Colombia drug lord 'funded Uribe'

tasco66 says on Apr 25, 2009, 06:39:

This drug dealer was extradited to the US by Uribe in 2007.

Desi says “Why would he lie?” Desi you are only fooling yourself

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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tasco66 says on Apr 25, 2009, 06:42:

Uribe would never take money from drug dealers like Presidents of other nations:

"Bill Clinton and Al Gore met with known criminals who either gave large amounts of money to the Democrats or were brought in by those giving huge sums of money to the Democrats. These people included convicted drug dealer Jorge Cabrera; a Chinese arms dealer named Wang Jun; and Grigory Lutchansky, whose company, Nordex, was on Clinton's CIA watch list and who was denied entry into Canada because he failed a background check."

http://www.clintonmemoriallibrary.com/clintcrimefamily.html

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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Byron_Kostner says on Apr 25, 2009, 06:54:

“During [Uribe’s] term as governor of the province of Antioquia the AUC was born, flourished and spread across the country, leading to the deaths of more than 100,000 Colombians.

Currently there are 77 congressmen under investigation for links to the AUC, nine of whom have been condemned.

Almost all are supporters of President Uribe.”

Alvaro Uribe not only allowed for the AUC to kill 100.000’s of innocent men, woman, and CHILDREN, but after the AUC financed his presidential campaign “Don Uribe” sought to have their crimes wiped out by promoting the “peace and disarmament” program, simply washing away all the brutal and violent crimes his partners committed against humanity, an insult to all the victim’s families, include all those who paid with their lives.

The only good politicians in Colombia are probably dead by now, at the hands of Uribe’s illegal paramilitary groups.

Question: How is it possible that any person or opposition group in Colombia which looks to truly change the landscape of Colombian politics struggles to survive, (by struggle, I mean to say assasinated and brutally slaughtered) yet Alvaro has managed not only to survive but to thrive in the brutal and violent world that is politics in Colombia?

Answer: You make a deal with the devil. It’s simple as that.

tasco, you answered your own question, and let's not forget the Kennedy's did it with much less success,

Actions speak louder than words, but the self-righteous crusaders want to live by their own rules.

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Loggi says on Apr 25, 2009, 06:55:

Why would he lie?

Criminals don't lie? Wow

Just another example.

David Murcia refused to answer questions before Congress Thursday. Murcia's lawyer said the DMG director reserved the right to remain silent because his responses could affect the outcome of criminal proceedings he is currently involved in.

Murcia, currently on trial for money laundering and illicit enrichment, refused to answer questions put to him by legislators.
The Senate had agreed Tuesday to question Murcia about his alleged support for the re-election referendum after the DMG
Director said he would be willing to testify before congress.

http://colombiareports.com/colombia-news/news/3724-murcia-tight-lipped...

Live for the moments you can't put into words

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Byron_Kostner says on Apr 25, 2009, 06:59:

You're going to compare David Murcia with Don Berna, please get a grip.

Actions speak louder than words, but the self-righteous crusaders want to live by their own rules.

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durito2 says on Apr 25, 2009, 06:59:

It's pretty obvious the AUC supported Uribe.

But, really who cares? He surely wasn't thanking them by shipping them all off to jail in the USA. Politicians don't get to choose their supporters/voters.

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tasco66 says on Apr 25, 2009, 07:01:

Byron_Kostner don’t you ever get tired of spewing the same old tired Polo & Chavista propaganda….I bet you don’t even believe what you write…

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 25, 2009, 07:08:

Byron_Kostner says on Apr 25, 2009, 07:36:

tasco,
Sorry, but Chavez has absolutely NOTHING to do with the topic at hand.

What do you deny about my "propaganda" below?

“During [Uribe’s] term as governor of the province of Antioquia the AUC was born, flourished and spread across the country, leading to the deaths of more than 100,000 Colombians.

Currently there are 77 congressmen under investigation for links to the AUC, nine of whom have been condemned.

Almost all are supporters of President Uribe.”

Alvaro Uribe not only allowed for the AUC to kill 100.000’s of innocent men, woman, and CHILDREN, but after the AUC financed his presidential campaign “Don Uribe” sought to have their crimes wiped out by promoting the “peace and disarmament” program, simply washing away all the brutal and violent crimes his partners committed against humanity, an insult to all the victim’s families, include all those who paid with their lives.

The only good politicians in Colombia are probably dead by now, at the hands of Uribe’s illegal paramilitary groups.

Question: How is it possible that any person or opposition group in Colombia which looks to truly change the landscape of Colombian politics struggles to survive, (by struggle, I mean to say assasinated and brutally slaughtered) yet Alvaro has managed not only to survive but to thrive in the brutal and violent world that is politics in Colombia?

Answer: You make a deal with the devil. It’s simple as that.

Actions speak louder than words, but the self-righteous crusaders want to live by their own rules.

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Byron_Kostner says on Apr 25, 2009, 07:38:

"And how does funding (any funding) imply that the elections are ultimately rigged?"

For the answer to your question, you would have to go back and ask your second grade teacher to explain it to you again.

Actions speak louder than words, but the self-righteous crusaders want to live by their own rules.

1 funny, 0 helpful.

Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 25, 2009, 08:19:

tasco66 says on Apr 25, 2009, 08:28:

And what have Byron_Kostner delusions go to do with the topic at hand?

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 25, 2009, 08:35:

Indeed... To say that there is no democracy in Colombia and that Uribe has no legitimacy is simply rubbish.

It's not about agreeing with Uribe's policies...

There is a nice article there : http://www.america.gov/st/democracyhr-english/2008/April/2008042312311... (Spanish translation available there too)

Better to have tried and failed than having regrets all your life about what you MIGHT have missed

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tasco66 says on Apr 25, 2009, 08:36:

If some convicted drug dealer would tell Desi & Byron_Kostner that pigs fly, they would believe him….

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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Byron_Kostner says on Apr 25, 2009, 08:40:

tasco,
Now you're beginning to sound like my eight year old niece, all you little girls sound alike.

Actions speak louder than words, but the self-righteous crusaders want to live by their own rules.

1 funny, 0 helpful.

Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 25, 2009, 08:42:

tasco66 says on Apr 25, 2009, 08:45:

About campaign contributions:

Big Source of Clinton’s Cash Is an Unlikely Address
Family’s Donations Closely Track Those Of Top Fund-Raiser

By BRODY MULLINS
August 28, 2007; Page A3

DALY CITY, Calif. — One of the biggest sources of political donations to Hillary Rodham Clinton is a tiny, lime-green bungalow that lies under the flight path from San Francisco International Airport.

Six members of the Paw family, each listing the house at 41 Shelbourne Ave. as their residence, have donated a combined $45,000 to the Democratic senator from New York since 2005, for her presidential campaign, her Senate re-election last year and her political action committee. In all, the six Paws have donated a total of $200,000 to Democratic candidates since 2005, election records show…

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/wsj-uncovers-fishy-45k-donations-to...

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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tasco66 says on Apr 25, 2009, 08:50:

"tasco,
Now you're beginning to sound like my eight year old niece, all you little girls sound alike."

Byron_Kostner it comes at no surprise to me that your eight year old niece is much smarter and knowledgeable than you…

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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tasco66 says on Apr 25, 2009, 09:02:

And Desi what to you call a democracy where a seat in the country’s parliament is put up for sale?

