Colombia: Poor But Happy

kernow62 says on Mar 9, 2005, 05:34:

Great post thanks.

You want to know something equally interesting, it rubs off on foreigners who visit or move to Colombia. My wife who no longer lives in Colombia brought this happiness intact when she moved, she is one of the happiest persons I have ever met, exceeded only by her mother.

Of course with a husband / son-in-law like me, it is quite understandable.

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platano says on Mar 9, 2005, 08:13:

Happiness is, happiness is... in Colombia "Happiness studies" is an established field of studies utilizing social science methodology. The Journal of Happiness Studies is a peer reviewed scientific journal devoted to subjective well-being. It covers both cognitive evaluations of life (like life-satisfaction), and affective enjoyment of life (such as mood level). Next to contributions on appraisal of life-as-a-whole, the journal
accepts contributions on life domains (such as job-satisfaction) and
life-aspects (such as perceived meaning of life).

The findings are scientific... and Colombia is a world leader! I would even say Colombia is the envy of the world!

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on Mar 9, 2005, 08:52:

They remind me of Oklahomans - another group of people who may not have anything to be happy about but who are always cheerful. My wife is a classic example. Father killed when she was a teenager. Husband died leaving her with three young children. In spite of these life experiences she is the happiest person I know and a true delight in every way. She seems to have a Zen-like ability to live in the moment.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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dwmte says on Mar 9, 2005, 10:08:

the last time in colombia... living in llano grande, '97 through 2000, it was the rock bottom for colombia's economic situation. many of my friends were losing their property to forclosure and countless businesses were closed for lack of income. it was the fricken pits!! me and my animals lived one stint, about 2 months, on nothing but potatoes. grown by one of my neighbors. they were suffering the same diet. it was really bad.

public workers in rio negro had not been paid in months and 'belt tightning' was long past effective.

anyway, over and above the hardships, we, me and the local colombians all managed a happiness that was uncanny. not akin to the hardships that were weighing on everyone. it's the truth. colombians can make it on nothing, and produce something....happiness. it's catchey.

dw

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elmodefoque says on Mar 9, 2005, 10:18:

most colombians want to fight after they have a couple drinks, but not me!
i'm happiest when i'm drunk, i'm what you call a poor but happy colombian drunk!

ASK NOT WHAT THE PUSSY CAN DO FOR YOU, BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR THAT PUSSY!!!!!!!!!! CAT LOVER

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dwmte says on Mar 9, 2005, 10:35:

elmo, i never had much trouble with the fighting type drunks. i just told them they were the winners before the fists even flew and that way we could get on with the drinking.

a fist ain't much fun, but another guaro is.

cheers...

dw

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ARMacleod says on Mar 9, 2005, 11:02:

Why Poor but/and/also happy? Sorry its a long one, you can switch over now if you like.

It would be easy to psychoanalyse the reasons why the good folk of Colombia as a whole appear to be happy. What if a survey was completed taking in the three classes of people commonly commonly ascribed to this at best, questionable accolade..

The upper classes: Landed gentry, nouveau rich, the haves as opposed to the have nots or whatever you wish to call them. Are they happy? Personally I think that the best that you could say is that they are very pleased that they are not poor.

That is why they will never be really happy. They are quite aware that many things can bring them down to earth rather quickly and the one greatest fear is that they could end up as poor as those people whom they usually disassociate themselves with, god forbid, to them a fate worse than death.

The middle or working classes: they are making their way up the ladder because they look up and see those at the top whom they despise, simply envy. They wish to be there, they have no time to be happy in their desperate struggle to get there. They are mean without question and will continue to be so, becoming even miserly by the time they are rich enough to say "I am there" Their greatest fear is the thought that they could end up as poor as they once were. And they despise those who are not as clever as they are for being almost there.

The lower classes: You can split those into three sub divisions

(i) The ones who have no great aspirations to rise any or much higher in the social scale for social reason, educational, psychological reasons or whatever, some are just plain lazy and others are quite happy where they are now, thank you very much

(ii) The ones who are happy , but only because they acknowledge to themselves that things cannot get much worse. They then reason that in that case things can only get better.

(iii) Then there are the people who are happy, this is because they are the idealists who have yet to become disillusioned. They will become affiliated to questionable insurgents or whatever and will fight for the cause. They will be impatient and turn to crime outside the organised resistance, they are happy but questionably so.

These people are in literally every country in the world. The difference is: In some all countries there are proportionately different numbers of people grouped into the three basic classes.

