Colombia rises five spots in UN Human Development Index
Norway is best place to live, China moves up: UN
Mon Oct 5, 7:53 am ET
PARIS (AFP) – Norway takes the number one spot in the annual United Nations human development index released Monday but China has made the biggest strides in improving the well-being of its citizens.
The index compiled by the UN Development Programme (UNDP) ranks 182 countries based on such criteria as life expectancy, literacy, school enrolment and gross domestic product (GDP) per capita.
Norway, Australia and Iceland took the first three spots while Niger ranks at the very bottom, just below Afghanistan.
China moved up seven places on the list to rank as the 92nd most developed country due to improvements in education as well as income levels and life expectancy.
Colombia and Peru rose five spaces to rank 77th and 78th while France -- which was not part of the top 10 last year -- returns to the upper echelons by moving up three places to number 8.
The UNDP said the index highlights the grave disparities between rich and poor countries.
A child born in Niger can expect to live to just over 50, which is 30 years less than a child born in Norway. For every dollar a person earns in Niger, 85 dollars are earned in Norway.
This year's index was based on data from 2007 and does not take into account the impact of the global economic crisis.
"Many countries have experienced setbacks over recent decades, in the face of economic downturns, conflict-related crises and the HIV and AIDS epidemic," said the UN development report's author Jeni Klugman.
"And this was even before the impact of the current global financial crisis was felt."
Afghanistan, which returns to the list for the first time since 1996, is the only Asian country among the bottom ten which also include Sierra Leone in the 180th spot, just below the Central African Republic.
The top ten countries listed on the index are: Norway, Australia, Iceland, Canada, Ireland, the Netherlands, Sweden, France, Switzerland and Japan.
The United States ranks 13th, down one spot from last year.
and it really shows....... everytime i visit, the down and out look so much better. i guess the UN is gathering their data direct from them these days. the UN is a joke...
"The index does not, include important indicators such as gender or income inequality nor more difficult to measure concepts like respect for human rights and political freedoms. What it does provide is a broadened prism for viewing human progress and the complex relationship between income and well-being.
Of the components of the HDI, only income and gross enrolment are somewhat responsive to short term policy changes. For that reason, it is important to examine changes in the human development index over time. The human development index trends tell an important story in that respect. Between 1980 and 2007 Colombia's HDI rose by 0.59% annually from 0.688 to 0.807 today."
This also shows that the increase between 1980 & 2007 has been continuous. And in South America, Colombia is just behind Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Venezuela, and Brazil. It is tied with Peru ahead of Ecuador, Paraguay, Bolivia, and Guyana.
Although for the 'common man' these stats have little meaning they do put Colombia in a good light of steadily increasing its way of economic life. On the scale it puts Colombia in a High Human Development. Something to be very proud of for all Colombians.
And now for those people who can never say a kind word about anything or who make a point of dishing Colombia almost every chance they get...it's your turn.
whitewidow, if you had taken the time it took for you to make your sophomoric comment you would have noted that this UN report specifically states that the human relations aspect was not measured. Nor were the inequities of gender salary differences.
"The HDI provides a composite measure of three dimensions of human development: living a long and healthy life (measured by life expectancy), being educated (measured by adult literacy and gross enrolment in education) and having a decent standard of living (measured by purchasing power parity, PPP, income). The index is not in any sense a comprehensive measure of human development. It does not, for example, include important indicators such as gender or income inequality nor more difficult to measure concepts like respect for human rights and political freedoms. What it does provide is a broadened prism for viewing human progress and the complex relationship between income and well-being."
This report is not meant to measure saving lives...read more and spew less might be a good way to go.
I'll take Colombia at #78 over Canada at #4 any day. The HDI is full of shit. Colombia es la puta verga.. I wouldn't live in Canada again with a gun stuck to my head. Some things you just can't measure objectively.
Felicidades a Colombia! Let us hope that this trend continues! We all know things cannot change overnight in any of the developing countries of Latin America (or the world), but we can nevertheless be happy that some things are heading in the right direction. Even Rome wasn't built in a day, as the saying goes...
Good grief romy, this index is not supposed to and it specificaly says that. Read the damn thing will ya...then go ahead and dish on Colombia when you have something relevant to say.
BEVAN you KANGAROOJACK MOFO... where the fuck ya been ya jackrabbit?
"PAY ATTENTION! I wonder if that person knows that when we push the FUNNY button, its because we are reading something outrageous, trying to be cynical, derogatory, sarcastic and/or obnoxious!"
romy, how precisely does this study not factor in the quality of life for humans? Before you respond lemme note that I'm not saying it measures it perfectly or universally, but then again no study does that. But it's your contention that it doesn't measure it at all so I'd love to hear an argument supporting such a proposition.
Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. ---- Thomas Jefferson
"PAY ATTENTION! I wonder if that person knows that when we push the FUNNY button, its because we are reading something outrageous, trying to be cynical, derogatory, sarcastic and/or obnoxious!"
jimbo- there are many more factors that need to be taken into account for it to be a depiction of quality of life. The point being that when so many factors are involved, leaving some out skews the measure. In particular the measure needs to consider human rights for it to come anywhere close to measuring quality of life. For a country like Canada, human rights abuses to the native population would bump it down from the top 5. I'm afraid the HDI does not hold up as a quality of life measure, though I don't disagree with you in that there are elements to it that are part of quality of life, such as education etc.
anyone who commented on this thread has too much free time on their hands and needs to get another job, in preparation for the World's upcoming Recession (yeah,... reloaded recession)
nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.
romy, let me say that I partially agree: the HDI is not a comprehensive, all-encompassing measure of quality of life for any country. However, your argument was initially that the study "doesn't take into account quality of life for humans" which you've now admitted wasn't entirely true.
But to say it doesn't hold up as a quality of life measure is misguided. Nowhere in the report does it pretend to be a universal yardstick of quality of life. It is after all named the 'Human Development Index' as opposed to something like the 'Human Quality of Life Index.' It includes measures of life quality but uses those numbers to determine development/devolution along a chronological line. So what you're doing by pointing out that it's not a universal measure of life quality is setting up a straw man, knocking down an argument never offered by anyone other than you. But you compounded that problem by later admitting that in fact the report DOES measure parts of life quality which consequently destroys the first part of your argument.
Keep in mind that I've never argued the HDI is a thorough measure of life quality; I made that explicit above. My point is not that the HDI proves Colombians are 'there' in terms of economics and political freedoms, but is instead that certain aspects of Colombian quality of life are verifiably improving - something to which you've tacitly agreed. So since your argument is both a straw man and later contradicted by you I'm not sure there's much left to say until you can come up w/ something more consistent.
Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. ---- Thomas Jefferson
I understand the HDI measure. I brought up human quality of life because whale quality of life was brought up, of course I consider human quality of life more important. Does it make sense to you now?
I stand behind everything I've said in this thread. Pretend HDI did account for quality of life, this would mean that quality of life is embedded in HDI, which is not true. I conceded there's some aspects of quality of life that are in HDI, but quality of life is not accounted for in HDI.
What you're missing is that it doesn't matter why you interjected the quality of life argument as it's still just a straw man. In fact it's the definition of one.
But even worse is that you can't seem to figure out what you're arguing. I mean this sentence is either just a language barrier or a complete cluster****: "I conceded there's some aspects of quality of life that are in HDI, but quality of life is not accounted for in HDI." They mean two different things big guy. "Some aspects" having residence in some thing intrinsically means those things are accounted for in that thing. That's simple physics. I'm in my house ergo I'm accounted for in my house.
I think what you're meaning to say is that HDI partially addresses quality of life (which I'm now sick of typing so I'll call it QOL) but that it doesn't wholly define it. That's a fair statement but is again your own straw man which, if you must argue w/ yourself I won't stop you, but isn't something I've ever argued against. What you're trying to do is argue a point not seriously made by anyone here, least of all the report. It's a tertiary subject which you seem rather intent on debating - with yourself no less - but I've already agreed HDI isn't the sole determinant of QOL so I'm not sure why you're pressing the point. I was merely trying to elicit the truth from you regarding the fact that HDI most certainly DOES have QOL factors in it, thus it's useful for determining COL's growth in certain areas. You've admitted that so I'll let you rip yourself apart arguing w/ yourself on your straw man. Have fun!
Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. ---- Thomas Jefferson
For me the word accountability has a holistic embrace on the subject. Therefore, if a subject is partially included, it is not accounted for.
Besides, that argument is beside the point. I'm still not sure you understood that my initial comment was a reply to billyb's comment, THERE'S NO STRAW MAN. I made no attempt to refute the report.
If you want to debate with me Colombia's development we can do that as well, just remind yourself that I didn't deal with that topic directly up to this point. Colombia's HDI rise of 0.007 should mean something like Venezuela's HDI rose 0.011. Perhaps you can elucidate what these mean?
romy, np. Like I said it could've (and apparently was) a language barrier.
But w/ respect to billyb's comment and your reply, I take offense that you think I'm stupid enough to believe you weren't attempting to rebut the report's point w/ your comments. Guy, I'm not some gringo jagoff from Backwoods, AR who can't process an argument (my apologies to the fine folks of Backwoods, AR). Your comments were absolutely leveled to refute the report as evidenced by them, ipso facto, and by your subsequent statements which attempted to differentiate QOL from the HDI. In fact you're STILL differentiating that. And the straw man there is that the report itself is silent on QOL and instead plainly states it measures growth indicators. In case we're having another language barrier, growth indicators != QOL. When positive they == potential for QOL. (sorry, programmer speak there). You'd do well to understand both what a straw man is and why anyone with an IQ over, say, 40 would reject a lie suggesting that someone's tongue-in-cheek response about whales gave you the intellectual imprimatur to bring up a logical (although factually bankrupt) argument. At this point even Sarah Palin would realize you're trying to manipulate her w/ BS. And that's saying something.
