Colombia as "Failed State"

Mr. Hollywood says on Apr 25, 2008, 15:39:

Gentlemen, start your engines...

Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 25, 2008, 15:46:

"Gentlemen"?

Does that mean that we women are not welcome to comment on this thread?

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

kalder says on Apr 25, 2008, 15:57:

I'm not a gentleman either, but I'll give it a whirl.

Colombia lacks the severe ethnic and tribal animosities of an Afghanistan or a D.R. Congo, so it probably would never have sank to the hopeless depths of those poor places. My guess is that the elites and the narcos would have come to some modus vivendi even more ghastly than the current one. Making Colombia a kind of Tajikistan or Uzbekistan perhaps.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

romy says on Apr 25, 2008, 16:12:

The main exports would be the same as now
1. cocaina
2. people

Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 25, 2008, 16:19:

Colombia was not ANYWHERE closed to a failed state, not like Somalia with no government, no law and order, nothing except warring tribes and groups of bandits.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Tinto (Moderator) says on Apr 25, 2008, 16:37:

I think Kalder is right - there's a recent book called "Absurdistan" and parts of it reminded me of Colombia. For example, there are rich thugs with "smutty, new money" who can buy everything except respectability and a U.S. visa.

Robert Jorge says on Apr 25, 2008, 18:04:

"Would it look just like Bolivia?" Does that mean Colombians would adopt those colorful, hand made hats that have the ear covers and tie underneath the chin. God, the humanity.

robi666 says on Apr 25, 2008, 18:08:

Probably it would be more like Haiti. Or like the Cuba pre-Castro.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

miamimike says on Apr 25, 2008, 23:44:

Tinto says on Friday April 25th, 2008 16:37:

I think Kalder is right - there's a recent book called "Absurdistan" and parts of it reminded me of Colombia. For example, there are rich thugs with "smutty, new money" who can buy everything except respectability and a U.S. visa.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tinto--On the US Visas not being able to be bought, that part of the Book is simply incorrect. US Visas ARE for sale as evidenced by 3rd world thugs, drug dealers, Farc Terrorists can easily obtain US Visas. They can simply purchase an Investment Visa(we have many in Miami operating dummy corporations as they hide from the Law disguised as Pillars of the latin miami community) also not so long ago, we had a Miami Resident, who as a State Dept Employee based in Mexico City, sold several Tourist Visas to Farc members. She was fired and jailed but we never heard if those she sold Visas to were rounded up and jailed. If you have $$$, you will receive a US Visa,,,

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." GW Bush

Mr. Hollywood says on Apr 26, 2008, 14:10:

Tinto, I read that book, too. it's hilarious. It actually reminded me of a lot of other places more than Colombia but I can see why you thought so.

Desi, "Gentlemen, Start Your Engines" is a car racing saying, like "ready, set, go." You and all the members of the fairer sex, of course, are included.

manINred says on Apr 26, 2008, 15:04:

"Colombia was not ANYWHERE closed to a failed state, not like Somalia with no government, no law and order, nothing except warring tribes and groups of bandits"

Yes it was.

I refer you readings by top political scientists, some of the most insightful academic minds to write about the subject at hand:

Chapter 9 in "Readings in Latin American Politics: Challenges to Democratization" by Kingstone (2006, Houghton Mifflin) is dedicated to Colombia. It is called Chapter 9; Colombia: The Collapse of the State

In this chapter are articles written by Browitt: Capital Punishment: The Fragmentation of Colombia and the Crisis of the Nation-State (2001), and others which I cannot be bothered to type out.

Where the rule of law had such little legitimacy, where the state had such delicate and feeble reach, where the nation was one of the world's most dangerous and violent, that was considered a failed state, especially in a Latin American context.

MaFe says on Apr 26, 2008, 15:11:

Desideria says on Friday April 25th, 2008 16:19:

Colombia was not ANYWHERE closed to a failed state, not like Somalia with no government, no law and order, nothing except warring tribes and groups of bandits.


agree Desi...

"No comment" is a splendid expression. I am using it again and again." -Winston Churchill

Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 26, 2008, 15:32:

I'm not a brilliant academic or a writer, but I was in Colombia in a couple of occasions in the end of the 90s. I spent a couple of months in Cali in '97 and '99 and it didn't look much worse that it did in '90 or in '85. Cali is much more a "failed city" now, 2008, than it was in 10 years ago.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

MaFe says on Apr 26, 2008, 15:35:

Desi, I agree with you on this too. I don't think Colombia is a "failed state" but my beautiful Cali is a failed city.

