Colombia still # 1 !!

Sr Tertius says on Jun 26, 2007, 19:37:

hmmm... the image didn't appear. But it's here and inside the UN's document.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

beckloud says on Jun 26, 2007, 20:25:

Wow !!!

beckloud

Sr Tertius says on Jun 26, 2007, 20:42:

Indeed... we're in the neighborhood of Sudan, Uganda, and Iraq.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

scotty says on Jun 26, 2007, 22:29:

I wonder how many people didnt have a phone before Uribe was in office?

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

goin_south says on Jun 26, 2007, 23:06:

"the largest number of newly displaced persons appeared during Uribe's first government."

I think you're stating "the residual effect", from the previous administration, as the 'direct, immediate effect' of Uribe's first term. Damn, Tertius. I know you're more politically astute than that.

..... leavin louisiana in the broad day light

Robert Jorge says on Jun 26, 2007, 23:30:

Welcome back goin south. How was it?

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 26, 2007, 23:56:

Didn't have a phone before Uribe? I was not aware Uribe's done anything so special to boost telecommunications in Colombia or improved the acquisitive capacity of poor Colombians.

Cheers,
Desi

(That is a huge amount of displaced people. My country, Finland, rehabilitated almost a half million evacuated citizens from the Carelian Isthmus after WWII, in one of the most successful mass repatriate efforts in post-war Europe and world. To rehabilitate 3 million is huge; perhaps the monies fromPlan Colombia should be destined to that great effort.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 26, 2007, 23:56:

Didn't have a phone before Uribe? I was not aware Uribe's done anything so special to boost telecommunications in Colombia or improved the acquisitive capacity of poor Colombians.

Cheers,
Desi

(That is a huge amount of displaced people. My country, Finland, rehabilitated almost a half million evacuated citizens from the Carelian Isthmus after WWII, in one of the most successful mass repatriate efforts in post-war Europe and world. To rehabilitate 3 million is huge; perhaps the monies fromPlan Colombia should be destined to that great effort.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

Gomezman5 says on Jun 27, 2007, 09:21:

Things may not be going that great under Uribe in this particular category, but they are in most others. You can't deny that can ya. Every day for the last couple of years, I have seeing all of you guys tell me how much more secure Colombia has gotten (it has), less kidnappings, (also true) and just an overall sense that things are moving in the right direction. They would not have rammed through a change in the Constitution to allow a sitting president to run for reelection if I was wrong. That action in and of itself is a pretty drastic one, so that to me spells out a ringing endorsement of Uribe.

As to the refugee situation....well Rome was not built in a day. With the exception of say Russia, I cannot think of any other country on the above map that I would rather live in. I wouldn't be caught dead in any of those African countries listed.....countries war lords and their bandits of gangs run around terrorizing each other and innocent third parties. Aside from beautifying and improoving the infrastructure of Bogota' what did Pastrana do? Oh yea, he was able to BS Clinton into handing out those billions for Plan Colombia. You remember Plan Colombia don't you......? The money that Colombia takes from us US taxpayers, but people on here are goofy enough to think that isn't needed. The refugee situation will get better, when other problems are solved. Besides, I don't have much confidence in the rhetoric of the U N High Com. I went to their home page, and the first thing I saw were Palestinians living in tents on the Syrian border that are in "desperate need of help." Really? I find that interesting. Does anybody know which country over the years were the most cruel to these people...going so far as to expell them from their land and kill them if they did not leave? Take a good guess everyone......Hint: Not Israel. Sorry. Now you're all stuck. Try Jordan. Yep, the expelled them or killed them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/27/newsid_4579000/4579685.stm

Notice, this is a clip from the BBC......a media outlet not exactly know for it's pro Israel or pro American stands. The Kuwaitis tossed them out too. No Middle Eastern or Northern Africa country ever wanted these people. Yet, this bull crap web site prominently displays the poor Palestinian people as refugees in tents on Syria's border. Why does not sorry take these people in? They had no problem taking in other terrorist from neighboring countries.

The UN High Com on Ref.......what a joke.

vicshere says on Jun 27, 2007, 09:41:

do you have a date for this map or when this information was gathered...I find it hard to believe with the war going on in Iraq that Colombia comes 1st

listo

Sr Tertius says on Jun 27, 2007, 11:08:

Scotty: "I wonder how many people didnt have a phone before Uribe was in office?"

Right, because that's the real issue here.

Going South: "I think you're stating "the residual effect", from the previous administration, as the 'direct, immediate effect' of Uribe's first term."

I'm not stating anything: I'm just making reference to the numbers. What is your "residual effect" hypothesis based on? Have you looked at the numbers? BTW, the numbers from CODHES also coincide with Defensoria and UNHCP, and none of them suggest a carry over effect from policies from the Pastrana admin. If it was relatively easy to shift the blame to someone else, Uribe would've done that long ago, as he has done with so many other issues. He knows better, though, and he stays relatively quiet on this particular point. That may work for him, but not for Colombia.