I'm not trying to be rude. I'm really not. But w/ respect I suggest you've got nothing w/ which to debate Colombia's development as what you've most recently done is to completely misinterpret the numbers. Look, PPP is a real, not nominal, number. That means that to the extent one country's HDI rise owes even partially to a PPP increase it has nothing to do with another's HDI 'valuation.' So no, COL's HDI rise of any percent has no bearing to or relationship w/ Venezuela or any other country. Again, they're dependent upon real and not nominal numbers. You do know the difference right? And you also know the PPP growth isn't the sole determinant of HDI growth? That perhaps COL had higher literacy rates, school enrollment, etc.? C'mon man.
romy, I'm not patronizing you w/ this but I can plainly see you're a bright guy. I mean it. But please don't insult me w/ bullshit about you just playing off of billyb's tongue-in-cheek comments about whales as we both know that's ... whale feces. Don't we? And we both also know that you're now and have been trying to dismiss, marginalize, or otherwise diminish the absolute accomplishment COL has achieved by way of discounting the measurable numbers betraying those accomplishments. It's offensive to me (although I can't figure out why since I'm not Colombian), but it's offensive to logic and mathematics as well.
Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. ---- Thomas Jefferson
jimbo,
1. get real! me and billyb bicker all the time. I understood his 'tongue-in-cheek' to in a way discredit Norway by bringing up a PETA issue. For Canada he could have brought up the seals. It's ironic, your attempt to debate me in something that was not the intention of my comment directed at someone else is more of a straw man, than me defending what I say. Again, I didn't bring up QOL so that I could knock it down, that's a waste of my time.
It's a shame that you've taken it personally to me because I see you know what you are talking about. Though you continue to misinterpret my comments.
2. I never implied there was a relationship between the HDI of Colombia and Venezuela, I just wanted a starting point comparison for debating development. I think a critical starting point is determining why HDI went up? don't you?
3. If I saw progress in Colombia, I would be ecstatic. I'm from Colombia and proud of it. I hope you can understand that someone can be critical of their nation without being treacherous.
note: I have no ulterior motives and that's what often confuses others here. please don't look for things in what I write other than what is actually there as it's bound to be flawed.
If you want to see progress here, just a suggestion maybe you should actually try COMING here :P
Despite the horse's ass we have for a mayor here in Bogota we are still going forward in every dimension. I'm more and more proud to call this place my home each day. And I regularly hang out in neighborhoods in the south you've probably never even heard of, places I'm supposed to be scared to go to.
1. I'll let my argument stand on its merits. The proof is here on the page for anyone to see.
2. Yeah, knowing why HDI increased is important. Then again the numbers are broken down on the UN's HDI page so it's not a mystery either. http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/
3. If you're from COL you might want to fix your profile. Right now it says you're in Canada and were born in Argentina, neither of which are defaults on the PBH registration system.
Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. ---- Thomas Jefferson
2. A quick review of the numbers indicate that Colombia would rank a lot higher if so many people didn't want to leave (were forced to leave) Colombia. I wonder why?
3. The information is correct that I was born in Argentina and live in Canada. Not withstanding I'm from Colombia.
1. hahahaha right. 5 responses worth of 'not participating.' Good one.
2. Well, only the 'quickest' review of the numbers would indicate that, as looking a bit longer - and more importantly, looking while understanding economics - would suggest otherwise. But it's your argument. Let's hear how you support it.
3. Bwahahahaha. Right, neither having been born nor currently residing in a country always makes someone 'from' there. I guess I'm 'from Colombia' too, eh sport?
Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. ---- Thomas Jefferson
1. I was responding to you but never arguing for what you thought I was arguing...
2.Colombia has an emigration rate of 3.9%(#117) while 0.3% of the population are immigrants (#174)...
3. perhaps I should destroy my Colombian passport and all my family ties to the country because you have a limited concept?
I assume you are implying that NAFTA made it easier for Canadians to immigrate to the US, in which case you are absolutely wrong. It got harder in 1985, harder still in 1996 and still harder today. NAFTA had aboslutely zero to do with immigration. And yes, there are Canadians working cleaning toilets in the US, just as their are Colombians working as professionals.
If Colombia is so horrible how come they are all coming back now? That might be a more relevant question? And what are people like me doing here, you couldn't pry me away to save my life at this point.
2. And? What's your point? What specifically would that do to PPP, adult life expectancy, etc.?
3. Doesn't change that you aren't 'from' there. You may have lived there but you weren't born there and aren't living there now. I lived in Thailand. Am I Thai? I also lived in Kenya. Am I a Thai Kenyan? Shit I've also lived in America. Am I a Thai, Kenyan American? The list goes on. I was born in America so I'm FROM America. You were born in Argentina so you're FROM Argentina.
Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. ---- Thomas Jefferson
The debate surrounding the yearly release of the HDI tends to be a spirited one, and I have always believed the UN quants realize this, and look forward to the back and forth it engenders as a way of ginning up the centrality of their institution as the arbiter of the most awesome countries to be from or to live in.
It is a quantifiably verifiable fact that this report promotes the smugness of the Dutch, Scandinavian, Aussie and Canuck UN workers who form an inordinate proportion of the contingent of social science researchers who prepare these type of reports for the UN. I don't think its entirely irrelevant to mention that the Norwegian Refugee Council in the last 2 years alone created 9,000 jobs at the UN, mostly through funding the UNHCR, an organization which is a major contributor of the data points that help comprise these rankings. Fantastically huge oil reserves and a tiny population really seem to help one reach the moral high ground.