\\

"No comment" is a splendid expression. I am using it again and again." -Winston Churchill

slguy says on Apr 26, 2008, 16:02:

i guess definitions are lacking, here. ;)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

kalder says on Apr 26, 2008, 16:11:

True.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 26, 2008, 16:15:

Failed States according to Foreign Policy, 2005-2007

Alert -magenta

Warning- red

No Information / Dependent Territory -grey Moderate-yellow

Sustainable-green

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 26, 2008, 16:20:

Indicators of State Vulnerability
The index's ranks are based on twelve indicators of state vulnerability - four social, two economic and six political.[2] The indicators are not designed to forecast when states may experience violence or collapse. Instead, they are meant to measure a state's vulnerability to collapse or conflict. All countries in the red, orange, or yellow categories display some features that make parts of their societies and institutions vulnerable to failure. Some in the yellow zone may be failing at a faster rate than those in the more dangerous orange or red zones, and therefore could experience violence sooner. Conversely, some in the red zone, though critical, may exhibit some positive signs of recovery or be deteriorating slowly, giving them time to adopt mitigating strategies.[1]


[edit] Social Indicators
1. Demographic pressures: including the pressures deriving from high population density relative to food supply and other life-sustaining resources. The pressure from a population's settlement patterns and physical settings, including border disputes, ownership or occupancy of land, access to transportation outlets, control of religious or historical sites, and proximity to environmental hazards.[3]

2. Massive movement of refugees and internally displaced peoples: forced uprooting of large communities as a result of random or targeted violence and/or repression, causing food shortages, disease, lack of clean water, land competition, and turmoil that can spiral into larger humanitarian and security problems, both within and between countries.[4]

3. Legacy of vengeance-seeking group grievance: based on recent or past injustices, which could date back centuries. Including atrocities committed with impunity against communal groups and/or specific groups singled out by state authorities, or by dominant groups, for persecution or repression. Institutionalized political exclusion. Public scapegoating of groups believed to have acquired wealth, status or power as evidenced in the emergence of "hate" radio, pamphleteering and stereotypical or nationalistic political rhetoric.[5]

4. Chronic and sustained human flight: both the "brain drain" of professionals, intellectuals and political dissidents and voluntary emigration of "the middle class." Growth of exile/expat communities are also used as part of this indicator.[6]


[edit] Economic Indicators
5. Uneven economic development along group lines: determined by group-based inequality, or perceived inequality, in education, jobs, and economic status. Also measured by group-based poverty levels, infant mortality rates, education levels.[7]

6. Sharp and/or severe economic decline: measured by a progressive economic decline of the society as a whole (using: per capita income, GNP, debt, child mortality rates, poverty levels, business failures.) A sudden drop in commodity prices, trade revenue, foreign investment or debt payments. Collapse or devaluation of the national currency and a growth of hidden economies, including the drug trade, smuggling, and capital flight. Failure of the state to pay salaries of government employees and armed forces or to meet other financial obligations to its citizens, such as pension payments.[8]


[edit] Political Indicators
7. Criminalization and/or delegitimisation of the state: endemic corruption or profiteering by ruling elites and resistance to transparency, accountability and political representation. Includes any widespread loss of popular confidence in state institutions and processes.[9]

8. Progressive deterioration of public services: a disappearance of basic state functions that serve the people, including failure to protect citizens from terrorism and violence and to provide essential services, such as health, education, sanitation, public transportation. Also using the state apparatus for agencies that serve the ruling elites, such as the security forces, presidential staff, central bank, diplomatic service, customs and collection agencies.[10]

9. Widespread violation of human rights: an emergence of authoritarian, dictatorial or military rule in which constitutional and democratic institutions and processes are suspended or manipulated. Outbreaks of politically inspired (as opposed to criminal) violence against innocent civilians. A rising number of political prisoners or dissidents who are denied due process consistent with international norms and practices. Any widespread abuse of legal, political and social rights, including those of individuals, groups or cultural institutions (e.g., harassment of the press, politicization of the judiciary, internal use of military for political ends, public repression of political opponents, religious or cultural persecution.)[11]

10. Security apparatus as ‘state within a state’: an emergence of elite or praetorian guards that operate with impunity. Emergence of state-sponsored or state-supported private militias that terrorize political opponents, suspected "enemies," or civilians seen to be sympathetic to the opposition. An "army within an army" that serves the interests of the dominant military or political clique. Emergence of rival militias, guerilla forces or private armies in an armed struggle or protracted violent campaigns against state security forces.[12]

11. Rise of factionalised elites: a fragmentation of ruling elites and state institutions along group lines. Any use of nationalistic political rhetoric by ruling elites, often in terms of communal irredentism or of communal solidarity (e.g., "ethnic cleansing" or "defending the faith.")[13]

12. Intervention of other states or external factors: military or Para-military engagement in the internal affairs of the state at risk by outside armies, states, identity groups or entities that affect the internal balance of power or resolution of the conflict. Intervention by donors, especially if there is a tendency towards over-dependence on foreign aid or peacekeeping missions
(Wiki)


I've been browsing through several scholarly articles about "Colombia. a failing state" and found Martha Lucia Pinzon's paper on the topic readable and concise.

http://www.americasnet.net/Commentators/Martha_Pinzon/pinzon_98_eng.pd...