“The public scandal and turmoil began with arrests of Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich, a Democrat, and his Chief of Staff John Harris at 6:15 a.m. on December 9, 2008, at their homes by deputies of the United States Marshals Service on behalf of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). Blagojevich and Harris were each charged with one count of conspiracy to commit mail and wire fraud and one count of soliciting bribes. The case involved sweeping pay to play and influence peddling allegations, including the alleged solicitation of personal benefit in exchange for an appointment to the United States Senate as a replacement for Barack Obama, who had resigned after being elected President of the United States.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Blagojevich_corruption_charges

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 25, 2009, 09:02:

Tomtom, I haven't the slightest. But supposingly if a minister gets fired from her job for buying diapers for her baby with a wrong credit card I can only imagine how fast heads would roll if the prime minister had taken money from the Russian Maffia to finance his political campaign. Just a mere implication that it should have happened would send the whole government into a turmoil and if there was any truth found in it, new elections would have to take place.

I won't answer to tasquito's rantings because there's no posssible dialogue there, not on his terms.

Darloup, the Colombian democracy has always been compromised. There has been too much bloodshed in Colombian politics, during the Violence, when you you got your head chopped off for voting for wrong party ("there was a knock on the door, early Sunday morning, grandfather was up and answered the door. Are you a conservador or a liberal the guys asked. Grandfather said he had always been a liberal. They shot him dead on the spot..." ) After that, when things settled down a bit, there was the Frente Nacional, a travesty of democracy where the two parties took turns in leading the country. After tha, the AUC, the drug barons and the traditional corruption when the landowners transported the peones (the workers) to vote and made sure that they voted for the right party (not hard, there are several methods, from threats to bribing, keeping people ignorant and demonizing the opposition are just some of them). After the new constitution (one of the finest pieces of legislative work I've seen) the political scenario was supposed to open up for new parties, be rid of corruption (here comes Ms. Betancourt riding on her white horse), the Samper corruption scandal and finally, with Uribe we're looking ahead, with a new healthy, vital opposition party, the Polo Alternativo Democratico, a president with high marks and high hopes and ...there we are again. Parapolitica, Yidispolitica, monies here, monies there, the military faking rebel deaths to collect bonuses (the whole bonus idea for guerrilla body parts is SICK and barbaric), the referendum so that Uribe can change the Constitution to perpetuate his power and now we're there again...

Colombia is the country with the world record on state of siege. (I read this recently somewhere,)

and you DARE to call the opinions stating that the Colombian democracy is compromised RUBBISH?

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Byron_Kostner says on Apr 25, 2009, 09:07:

tasco,
We are talking about Colombia, so all your unrelated articles have nothing to do with nothing, we are talking about Colombia on a Colombian dedicated board!!!

Why some people can't seem to understand that simple fact is beyond me!!!!

Darloup,
I am not arguing anything, just stating the simple facts.

Actions speak louder than words, but the self-righteous crusaders want to live by their own rules.

2 funny, 0 helpful.

tasco66 says on Apr 25, 2009, 09:11:

There has been too much bloodshed in Colombian politics, during the Violence, when you you got your head chopped off for voting for wrong party ("there was a knock on the door, early Sunday morning, grandfather was up and answered the door. Are you a conservador or a liberal the guys asked. Grandfather said he had always been a liberal. They shot him dead on the spot..." ) bla, bla, bla…

Desi, please tell us what happened to Europeans who said they voted or supported the communist party under Mussolini, Hitler, and Franco or people who refused to be communists in the Soviet Union???

The violence that took place in Colombia in the past century is nothing compared to the violence that took place in Europe…

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 25, 2009, 09:16:

Byron_Kostner says on Apr 25, 2009, 09:25:

Darloup, "Maybe the democracy is weak, or even compromised. But, IMAO, it's still better than a dictatorship."

We agree. At least you are talking about Colombia.

Unlike Tasco, who just doesn't get it.

If you want to talk about the atrocities in Europe, do so on the Poor But Europe website. I might just be tempted to use my "ignore" option for the first time.

Actions speak louder than words, but the self-righteous crusaders want to live by their own rules.

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Gator says on Apr 25, 2009, 09:25:

Byron_Kostner -at least you have an open mind???

Talk about wandering about the fields of liberalism with a closed mind. Byron, there you go again ignoring facts! Why should facts get in the way of a perfectly formed mindset? I guess we are to assume the 7.2 million Colombians who voted for him are just knuckle dragging sociopaths, give me a break. Of course, as I am sure your reply will show, being a liberal means never admitting you just might be wrong.

"Bene, cum Latine nescias, nolo manus meas in te maculare" .

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Byron_Kostner says on Apr 25, 2009, 09:33:

Gator,

How many stupid Americans voted for Bush? How many stupid Americans supported the "Invasion of Iraq" which had absolutely NOTHING, NOTHING to do with 9/11!?!

I take it you have no problem with torturing innocent people, aside from slaughtering 100,000's of innocent people in Iraq?

Same is the case in Colombia, with Uribe's secret pack with the devil, which I agree is not specific to Colombia, the Kennedy's did it with much less success.

Actions speak louder than words, but the self-righteous crusaders want to live by their own rules.

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Byron_Kostner says on Apr 25, 2009, 09:36:

elSapo says, ""I might just be tempted to use my "ignore" option for the first time."
Yeah... I understand... everybody has a feminine side..."

HA! At least I don't need a gun to feel like a man, or safe in Colombia!

Actions speak louder than words, but the self-righteous crusaders want to live by their own rules.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 25, 2009, 09:44:

Saying that yes but....is an easy way out. Colombian democracy has certain flaws but so has the US democracy and not to talk about Europe...sorry, I don't buy that. To compare the Colombian state of democracy with, say example, Switwerland or Denmark's is like comparing apples and oranges. Fruits of a different tree.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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tasco66 says on Apr 25, 2009, 09:57:

Darloup since you seem to know about France, please remind Desi how were communists, political oponents, jews etc... treated in France under the Vichy regime…

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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tasco66 says on Apr 25, 2009, 10:01:

“To compare the Colombian state of democracy with, say example, Switwerland or Denmark's is like comparing apples and oranges. Fruits of a different tree.”

Agree, here is an example:

“Colombia was the first independent country who allowed women to vote, in 1853”

http://www.ebizguides.com/guides/main_guide.php?country=26

118 years later in 1971, Swiss women got the right to vote for the first time:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/7/newsid_273...

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 25, 2009, 10:19:

" 1853 in Vélez Santander, women were granted the right to vote. This right was abolished in 1857 and re-established in 1957? " (from Tasco's link)
Colombia adopted women's suffrage in 1954, a half century later than Finland, for example. Finland and Sweden are firmly established amongst the first countries to approve women's right to vote

(The first European country to introduce women's suffrage was the Grand Duchy of Finland. The administrative reforms following the 1905 uprising granted Finnish women the right both to vote (universal and equal suffrage) and to stand for election in 1906. The world's first female members of parliament were also in Finland, when on 1907, 19 women took up their places in the Parliament of Finland as a result of the 1907 parliamentary elections.)
(Wiki)

(Sweden
During the Swedish age of liberty (1718-1771), tax-paying female members of guilds, (most often widows), were allowed to vote, and stand for election, until 1771. Between 1726 and 1742, women took part in 30 percent of the elections. New regulations made the participation of women in the elections even more extensive in the period of 1743-58.

The vote was sometimes given through a male representative, which was a usual reason given by the opposition to female suffrage. In 1758, women were excluded from the mayor- and local elections, but continued to vote in the national elections. In 1771, this suffrage was abolished through the new constitution.

In 1862, tax-paying women of legal majority were again allowed to vote in the local elections. The right to vote in national elections was not returned to women until 1919, and was practiced again in the election of 1921, for the first time in 150 years.)

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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tasco66 says on Apr 25, 2009, 10:23:

Women vote first introduced in:

Colombia 1853
Finland 1905
Switzerland 1971

Nuff said

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 25, 2009, 10:34:

Colombia? Yes, in a a small town in Santander, for a few years. Very progressive, very short-lived.