But all this aside, the limited and slightly spurious debate (all this talk of a straw man makes me want to whack the crap out of a pinata already) between jimbo and romy (and others from the sidelines) is still an interesting one that cuts to the bone of the meaning of the HDI report.
What value do quantitative metrics such as the HDI have in predicting what it's like to live somewhere like Colombia? Even the UN folks admit that this is what it boils down to.
The answer to this is, of course, that it depends on how you live. If you are an oligarch in a walled compound, the report might be interesting from a theoretical perspective or for investment purposes. If you are a gringo ex-pat or a Colombian living abroad it might be useful as cannon fodder in a debate for or against something upon which your position has long since hardened (see above). Does this mean context is everything and the HDI ranking is adrift in a sea of relativity?
No.
The UN folks would argue, and I suspect they are at least partially right, if you are a low/middle income national (although not indigent), the report should reflect some basic experiential facts of the economic landscape you inhabit, which in turn impacts to a greater or lesser degree, your social landscape, your "QOL."
Economists recognize the limitations of stuff like the UN report. Famously, the Bhutanese government tries to measure happiness as a better indicator of QOL, and even the stodgy US Dept. of Labor is trying to introduce a useful metric for childcare, volunteering, and socializing (http://www.bls.gov/tus/).
But this doesn't mean that the report is horse puckey, just that it should be understood as targeted to a specific demographic, and as report qua report can only be judged according to those limited criteria, and as such in no way reflects the benefit of a nice coldie on a hot Chocoano beach or the cost of witnessing the disinterment of a mass grave.
jimbo,
2. It's accounted for in HDI... I'm wondering your opinion of why so many people have to leave Colombia?
3. The issue of identity has been discussed to great detail in many places. The limited concept of assuming that a person is from the place that he/she was born is extremely superficial. I identify with Colombian culture because its what I was raised with. I'm honored to have a Colombian passport and take my Colombian citizenship rights seriously such as voting and keeping a certain level of awareness of what is happening there.
Gatogris, I too think the whole straw man debate was ridiculous. I guess I rubbed jimbo the wrong way and he wanted to start a debate with me over something that wasn't concerning me at the time.
Huella, NAFTA has meant increased business. The majority of Canadians living in the US are there because of this. That and physicians wanting to take advantage of the vulnerability in US health care. Many Americans live in Canada for similar reasons. Spain was paying for Colombians to return, I bet many conservatives hope the US would do the same.
Why would I provide my opinions to you when you refuse to back up anything you say? I've asked you to support the argument YOU made regarding emigration and the HDI yet all you've provided is 'it's included.' Uh huh. How, guy? When you present an argument it's your job to demonstrate it. I await that. Still. I also await an explanation of you making that argument whilst saying you're 'not participating' in the debate on that same subject. Ought to be a special moment.
You can 'identify' w/ whatever you like. But you being 'from Colombia' w/o being born there or living there now is patently ridiculous. But I don't deny anyone their delusions so have at them, I guess.
RE you 'rubbing me the wrong way'. No, not really. I've nothing against you personally. But your 'logic' did rub me the wrong way, as do your continuing lies about 'not participating' in the debate. A quick review of your responses to me elicits the crystal clear fact that you were in fact engaged in the debate, although after having lost you now say didn't 'participate.' Sure ya didn't. I mean your statement that "Pretend HDI did account for quality of life, this would mean that quality of life is embedded in HDI, which is not true" surely betrays someone not participating in an HDI discussion. Man, your chutzpah is staggering.
RE straw men: Guy, the OP posted the HDI piece which showed COL's improvement. You made the statement that "For Colombia's sake it's a good thing it doesn't take into account quality of life for humans." Those are YOUR words; the context behind them means little b/c if they were meant tongue-in-cheek you could've simply said so. But you didn't, thus you must have the integrity to own them. That's how statements work. And since QOL is not the focus of an HDI index that's what's known as a straw man argument - one presented to distract attention from the valid point made while giving the disingenuous straw man arguer something to knock down. That you don't see that shows your own dishonesty, nothing more. Color it however you like but your dishonesty is the most vivid shade in this thread.
Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. ---- Thomas Jefferson
Why do Colomnbians leave Colombia? The PERCEPTION that they will be better off economically..... Which is the same reason just about ANYBODY emigrates... Canadians go to the US for the same reason... Canada´s standard of living is way below that of the US, perhaps not as far below as Colombias, but enough to make a BIG difference...
I have lived in all three countries and know them intimately, I still choose Colombia.... by your (lack of) logic I should have packed up and moved back long ago.... why somebody would want to leave this country UNLESS they had a real good financial situation lined up somewhere else, frankly it's beyond me. I think they're idiots. No, correction, i KNOW they're idiots because I've been there, done that myself! People here have NO IDEA how good they have it.
Good points Huella. I was more asking him what the emigration would mean to Colombia's HDI index but your point cuts to the heart of the issue so good job.
I'd add to your point that some people are choosing COL over the US (and other countries). Except in some circumstances that almost always means a lower salary. So if Colombia is such a 'bad' place I guess I wonder why people are voluntarily choosing it, and doing so (mostly) at the price of their wages. There will always be some people in EVERY country who don't like it. That fact, tho, doesn't mean the country is a bad place. It's just evidently not ideal for those people.
Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. ---- Thomas Jefferson
The worst part about Canada is the cold. I don't understand how people can possibly enjoy living in such environments.
Canada's net migration rate (immigration - emigration) is the highest in the developed world, at 5.5. It is considerably higher than the UK's or US's (2), and even (surprisingly) Australia (3.5). Colombia's is quite low, in fact negative. I meet more and more Colombians in Canada every day, who have no desire of going back to Colombia.
Canada must be doing something right.
LH, I generally tend to agree with you, but here I don't necessarily. "Canada´s standard of living is way below that of the US". I'm sure that is true given your set of preferences, but the HDI and various other indicators say otherwise.
Jimbo "So if Colombia is such a 'bad' place I guess I wonder why people are voluntarily choosing it, "
More people are choosing to leave it than to move there, as Romy correctly points out. Furthermore, I don't think anyone here has claimed that Colombia is a 'bad' place.
I realize that Colombia isn't exactly the No. 1 destination for immigrants, but the topic was EMIGRATION here, and on that, Colombia is neck and neck with many other countries way higher on that precious HDI index.
The HDI specifically does NOT measure wealth or standard of living, it measures other things like life expectancy etc. The fact is the average Canadian has a LOT less disposable income than the average Yank, although the gap admittedly has closed a helluva lot in the past couple years.
And I wouldn't call bringing in criminals from all over the planet and paying their way while Canadian citizens go hungry "doing something right"
I also would choose Colombian health care over Canadian in a cold second. Actually "would" is the wrong tense, I very much DO choose it.
Jimbo, sorry I meant a 'quick review' because that's what I did just look at he numbers on the Colombia section quickly... I didn't look at the HDI formula, little did I realize it was so limited as it only considers GDP per capita, life expectancy and literacy rates. More so now, I'm inclined to say that quality of life is barely included in HDI.
It does remain true that I never meant to discuss quality of life, you brought it upon me when you misunderstood my comment. (I'm not sure why I need to keep repeating this to someone that apparently has much logic)
Huella,
"why somebody would want to leave this country UNLESS they had a real good financial situation lined up somewhere else, frankly it's beyond me. I think they're idiots. No, correction, i KNOW they're idiots because I've been there, done that myself! People here have NO IDEA how good they have it."
I guess you have never had a family member kidnapped, extorted, or killed by one of the many criminal organizations in Colombia. I guess by preserving their lives they are idiots?
Also, I would suggest that certain environments are better for certain individuals. You seem to have flourished in Colombia, many people (over 50% of the population is in poverty) don't. Many of these individuals from lower strata that have struggled to survive in Colombia, have flourished in Canada because the system allows for social movement, I know many examples of this.
MIR, Colombia is great place. Will I be seeing you in Cali for feria this year?
Huella, your comment on health care is strictly because you can afford to pay a private system. Most of Colombia relies on an inadequate public system. Simply put, the average Canadian receives much higher quality health care than the average Colombian.
Are you schizophrenic? I ask because clearly you're operating of two minds here. I mean you keep saying you "never meant to discuss quality of life" and that you "didn't participate," yet I'm struck by the seeming clarity of this gem which preceded those statements: "I brought up human quality of life because whale quality of life was brought up." You said all three of those things, romy. You brought it up, you admitted you did, and now you're saying you didn't and - despite the many posts contradicting the position - that you "didn't participate." Did your second personality log in as you?
Regarding HDI, how could I ever doubt someone who thinks that better education, higher adult life expectancy, and PPP increases don't constitute a measure of QOL. I mean we all know that educational enrollment and completion isn't important, adults living short lives is just an arbitrary number, and that PPP (the ability of people to buy local goods and services) means absolutely nothing in regard to people's QOL. Maybe another one of your "quick looks" (I'd recommend several longer ones, tho) would familiarize you with why those numbers actually ARE important.
Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. ---- Thomas Jefferson
manlNred, No one explicitly claimed that, but if you read the myriad posts knocking COL's health care system, HDI index, and the like you'd have to be blind to miss the implicit argument.
As to more people choosing to leave, the Colombian diaspora is widely viewed to be in its waning stages following the relative security improvements and economic growth in the country. It is true that many Colombians fled the conditions of their country (mostly between 1980 and 2000 or so), but the truth is that the statement "More people are choosing to leave it than to move there" would be more accurate if rephrased to "more people WERE choosing to leave it," as again the diaspora is waning by almost every independent number I've seen.
I think the point is that Colombia is an improving nation. Does that mean it's perfect and the hard work is over? Of course not. But when people try to implicitly or explicitly knock tangible achievements it makes one wonder about their motivations.
Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. ---- Thomas Jefferson
jimbo, you don't understand the dynamics of my relation with billyb, we give each other a hard time all the time. People usually learn from us, ignore us or laugh at us. My comment was directly aimed at him (I've said this before...) therefore to be taken in that context. If you want to make up other meanings to my words then that's entirely up to you, but do not involve me.