"Poor but happy" versus "Happy because they are poor" versus "Poor and happy" versus "happy because they are not as poor as others are poor" versus "Almost happy because they are not rich, but are not poor either, etc, etc

gradu diverso via una. Pax vobiscum

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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elmodefoque says on Mar 9, 2005, 11:12:

James, I’m very much a lower class (I), thank you very much. I don't have a pretentious, ambitious bone in my lazy body.

ASK NOT WHAT THE PUSSY CAN DO FOR YOU, BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR THAT PUSSY!!!!!!!!!! CAT LOVER

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 9, 2005, 11:23:

I read all of it, james and there's a couple of things I disagree with (slightly). The upper class is basically happy for having money and leisure, but in a tight spot being critized a lot and envied by almost all. The middle class is unhappy because it's not really making it work, not getting upwards only slipping a bit every day. Yet, they feel they have the obligation to live like "gente decente", that is how they think of upper class. (Typical example would have been my in-laws: not enough money to be members of the country club but not poor enough to take a dip in the river, thus they stayed home watching tv all the time.) The lower middle class is probably the happiest of all social classes in Colombia: little ambitions, no pretensions, just enough to get by and enjoying themselves basking in the warmth of their humanity.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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ARMacleod says on Mar 9, 2005, 11:57:

Desideria y Sr elmo Desi:
Yes, I of course agree with everything you say, I took my thoughts on the subject from my own particular analysis and experiences of people in general from many countries. I was of course generalising as it would fill a tome if one was to be more specific.

Elmo. My analysis of you would be as follows. My previous statement regarding ‘scholar and a gentleman' still stands. (If you can remember through the haze) Additionally, being an absurdly modest person myself I reiterate that your writing style and command of literary diction, grammar, composition, eloquence, and unbounded savoir-faire when you feel like it, is undoubtably natural and you cannot disguise from me. You are indeed a man of words most refined and articulate. A true ‘upper crust, you seek to lower your status to endear yourself to we common people whilst remaining aloof yet approachable to we poor earth bound mortals.

Ich dien!

pax vobiscum

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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elmodefoque says on Mar 9, 2005, 12:15:

James, thank you for your very kind comments and may I share them with my ex –girlfriend? She just called me a stupid, drunken buffoon.

ASK NOT WHAT THE PUSSY CAN DO FOR YOU, BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR THAT PUSSY!!!!!!!!!! CAT LOVER

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ARMacleod says on Mar 9, 2005, 12:26:

Sr Elmo, esquire Be my esteemed guest sir, surely no one could gainsay you with impunity.

verbum sat sapienti

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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platano says on Mar 9, 2005, 12:36:

The author defends himself "high fluff factor"? From browsing the article titles I would not agree.

"established field" Happiness studies are based on psychology which goes back to 1887, and/or philosophy which goes wwwaaaayyyy back.

Questions have been raised on PBH about Colombia and if happiness is related to material comfort and/or loving relationships. Questions have been raised about whether happy Colombians "choose wilfully to ignore reality and instead to live in fantasy worlds where they are happy" and the specific article you mentioned deals with that question.

Here is the author's abstract:

"This article contributes to our understanding of popular thinking about happiness by exploring the work of David E Kelley, the creator of the television program Ally McBeal and an important philosopher of happiness. Kelley’s major points are as follows. He is more ambivalent than is generally the case in popular philosophy about many of the traditional sources of happiness. In regard to the maxim that money can’t buy happiness he gives space to characters who assert that there is a relationship between material comfort and happiness, as well as to those that claim the opposite position. He is similarly ambivalent about the relationship between loving relationships and happiness; and friendships and happiness. In relation to these points Kelley is surprisingly principled in citing the sources that he draws upon in his thinking (through intertextual references to genres and texts that have explored these points before him). His most original and interesting contributions to popular discussions of the nature of happiness are twofold. The first is his suggestion that there is a lot to be said for false consciousness. He presents situations where characters choose wilfully to ignore reality and instead to live in fantasy worlds where they are happy. Rather than condemning such behaviour, Kelley presents it as understandable, attractive and perhaps even heroic. The second is his proposal that happiness should be seen as an effect of bodily performance rather than an expression of the authentic inner self -- if one forces oneself to smile, happiness may follow. Ultimately Ally McBeal presents a multifaceted popular account of the nature of happiness, where the various positions explored cannot all be reconciled; and where ironic ambivalence is the key tone." [ABSTRACT FROM AUTHOR]

plátano

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Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 9, 2005, 13:03:

My two cents You know, I love Colombia and I'm the last to say the money buys happiness, but I find it hard to understand how the authors of this study contacted Colombia's 2 million displaced, the victims of landmines, people living under threat of murder, and, oh yeah, the thousand people being held by the FARC and their friends an family.