If that's how we figure it out, the the Viking ladies were the first, they were allowed to speak at the gathering of all free men and women Allthing

." Every free man or woman had the right to speak at an Althing, and women were generally held to be the equal of men under the law. Women retained their rights to manage their own money and property after marriage and could obtain a divorce with the same ease - or difficulty - as a man. Women only became second-class citizens after the imposition of Norman Law!" http://www.regia.org/vikings.htm

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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tasco66 says on Apr 25, 2009, 10:34:

Another fact: last century when Europe had royalties and dictators as rulers, Colombia was a democracy…

One more fact: last century when most of Latin America was ruled by dicators, Colombia was a democracy…

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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tasco66 says on Apr 25, 2009, 10:38:

Desi what was very short-lived was democracy in Europe in the first half of the last century, when you Euros enjoyed butchering each others repeatedly by the millions...

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 25, 2009, 10:56:

Patadas del ahogado, taquito. We're not talking about Europe or even USA, even if the US political system is more comparable and yet there is no comparison. We're talking about democracy, the hallmarks of democracy: freedom of political expression, transparency, freedom of speech, even separation of powers and political pluralism and equality before the law. Thus, every time President Uribe has a tantrum and blames people with a different political view than himself to be FARC supporters or terrorists, he's breaching this precious principle of democracy.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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goin_south says on Apr 25, 2009, 11:01:

""Colombia drug lord 'funded Uribe' ""

I don't have the time to read and indulge myself so deeply like so many Pbh'ers do here, but.... even though it has to be obvious that the Country ''SEEMS'' better off since he's been president, THIS DOESN'T OR WOULDN'T SURPRISE ME. Why would it surprise anyone?

...and, that 'the government' whoever they are, Uribe or whoever, have much to gain by 'giving the appearance of being against the drugs'.... WHILE IN REALITY, HAVE A HAND IN IT AND QUITE OBVIOUSLY MUCH TO GAIN FROM IT.

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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tasco66 says on Apr 25, 2009, 11:03:

“There has been too much bloodshed in Colombian politics, during the Violence, when you you got your head chopped off for voting for wrong party ("there was a knock on the door, early Sunday morning, grandfather was up and answered the door. Are you a conservador or a liberal the guys asked. Grandfather said he had always been a liberal. They shot him dead on the spot..." bla, bla, bla…

Desi please remind us what happened to jews who answered the knock at their door last century in your “progressive and civilized” continent as you like to call it?

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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goin_south says on Apr 25, 2009, 11:20:

"he's breaching this precious principle of democracy."
... Yes, just like: the
"""""""""Obamadrama-MSNBC-GE Complex""""""""""...
labeling the Tea-Party attendees as Subversives in America !
(North! of course.)
jajajja...

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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manINred says on Apr 25, 2009, 11:23:

Why would we take what a scum drug-lord has to say at face value... ESPECIALLY when it has the potential to harmfully destabilize the Colombian political system at the moment, and perhaps stifle progress being made in combatting illegal groups in the country?

Now, if he can provide more evidence other than his own words, which count for nothing, then we should worry... I agree that the implications of what he said are far-reaching and very negative... and they shouldn't be ignored. But to take them at face-value is ludicrous.

And by the way, for those who misuse the word "liberal" by using it as slander against people who do not conform to a certain set of beliefs, grow up. It is very unbecoming.

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goin_south says on Apr 25, 2009, 11:45:

desi, who's handing out all the ''funnies'' here on your thread???

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

3 funny, 1 helpful.

aussiesam says on Apr 25, 2009, 12:24:

interesting, to say the least...

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Lisa Zee says on Apr 25, 2009, 12:46:

"Why would we take what a scum drug-lord has to say at face value..." I agree 100%. What is he going to say? "I love Uribe, gracias por desterrarme de Colombia"?!. What do you expect from a criminal, drug ass?.

Vive la vida y deja vivir!.

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DodgerDogs says on Apr 25, 2009, 12:49:

Alvaro Uribe = A.U.C. - Pablo Escobar was his bed buddy and he idolized Ochoa. Why does he not want the same deal for
F.A.R.C. as he gave his A.U.C: amigos ¿........... He may have made Colombia a safer place , but at what expence ¿
Ask the thousands of displaced and the starving Afro Colombians in Choco about A.U.C, Uribe.............

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.Martin Luther King:

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tasco66 says on Apr 25, 2009, 12:50:

"Why would he lie?"

I think Desi would have believed Pablo Escobar if he had told her that he was innocent...

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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DodgerDogs says on Apr 25, 2009, 12:54:

Obama on Latin American Trade: Muddled and Confused
Uribe—Latin America’s Most Disgraced President


• Honored in Washington, Uribe is scorned throughout Latin America for being Bush’s favored hemispheric figure.

However muffled the language may be, President Uribe is destined to be Latin America’s most scorned president in modern times. Condemned by voice and written denunciations throughout the hemisphere, Uribe did manage to solely win enthusiastic, if almost meaningless praise, from lame-duck President George Bush, who saw nothing wrong with Colombia applying Iraqi-style tactics on Ecuadorian territory. Even the most accommodating analyst would have to inform Uribe that he has just finished the most catastrophic week of an already catastrophic presidency and effectively the demise of his presidency and influenced on the hemisphere. There is no question that, ironically enough, Farcista Raúl Reyes has posthumously inflicted the most devastating and lasting defeat on Uribe. Metaphorically speaking, Reyes has scalped Uribe and then hung the Colombian leader’s tattered presidential sash upon a pike and walked the macabre sight through the streets of Latin America.

A Heavy Burden to Bear

At the end of the day, the price of gunning down Reyes will prove to be excessively high for Uribe. On going negotiations for the release of scores of FARC-held hostages, which has eagerly sought after by Uribe, have been unquestionably terminated, at least for the foreseeable future. Reyes was the FARC figure most identified with the hostage-release dialogue with Colombia and European intermediates. In the past, Reyes was the FARC official most engaged in talks that had taken place with high level figures abroad, working for the release of a number of FARC detainees, particularly Ingrid Betancourt, whose freedom was especially sought after by the French, due to her holding both Colombian and French citizenship. Additionally, Reyes was said to have maintained liaison with Venezuela’s efforts, which had been abruptly guillotined last November, when Hugo Chávez was sacked by Uribe as Colombia’s unofficial negotiator. By ordering the killing of Reyes, Uribe guaranteed that former Colombian presidential candidate Ingrid Betancourt will remain in guerrilla custody indefinitely.


A Man for Few Seasons
Uribe cultivates a hard-line image that brooks no flexibility when it comes to visiting affliction upon the Farcistas, which has won him considerable popularity within Colombia. But it is a popularity that is more broad than deep. As for FARC, it is not a soft and fuzzy organization at all, but it must be understood that all of their actions have an end in mind. Behind the drug trafficking and kidnappings lies a resolve to obtain the freedom of their imprisoned comrades and to guarantee their own securities. Yet here again, Uribe’s instincts were antipathetic to a rational assessment of how to peacefully resolve on internecine strife that had been going on for decades, with honor and with homage to the Colombian nations.

Now prepared to retire from office, the Bush administration already has reached the nadir of its popularity on the Hill and when it comes to its Latin American policy, no one can suggest that it was even faintly credible. In fact, Bush’s policy was a parody of a policy; in effect, with no exaggeration, it could be called an anti-policy. Uribe is unlikely to witness the U.S. Congress passing a beneficial trade measure on his behalf. In terms of the high price that Uribe is being forced to pay, the toll is there to clearly be seen.