I never said HDI ABSOLUTELY doesn't involve quality of life. (are we going in circles?)
if you don't understand what I say, please ask. Because your assumptions continue to make you stray.
romy, follow the progression of our conversation w/ me for a second so you can see why your nascent excuse of some grabassing w/ billyb is unbelievable.
1. You said "For Colombia's sake it's a good thing it doesn't take into account quality of life for humans."
2. I responded by asking you how the study fails to take that into account.
3. Rather than simply responding to me by saying it was some joke between you and billyb, you said "there are many more factors that need to be taken into account for it to be a depiction of quality of life. The point being that when so many factors are involved, leaving some out skews the measure. In particular the measure needs to consider human rights for it to come anywhere close to measuring quality of life. For a country like Canada, human rights abuses to the native population would bump it down from the top 5. I'm afraid the HDI does not hold up as a quality of life measure, though I don't disagree with you in that there are elements to it that are part of quality of life, such as education etc."
You see what's missing in there, right? Any reference to billyb. And the reason it's missing is because you responded to my question w/ that argument which I then took apart by demonstrating how HDI actually does measure QOL to some degree. Billyb was evidently unimportant to you at that time, but after having realized that in fact HDI does measure QOL - and admitting so - you realized that argument was untenable and are now searching to make your statement something other than what it PLAINLY was, alas the billyb defense. But after that defense you've now admitted that in fact you WERE being critical of COL when you said "that's my motivation to be critical."
It's really not a huge deal, something which makes me question all the more why you can't just be honest and admit that you did in fact engage in the debate (evinced by the quote I provided in this post), brought up QOL (as you admitted), and only moved to the billyb defense AFTER losing the debate about HDI and QOL. It's patently obvious my friend, and it's also a very small thing. But you're making it a rather stinging indictment of your character by lying about what's plainly visible on this page.
However you want to approach it is your decision. If it were me I'd simply admit I did what I plainly did and move along. It's called integrity, and in this case it's just a stupid forum debate between two people who don't know e/o or even have a vested, monetary stake in 'winning' the debate. But if you want to continue lying to me then I guess conversation w/ you is impossible. That's a shame b/c you seem rather intelligent.
Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. ---- Thomas Jefferson
Jimbo, when you engaged me you asked "how precisely does this study not factor in the quality of life for humans? Before you respond lemme note that I'm not saying it measures it perfectly or universally, but then again no study does that. But it's your contention that it doesn't measure it at all so I'd love to hear an argument supporting such a proposition."
So my response is to that question, it didn't involve billyb because you didn't ask me why I made the comment, you just asked what I meant by the comment and it was explained. Also, I never admitted HDI measures QOL entirely, only partially. Only when you implied I brought up QOL as a straw man, was it necessary for me to explain why my comment referred to QOL as it pertained to a comment of billyb.
Is it now easier to follow?
romy, I've never asked you why you made the comment so your point regarding you not mentioning the billyb thing is errant. The fact is that when asked about the hypothesis YOU proposed you answered w/ a defense - an argument. Once that argument was proven incorrect (remember, you said HDI "doesn't take into account quality of life for humans" which you later and have again revised to HDI "partially" accounting for it) you then shifted into the billyb defense. If the billyb defense were actually valid you would've responded to my initial query by simply telling me it was directed towards him and in jest. Instead you initially tried to defend it, couldn't, and then moved away from it.
I understand perfectly why you mentioned the billyb thing, but what I'm saying is that doesn't excuse the fact that you initially argued and still are arguing that HDI doesn't thoroughly assess QOL. That's not what the study was meant to prove, thus it's a straw man argument to bring it up. Or it could've been a joke. But if it were you wouldn't have tried to defend it initially, and wouldn't now still be arguing that it's an incomplete measure of QOL. And I know that to be true b/c just today I had to retract something which I said as a joke which was then argued against on a serious level. I didn't try to present a counterargument or defend what I'd said. I simply said I was kidding and moved along. But that's b/c I was actually kidding. Here, though, as evidenced by all of your commentary against the HDI you can't expect anyone to seriously buy your effort to brand your statement as some teasing between you and billyb. Like I said, if it were then you'd have simply told me that right upfront just as I did when challenged in the same way.
And since you quoted my words back to me I'm struck by one more thing. My words explicitly said that YOUR CONTENTION was that HDI didn't measure QOL. If that wasn't a contention of yours - if I'd made a mistake - then why didn't you mention that until much later? It'd seem to me that if someone misinterpreted my remarks or attributed something to me which was wrong that I'd clear that up quite quickly. But you didn't dispute that it was your contention, thus you gave tacit agreement that it was in fact your contention. And that means that the billyb defense is rubbish b/c it was your contention all along to present your argument.
What I can see tho is that you're forever going to try and defend the indefensible. I have better things to do w/ my time than to debate w/ someone not terribly concerned w/ truth so I'll be stopping my responses to you. Good luck to you and have a nice day!
Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. ---- Thomas Jefferson
Phew, well you guys really justified some paychecks on this one! The Web at work is a beautiful thing. The way it gets people to work for nothing is pretty awesome.
Just imagine if a corporation could generate the amount of effort it takes to parse out the absurd levels of argumentative minutiae that such a thread provides.
