Colombia Clean

juancegomez says on Mar 8, 2007, 19:11:

If by pretty good you mean pretty simplistic But I suppose some people will like it all the same.

Research is boring these days.

miamimike says on Mar 9, 2007, 01:25:

Tinto Sorry didn't notice your post on the same News Item otherwise I wouldn't have posted the same,,,,They say the mind is the first to go,,,LOL True in my case,,,

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? ... That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.,

juancegomez says on Mar 9, 2007, 07:43:

Tinto You're quite free to have your own opinions, but so are the rest of us.

I'm quite aware of the fact that there are flaws and problems with the demobilization program, both intentional and otherwise, but to pretend it's just a "cleaning" process and nothing else is a huge simplification that doesn't really stand before a deeper analysis of the pros and cons (yes, there are pros and cons).

Additionally, the fate of Ms. Araujo's two relatives (as of yet I see no reason to extend criminal responsibilities to her without any evidence, other than prejudice) is unrelated to the demobilization process.

I'm not opposed to publicizing the flaws, nor to criticizing those connections between the Colombian establishment and the paramilitaries, nor to denouncing paramilitary barbarity. That's perfectly fine and I also believe it's a necessary thing.

But I am definitely opposed to simplistic bashing and caricaturization that paints everything "black and white" without even trying to nuance things a bit (a mere side reference to the FARC may be morally consistent, but little else).

I also oppose simply calling the FARC "narcoterrorists" and leaving it at that, for whatever it's worth, even though I in no way support their activities and would welcome an end to them. My problem, so to speak, is with all such simplistic approaches in general.

juancegomez says on Mar 9, 2007, 08:15:

Guess again, Tinto In fact, Botero's paintings were directly based on the descriptions of the tortures that The New Yorker published, IIRC.

This cartoon isn't really directly based on any factual description of anything, but rather mostly on speculation, symbols and opinion.

cali373 says on Mar 9, 2007, 09:01:

I admit feelings of guilt being amused by this.

Smile if you are a thinker!

cali373 says on Mar 9, 2007, 09:11:

Colombian minister decries Web cartoon http://www.boston.com/news/world/latinamerica/articles/2007/03/08/colombian_minister_decries_web_cartoon/

This coming from a man who has not been ou tof captivity long enough to know what is going on, but I agree that the cartoon has a certain lack of respect.

Smile if you are a thinker!

Tinto (Moderator) says on Mar 9, 2007, 09:42:

Tough call.. By publicly complaining, the Minister just got the story and a link to the cartoon on the wire services and in the online editions of about 50 English-language newspapers.

cali373 says on Mar 9, 2007, 10:01:

That works for me. While the video-toon is simplistic at least Colombia's issues are making headlines.

Smile if you are a thinker!

juancegomez says on Mar 9, 2007, 10:15:

Tinto "The Amnesty International cartoon depicts real atrocities that have been happening for years in Colombia."

But those atrocities aren't even the main subject of the cartoon and are only being referred to in a generic manner, as something allegedly being "cleaned away". No specific incidents are being portrayed at all.

Most of the cartoon is made up of symbolism and opinion.

"The Botero cartoon paintings depict real abuses and/or torture that happened in Iraq."

Those were portraying specific abuses based on specific descriptions of particular incidents. The painter's symbolism and opinions are largely absent, beyond his "fat people" art style and choice of colors/strokes.

"The harm, I suppose, is that both sets of images might be construed as the whole story by people that don't follow the news."

Except that at least the Botero paintings are based on descriptions that you can look up and confirm (heck, there's even photographic evidence available), and are not trying to present elaborate conclusions and opinions that go beyond them.

In the case of the AI cartoon, it's really a stretch to go and find specific incidents being referenced, because it's all so generic and intentionally cartoony. They even get some simple facts wrong, but I suppose that doesn't matter.

If AI tried to make paintings that accurately reflected specific massacres and so on, without going beyond that as far as the art itself goes, I'd have zero complaints.

Of course that's not the entire picture, but at least it'd be more accurate than a simple cartoon. AI is perfectly free to make such cartoons, but I'm also perfectly free to find it simplistic.

cali373 says on Mar 9, 2007, 10:39:

All opinions aside. It is just terrible what happens in colombia, how could they just not get sick of it.

Smile if you are a thinker!

Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 9, 2007, 10:45:

Wow I can't believe the Colombian government rose to the bait. By stepping up and criticising this sophomoric cartoon they just gave the story legs. Duh. Politics 101.

Tinto, I can appreciate your disdain for many of the AUC criminals gettting off quite easily compared to their crimes. I'd urge you to look at two things, though, historically. The first is the general history of OTHER armed groups getting off light in Colombia. Specifically I'm talking about the M19 here. They got a slap on the wrist, even after taking over the Supreme Court, and in the end I think it was the right thing to do. I'd much rather have them inside the tent than outside.

The other thing to check out is how "peace processes" and "demobilizations" happen around the world. You're NEVER going to find a process that is truly just or fair or makes everyone happy. These things are by defination a way to try to get guns out of the hands of thousands of the LITTLE GUYS and get them to stop killing people. The big honchos almost always skate. It's sad and aggravating but the Colombian process is damn tough compared to similar things in Africa or other countries in Latin America.

cali373 says on Mar 9, 2007, 10:56:

So Hollywood based on you last post, do you think that there is a military solution to getting rid of guerillas? Will a military solutions really work? It has not worked for the past 40+ years, but then again I don't think Colombian generals wanted to win, they just wanted their nice pensions.

Smile if you are a thinker!

Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 9, 2007, 11:55:

Based on my last post? I don't see anything in my post about military solutions to getting rid of guerillas?

To answer your question, though, or at least what I think is your question, the answer is a definate maybe. By that I mean that, sure, with enough resources it'd be possible to make life tough enough for the "Guerillas' that they'll capitulate. However, I don't believe that military force alone will every solve Colombia's larger problem of violence.

Honestly, I don't think Colombia will ever experience true peace until the black market motive of HUGE drug profits disappears. As long as there are millions or billions to be earned by evading a poorly thought-out prohibition, then people will do it and will even kill each other from the opportunity to do so. That kind of violence is an inevitable outcome, much like Chicago under Prohibition.

I also will say that anyone who tells you there's a simple solution is deluded.