The Colombian president does not have a compelling reputation which can make him proud. Uribe is anything but an apostle of democracy. He is armed with a grim personality that is far more Dick Cheneyesque in its import than Helen Keller. He had no problem with packing the country’s Supreme Court after unsuccessfully trying to convince its members to decide in his favor that the Constitution in fact allowed him to stand for re-election.

Nor did the U.S. make much of a fuss when, for a token guilty plea and a minimum prison sentence, AUC vigilantes are guaranteed against being extradited to the U.S., even though the extradition policy had been at the heart of Washington’s anti-drug strategy. Another sore point is Uribe’s reputation for playing fast and loose when it comes to personal matters of corruption, and his years of very murky connections to some of the country’s worst rightist extremists. He has worked tirelessly to provide these AUC extremist vigilantes (classified as “terrorists” even by the State Department) to see to it that their future isn’t bleak even now, many of the people who Uribe protected from doing jail time have gone back to a life of major drug trafficking. In a recurring scandal involving Uribe, some 35% of the legislative representatives of his conservative party have direct ideological and/or financial arrangements with these death-squads. Nor should it be forgotten that even the State Department acknowledges that the AUC was tolerated and afforded sweetheart deals by Uribe while it still was carrying out massacres of trade union leaders and hundreds of other civilians.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.Martin Luther King:

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 25, 2009, 12:56:

Stop putting words into my mouth, tasco.
I never said that I believed him, just that what are the chances he was telling the truth.

Samper was proven to have received campaign donations from the Cali cartel, it's not unheard in Colombia that the criminal organizations like the drug maffias contribute to their favorite candidates campaigns. Why couldnät the AUC that were legal at the time have contributed to their candidate's campaign?

And yes, DD, that's one of my major complaints against Mr. Uribe: not that he's a bad president, just that he's not the president for ALL Colombians.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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tasco66 says on Apr 25, 2009, 13:00:

"just that he's not the president for ALL Colombians."

That's just like saying Obama is not the president for ALL Americans

or Sarko is not the president for ALL frogs...

etc...

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

0 funny, 1 helpful.

Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 25, 2009, 13:13:

This line of reasoning is not taking us anywhere taquito. Totally different countries, totally different societies. Colombia is not USA or France. And yet, yes, I believe Obama is the president for all gringos, the way Uribe is NOT for all Colombians.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

1 funny, 0 helpful.

tasco66 says on Apr 25, 2009, 13:18:

Well I know a lot of Americans who do not consider Obama to be their President...some even say he is only the President of Wall Street:

http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=afYsmJyngAXQ&refer=hom...

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

1 funny, 1 helpful.

miamimike says on Apr 25, 2009, 13:26:

tomtom33 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 25, 2009, 11:40 (today): flag

I guess that our favorite Bush-bashers have been doing some breaching
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TT--think I fit into the group with my favorite current avatar? LOL

No hay Peor Ciego que el que no quiere Ver o Sordo que el que no quiera Oir--Soy Yo, Sarah Palin, Wasilla Alaska.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Gator says on Apr 25, 2009, 15:15:

Byron_Kostner's Reply:

"Gator,

How many stupid Americans voted for Bush? How many stupid Americans supported the "Invasion of Iraq" which had absolutely NOTHING, NOTHING to do with 9/11!?!

I take it you have no problem with torturing innocent people, aside from slaughtering 100,000's of innocent people in Iraq?

Same is the case in Colombia, with Uribe's secret pack with the devil, which I agree is not specific to Colombia, the Kennedy's did it with much less success."

Your "defense", as pitiful, as it is, apparently consists of:

1.Make an untrue statement, preferably on the subject of something about which you know nothing.
2.Change the subject.
3. Redefine your definition and hope the other person forgets the previous one. Repeat as needed.
4. Assert that since definitions are irrelevant and subjective, the other person is mean-spirited, racist, sexist, intolerant and obsessive.
5.Change the subject.
6. Never forget that an answer to a question you have asked should always be regarded as a personal attack if the answer is something you don't like.

As Ellen Glasgow once remarked: "He knows so little and knows it so fluently." Byron, I was refering to your latest discharge of plebeian verbiage; in which, you have proven, once again, that there is no such thing as unutterable nonsense. Just as the strength of a solitary brick will not save a poorly built structure, your logic does not redeem your incoherent words. In conclusion, thank you. We were all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view. You are not worth another word, else I'd call you knave.

"Bene, cum Latine nescias, nolo manus meas in te maculare" .

1 funny, 2 helpful.

Haddeman says on Apr 25, 2009, 15:20:

How can you compare democracy here with that of Europe or North America?Colombia is a work in progress and will not be completed for many generations.It is ,however going in the right direction and history will probably judge Uribe the same way as we judged say,Napoleon Bonoparte,Oliver Cromwell or maybe even Abraham Lincoln,somebody he took his failing,ungovernable state by the scruff of the neck and dragged it kicking and screaming into some semblance of law and order and as a functioning sovereign ,bona fide state.
It took Europe the best part of a thousand years to get it right,Colombia needs more time.
Uribe has many flaws but so did those other heroes who saved their countries,it is a case of cometh the time,cometh the man!

0 funny, 1 helpful.

tasco66 says on Apr 25, 2009, 16:06:

Colombia has no lesson to receive from Europeans on democracy. Colombia was already a democracy when most European states were governed by royalties and dictators…

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

1 funny, 1 helpful.

miamimike says on Apr 25, 2009, 17:26:

tomtom33 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 25, 2009, 14:14 (today): flag

I didn't understand the avatar until I read your tag line. You were in the group long before your current avatar. But I don't feel that you are breaching anything. Bash away.

I think that I mentioned before that I was guilty of bashing Nixon in my youth. Even though Nixon was hardly a candidate for Miss Congeniality, I believe that he tried in his own, perhaps twisted, way. He did not deserve my bashing, and I hope that I will not repeat that error in the future. This is the devil now: Dan Quayle was certainly fun though.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TT--you will find this hard to believe but until GW Bush, I never bashed a Republican Prez. Fact of the matter I was ONE and I voted (and was actually a registered Republican until Reagan's first term)Republican half my life, Including Voting for Nixon, Reagan(once) ect. Believe I voted for Ford also and I had no problems with HW Bush(one) though I didn't vote for him, Ross Perot got my vote in 1992. . GW Bush simply Inspires me...LOL Strange but true, I plan on voting Republican for the upcoming Florida Senate Race, if our Republican Governor Charlie Crist runs against Democratic Congressman Kendrick Meeks, who, btw, is my Miami Congressional Rep and a favorite of Nancy Pelosi.

No hay Peor Ciego que el que no quiere Ver o Sordo que el que no quiera Oir--Soy Yo, Sarah Palin, Wasilla Alaska.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

billyb says on Apr 25, 2009, 18:00:

"I never said that I believed him, just that what are the chances he was telling the truth.'

No, what you ACTUALLY said was "why would he lie", which means you believe him. Nice revisionism though.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

1 funny, 2 helpful.

miamimike says on Apr 26, 2009, 07:34:

tomtom33 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 26, 2009, 05:09 (today): flag

He certainly has inspired you, MM.
===============================

TT--More then that! I think the only one who compares to his drawing & staying power is Sarah Palin and the cartoonists have big plans for her! As the old song goes, "we have only just begun" LOL

No hay Peor Ciego que el que no quiere Ver o Sordo que el que no quiera Oir--Soy Yo, Sarah Palin, Wasilla Alaska.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Byron_Kostner says on Apr 26, 2009, 07:47:

Paramilitary commander appeals to Colombian authorities from US prison

Extradited paramilitary warlord Diego Fernando "Don Berna" Murillo appealed for a commission of Colombian congressmen to visit him in his US prison so he can continue his collaboration with Bogotá on bringing justice. Don Berna—sentenced to 31 years for drug trafficking April 22—appealed in a letter to Colombian lawmakers to visit him to "guarantee transparency, accuracy and efficiency" in his cooperation with the special Justice and Peace tribunal that seeks to clarify the crimes committed by paramilitaries before the "demobilization" of the United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia (AUC).

