either because Dominican women here usually support their men who are bsuy dealing drugs or playing dominoes and drinking Malta at the local bodega all day. Let's just say that Dominicans aren't world famous for their work ethnic.

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Rubiazo says on Oct 28, 2005, 16:45:

I actually really love the DR but they have some SERIOUS problems to deal with in that country. Right now they are headed straight for perdition if they don't wise up and claw their way up out of it.
They need to start promoting condom use on an official level like they have done in South America and in SE Asia. If they don't do it their HIV prevalency rate will end up as bad as that of many African countries. They are currently at 2.5% compared to Thailand's 1.8% Only Haiti has a worse problem with HIV/Aids in the Western Hemisphere.

And part of the problem is that nobody down there wants to admit there is a problem!!! And yes it has become a major sex destination in recent years due to increased law enforcement activity in the USA, combined with the horrible beating their currency has taken. Pepster, I hope you were wrapping that thing THREE TIMES!

Colombiche, I think you are a great, intelligent person, but the degrees on your wall will never impress me. Your posts impress me much more than some crappy piece of paper ever will. As far as I'm concerned any guy that doesn't value a woman's opinion simply because she is a woman is missing out and ultimately gets what he deserves out of life!

UC, I didn't say that every woman in DR was a ho. I said that a sizeable portion of the women WHO WORK are available for a price. Most women in the DR, the VAST majority, are housewives and generally don't get out of the house much beyond going to buy food. It is still very counter-cultural down there for a woman to have a career and her own money and many people (men AND women) frown upon it. Fortunately, this does not seem to be the case in Colombia. I think at least half of all women's potential is wasted as housewives.

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cam0940 says on Oct 28, 2005, 17:15:

For whatever differences in opinion/viewpoint I may have had with Colombiche or Bx, you have to respect them. They present intelligent arguments that I appreciate. You don't have to agree to appreciate your opponent in a debate.

As long as Bx doesn't get mad and start blasting people, her posts are actually entertaining and insightful.

Colombiche, I do hear what you're saying. I feel like a minority too in some of my views, which I won't get into here. But I have experienced frustration with certain topics because I wasn't part of the larger demographic. Hang in there.

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utopiacowboy says on Oct 28, 2005, 17:18:

Thanks for that clarification, Rubiazo. I guess they figure work is work including work you do flat on your back. So it sounds like most of the women who are in the workforce are potential hos if not actual hos. Have you spent a lot of time there?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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utopiacowboy says on Oct 28, 2005, 21:18:

Did some research on the internet and there's even a book about it. Mira:

"Georgetown University assistant professor of anthropology Denise Brennan's research brings an ethnographic lens to the complex exchange of sex tourism, a booming business in locations around the world.
Her new book, What's Love Got To Do With It? Transnational Desires and Sex Tourism in the Dominican Republic, examines the motivations of workers, clients and others connected to the sex tourism business in Sosúa, a town on the northern coast of the Dominican Republic.

"Sex work is never just about money and sex, it is about hopes, possibilities and the realities of transnational capitalism and the local structures of class," said Brennan. "In Sosúa we find networks of individuals and capital, networks linked together through tourism and sex tourism, through new marriage-based migration circuits, through foreign investment in Sosúa and through foreign residence there."

Brennan's book considers why Dominican and Haitian women move to Sosúa to pursue sex work and describes how sex tourists, primarily Europeans, come to the town to buy sex cheaply and live out racialized fantasies.

Through her detailed study of the lives and working conditions of the women in Sosúa's sex trade, Brennan raises important questions about women's power, control and opportunities in a globalized economy.

Brennan draws on extensive interviews with sex workers, clients and those who facilitate and benefit from sex trade. She weaves their voices into an analysis of Dominican economic and migration history to consider the opportunity, and lack of opportunity, available to poor Dominican women.

"For sex workers, sex trade is more than a means of survival," she explains. "It is an advancement strategy that hinges on their successful performance of love. Many women seek to turn a sexual transaction into a long-term relationship that could lead to marriage, migration and a way out of poverty."

All proceeds from Brennan's book will be donated to Centro de Promoción e Solidaridad Humana (CEPROSH), a Dominican nongovernmental AIDS outreach and education organization, and to Movimiento de Mujeres Unidas (MODEMU), a Dominican sex worker's union."

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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utopiacowboy says on Oct 28, 2005, 21:22:

Damm, here is another one that I came across, this time talking about sex tourism in Jamaica where middle-aged WOMEN are buying it!

"Sex tourism as economic aid
The Sydney Morning Herald ^ | July 12 2003 | Julie Bindel

Two flights are due into Montego Bay Airport, one from Toronto, the other from London. Clinton waits on the beach for the new arrivals, hoping that one of them will bring him good fortune. "I look for the milk bottles," he says, explaining how ultra-white skin is a giveaway, "the ones who've just arrived. Milk bottles that need filling ..."

Negril, with its 11-kilometre stretch of pristine sand and turquoise sea, attracts the majority of Jamaica's 1.3 million tourists every year, primarily from the United States, Canada and Europe. It is known as a "swinging" resort.

Many white Western women come to Negril for precisely that. Clinton is one of hundreds of young men working the beach and, like most of the "beach boys", he is desperately poor. His primary income comes from accompanying lone female travellers who want sex with Jamaican men.

He lives with his family in a shack with no electricity or running water. In contrast, the hotels and apartments that line the beach are luxurious, with rooms costing $US200 ($300) a night. While some beach boys may be content to have their meals paid for, the goal is marriage to a Westerner and a ticket out of poverty.