Fortune 500 here I come!
Unfortunately, most corporate environs (and most institutions of all kinds, sadly) are terrible at generating the vibe of putting one's personal integrity on the line. And thus, we wile away the hours with our families and in our work places and save our best, and most rigorous, logic skills for inconsequential douche-baggery. Vive-la-PBH!
Jimbo, you continue to try to justify your wrongful assumption as being right. I explained to you what I meant by the initial comment and why I made it so it's laughable that you try to refute this. Of course you believe you know my intentions better than I know them? Sadly this cannot be possible unless if you're a fortune teller or otherwise Godly creature.
If you want to forget your faulty assumption and debate the usefulness of HDI then we can do that, but you need to get off your imaginary high horse that you've made for yourself and deal with the debate on real terms. I don't have the ability to follow you into fantasy land, you'll have to excuse me for that.
Excellent question - does the neologism douche-baggery need an adverbial modifier like inconsequential? Yes, in this case I think it serves to drive home the point - but this is a stylistic decision, not to be taken lightly, but still a matter of feel rather than strict emphasis, as far as structure goes...
Romy realmente te das garra mk, you are making a whole bunch of wrong assumptions...
Remember, I was attacked and stabbed five times here. Anybody who has been reading this forum as long as you have should remember that. So YES I know about how rough this place can be. And I STILL prefer it any day over even the best Canada has to offer.
Your comments about the bottom 50% of society are frankly insulting as hell. I don't think any of my friends living in south Bogota want you to stand up and speak for them, especially when you express the exact OPPOSITE of what they feel.
As for health care, once again you are orinando fuera del tiesto. I have been in public hospitals in both countries, they are equally horrible. At least here in Colombia you have a choice. As for social mobility, I got very sick of the loser culture in Canada, the cult of mediocrity, and the fact that the stupidest and most worthless 10% of society gets the most attention. That is why I find Colombia to be a better match for me. Here in Colombia if you're stupid or lazy you SUFFER for it. I like that.
I think you are a little unclear on the whole concept of social mobility. You seem to be under the perception that poor people here have no way to improve their lot in life. This is another concept that has no basis in reality.
Huella, I thought your incident was some random punks in the street, the kind of crime that can happen anywhere many say? What I'm talking about is the systematized oppression of certain people by the criminal groups. The kind that force you to leave your home, you know over 3 million Colombians are internally displaced. And then the huge numbers that have to go abroad (about 1 million).
Specifically, what is something that your friends in south Bogota express that I'm the opposite? Do they think they deserve less because they are lazy? Give me a break, since a young age my parents have forced me to have friends of all social strata and in Colombia it meant I talked with the little indian or the little chocano that were constantly hungry and ill. These conversations are what have shaped my views of Colombia. It contrasts greatly with the people I went to school with, the strato 6 that believe they are a gift to the country so deserve more (God given almost always... Gracias a Dios).
Few people have that choice of private care in Colombia. I don't think you have any basis to say public hospitals are equal in both Canada and the US. Can you give a specific example. I know if we are talking about comprehensiveness of treatment or waiting times, then you are being delusional.
How can you prove your view of social mobility in Colombia? I don't think you understand the power structures in Colombia, the hierarchy that has been implemented restricts what people can achieve in their lives. There is no equal opportunity.
romy
"How can you prove your view of social mobility in Colombia?"
Colombia has one of the best healthcare system fro latinamerica. Do you know how many people are afiliated to EPS and SISBEN?
Romy, I dunno if you're being dumb on purpose or not but I just finished writing I HAVE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH THE PUBLIC HOSPITAL SYSTEM HERE. It's not any worse than what you'd get subjected to in Canada. And let's not even get started about wait times. I lost my grandmother waiting for surgery in that paradise of a country you live in, so cut the crap, OK?
And you're also way off base talking about the internal displacement as if it has anything to do with emigration... you really think the poor peasants forced out of their homes are boarding planes and heading for greener pastures, no, parcerito, we are stuck with them HERE. And frankly considering just how many of them there are I think the system is doing an incredibly good job of helping them get started again. When you think of the incredible burden placed on Bogota and Medellin by the displacement, it's a miracle that either city functions at ALL...
Most of my friends in the south of Bogota think the people living in the bubble in the northeast are a bunch of materialistic pathetic mincing pansies who have no flavor, and for the most part I agree with them. They don't give a fuck that people in the north eat at McDonalds more, or shop at Studio Prepago, or take taxis more and walk less. They are interested in making money and getting ahead but NOT at the expense of other areas of their life. Which is a lesson I'm doing my best to learn from them, because it's a really good lesson!!
Makopp don't forget SENA. Canada and the US don't have ANYTHING like SENA. So much for the so-called "first world" if you ask him.
Amusingly enough, we have come full circle to exactly the type of debate that the UN HDI is actually designed to resolve - relative quality of health care AND economic and social mobility in two countries where sophisticated statistical data is readily available (as aforementioned, quality of life is a lot more tricky to determine - after all, many people all over the world find that it is essential to their quality of life to have someone defecate all over their face). One country is ranked 4th and the other 77th.