Desi: I think in theory part of the money from Plan Colombia is earmarked to go towards normalization of displaced population. But nobody is really enthusiastic about it because nobody is making much money out of it. It is very sad that the only way this government is going to do something is with money and pressure from the US congress. Talk about lack of dignity.

GM5: "Things may not be going that great under Uribe in this particular category, but they are in most others."

Yes, I don't deny that. But this is BIG problem, and a critical one if we aspire to have sustainable peace in the future, which is ostensibly #1 in Uribe's agenda. A quick look at history suggests that it is precisely the massive displacement of population that served as breeding ground for much of our current war.

"Every day for the last couple of years, I have seeing all of you guys"

Sorry, GM, we've gone through this more times than I care to remember. I ask you once more: Who the hell is "YOU GUYS"? If it doesn't include me, I suppose I shouldn't be answering your comment. I have also commented at least 8 times on who is supposed to take credit for improvement in security in large cities. That's an old topic.

"As to the refugee situation....well Rome was not built in a day."

You clearly didn't read my comment. I'm not saying that Uribe's solution is not working fast enough. I am saying--and every number backs me on this--that the problem has gotten worse during his administration. Besides, I don't see a clearly established policy on this matter.

"With the exception of say Russia, I cannot think of any other country on the above map that I would rather live in."

Your parochialism breaks my heart, but is beyond the point.

"Aside from beautifying and improoving the infrastructure of Bogota' what did Pastrana do?"

Actually Pastrana messed up Bogota pretty bad, particularly with the troncal de la Caracas. I don't see how that's relevant here, though. I suppose in terms of foreign policy he was such a fuck up that Uribe kept most of Pastrana's people in diplomatic positions.

"The money that Colombia takes from us US taxpayers"

Many a discussion of Plan Colombia has been done here. You need to qualify that statement if you want anyone to take you seriously on this.

"Besides, I don't have much confidence in the rhetoric of the U N High Com"

Tough shit.

Israel, Jordan, the Palestinians...? oh, I see, it's the old "shifting argument" tactic. Forgot about that one.

"The UN High Com on Ref.......what a joke"

Got better sources?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

Sr Tertius says on Jun 27, 2007, 11:11:

Vicshere: The year is 2006. The reason why Iraq is not more prominent is because most of the displacement produced by that war is not internal: Refugees are primarily going to Syria, Iran, some Gulf states and elsewhere.

This is part of the reason why Ecuador and Venezuela look at Colombia's security policy with some nervousness: If things get worse, those internally displaced may end up in their borders.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

Robert Jorge says on Jun 27, 2007, 12:13:

Actually it's 2007.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

goin_south says on Jun 27, 2007, 17:32:

How was it?

"IT" (Bogota) was magnificent! (So was/is my gf)
I'm writing a some memoires in another program, and will post in a few days.

Damn. I see our 'beloved' Gomezman5 has graced us for a moment. Como esta?


What is your "residual effect" hypothesis based on?
Tertius, I don't think I have to explain.
As said, I know you're more astute than to not understand.

..... leavin louisiana in the broad day light

juancegomez says on Jun 28, 2007, 05:50:

As Sr Tertius said, the numbers are from CODHES. They also reflect a change in the way that UNHCR was traditionally measuring this. Last year's numbers were using a different methodology / had a different source, so they're not directly comparable (no, there weren't 1 million additional displaced during a single year, not even CODHES is arguing that).

But It's also worth pointing out that CODHES measures (or tries to, to be exact) the people that have been displaced during more or less the last 20 years or so. So while the highest numbers of *newly displaced* people may have indeed occured during the Uribe administration and his government can't avoid that responsibility, the total figure per se has been accumulating over a longer time. I'm not sure if calling this a "residual" effect is appropiate, though.

Even UNHCR has acknowledged (in an EL TIEMPO article that brought the subject up) that one reason for the government's displacement figures being lower, in addition to considering different requirements when classifying a person as displaced, is the fact that CODHES includes figures going at least an extra 10 years back.

capitan_centella says on Aug 28, 2007, 21:06:

Im still wondering. . . why all the people related to colombia who lives ABROAD loves uribe?

Just one fact. . why all of you can answer in english?, how many of you ACTUALLY LIVES here? and see what´s going on? Not some PIB numbers, or missdirections polls, or fake news on colombia tv.(With 15 minutes of silicon girls, saying stupidities) . . just the reality. . . And Mr. tertius, yes, THATS A LOT OF PEOPLE, plain and scarred to get killed. And they discover, that the city is just more ruthless than the guerrilla or the paracos. In here they can die slowly. . .

"When you open your eyes, you turn around with the world, But it can change, if you only close it, and see a dream to yourself." Me.