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

manINred says on Apr 26, 2008, 19:08:

What the heck? I wrote a long piece with some good info and insight a couple of hours ago (well I think) and it didn't show up! Ohhhhhh so tedious, oh well. Damn computers!

Tinto (Moderator) says on Apr 27, 2008, 09:15:

MiamiMike - From the weekend Wall Street Journal:

---------------------------
MOSCOW -- In his first public comments on the issue, Oleg Deripaska, a metals billionaire who is one of cash-soaked Russia's wealthiest men, said he considers the U.S. "the last country on the list where we would invest" because of Washington's refusal to grant him an entry visa.
-------------------------

Obviously, some people are able to exploit loopholes or bribe an ethically-challenged Customs/State department worker, but if you're a big fish and already on the government's radar, they can keep you out if they want to.

kalder says on Apr 27, 2008, 12:14:

I get that all the time manINred, if I'm using my laptop.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

azunoman says on Apr 28, 2008, 09:48:

The labeling of "failed state" is done by those most responsible for creating a failed state in the first place.

The US and the UN took over the world lead in creating failed states after the colonization/rape pillaging cultures.

Ready, Fire, Aim

kalder says on Apr 28, 2008, 09:51:

Example?

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

azunoman says on Apr 28, 2008, 10:52:

So many examples...

- Karl Rove basically invented the phrase 'Failed State' in his original white paper to Bush that defined the Bush administration depart of defense decisions for the last seven years. That should be enough to scare those less familiar with history.

- lets just take one that a major motion picture from last year staring Tom Hanks, in Charlie Wilson's War with the Oscar making moment when at the end, once the US goal of defeating Russia in Afghanistan was complete then all money and interest in the region ended. The US not only create the failed state in Afghanistan but eventually used their own definition of a failed state to go back and overthrow those that they had supported against Russia in the first place.

I find it too overwhelming to contemplate everywhere our US government has created failed states, starting even so far back as how we broke Panama out of the Republic of Colombia just so the US could own/run the Panama canal. Not to mention how historically shitty our government has been to South America in general. Historically substantiated fact that we purposely provoked a war with Mexico just so we could take 40 percent of country. Holy...I going down the rabbit hole...

Ready, Fire, Aim

Tinto (Moderator) says on Apr 28, 2008, 10:55:

"Failed state" goes at least as far back as Somalia in 1992 and was used to describe Colombia (although as a "failing state") throughout the 1990s.

SiV says on Apr 28, 2008, 11:20:

So, following the requisites Desi posted above, my own very personal and arbitrary assessment of Colombia is as follows:

Social indicators
1. No
2. Yes
3. Yes
4 Yes
Economic
5. Yes
6. No (though the drugs trade could make this a yes)
Political
7. Yes- debatable
8. Yes- debatable
9. Yes
10. Yes- debatable
11. No -debatable
12. Yes

What about you lot?

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Mahatma Gandhi

kalder says on Apr 28, 2008, 11:59:

I wouldn't lay all of Afghanistan's myriad woes at the doors of the White House. The fact that's it home to umpteen million barbarians has something to do it I'm sure.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

azunoman says on Apr 28, 2008, 11:59:

I think it might be very interesting for thread to grade SiV's test results.

Ready, Fire, Aim

tomtom33 says on Apr 28, 2008, 13:28:

Let's not forget about the failed State of Israel created in 1948. Fucking US.

Rubito says on Apr 28, 2008, 13:59:

I'd LOVE to hear how Canada is more politically stable than the US, especially considering all the BS with Quebec!! What utter and complete nonsense. Fact is, for being such a big country the USA is INCREDIBLY politically stable. Whatever big problems we do have that is NOT one of them.

Likewise, Colombia has a big problem with internal displacement but DOES NOT have one with emigration. Just as big a percentage of the population live outside of Canada, Australia, the UK and New Zealand (around 10% of total population). Once more, utter and complete horseshit.

And DETERIORATION of public services in Colombia over the years? One would have to be smoking some serious crack to believe that one! Nor does Colombia have a food supply problem by ANY serious measure. Nor has it ever had anything more than brief and shallow recessions economically.

The 1990s were not by a LONG shot the worst years of Colombia's history.

Russia isn't my idea of utopia either, but the idea of putting it in the orange is LAUGHABLE. It's never done BETTER as a country OR been more stable. There's more money in Moscow these days than there is in NYC or LA!

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

SiV says on Apr 28, 2008, 21:40:

So, money = stability?

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Mahatma Gandhi

Rubito says on Apr 28, 2008, 21:48:

Nope. STABILITY is stability. And Russia currently has it as much as anywhere in North America does.

---Violence is the price of freedom.---