Not that this will make any difference to most of those posting here, for whom believing something is far preferable to actually knowing something. I can relate - it's much easier to bloviate about the scant, anecdotal phenomena you have witnessed rather than try to aggregate information into something resembling accuracy.
That would be kind of hard, although in this case the ranking system is readily available and its methodology is totally transparent. But most people would rather get red in the face defending the puny territory of the self, snarling like a couple of juvenile jackals over a piece of carrion nobody really wants, because it's not important to be right as long as the other guy is wrong.
La Huella
sory you are right. I have here in Colombia better healthcare than in Germany. I had a problem with my skin. In Germany in 20 years nobody could solve it. In Colombia after 3 vistis the problem was solved. The problem is, that a lot of people here are writing that never had any experiance with the healthcare system in Colombia but they know it all.
Huella, I have intricate knowledge of both systems as I relate with the people that operate them in both places. I've seen people bleeding for hours waiting for attention in hospital departamental in Cali and I'm witness to the physicians there admitting there is little they can do for people that come in because of lack of resources. Wait times at departamental are much longer than a hospital in Alberta. Your assumption remains unfounded.
I've dealt with refugees from Colombia in Calgary, these people ran away from the country fearing for their lives. Many of them poor iliterate campesinos. Besides we were speaking of violence in Colombia, to which you say you have experienced but I suggest your incident was not part of the conflict in Colombia. Your incident is because there are few jobs and people need to survive one way or another even if it means devaluing life.
Also, perhaps you need to broaden the types of people you talk to beyond the artsy (non-materialist) crowd in south bogota as I suggest they are a minority.
As far as SENA, we recently had 8 guys from SENA come to Calgary to compete in the World Skills competition (look it up). I felt sorry for the kids because their SENA preparation was nowhere close to what an institution like SAIT (or similar ones around the world) does for an individual. Look at how Colombia did at the competition.
LH... GDP is one of the main functions of the HDI! It is a direct measure of the wealth of the nation. And Canada has a much more even wealth distribution than Colombia.
MIR, after christmas and before new years usually gets started the 25th with a cabalgata. I'm not sure if they are doing it this year, last year it seemed like a success. btw, turns out my final is in class so technically I can get out of the cold as soon as the semester is over, my only concern now is of friends coming in from out of town and if the gf is going to Colombia... she's never been to latin america though she has been to south africa (a year too early as far as I'm concerned)
I rarely visit PBH nowadays but when I do so it is in the hope of finding debating material of the quality supplied in this thread by Gatogris, Romy & Jimbo. That you have differing opinions just adds to my interest....whilst you can avoid it becoming too personal.
On the subject, I quickly examined the report when it came out, identified it excluded many factors that equate to quality of life according to my appreciation, but was transparent as to what factors were evaluated (or excluded) in their evaluation, and then arrived at some ratings that surprised me. In particular I was surprised to find Venezuela rated higher than Colombia and was advancing (until 2007) at a faster rate. This shocked me as I have lived in both countries and the result was in pure contradiction with what I have experienced.
So how much confidence can we give to the statistics volunteered for use in this report?
Thus forget if the report really covers the factors that equate to quality of life (or if some have been forgotten or exclude) ....the foremost requirement is if one can rely on the statistics used. Would anyone here really believe statistics from Venezuela relating to such matters as life expectancy and educational opportunities are more reliable than those submitted by Colombia. I go by reports from people inside Venezuela which suggest their submissions are "massaged" for external consumption. But who can vouch for the veracity off any of the claims?
In this context, I particularly appreciated Gatogris's post suggesting this report has little value other than of the "self congratulory" nature.
romy, there is NO WAYYYYY wait times are as bad here as they are in Canada.... just absolutely no way.....
I'll tell you what.. you're in Calgary... I TRIPLE DARE you to go to Brockett.... if you think you can handle it... I think it's only 2 hours away... if you can even find someone crazy or stupid enough to take you... THEN after you have been there we'll see if you have such a big mouth about what a paradise Canada is. Try talking to just about any indigenous person in Canada about what a great country it is for that matter. That way you'll also get an excellent opportunity to try out our glorious healthcare system in all its profundity :)
if you havne't booked your ticket Romy, do it soon! Prices are going up and up; and maximize your time down there. I'm going down for a couple of weeks, my exams sorta fuck me over, I don't know if I'll make it to Cali, but I'd like to. I'm definitely gonna try and catch a match or two. I'll let you know if I go down that way, and let me know if you come up north of Cali.
And if you're in Bogota, go see LH play live, then you guys can have a REAL debate ;)
Huella, it's bad in some public hospitals in Colombia, very often basic medications are not available, it makes for good physician training though as they need to become very skilled
btw, I never said Canada is a paradise. I enjoy my life here and I'm thankful to the country. But I also enjoy life in Colombia and am very thankful to Colombia.
I still carnt see why America is 13th on the list I meen thats pretty low yea? fuck mate they got Disneyland over there that shuld rate for sumthink yea?
Bev, I'd bet it has a lot to do w/ inflation, the dollar's precipitous decline, and our lack of health care as that relates to adult life expectancy. But haha yeah, dammit, Disneyland should count for somethin. :)
Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. ---- Thomas Jefferson