Clinton has a "regular girlfriend", a 45-year-old Canadian professional who comes to see him four times a year. "She's a good friend and she looks after me. Sends me money when I can't pay my rent." Clinton says he works "in the tourist industry" and won't admit he is a beach boy. "If I take a tourist out, and she wants to help me out as a friend, give me money and let me stay with her in the hotel, what's wrong with that? Of course I have sex with them, but that's because I'm not gay - I like women."

Clinton's current "girlfriend" is a 50-year-old grandmother from the US, whom he met the day before.

Negril, like some resorts in the Dominican Republic and Cuba, is known as a place where white middle-aged women come in search of what they call the "big bamboo". British researchers Jacqueline Sanchez Taylor and Julia O'Connell Davidson found that the usual analysis of sex tourism did not allow for the possibility of women as buyers of sex, because "prostitute-users are, by definition, male, and this assumption is shared by many researchers and theorists".

The two researchers interviewed 240 women holidaying in Negril and two similar resorts in the Dominican Republic. Almost a third of the interviewees had engaged in sexual relationships with local men during their holiday. Though 60 per cent admitted to certain "economic elements" to their liaisons, they did not perceive the encounters as prostitute-client transactions, nor did they view their sexual partners as prostitutes.

Those who admit to coming to Negril for sex believe they are helping the men and the local economy by giving them money and gifts.

HIV and AIDS figures reflect the fact that condom use by the beach boys is sporadic. In the tourist areas, the number of those infected is higher than elsewhere on the island. Last year, an estimated 20,000 adults and children out of a population of 2.6 million were living with AIDS or HIV - a figure that had more than doubled in two years.

Ms Sanchez Taylor and Ms O'Connell Davidson suggest that the reason many female tourists are able to delude themselves into believing they are not prostitute users lies in their racialised power over the men: "Racist ideas about black men being hypersexual and unable to control their sexuality enable them to explain to themselves why such young and desirable men would be eager for sex with older and/or overweight women, without having to think that their partners are interested in them only for economic reasons."

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Colombiche says on Oct 29, 2005, 09:52:

Rubiazo My university degrees are not meant to impress, you or anybody else. Not even myself. They are pieces of paper that say to me:

"Hey girl, we are here to back you up, we are here to help you get your foot into many places. We are here to make sure you don't have to marry for money, sell your body so you can eat, become a gold digger, or marry some guy who beats the hell out of you and you have to put up with it because he is putting food on your table. We are here to back you up when the going gets rough, to show any smart mouth guy that you can do whatever he can".

Does a university degree guarantee that you are smart? Hell no. It only implies that you have a high enough IQ to deal with the material that is thrown at you at school. I know many people that have PHD's that don't know their arse from a hole in the ground. The most valuable lessons in life come from other people, from travelling around. From being street smart, people smart. Knowing how to get your point across. You can have all the papers you want, but if you have your head buried in the ground, you are going nowhere.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Oct 29, 2005, 10:01:

Prostitution in Less Developed Countries... I would hesitate to refer to prostitutes as "hos". Who knows the sad stories behind these girls lives. AS you guys banged these girls, many of them were probably far away, lost in their thoughts, waiting for you to blow your load fast and get your sweaty ass off of them, budgeting what they were going to buy their kids with the 20 dollars you gave them before they took off their clothes for you.

There is this song I love. It is called "La Jinetera" by Willie Chirino. I love the words to that song. They tell the story of thousands of women, not only in Cuba, but also in DR, Haiti....


Cuando la tarde se pone en el malecón,
Eva se está preparando para la acción,
acechando a los turistas que hay en La Havana,
por unos dolares, les vende su manzana.
La minifalda te enseña hasta el infinito,
mientras se va caminando por el circuito,
donde los fulas te compran lo que tu quieras.
Ábranle paso a Eva, La Jinetera.

Tiene sólo 17 primaveras,
y más aventuras que Tarzán,
detrás de la risa de la Jinetera,
Eva está llorando por su Adan.

Tiene un cuartito pequeño por Lujano,
donde esta noche se lleva lo que ganó,
así alimenta a su hijita de 7 meses,
las apariencias nunca son lo que parecen.
Su novio era un estudiante que militaba,
en el partido que parte a quien no lo alaba,
después de ver la mentira se convenció,
y en 4 tablas y un remo, a la Yuma huyo.

Tiene sólo 17 primaveras,
y más aventuras que Batmán,
detrás de la risa de la Jinetera,
Eva sigue llorando por su Adan.

Y cuando el sol reaparece en el malecón,
vuelve la misma rutina y la situación,
de vivir en una tierra, donde el futuro,
salió nadando después de brincar el muro.
No quiero que mi canción te traiga tristezas,
y toma lo que te digo como promesa,
que pronto, pronto en mi tierra estaré cantando,
porqué yo se que La Havana me está esperando.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Oct 29, 2005, 11:37:

colombiche, This is something I've been trying to get across with no success for every thread where prostitution is mentioned. The guys who defend this what they call "the oldest profession in the world" are always saying that the women engaged in this do it because they like it! While there is everything in the viña del senor as the saying goes, I have always had very serious doubts about that. I don't believe it's the oldest profession either neither do I believe in the myth of the happy hooker.

Young women that prostitute themselves do it because they lack skills, education and possibilities to make a decent living. It's that simple. Men that go to prostitutes do that because they want to have sex without any kind of commitment. Paid and forgotten.