In a letter to opposition senator Piedad Córdoba, Don Berna writes that "the people have a right to know their history so it is not repeated. I am committed to tell the truth; the victims are entitled to know, just like all Colombians." Murillo stated at his sentencing in Manhattan federal district court that he and the AUC financially supported the campaign of Álvaro Uribe for the 2002 presidency—which was vehemently denied by Uribe's former campaign manager, Fabio Echeverri Correa.

Don Berna is the former leader of AUC's Medellín-based Cacique Nutibara Bloc as well as the rural Héroes de Granada and Héroes de Tolová blocs, and is suspected of thousands of crimes against humanity. At the sentencing, Don Berna's attorney Margaret M. Shalley called him "a patriot, and a man who has fallen victim to the violence in Colombia."

Actions speak louder than words, but the self-righteous crusaders want to live by their own rules.

2 funny, 0 helpful.

Lcacique says on Apr 26, 2009, 14:27:

Colombia has no lesson to receive from Europeans on democracy. Colombia was already a democracy when most European states were governed by royalties and dictators…

Colombia's democracy is hardly something to hold up as a shining example of the fruits of such a form of government. First, Colombia has had, at the very least, a couple of dictatorships during the rule of Reyes and Rojas Pinilla. But you have somewhat of a point, Colombia has not really had the same experience as its neighbors. Of course, one could argue that Colombia was afforded the right to go forth as a democracy because both the left and the right were very accommodating to Uncle Sam, unlike other democracies where elected leaders sometimes challenged the US. These countries had their democratic leaders forcefully removed with the help, both indirect and direct, of the US and dictators were put in their place (not that dictatorships were only the result of US involvement, some certainly came about on their own). In Colombia, however, the left and the right were happy to allow the US to pursue its interests in the nation. Second, throughout the early to mid-twentieth century, Colombia's democracy was characterized by extreme violence and often resulted in one side slaughtering the other whenever the reigns of power changed hands. Also, Colombia engaged in a joint regime known as the National Front, whereby the two parties shared power by alternating presidents every 4 years and having an equal number of representatives in all other offices. Again, not a great example of democracy. Assassinations, extrajudicial punishment, officials linked to druglords, death squads, and guerillas...again, a poor example of democracy.

There are flaws, however, in any government because people are flawed. I love Colombia, see it making improvements, and hope that it continues to do so, but I do not completely agree with the idea that it has been some pillar of democracy.

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

3 funny, 0 helpful.

dwmte7 says on Apr 26, 2009, 19:06:

somewhere along the line you folks have forgotten...both were born in tablaso...a very private, small, incestuous community off the beaten track in llano grande...are of the appx same age, born less than 300 yds apart and grew up together. they had lives where one knew well the other. that said. the proximity to pablo was a proximity to the entire drug world. and tablaso is the inner sanctum of the homes of the capo elite. remember it's a tiny close knit community. anyone who's driven out there knows where of i speak.

so although mr uribe is a good man, he's not goody two shoes. he's a very savvy, smart, street wise colombian and he's paisa. he didn't grow up dancing ballet. he grew up in a saddle, on a finca and WAY DEEP knows life in colombia. don't make him to be some dumb ass, impotent pretender from finishing school. he's not he's guapo, guapo and don't forget it. not only does he have friends/familiars in the "underworld" HE'S COLOMBIAN he knows all about it. he ain't like TOMMY, the deaf dumb and blind kid. mr uribe is colombia, in all it's various colors and characteristics. he's a man who can be counted on but not a man to be underestimated....in any fashion.

d

patriarch

0 funny, 2 helpful.

Gator says on Apr 26, 2009, 20:27:

Dwmte7, damn if I had a hat on I would tip it. Them that ain't here just don't get it-for the most part.

And of course they would never mention Obams involvment with Tony Rezko. Oops!

"Bene, cum Latine nescias, nolo manus meas in te maculare" .

1 funny, 0 helpful.

Sam Salmon says on Apr 26, 2009, 23:01:

Well said Douglas.

' a la orden!'

0 funny, 0 helpful.

dwmte7 says on Apr 27, 2009, 03:18:

i'd do an encore, if i knew what it meant.................

patriarch

0 funny, 0 helpful.

tasco66 says on Apr 27, 2009, 07:11:

“Second, throughout the early to mid-twentieth century, Colombia's democracy was characterized by extreme violence and often resulted in one side slaughtering the other…”

How would you qualify Euro violence last century? Whatever violence there was in Colombia was nothing compared to what Euros did…hint WWI, WWII, Holocaust, Empire wars and repressions etc….

How many counties did Colombia invade last century?

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

1 funny, 1 helpful.

billyb says on Apr 27, 2009, 08:27:

And Colombia also didn't carry on business as usual with Hitler during WWII like those "renowned" democracies like Sweden and Switzerland did, all whilst their neighbors burned, yes, we have a lot to learn from them (eyes rolling).

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

1 funny, 1 helpful.

tasco66 says on Apr 27, 2009, 11:37:

Yep, Colombia has no lesson to receive from some pro-nazi supporters...


"Although Sweden had a strict policy of "NEUTRALITY" she wasn't. She Cooperated with Germany in several different ways.

1. Sweden refused England and France to transport troops through Sweden to help Finland, but allowed Hitler to transport troops through Sweden to attack Norway.

2. Germany was dependent on Sweden for her iron ore, which was being used to make guns etc.

3. Despite their agreement with the Allies, Sweden export ball bearing steal and ball bearing machines to the Germans.

"Sweden -- One of Nazi Germany's largest trading partners. Swedish bankers apparently took billions of dollars in gold from the Nazis w/o inquiring about its origins. Supplied critically needed iron ore and ball bearings. Swedish jewelry dealers bought diamonds looted by Nazis in Belgium."

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_was_it_advantageous_to_Hitler_for_Sweden...

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

1 funny, 1 helpful.

Lcacique says on Apr 27, 2009, 12:59:

How could Colombia invade other countries in the last century? It has been too busy at war with itself.

Colombia did help the Allies (providing chocolate, petroleum, planes and ending the relationship with Germany via SCADTA by forming Avianca); however, at the same time, Laureano Gómez (a falangist, who became a prominent figure during this period within the Conservative Party) and other Conservatives openly supported the axis powers. This all changed when he became President and badly needed US assistance and many scholars have argued that this influenced him to send troops to Korea so as to counter the negative image that was a result of his sympathies during WWII. And Colombia did carry on business as usual with the US during the Cold War all whilst its neighbors and its own citizens were tortured, assassinated, massacred and disappeared with direct and indirect support of Uncle Sam.

I can careless where Colombia learns its lessons, I simply hope that it learns them someday. I can careless about ranking it as a democracy. My point is that it is not a good example or model. If either of you want to place it on a pedestal, by all means, go for it.

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

4 funny, 0 helpful.

billyb says on Apr 27, 2009, 13:03:

"And Colombia did carry on business as usual with the US during the Cold War all"

So you are comparing the US with Nazi Germany now? Nice, that's stretch even for you LC, is it not? Would you have prefered that Colombia not have traded with the US and have traded with the benign Soviet empire instead?

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

1 funny, 3 helpful.

Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 27, 2009, 13:12:

"Sweden did not refuse England and France to transport troops through her territory to help Finland. Sweden most likely would have refused such a permission, had the question been asked. But the plan, initiated by Winston Churchill, was to land in northern Norway, advance into Sweden and destroy the mines producing iron ore (which was of vital interest to Germany) and continue into Finland and engage the Soviets. Luckily, this never came to be since the Germans beat the allies to it in May 9th 1940. And the expedition force turned into a rescue party which instead engaged the Germans in Norway. Had the original plan succeeded, there's no telling what implications it would have had on the outcome of the war.

Neither did Sweden allow free passage to German troops attacking Norway, although this is a common misconception. Germany did request such passage, which was denied. In a later stage of the war (late 1941), passage of German troops through Sweden was allowed. These were troops destined for the Finnish/Soviet front-line (and the decision was probably, at least in part, the result of the misguided ambition to help Finland in this manner). However questionable in regard to neutral standards, quite a different thing. "

From the same link provided by tasco. One and a half inch down the page. Tasco is posting misinformation with the sole purpose to deceive the reader by posting selected-out-of-the context pieces of an article, in this case wiki answers. He posted the WRONG aasumptions or accusations as the the truth and omitted the CORRECT answers just a little lower on the same page. No debattor of ANY credibility does that

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

3 funny, 0 helpful.

tasco66 says on Apr 27, 2009, 13:35:

How can I be accused of misinformation by quoting a text with a link?

I posted the correct answer, the other comment is an opinion from some denier of Swedish-Nazi collaboration that is not worthy of being posted on this board by any debator of credibility…

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

1 funny, 1 helpful.

Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 27, 2009, 13:41:

tasco66 says on Apr 27, 2009, 13:43:

‘Why would he lie?
What is there for him for telling the truth?

This is partially an answer to Darloup's challenging me to back up my statement about Colombia's democracy standing on feet of clay.”

No debater of any credibility would claim that Colombia's democracy is standing on feet of clay because of some convicted drug dealer that Uribe extradited to the USA says he donated money to the Uribe campaign….

The source is totally unreliable and the fact that the drug dealer is now rotting in a cell in the USA (which is the worst punishment any Colombian drug dealer can receive), is proof that Desi’s claim is totally bogus…

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

1 funny, 0 helpful.

Byron_Kostner says on Apr 27, 2009, 14:30:

dwmte7, "somewhere along the line you folks have forgotten...both were born in tablaso...a very private, small, incestuous community off the beaten track in llano grande...are of the appx same age, born less than 300 yds apart and grew up together. they had lives where one knew well the other. that said. the proximity to pablo was a proximity to the entire drug world. and tablaso is the inner sanctum of the homes of the capo elite. remember it's a tiny close knit community. anyone who's driven out there knows where of i speak.

so although mr uribe is a good man, he's not goody two shoes. he's a very savvy, smart, street wise colombian and he's paisa. he didn't grow up dancing ballet. he grew up in a saddle, on a finca and WAY DEEP knows life in colombia. don't make him to be some dumb ass, impotent pretender from finishing school. he's not he's guapo, guapo and don't forget it. not only does he have friends/familiars in the "underworld" HE'S COLOMBIAN he knows all about it. he ain't like TOMMY, the deaf dumb and blind kid. mr uribe is colombia, in all it's various colors and characteristics. he's a man who can be counted on but not a man to be underestimated....in any fashion."

Very well put, it is what it is, and maybe, one day down the line things will change, but as long as you have the infuence of cocaine money in the country, nothing will change, business as usual.

Actions speak louder than words, but the self-righteous crusaders want to live by their own rules.

1 funny, 0 helpful.

Lcacique says on Apr 27, 2009, 15:12:

There are obvious differences between Nazi Germany and the US, billyb. That is clear. I applaud you, however, for your effort to try to define my position. The fact that there are differences between the two does not change the reality that the US has blood stained hands due to its efforts in Latin America. Regardless of its intentions (which are/were EXTREMELY debatable), it is not a pretty picture. I see no point in downplaying it or ignoring it simply because Hitler's atrocities are considered more horrific. Who is saying that Colombia should not have traded with the US? Nobody. And I certainly did not imply that trading with the Soviets would have been a better option.

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

3 funny, 0 helpful.

Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 27, 2009, 15:14:

billyb says on Apr 27, 2009, 15:22:

"Who is saying that Colombia should not have traded with the US?"

LC, since you brought it up as a counter point to my pointing out that those two euro countries traded with Hitler, the natural assumption would be that Colombia should not trade with the US, as Sweden and Switzerland should not have traded with the Nazis. If that was not the point you were trying to make, why bring it up at all? Or was there supposed to be another point?

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

1 funny, 0 helpful.

dwmte7 says on Apr 27, 2009, 16:50:

what a thread.....all the meyhem outta the stars flyin around here. cocalin, escobar, bernal, uribe, nazis, england usa.

after reading a link some one put up i realized that it's just the 'green energy' that colombia runs on . it's employed at the very top and used in the jungles. it keeps the wheels turning. it feeds a lot of families, politicians, development, investment, construction, payroll and everything else. until they refine it's actual merchandising from top to bottom. colombia and the world are just gonna have to deal with it as it is. everyone can draw upon their better/higher motives and think of ways to make it better, more profitable and less violent and complicated.

d

patriarch

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Lcacique says on Apr 27, 2009, 17:40:

Colombia has to do business with the US. The US is its biggest market. In the past, had it chosen not to, it would have been disastrous just as it was for the countries in the region that decided to pursue other economic avenues. So, it makes sense on a couple levels. Still, it doesn't change the fact that it was doing business with a country that was highly involved in all of the things that I mentioned above. By the way, you forgot to mention that the US did business with Nazi Germany and it continues to do business with less than desirable countries.

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

3 funny, 0 helpful.

billyb says on Apr 28, 2009, 06:20:

"By the way, you forgot to mention that the US did business with Nazi Germany"

During the war, like the two countries I mentioned? Was the US accepting for deposit the gold removed from the teeth of concentration camp victims like Switzerland? Do you really want to continue with these comparisons?

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

1 funny, 1 helpful.

Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 28, 2009, 09:22:

dwmte7 says on Apr 28, 2009, 09:40:

ya'll know, we can end all this insult, arguing and bickering once and for all. just gather up your sticks and stones, get out your guns--lock,load--beat the fuck outta each other and those that still squak and kick, shoot em. then there might be some peace around here.

for myself, i'd rather we just disagree politely and courteously...it's not a constitutional right that we have to agree...on the contrary. but we don't have to 'bunch up our panties' as they say, over all this.

once again, we ain't the enemy. better a smoke, a glass of wine, coffee, fruit juice what ever and a good meal with those you share the trenches with than a knife in the back. during conflict, i wanna be looking forward, not covering my back and ass. and you?

patriarch

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 28, 2009, 09:55:

Byron_Kostner says on Apr 28, 2009, 11:44:

Colombia: Paramilitary Chief Says He Helped Finance Uribe’s Campaign
Written by Constanza Vieira - Tuesday, 28 April 2009

(IPS) - Former Colombian paramilitary chief and drug lord Diego Murillo, alias "Don Berna", testified in a U.S. court that he helped finance President Álvaro Uribe’s first election campaign, in 2002.

The president’s campaign chief denied the allegation.

"Don Berna" was sentenced Wednesday to 31 years in prison and fined four million dollars for conspiring to smuggle cocaine into the United States.

Murillo, 48, was extradited in a surprise move by Uribe on May 13, 2008, along with 13 other heads of the far-right paramilitary United Self-Defence Forces of Colombia (AUC), which formally disbanded in 2007 after engaging in demobilisation negotiations with the government from 2003 to 2006.

They were wanted by the U.S. justice system on drug trafficking charges.