If you want to quantify the "average" level of happiness in a society you have to somehow account for those who are truly suffering. I don't think these kind of studies and articles fairly account for all that pathos.

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platano says on Mar 9, 2005, 13:20:

Mr. Hollywood,
So much poverty, so much violence,

yet with a 2-litro bottle of Coca Cola and a bag of chips, we dance all night...

Doesn't make any sense at all, does it?

plátano

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dwmte says on Mar 9, 2005, 13:29:

doesn't make any sense? brother, you gotta be kidding. when none of us had any food and fewer had any money...some how in all that vacuum, we'ld get together enough money for a media of guaro, and a party was guaranteed. is that living in a fantasy. i think not.

matter of fact, i think it's an ability to shed the pain in the ass realities of life and exchange them for a completely different attitude. a good attitude. what ever it is, it can't be all bad, it got us all here. and here we all are...so, lets party.

dw

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ARMacleod says on Mar 9, 2005, 13:31:

platano And you were happy. Si?

If you had millions in the bank you would not be happier.

You would be worrying about the bank interest rate?

You had you coke and chips you were happy. Si

If you had caviare and champagne you would be boracho by 10 and in a stupor.

Pax vobiscum

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 9, 2005, 13:55:

Happiness will never come to those who fail to appreciate what they already have. ;-)

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poco says on Mar 9, 2005, 21:08:

Slice, Dice, Catagorize The Oklahoma comment was interesting. Town life in the mid central states 40 years ago is similar to rural Colombia today. As a rule people were Happy. Yep,, Before Walmart. Now,, many folks are mortgaged credit card consumers (economic slaves?). Many find a way out of this slavery and others live their life in the worst kind of poverty,, miserable, in debt, mad and unhappy.

Bogotá, from talk on this forum seems OK. New York City is OK. Think what New York city would be like if the government lost control of the ENTIRE western half of the United States to terrorists and one plus million families moved into New York City to avoid starvation and/or death. NEW YORK City would NOT be populated by very many HAPPY PEOPLE.

(edited for content, all rights reserved)

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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juanalejo says on Mar 10, 2005, 05:13:

Studies and Commentators There can be as many studies about happiness, or as many commentators on the results, but the truth is that if it wasn´t because all of you feel some attraction to Colombia that goes beyond your family ties you would not be here on a constant basis, praising and critizing my country. So the findings do not have to do with those who have or not been touched by the war, because to a greater of lesser degree we have all been touched, but our faith and happiness has never diminished.

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fzrdan says on Mar 10, 2005, 07:05:

poco I agree with this statement that you made "many folks are mortgaged credit card consumers". I know too many people where I live that think they have to have the new car, the new house and whatever else. They don't have one million in the bank so they have bills out their ass every month. They are not happy. They work all the time and worry what would happen if they lost their job. They can't take nice vacations to places like Colombia because they don't have the extra cash (of course they could use the credit cards).

Your last statement though, it puzzles me.

"except the entire western half of the United States is controlled by terrorists and a million or more families decided New York City was the place to go but they were NOT as happy about it."

I don't understand what you are talking about. The entire western half of the USA? What terrorists in the western half? The guys that did the Oklahoma city bombing? Who else? Last time I checked, NYC was the target of terrorists on two seperate occasions. If a person was trying to escape from terrorists, they sure as hell wouldn't move to NYC. That is ridiculous.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 10, 2005, 07:26:

One more thing about happiness Like a said above, I don't think money buys happiness. I've seen hundreds of examples of people with shitloads of money who were MISERABLE.

However, having been broke and struggling (though not what would be fairly called "poor") at various points in my life, I can also say with some conviction that there's no glamour in that, either.

To me, happiness is largely internal. But to be able to cultivate that internal happiness takes a certain amount of psychological space, space that's hard to find when you're scrounging for your next meal or running from AUC or FARC assassains.

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stevens says on Mar 10, 2005, 09:57:

so,um, er, Does your wife have a sister?

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stevens says on Mar 10, 2005, 09:57:

oops, that was for you, Utopia Cowboy.

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stevens says on Mar 10, 2005, 10:17:

Gandhi died owning only five possesions, things including his eating utensils and the robe on his back. He had deep joy, but witnesses also reported a profound sadness in his eyes. If I could have what he had I'd gladly gie up all my possessions, but we all now it's not that easy. It's an inner resource, a belief, the courage to act on one's convictions, or simply the knowledge that attitude determines attitude. Whatever it is, I kow that I only experience joy after sadness.

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utopiacowboy says on Mar 10, 2005, 12:42:

She has three sisters but only one of them is still unmarried.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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stevens says on Mar 12, 2005, 12:04:

I'll take her.

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