If it were for the desire to make easy money and not having to have a regular job then it wouldn't be just the poor, unpriviledged girls in struggling economies that'd prostitute themselves.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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utopiacowboy says on Oct 29, 2005, 13:18:

I guess you missed the Jamaica story that I posted above, Desi. How do you explain that one?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Oct 29, 2005, 13:38:

How do I explain Jamaica? It's not a mystery. Women from USA, Canada, Europe have been doing this for ages. What these guys are loking for is a meal ticket and they're willing to sell their bods for it. It's the same old story, only reversed. I feel sorry for them too, just as I feel sorry for the women engaged in prostitution.

What I found a kind of interesting in that article was the pretense that the women didn't consider these guys prostitutes, but rather as 'special friends'. It's a dog world, but we women like to keep up the appearances.

I didn't miss your Jamaica story; it's just the other side of the coin.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Colombiche says on Oct 29, 2005, 13:42:

Lots of white ladies Love to go to Jamaica, they like to eat morcilla, LOL.

I still think it is harder and more humiliating for a woman to sell her bod, just the nature of sex, the double standard, the stigma. The anatomy itself. Man the invader, woman the invadee, the physically weaker sex.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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utopiacowboy says on Oct 29, 2005, 13:46:

Fair enough, Desi. I must admit that I found it surprising but then I've been living under a rock.

Now that was an interesting comment, Colombiche. Do you find sexual intercourse humiliating as a woman? Or just in that context? I always find it kinda funny myself.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Colombiche says on Oct 29, 2005, 13:52:

Not Humiliating.... Maybe I am old fashioned, but to me the act of allowing somebody to be inside of you is like the ultimate display of love. What else is there? Your body is your temple, your boundary, where you live while you exists on this earh. I am not saying sex is always about love or anything like that, there are many levels to it...but it must be rough to allow people into your body for a few measly bucks. As a woman, I feel that if I had to do that, I would have to psyche myself to stop thinking what the hell I am doing to myself.

What I am trying to say, I don't find it humiliating if you do it for the right reasons (love or even just lust). But out of sheer need???? That has got to be very difficult!

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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pepster says on Oct 29, 2005, 14:15:

For the Record I have absolutely no problem with prostitution.

I think people get hung up on the basic quid pro quo sessions.

But I think a lot of women have been prostituting themselves without being labeled "hookers". Case in point: Maria Carey, Thalia, Marla Maples, Anna Nicole Smith, anyone ever married to Mike Tyson, have been doing it without the whore/hooker label attached.


The Pepster

"I'm an American and I'm a Colombian. Not neither or either...so deal with it."

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Oct 29, 2005, 14:21:

I know this is controversial but I'd go as far as to say that any woman/man who marries for money is prostituting her/himself.

I know I'm stepping on a lot of toes with this statement, but I find money and love totally incompatible partners.
Then again, it's easy for me to say that. I was never in the situation where I had to compromise my principles.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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pepster says on Oct 29, 2005, 14:27:

Desideria Bingo...

But you see people only see prostitution as a street or whore house deal.

Women have been doing it for years...marrying old, fat rich guys.
Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it is when they're obviously not attracted to them.

I've known quite a few Russian and many Colombian mail order brides.
I'm sorry...but they're whoring themselves.

The Pepster

"I'm an American and I'm a Colombian. Not neither or either...so deal with it."

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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caslug says on Oct 29, 2005, 14:32:

what about porn? you have two adults getting PAID to have sex.. so people at home could enjoy it! What about movies, you have two adults getting paid to KISS or HOLD hands to audience can enjoy it.

EVEN in US, a VERY rich country, where people DO NOT have to "degraded" themselves in the SEX industry OR criminal industry(for that matter). A small percentage of the population STILL take the easy way out. EVEN if you offer decent job for EVERYONE you'll still have people that DONT want to work hard and rather use their body to make money or commit crime. At least with using their body to make money, they're NOT hurting anyone else(but themselves)

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cochopechocho says on Oct 29, 2005, 14:45:

I'm totally against prostitution..... I believe that it is totally immoral and a waste of life.

What I find equally offensive is the labeling of women as prostitutes that simply happen to marry up. True love has nothing to do with good looks, age or money. On a side note, people that simply look at a couple and decide that the woman is a prostitute have issues and a poor opinion of women in general.

In my book there is little difference between someone that would marry only for money or someone that marries simply because they are physically attracted to another.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Oct 29, 2005, 15:43:

what about marrying a tall Swede so you'll have somebody who can reach up to the ceiling to change the lightbulb? Is that prostitution?

Ok, not that, but what are the valid reasons for to get married?

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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utopiacowboy says on Oct 29, 2005, 16:12:

Good response, Colombiche. De acuerdo.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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cochopechocho says on Oct 29, 2005, 16:15:

True love however you define it is a good reason to get married. Reasons for getting married are hard to quantify especially across cultural lines. But, It should never be has simplistic as I like to have sex with him or her or monetary considerations.

My first relationship was with a woman twice my age. And although done of my friends found her particularly attractive I loved her dearly. I certainly wasn’t attracted to her because she had more money than I did. In fact she was a divorced woman that had no intentions of remarrying.

I’m currently in a relationship with a much younger colombiana and I personally have a hard time thinking of her as a prostitute. I wouldn’t marry a prostitute if she was the most beautiful woman on the planet.

I can’t speak for everyone but when you truly love someone you are willing to make huge sacrifices for them. I’m currently in the process of settling my affairs here so that I can live in Colombia.