During the trial in a New York courtroom, one of Murillo’s lawyers, Margaret Shalley, read out a statement depicting her client as a victim of Communist violence, a patriot who was left disabled – he has a prosthetic leg - and nevertheless continued generating money to help his people.

The lawyer asked federal U.S. District Judge Richard Berman to take into account, before sentencing her client, that he and the AUC backed Uribe’s presidential campaign in 2002, to which he contributed "large sums of money."

When she was finished reading the declaration, the judge asked Murillo if he had any objection to what his lawyer had read out, and he said no.

Murillo said that using the money that he derived from drug trafficking was the only way to block the advance of the Communist guerrillas in Colombia.

This South American country has been in the grip of a civil war since 1964, when the leftwing guerrillas took up arms.

Murillo was sentenced to 375 months in prison on drug trafficking charges.

After the trial, Murillo’s Colombian defence attorneys approached Iván Cepeda, spokesman for the Movement of Victims of Crimes of the State (MOVICE), and told him that their client had asked that his support for Uribe be explicitly included in the statement read out by Shalley.

They also told Cepeda that Murillo was prepared to elaborate, before the Colombian justice system, on his allegations that incriminated Uribe, and to present proof, and said they hoped that this could be done as soon as possible.

The manager of Uribe’s 2002 and 2006 campaigns, Fabio Echeverri, said in Bogota that Murillo’s declaration was "false."

Echeverri, who has been the spokesman for the National Association of Industrialists for 18 years, said the campaigns were financed by donations from companies and individuals, whose checks were deposited in a bank account after the origin of the funds was checked, a process that took between 15 and 20 days.

The Colombian government has not responded to Murillo’s statement.

The U.S. court did not agree to hear the testimony of any of Murillo’s victims.

At the time, the Colombian government promised that the extraditions would not interfere with the legal proceedings carried out under the so-called Justice and Peace Law, which was approved by Congress to facilitate the demobilisation of the far-right militias.

To that end, under an agreement with the U.S. authorities, Colombia’s attorney-general’s office and ministry of the interior and justice were to arrange for judicial cooperation with the U.S. courts.

Under the Justice and Peace Law, which laid out the rules for the demobilisation process, the maximum sentence was eight years for those who gave a full confession of their crimes.

The extradition agreement states that the sentences handed down to Colombians in U.S. courts could be no longer than the maximum penalties they would have faced in Colombia.

The opposition Liberal Party expressed strong concern over Murillo’s declaration. "At this point we cannot make a judgment, but we need to know the whole truth," said its spokeswoman, Senator Cecilia López, who aspires to become her party’s presidential candidate.

The declaration implicating Uribe "in a U.S. court is extremely serious, and cannot be ignored," Gloria Flórez, the head of the Minga Association, told IPS.

"The Colombian state has the obligation to open an investigation into the declaration made by Don Berna, in which he openly refers to financing the president’s campaign," she said.

The constitution establishes that any investigation of the president has to be carried out by the lower house of Congress, and then the Senate. In case the charges involve criminal wrongdoing, the process is to be referred to the Supreme Court.

But Uribe’s supporters have a majority in both houses of Congress.

In any case, said Flórez, "the justice system has to move on this issue."

"If it is true, he (Murillo) has to show the evidence. If it’s not true, it has to be clarified before society that the presidential campaign was clean and that there was no involvement by drug traffickers," the human rights defender said. And in order to do that, she added, "legal proceedings must be initiated, to show society the truth."

Flórez expressed "concern because there are no guarantees in the United States that action will be taken to find out the truth. Failing to listen to the victims of human rights violations in Colombia is part of that lack of guarantees."

"All the United States is interested in is the drug trafficking issue. So where does that leave the question of reparations for the victims?"

During the demobilisation negotiations with the government, Murillo went by the name "Adolfo Paz", portrayed himself as an AUC inspector, and wrote to journalists criticising their reports.

Before he became a leader of the AUC, which is accused of committing tens of thousands of human rights crimes, "Don Berna" was a leftist guerrilla in the Popular Liberation Army (EPL), which broke off from the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) – the main rebel group – in the 1960s and barely exists today.

In the 1980s he became involved in the Medellín drug cartel, headed by the late notorious kingpin Pablo Escobar. But he then turned on his boss.

"Don Berna" was active in and around the city of Medellín where, according to Verdad Abierta, the biggest Colombian on-line archive on the paramilitaries, "he brought in votes for the candidates he backed."

His henchmen in the area, who belonged to the Cacique Nutibara Bloc of the AUC, were the first to demobilise, in November 2003, when the government was still doubting whether to recognise "Don Berna" as a paramilitary leader, instead of just a drug lord.

A year earlier, in October 2002, in Operation Orión, troops allegedly acting in collusion with "Don Berna’s" men seized control of a poor Medellín district known as Comuna 13 to "cleanse" the area of FARC and National Liberation Army (ELN) guerrillas.

After the paramilitary demobilisation, some of the members of the Cacique Nutibara Bloc managed to get elected to Juntas de Acción Comunal, neighborhood councils that play the role of interlocutor with the state.

Verdad Abierta cites the case of William López, alias "Memín", who was elected in October 2007 as a representative of Comuna 8, another Medellín neighbourhood, but was later arrested and sentenced for forced displacement and aggravated intimidation of voters.

Actions speak louder than words, but the self-righteous crusaders want to live by their own rules.

1 funny, 0 helpful.

tasco66 says on Apr 28, 2009, 12:20:

He also claimed that he was the first Colombian to walk on the moon...which got Byron Kostner to ask him for an autograph...

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

1 funny, 1 helpful.

dwmte7 says on Apr 28, 2009, 12:30:

yeah, darloup....it started--so the BOOK says--with fratracide.

then it covers all angles til we get to king david, who has to be one of the worst butchers ever to walk the face of the earth. he did enemy, family, neighbors, friends. 20,000 heads lopped off in a morning before lunch, just improved his appetite. nice guy.

patriarch

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Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 28, 2009, 13:10:

Lcacique says on Apr 28, 2009, 13:50:

tomtom: I did not call the US evil. I am happy to live here and think that it is a great place to live. That does not mean that I have to condone everything that our government does or has done. Your humor is appreciated, however.

billyb: Yes, during the war. And their business was a hell of a lot more vital to the Germans than that of Swiss banks. Up until '41, Ford and GM agreed to transition their German subsidiaries into plants for producing things useful for the German military. After the US declaration of war in '41, US management was not allowed to meet with German "subsidiaries on German-controlled," but this did not prevent them from meeting elsewhere. Regardless of whether or not there was a lot of contact and direct influence at this point (which is debatable), they made it well known for years that they had a lot of admiration for Hitler, they built converted plants to enable the Nazis to build their military arsenal, and they continued to profit from their plants after the US declared war.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.h...

So, would you argue that it was alright to do business with the Nazis up until we declared war?

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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tasco66 says on Apr 28, 2009, 14:17:

Lcacique, you forgot to mention this:

How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power and built the family wealth

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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Lcacique says on Apr 28, 2009, 17:33:

Wow, tasco coming to my aid. I knew about the alleged dealings and connections between Prescott and Fritz, but I did not want to go there as there are several other examples that are more well known and documented. In addition, though it is a valid point and interesting, I would have been blasted for bringing it up and called a commie.

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

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Byron_Kostner says on Apr 28, 2009, 18:51:

tasco66 "He also claimed that he was the first Colombian to walk on the moon...which got Byron Kostner to ask him for an autograph..."

Yes, maybe so, but a picture does not lie, see for yourself.

http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/post/us-financing-its-own-liability-a...

Actions speak louder than words, but the self-righteous crusaders want to live by their own rules.

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tasco66 says on Apr 29, 2009, 05:46:

"I would have been blasted for bringing it up and called a commie."

What has that got to do with the communist doctrine? I think you are a bit paranoid...

Byron Kostner, you can’t even see anything in you doctored photos. Next time buy a proper photo editor, instead of getting one of those free internets software…now go back to play with Hugo...

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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dwmte7 says on Apr 29, 2009, 05:57:

yeah, byron....i'm on your side, and your's, too, tasco...as well cacique's however, those do look like satellite photos taken with an instamatic. coke bottle lenses at 125 miles leave a lot to be desired.

patriarch

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billyb says on Apr 29, 2009, 06:03:

I would be embarrassed to point something so worthless as proof, doesn't do much for poster's credibility factor.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

0 funny, 1 helpful.

dwmte7 says on Apr 29, 2009, 06:15:

kinda reminds me of what all my friends look like after about ten drinks.

patriarch

0 funny, 1 helpful.

tasco66 says on Apr 29, 2009, 06:17:

"I would be embarrassed to point something so worthless as proof, doesn't do much for posters credibility factor."

Looks like Byron Kostner went from zero credibility to minus zero credibility...

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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dwmte7 says on Apr 29, 2009, 08:28:

fuck, tasco...........who's credibility treads water here? this lunatic assylum? it's good we're all friends, because if we weren't, it'ld be a war zone. and since there's way too many of those punctuating the earth already. if we stick to just feeling the other guy's a heel, dumb, misinformed, ignorant, illiterate, full of shit or blind, we're basically doin fine and can still sit down and tip a drink or two or until everyone looks like byron's "proof" photos.

amen

patriarch

0 funny, 1 helpful.

tasco66 says on Apr 29, 2009, 10:01:

Yep, Byron better hope the booze does not run out....

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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dwmte7 says on Apr 29, 2009, 10:16:

that's a fun commercial....my ex bus partner e'd me that sometime back.

patriarch

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Lcacique says on Apr 29, 2009, 13:45:

"What has that got to do with the communist doctrine? I think you are a bit paranoid..."

Yes! What does it have to do with the communist doctrine?!? Yet - ridiculously - I have been called one for much less. It is a lame way to try to attempt to win a debate, just toss a name at someone that carries with it - rightly or wrongly - a ton of negative associations that blind everyone to the actual argument. Then you have the wonderful "leftist," a term that is soooo vague (given that it is used to describe anyone from someone who criticizes a Conservative position to Stalin), but it is clearly an epithet.
In my opinion, it is a sign of weakness when someone throws around those terms, especially when they are used as the sole support of his/her argument.

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

3 funny, 0 helpful.

tasco66 says on Apr 29, 2009, 13:57:

Lcacique, you are really paranoid. You need to look up the word in the dictionary. It will calm you down…

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/leftist

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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goin_south says on Apr 29, 2009, 14:00:

tasco, it's 'wonderful, vague and clear' all at the same time.

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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Byron_Kostner says on Apr 29, 2009, 14:46:

tasco66 , “"Byron Kostner, you can’t even see anything in you doctored photos. Next time buy a proper photo editor, instead of getting one of those free internets software…now go back to play with Hugo...”

Billyb, “I would be embarrassed to point something so worthless as proof, doesn't do much for poster's credibility factor.”

First, fuck Hugo Chavez, seems to always be your stock reply, come up with something new next time.

Credibility, really? How are you two bozos more credible than any other anonymous posters on the internet?

Why not comment on the article, which I am not the original author, nor claim ownership of the photos as well?

Why not put your personal issues aside next time before you accuse someone of being less credible than yourselves, as well as accusing someone for doctoring photos?

Looks like the images, in the article above, where extracted from the video below.

Uribe en reunion privada con reconocidos paramilitares



Don Uribe sure looks comfortable with his paraco friends.

Actions speak louder than words, but the self-righteous crusaders want to live by their own rules.

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billyb says on Apr 29, 2009, 15:01:

"Credibility, really? How are you two bozos more credible than any other anonymous posters on the internet?"

Touchy today, are we?

"nor claim ownership of the photos as well?"

You posted them and captioned them "a picture is worth a thousand words", that means you own them, unless you are backing off that comment, in which case you credibility would be shot as well.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

0 funny, 1 helpful.

tasco66 says on Apr 29, 2009, 15:43:

can't hear anything, can't recognize anyone, nice try though Byron...

Now go back to your master Hugo for some more BS like that…so we can all have a good laugh…

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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billyb says on Apr 29, 2009, 15:54:

Reminds me of when Geraldo Rivera hyped up the "opening" of Capone's vault in Chicago, and when they get it opened all that was there was an old bottle.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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Lcacique says on Apr 29, 2009, 16:40:

Nope, I would say the same for conservatives who get called fascists by the left. For example, when someone says that they support Uribe - as in this thread - I do not go off saying that they are right-wing extremists who love death squads and social-cleansing (unless it is to poco, who has claimed on several occasions that he supports the paras).

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/17/weekinreview/sticks-and-stones-the-d...

"Es fácil vivir con los ojos cerrados interpretando todo lo que se ve mal..." ~ J. Lennon

2 funny, 0 helpful.

Byron_Kostner says on Apr 29, 2009, 17:17:

tasco66,"can't hear anything, can't recognize anyone, nice try though Byron...

Now go back to your master Hugo for some more BS like that…so we can all have a good laugh…"

Your such a tool, again sounding like a broken record more and more each day, learn to understand paisa espanol and maybe you can understand some of what is said in the video. You obviously do not know how Don Uribe looks, because that sure as fuck is paraco Uribe. You seem to have a homo-erotic fascination with Hugo, to each their own.

Maybe these videos will help you get a better grasp on paisa spanish, have a listen to a paisa paraco.

Actions speak louder than words, but the self-righteous crusaders want to live by their own rules.

3 funny, 0 helpful.

Byron_Kostner says on Apr 29, 2009, 17:22:

billyb, "Reminds me of when Geraldo Rivera hyped up the "opening" of Capone's vault in Chicago, and when they get it opened all that was there was an old bottle."

Wow, what a great analogy. Did you think that up all on your own, or did taco help you?

Actions speak louder than words, but the self-righteous crusaders want to live by their own rules.

3 funny, 0 helpful.

makopp5 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 29, 2009, 17:38:

billyb says on Apr 29, 2009, 19:05:

"Wow, what a great analogy. Did you think that up all on your own, or did taco help you?"

Take a deep breath, you are starting to look like a fool.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

0 funny, 2 helpful.

Byron_Kostner says on Apr 29, 2009, 19:12:

And you look like a horses ass, like father like son.

Actions speak louder than words, but the self-righteous crusaders want to live by their own rules.

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billyb says on Apr 29, 2009, 19:22:

"And you look like a horses ass, like father like son"

I would call that clever, if it made any sense. Have you been drinking? I mean, it takes a lot of wit to bring one's father into it, but not surprising I guess.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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dwmte7 says on Apr 30, 2009, 03:10:

brothers DAS and it's cohorts read these pages daily.....how can they help but conclude that all the folks from the u.s maybe europe who have come to live in colombia are not dissimilar to the bozos castro exported to the u.s?

i can just see these guys sitting in their offices, rolling their oeyes, looking at each other in amazement and occassionally, even having a good laugh. not to mention the times when they get so pissed they want to send out a "hit" order.

d

patriarch

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tasco66 says on Apr 30, 2009, 05:06:

Byron you really seem to enjoy making a fool of yourself with your anti-Uribe propaganda...

You look like some surrounded Farc making a last desperate attempt to discredit the Colombian government who has defeated you.

Kind of like the Colombian drug dealer rotting in a US jail who claims he “owns” Uribe...jajajaja

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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