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pepster says on Oct 29, 2005, 16:35:

perhaps "In my book there is little difference between someone that would marry only for money or someone that marries simply because they are physically attracted to another"

Really? I couldn't disagree more.

One is a whore the other is in love.


The Pepster

"I'm an American and I'm a Colombian. Not neither or either...so deal with it."

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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Colombiche says on Oct 29, 2005, 16:56:

Pepster You equate "physical attraction" with being in love? Marrying on the premise of physical attraction is not being in love. It is lust. When the bubble bursts you have nothing more. If you are with somebody just because they are beautiful, it is safe to assume that if they had an accident and became horribly disfigured, you would walk away. Or, once they start aging, you are going to trade them in for a younger model.

That, is not love.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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utopiacowboy says on Oct 29, 2005, 17:29:

Of course when you are in love, there is a tremendous physical attraction. The other day I picked my wife up after work and she looked like someone who had had a hard day of working, her hair was frazzled and she just looked worn out. She asked me if I thought she was a mess and I told her no, to me she looked beautiful.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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pepster says on Oct 29, 2005, 18:18:

Colombiche "You equate "physical attraction" with being in love? Marrying on the premise of physical attraction is not being in love. It is lust. When the bubble bursts you have nothing more. If you are with somebody just because they are beautiful, it is safe to assume that if they had an accident and became horribly disfigured, you would walk away. Or, once they start aging, you are going to trade them in for a younger model."

If you don't have physical attraction...you're in trouble already.
Hopefully, during the physical aspect of the relationship, love will grow and transcend the physical.

You can't have one without the other.

Marrying for money or marrying up equals WHORE.

That, is not love.

The Pepster

"I'm an American and I'm a Colombian. Not neither or either...so deal with it."

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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Rubiazo says on Oct 29, 2005, 19:05:

Hmm, interesting conversation, First off Desi, you are going off half-cocked. You already admitted you don't know any prostitutes personally. I know legions of them. I really don't buy the 'economic necessity' argument. I don't know a single sex pro who couldn't go out and take some shitty retail job any day they wanted to. It's not about having to survive, it's about wanting more than just bare survival!

Some girls here in the US AND in South America become pro because they want their kids to go to decent schools. In NYC sending a kid to most of our public schools should really be considered a form of child abuse!! So they make a trade, their bodies for their kids' education.

If any of you guys thinks that it's EASY work you are sorely mistaken. There is very little easy about it. You have to have a whole lot of physical discipline and an Oscar-worthy acting ability for starters. The only way to really make any money in the business is to be one of the sharpest knives in the drawer. I have nothing but respect for those kinds of girls. They have every right to do what they are doing .

Personally I'd go into the sex industry LONG before I started robbing or hitting those garbage cans, and LONG before I took some shit minimum wage job!! That is just a longer and more drawn out and ultimately more painful assfucking IMO.

I think poorly people who marry for money because they are just like any prostitute, except for they are not out in the open. I think the same way about going into a bar and getting a girl lubed up with drinks and then spinning some bullshit story for her to get her in the sack. I have no problem with people selling their bodies but i have a BIG problem with people deceiving each other and lying to each other!

As far as I'm concerned anybody who has sex with a non-regular partner without a condom really needs to get his or her head examined! Condoms work, people should use them. If a pro uses condoms, he or she has less chance of getting seriously ill or dying than a doctor or nurse has!! And not the most sanctimonious of you would be asinine enough to suggest we could do without doctors and nurses!

Pepster, don't forget Celine Dion. She got in on the game at age 12!!

Colombiche I prefer the term 'pro' instead of 'ho' myself. It is a lot more dignified. Some people in the industry don't deserve the term, but I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt :P BTW, many times when I'm playing music and I look like I'm having the time of my life, I'm actually fighting the urge to look at my watch and wondering how many minutes more I have till I can finally take a piss. All performance-based work is like that. If I were having sex with a pro, it wouldn't bother me the least to think she may not be 100% into it, as long as I'm enjoying myself, it's really quite irrelevant. Actually sometimes somebody who's obviously reluctant can be a HUGE turn on. It can add a whole new dimension of eroticism to a sexual encounter.

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cam0940 says on Oct 29, 2005, 19:10:

Whatever happened to old fashioned compatibility? Compatibility doesn't necessarily care about how much money I have or she has, doesn't necessarily depend on how good she looks or doesn't look, it's a chemistry. Speaking of looks, there used to be a saying "the prettier the grittier" because the pretty girls are more prone to use their looks to manipulate the guy and, being pretty, she has more likely had everything in life handed to her on a silver platter. She's more prone to be high maintenance and spoiled. So for physical attraction, sure it's important (even necessary) but it's far from the most important factor. For me, "Cute and Humble" trumps "Gorgeous with an Attitude" anyday.

Also, I had a pretty humble beginning in life. Fortunately things have gotten better. I can still relate to people who didn't go to the same schools I went to, that don't have the same types of careers, that might be considered of a different strata. The kind of girl I would be interested in on a compatibility level might outwardly appear to be "marrying up", but does not make her a whore.

Of course, the situations that other posters described go on, I think we can all agree to that. But as each subsequent generation gains greater upward mobility, this second scenario I've described becomes more common.

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cam0940 says on Oct 29, 2005, 19:16:

But on sex workers, Rubiazo and I disagree because I think pros, hoes, whatever you want to call them are (no offense Rub) stank.

Something about the idea of a million other guys being there just makes me limp.

However, I do realize that it is hard work. It's a hustle. A competitive hustle at that. And the girls I've known could have probably gotten some other kind of job, but not one that would have produced the kind of income they needed for their kids, rent, whatever.

I said it before and I'll say it again, a male or female sells sex when there's nothing left to sell (but should add the clause "that pays enough"). Meaning if they had some other skills/knowledge/education/talent then they'd sell that instead.

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Rubiazo says on Oct 29, 2005, 19:32:

Pretty few people on Earth can earn what a good pro earns. ESPECIALLY in Colombia and even more especially in the DR! People's ideas of what they "need" are a little fucked up sometimes. You don't "need" to send your kids to private school. You don't "need" a car, or to shop at Gap or Studio F or go to McDonalds or have a cellphone etc.

Most girls who give you that line "I had to do it to survive" are so fulla shit I can smell them from here. At the very least, they should learn to put some goddamn broccoli in some water once in a while instead of paying the Chinese restaurant $7 to do it for them!

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cam0940 says on Oct 29, 2005, 19:40:

True, but have you ever tried to explain the difference between "need" and "want" to a woman? No offense ladies but women usually have a "standard". Now, that standard might be the Chinese restaurant eating out. If they can't afford that, the pressure/stress/discomfort can be just as real as what you or I might define as "needs".

Children's clothes for example. Brand name is not a "need", but there are some women who just have to have it. It's that "standard" or threshold, and they're just not having the kid go to school in anything less. Like a five year old cares whether his clothes are designer or not? Give me a break. Especially boys. When I was a kid, we played rough. We were in the dirt, tackling, on our knees shooting bottlecaps... but then some mothers don't understand that, and insist on sending little Johnny to school in Guess for Kids jeans at $50 a pair. And will cuss you out for telling them the kid doesn't "need" that.

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pepster says on Oct 29, 2005, 20:04:

Rubiazo I was going to mention Celine...but by the time she married that old goat...she was already loaded.

The Pepster

"Uribe for President...again"
ColombianBlog

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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Rubiazo says on Oct 29, 2005, 20:21:

Cam that was a BIG part of why I'm divorced today. I see no reason to live in the USA unless you are going to get ahead financially and make something out of all the hard work and struggle. That's also why I have chosen to continue the relationship with my gf in Bogota against all odds, because she is so NOT like that. She has her priorities straight, and doesn't mind sacrificing in other areas to take care of them. So few people, North OR South American, male or female, are in her boat these days.

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calipro says on Oct 29, 2005, 21:03:

pepster "...or marrying up equals WHORE."

I guess that makes my mother a whore. Heck probably more than half of all women are whores in your book so I won't waste any time being offended. hehehe !!!

You've got issues. Seek therapy. LOL !!!

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BxUnika says on Oct 30, 2005, 00:43:

"Jinetera" "I would hesitate to refer to prostitutes as "hos". Who knows the sad stories behind these girls lives. AS you guys banged these girls, many of them were probably far away, lost in their thoughts, waiting for you to blow your load fast and get your sweaty ass off of them, budgeting what they were going to buy their kids with the 20 dollars you gave them before they took off their clothes for you."

You read my mind. I think a lot of what you say is hard for certain people here to swallow. It's quite interesting to me that the men on here are critiquing prostitutes and saying what a social ill it is when many of them are the very same people who patronize these prostitutes. The wouldn't exist if nobody bought it, now, would they? It really speaks volumes about these men as people. What kind of person goes on vacation to foreign country and buys prostitutes? I hear a lot of insults being thrown around, a lot of men here on the defensive, but what do they really expect that we think of them when they are practically boasting about the puta they slammed in DR for $10? This goes back to my very infamous thread...does anybody now not understand why I said what I said?

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BxUnika says on Oct 30, 2005, 00:50:

at Desi "The guys who defend this what they call "the oldest profession in the world" are always saying that the women engaged in this do it because they like it!"

Precisely.

"Young women that prostitute themselves do it because they lack skills, education and possibilities to make a decent living. It's that simple. Men that go to prostitutes do that because they want to have sex without any kind of commitment. Paid and forgotten."

Some women resort to this way of making money, not that I agree with it. A lot is said about the types of women who engage in this, but not nearly as put under a microscope are the men who solicit these women. Anybody who has to pay for sex because of a commitment factor has serious emotional problems, if you ask me. If no-string-attached is what they are looking for, even that is quite different then casually picking up a woman for a one night stand at a bar, which isn't too dificult to do.

I see a pattern. A impoverished, third world prostitute and American/European patron relationship is very unequal. But ask yourself, how much different is that than a 19 year old girl from Siloe or some 1 or 2 strata barrio "dating" and having sex with a much older middle-class American/European, who in their eyes is rich, for gifts and dinners out and new clothes?

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BxUnika says on Oct 30, 2005, 00:53:

at Pepster "I have absolutely no problem with prostitution.

I think people get hung up on the basic quid pro quo sessions.

But I think a lot of women have been prostituting themselves without being labeled "hookers". Case in point: Maria Carey, Thalia, Marla Maples, Anna Nicole Smith, anyone ever married to Mike Tyson, have been doing it without the whore/hooker label attached."

True, you have a point there. But let me ask you something? How many decent people do you know who respect these women? Who think they are role models? Who hold them in high esteem because of their personal accomplishment? I would think very few, because I sure don't nor does anybody I know.

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pepster says on Oct 30, 2005, 08:55:

BxUnika,

Maybe not Anna Nicole, but Thalia? Mariah? Thalia is a goddess in Mexico...and Mariah during her heyday was huge until she divorced her sugar daddy. Then just became a "ho" and couldn't wait to get naked.

The Pepster

"Uribe for President...again"
ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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Rubiazo says on Oct 30, 2005, 11:02:

Bottom line is anybody who condemns females engaging in such 'whorish' behavior is condemning a LARGE part of the female population, and not a small chunk of the male population either! I think sex for money is a lot more honest and realistic AND constructive than the quagmire of many people's miserable excuses for marriages (my former marriage would be near the top of the list I'm sure).

The two most common grounds for campaigning against people's right to buy and sell sex are public health and violence against women. Both of these are valid and serious concerns. HOWEVER, BxUnika's naive suggestion that those who are looking for NSA should go pick somebody up at a bar, unfortunately THAT poses a far FAR FAR greater risk to public health than prostitution does.

When a pro is having sex on the job, s/he makes SURE that safe sex is followed because it is his/her life on the line every time. Sometimes this isn't the case, but people are FAR more likely to engage in unsafe sex when they just meet at a bar and hookup.

Frankly, this is also the worst quality sex you could usually have! You are generally talking about two people who don't know each others' bodies (or often even their OWN bodies) and are at least partially intoxicated. A pro on the other hand knows her own body on a much higher level, and she will figure her customer out pretty quickly too if she has half a brain!

As far as physical violence against women is concerned, it is no big secret that the majority of assaults, abuse, homicide etc. perpetrated on women is done by their very own husbands! Even in the case of pros it is usually their SO that hurts them, much more so than a client. So as far as I'm concerned if we want to reduce the danger of violence against women we should be banning MARRIAGE long before prostitution!!

Finally, as far as I'm concerned, anybody who wants to settle with one sexual partner for the REST OF THEIR LIFE must have some serious issues. As much as anybody wants to pretend otherwise, it's fucking BORING.

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BxUnika says on Oct 30, 2005, 11:23:

at Rubiazo "The two most common grounds for campaigning against people's right to buy and sell sex are public health and violence against women. Both of these are valid and serious concerns. HOWEVER, BxUnika's naive suggestion that those who are looking for NSA should go pick somebody up at a bar, unfortunately THAT poses a far FAR FAR greater risk to public health than prostitution does."

How so? Sex with a stranger is sex with a stranger. It's highly unlikely that your average Jane at a bar has bedded a fraction of how many people a hooker has.

"When a pro is having sex on the job, s/he makes SURE that safe sex is followed because it is his/her life on the line every time. Sometimes this isn't the case, but people are FAR more likely to engage in unsafe sex when they just meet at a bar and hookup."

This is your assumption. Yeah, if hookers are using protection at such high rates, why do so many of them have AIDS and others STDs? Who says a guy out for a night of NSA sex isn't going to use a condom? It's very hard to believe you live in the Bronx where I know AIDS is out of control, especially among prostitutes, and you're saying this. I guess churchs in the South Bronx set up booths on the sidewalks on sunny days convincing hookers and others to use condoms and clean needles because hookers are so worried about STDs?

"As far as physical violence against women is concerned, it is no big secret that the majority of assaults, abuse, homicide etc. perpetrated on women is done by their very own husbands!"

I guess all those hookers that are beaten by their pimps or wind up somewhere in the South Bronx in an abandon building or the East River are all a figment of our imagination.


"Even in the case of pros it is usually their SO that hurts them, much more so than a client. So as far as I'm concerned if we want to reduce the danger of violence against women we should be banning MARRIAGE long before prostitution!!"

You stopped making sense about ten minutes ago. Prostitution is a very risky job.

"Finally, as far as I'm concerned, anybody who wants to settle with one sexual partner for the REST OF THEIR LIFE must have some serious issues. As much as anybody wants to pretend otherwise, it's fucking BORING."

Rather stick with one person than die of AIDS or get a nasty case of herpes or crabs, but suit yourself. You once denied soliciting prostitutes, but it's pretty obvious you do. Buena suerte.

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BxUnika says on Oct 30, 2005, 11:26:

Prostitutes versus Casual Sex Prostitutes are more likely to use condoms? You are more likely to get something from a regular John/Jane Doe at a bar? In these poor neighborhoods and countries where prostitutes are so prevelant somehow these women are experts of health issues and contraception yet their non-prostitute sisters of all walks of life are not and thus and up single mothers or with STDS?

Anybody having trouble believing this?

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cam0940 says on Oct 30, 2005, 11:34:

A lot of people say that sex with one partner for the rest of their life is a boring proposition, and that's cool. I think the pursuit of new "conquests" gets boring too after a while. It turns into the same game with different characters. Buy a drink. Meaningless conversation mixed with flirting. You're fishing for your chances of getting back to her place or maybe her coming to mine (depending on whether I cleaned up before I went out). So finally you get the girl, you handle your business, and then what? You do the same thing next weekend? That gets boring after a while too. I mean, how much ass can one man have? The answer is... ALOT. But at some stage it does get boring and the whole conquest/adventure thing doesn't mean as much anymore. And there is absolutely no conquest in buying the sex. It's much more stimulating if you can talk her into it for the cost of a Cosmopolitan and cab fare. Much more fulfilling for the ego. But even then that gets boring. But I hear you Rubiazo saying that one partner--for some people--might be boring. I think the answer is to find other facets of the relationship that make it not boring. But just to find another piece of ass... you inevitably end up sitting there looking at her thinking "I really don't like this girl. I wish she'd get off my couch and go home. Why was it so important for me to bang her in the first place?" That's boring. I feel guilty writing this, but at the same time wanted to be as honest as I could about what I'VE experienced.

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cochopechocho says on Oct 30, 2005, 11:38:

Anybody having trouble believing this? Everything you have said sounds reasonalbe.

But just to add crediblity to your opinions, why don't you tell us how you know so much about prostitution. Are you in social work or law enforcement?

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BxUnika says on Oct 30, 2005, 12:32:

Re: Cochopechocho "But just to add crediblity to your opinions, why don't you tell us how you know so much about prostitution. Are you in social work or law enforcement?"

Well, for one, I lived and am frequently back in the Bronx, where Rubiazo lives. You see a lot of prostitution around there if you live in a rougher part, which I did. Also, most of us know a thing or two about drugs and AIDS because you see so much of it and read so much about it. I'm not sure if it's the same statistic anymore, but if I'm not mistaken, the South Bronx has the highest AIDS rate in the United States...at least it was that way in the early/mid-1990s. Even if you knew absolutely nothing about the Bronx, you'd probably really wonder as to why free condoms, pamplets about AIDS/STDs, and clean heroin needles are being exchanged for dirty, used ones on the streets of the South Bronx, sponsored by local churches. And would it be a coincedence that the majority of these individuals who are at the receiving end of it are not your average Jane and Joe, but rather prostitutes and their acquaintances?

What else? I still live in NYC and am currently doing my Master's in Urban Affairs. I have a Bachelor's in Sociology (with a background that includes including criminology, education, and race/ethnicity) and a minor in Latin American Studies (a lot of this has to do with social problems within Latin American communities in NYC and the Us, and AIDS is certainly one of the top problems). I'm not sure about other Soc programs in US universities, but whether you are studying education, criminology, social inequality, or anything else, in NYC it is almost certain that a) you will be studying or reading about the Bronx at some point and b) you will be focusing on the social ills in those neighborhoods (i.e., unemployment, teen pregnancy, high dropout rates, AIDS, high drug abuse rates, etc.).

Aside from that, I volunteered with a group whose purpose was to educate people about AIDS and I have intensely studied the Bronx since I was about 14 years old and have tons of books, articles, etc. with all sorts of statistics. I personally was never involved in prostitution, but I know people who directly and indirectly have been and were "buddies" with hookers, as Rubiazo claims to be. I hate to say it, but one of them is currently dying of AIDS. It's unfortunate, but not rare at all in that sort of lifestyle.

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Rubiazo says on Oct 30, 2005, 23:00:

at Unika Where did I say that i have never patronized pros? I have never said anything one way or the other, and I really don't see why it is relevant as to my opinions.

If you want a statistic, here is one. You are 1000 times more likely to contract HIV from a partner having vaginal intercourse without a condom than with one, assuming your partners' HIV statuses are not known. With anal sex, it actually increases to 6000 times more likely, because it is MUCH easier to get that way. These statistics apply to women on the receiving end. With oral sex, the data is irrelevant because there are no proven cases of anybody getting HIV from oral sex.

If you are a pro and not using condoms for vaginal and anal sex, then you are practising Russian roulette and are a menace to society. But the condom really does make all the difference in the world, statistically speaking. I have NEVER even heard of a pro anywhere in NYC performing full service or Greek without protection. Nor do I know anybody stupid enough to ask for it. Yes, i am DEFINITELY asserting that pros use condoms more than amateurs do. This is a fact based on my own first hand observations. The only place this is not true to my knowledge is in DR, which is why AIDS is rampant down there whereas it is in severe decline in most of the rest of the Western Hemisphere.

If you are having casual sex with people you pick up at bars and are practising safe sex, there is certainly nothing wrong with that. It's just that under those circumstances people tend to be less disciplined about that sort of thing.

And if you think the South Bronx is ANYTHING like it was in the early 90s you are really sorry mistaken, and need to come back for a reality check! The days of 'Girls of the Point' are long gone, girl. I know girls from Bronx and Queens who were commuting daily out to places like Newburgh and Bridgeport just to be able to work and not get shut down by LE.

As a matter of fact, I know plenty of people here living with HIV and AIDS, most of them got it from drug use, and a few got it from sex WITHOUT condoms. Funny thing, out of all of them I don't know ONE who got it while still practising safe sex.

I would LOVE for you to put your money where your mouth is and SHOW ME where it is that these girls are working without condoms, ANYWHERE in the Bronx. For that matter, it isn't even that easy to find an abandoned building anymore. I would actually be impressed if you would show me where these girls are still working, if it is as common as you say anymore. One only has to look at what has happened to real estate comparables to see how drastically the Bronx has changed in the past 15 years. But I guess you are too busy in your classroom to notice any of that!!

I also have noticed that the problem of pimping seems to not exist in countries where prostitution is legal or decriminalized. As long as it remains an underground activity, pimping will continue to be a serious problem, just as drug dealing and the related violence will continue to be a problem as long as there are severe punishments for it.

The real problem I have with people like you is that the LAST thing any of these girls need from anybody on Earth is your PITY or your SYMPATHY. What every human being really needs and deserves is RESPECT.

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Rubiazo says on Oct 30, 2005, 23:10:

at Cam I can hear you regarding winding up in the same old routine anyways. Sure there are plenty of things you can do to alleviate the boredom with one partner, but swinging is definitely one of them!

I guess monogamy is fine for some people, or at least I could believe that it's possible. I just have yet to see any empirical evidence of it ;)

I just went through eight whole months of celibacy from January to August. I really had no desire to pursue any of my options in NYC and preferred to wait for the next time I could see my gf in Bogota. I kinda surprised myself on that one, but celibacy was a nice change and something I really hadn't tasted pretty much since I was still a virgin.

The webcams and audio chat and etc etc sure helped a lot. I would also recommend www.cloneawilly.com for anybody involved in a long distance relationship. What better gift could you give than a piece of yourself?? :) I never realized how thick I was at the base, no wonder she complains so much, poor girl ;PPPP

Back in the days when I was a Christian, I used to be a lot like some people who post on here. I used to totally rip on my friends who were married and cheating, or who were mongering. I thought they were a bunch of complete retards to risk what they had for some cheap thrill. But once I walked a mile or two in their shoes, I realized what an asshole I had been. Since then I have learned not to be so quick to judge. Being sure of what is best for someone else when you are not even sure about what's best for you is the ultimate arrogance, and all too common these days!

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dwmte says on Oct 31, 2005, 04:35:

bravo, colombiche, i... respect not only your insight, but, as well, your comments and observations. thanks.

we've gone aside a bit from beauty pagents in the slam, but that's alright, any subject that prompts everyone's input can't be all that bad; can they?

personally, i feel that we would all be the better if we spent all this analysis on ourselves, going deep inside and examining our own drives, prompts and motives. passing all this judgement on those men and women who use their first possession--their bodies--to add to or simply produce income serves little but to demean the observer.

each and every human is faced with decisions throughout their lives that no other person can appreciate nor understand. if we feel any thing for or about others, it should be compassion--not pity--that the energy of our observations serves to strengthen them, not put them down. i'm as guilty as anyone here, as i've certainly spent a portion of my life doing what shouldn't be done. however, age tempering wisdom, i feel i've gained a bit in my observations of and feelings towards others to the extent that i feel that everyone, all the yous and mes of this world need support and compassion from others. one of my mentors once said, '....before judgeing another's life, we should sit down and eat a barrel of salt with them.' doing that would certainly bring us to a more common ground.

back to pagents, here again we are faced with decisions of compassion or punitive measures. one comment above felt that it was a waste of public monies to promote such. why? even the condemned has his choice of a last meal. is giving the incarcerated some liberty to feel life such a burden on the public? personally, i think not. those who study the effects on incarceration and it's ability to reform, to a man/woman, feel that compassionate therapy is the most solidly productive of corrective results. if we beat our dog for some infraction, we get negative results...thus sayeth pavlov. the same goes with our children and the folks at large.

let the ladies have their day in the sun, it's certainly not reinforcing negative behavior; on the contrary, it's building up self image and self respect. i'd much rather support my wife in her beauty activities than beat her down for the lack of them.

peace.

dw

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utopiacowboy says on Oct 31, 2005, 06:01:

Rubiazo, I can think of one reason to stick with one woman. Condoms! I hate wearing a rubber. So I'll stick with one woman and go bareback! But each to his own.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Colombiche says on Oct 31, 2005, 06:19:

Who is safe these days... Utopia- it is a good thing you brought up the point about going "bareback". In your case, I am sure you are a very faithful gentleman, so what I am going to say is not personally directed at you or anybody else here.
Do we know how many women today are nursing a gonorreah, herpes or even worse HIV, because they thought it was safe to go bareback with their husbands? I know a lady, very prim and proper Colombian lady who caught a VD from her hubby. She was home watching novelas while he was down in Cali "visiting family", came home and sure brought her back a little souvenir! At the end of the day, you are ultimately responsible for your well being. Sure you can trust your husband all you want, but are you willing to put your life on the line to prove your trust? Hmmm. Same goes for husbands too, although, I dare say (I hope I don't get lynched) that in the Latin community it is more commonplace for the husband to be unfaithful than for the wife to do the same. At least in the old school South American families, this is definitely the case.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Oct 31, 2005, 06:31:

Rubiazo I think the problem here is that you regard prostitution as one big pile of hay. You are not seeing the different subdivisions within the pile, to you it is all the same, it is prostitution -- period.

I don't see it that way. To me, the middle class 22 year old Canadian girl who decided to moonlight as a callgirl on the weekends (because during the week she attends University) is not on the same boat as the 15 year Haitian girl who sells her body to tourists so she can bring home some food. In this case, all my sympathy is for the young Haitian girl, not for the middle class callgirl. They are totally different situations! The Canadian girl has options. She decided to do this, good for her, her prerogative. The Haitian girl doesn't really have options. If she did, I am confident there would be like a 90% chance that she would rather do something else!

Read the lyrics to La Jinetera again, I think you missed the point. Do you think if this girl had a bunch of options, she would really say... NO, I'd rather sell my body to a bunch of sweaty old farts!!!!

There are women who do. Some don't.

One of the most shocking moments I lived in Colombia, was passing by a plaza in Pereira, where mothers actually sell their own young daughters to men. I know this story repeats itself in Sao Paolo, Buenos Aires.... Calcutta.....If you look closely enough, you spot mothers casually standing around with their 9 year old daughters, doing as though they were chatting it up with their neigbors. Are these young girls pros as well? NO!

I think, first step, we have to recognize that prostitution has many different facets, some of them far uglier than others.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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cam0940 says on Oct 31, 2005, 08:05:

That is a horrifying post, Colombiche.

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