Colombia - Racism or Caste System?

gabolicious says on Sep 4, 2007, 17:20:

"How many Colombians living abroad, have you met that doesn't tell you about their fincas, what strata they lived in or their last name..."

I live abroad. I don-t talk about my fincas, cause I have any, I dont talk about the strata my family lives in, cause the country I live in is Mexico and they dont know about this system, and I dont talk about my last name Modotti, cause they always say "Modo... que?, eso no es colombiano"

I have a better idea Strata2woman (your nickname pretty much according to the subject we are dealing here, am I right?) our small piece of word will change until we change our own minds... they way we feel about being just Colombians...

"The new land of opportunities: Colombia!" ----- Mr Miguel_Clavo on PBH

Atrevido says on Sep 4, 2007, 17:55:

Señora usted está equivocada. There is plenty of racism in Colombia even in lower stratas. But you are right that Colombians can not easily advance socially...even when they are a successfull narco. When the bros. Orejuela (most famous narcos after Escobar) were rejected from the elite Club Colombia they built a nearly exact replica of it in Ciudad Jardin. Anyhow the people I know living in strata 2 barrio Floralia in Cali are all quite happy living where they are. They wouldn´t move even if they won the lottery because they would then be far from friends and family (which counts a gret deal in Colombia).

Robert Jorge says on Sep 4, 2007, 17:58:

I can't speak of Europe, actually I just won't; but I do not know of (government tolerated) racial segregation in the US. The last time the US had government tolerated and/or supported segregation, Colombia was going through la violencia (sp?) If there is racial segregation today in the US, it is self segregation. The social aspects and reasons could be debated forever.

The whole reason I originally visited Colombia was because one of my best friends invited me to go on vacation with him. He was born there. Before 2 years ago, I had met perhaps 2 dozen Colombians in my life. I never knew what the term estrato meant, or was even aware the term existed. So, I politely disagree that Colombians abroad generally talk or brag about fincas and estrato. As a matter of fact, I only learned of the term by being a member of this site.

Colombians can live anywhere they want, according to what they can afford. I actually know several, who live in very low estrato homes, because they enjoy the cheap utility rates. They could easily afford the 6, but they consider it a waste of money and don't find it necessary.

And this is my last thought. It is actually a question, and I am not being smart. What is a "nobel" last name? I would like to know what sur-names (last names) in Colombia are considered hidy-tidy, upper-class, prestigious. I truly do not know.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

Robert Jorge says on Sep 4, 2007, 18:02:

Maybe Club Colombia rejected Orejuela because he was a scumbag. The club perhaps actually had decency standards. If I owned or was a member of a club, I wouldn't want that type of element around.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

juancegomez says on Sep 4, 2007, 18:12:

Racial, economic and social discrimination are all real problems. But I believe there is no real caste system if you're comparing it to proper historical examples of the same.

The discrimination that does occur (a lot) is nowhere near as organized, rigid and automatic as the term "caste system" implies. It's something more individualized than anything else, for lack of a better term.

People are often judged (unfairly and otherwise) by how they look/dress, how they act/speak and who they know/are related to, as well as how much money they have...but not really by a magical number most people don't even ask about (or which may not even accurately reflect their wealth , or lack thereof).

So the use of the term "strata" sometimes highlighted here is a bit artificial...more of a fictional reference than a daily reality (again, as mentioned elsewhere, you have plenty of people who live in neighborhoods above or below the strata that you'd expect).

strata2woman says on Sep 4, 2007, 18:27:

It looks like we will have a spirited discussion. I like that! The caste system in its true sense is not what I was referring to. The lack of opportunities available to the poor in our country is.
Nowhere is the "last name" of importance as seen in the Reinas del Carnaval en B/quilla - since the 1950's they all are related to each other on some type or another, the Names and the Chars still have a hold on the local politics. Once again, I will say it again. Is not Racial discrimination we have to fight against - it is Economic discrimination.
Al que le caiga el clavo que se lo clave!.

- "con sombrero vueltiao y abarcas de tres puntá"

miamimike says on Sep 4, 2007, 18:34:

" How many Colombians living abroad, have you met that doesn't tell you about their fincas, what strata they lived in or their last name, [it seems like last names in Colombia are a badge of nobility], to show that they were not poor in their previous lives."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Strata2Woman-Agreed. I hear this a lot here in Miami ; seems no one lives in EL CAMPO, everyone lives in Bog, Medellin, Cali -no one is from the small town!LOL. One Col Miami Lady who supposedly was from Strata 6 in Col -well a neighbor of hers visited from Col and informed us the lady is strata1-2 and was a Cleaning lady(maid) in La Isla Margarita(venezuela)(undocumented also). So much for strata 6. Nothing wrong with being a cleaning lady as its honest work but to lie about it,thats another story,,,

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? ... That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.,

Leeroy says on Sep 4, 2007, 19:04:

"here people are not judge by the color of their skin, but by the strata we live in"

Fair enough - but often one will imply the other, no?

I have heard "Indio" used pejoratively more than once here - the fact remains that (generally, exceptions notwithstanding) the darker one's skin the lower the estrata they live in.

It has been suggested (at the international school in which I work) that parents give expat teachers less shit than local teachers precisely because of the estrata system. Most parents (and, correspondingly their kids) live in estrata 5 , while most Colombian teachers reside in estrata 3 . While the expat teachers may still be relatively poor compared to most parents, we are considered as "excluded" from the caste system - they are not sure quite how to classify us, so neither talk up nor down to us per se.

Oh, and Miami, so I am told, is estrata 7.

jaramillo says on Sep 4, 2007, 19:05:

I was born and raised in an upper stratum in Medellin. Racism is deeply ingrained. It's just a fact of life. Look at the mayors, successful industrialists, even intellectuals. Show me a black person. The notion that blacks are inferior is a given in many quarters. The occasional success story is looked at with puzzlement. Truly a shame. Ditto for indians in Bogotá.

Morrongo says on Sep 4, 2007, 19:51:

What an interesting topic. Of course racism is ingrained here.It is much more prevalent in estrata 4 and above. I lived in estrata 3 Nueva Floresta, Cali,what a great neighbourhood, vibrant and the people so friendly, helpful ,courteous. I now live in supposedly estrata 5 Guadalupe.
As an example, if i bring a white friend here i get the usual pleasantries, if she is black wow that's a different story,silence and disapproving looks.The same goes if am in a good shopping mall.They are plenty of Negros here, but only as maids. When was the last time you saw an indigenous or negro on novelas or as a steward on Avianca.The opportunity's to improve ones lot is slim if you are in a estrata 3 or below,whatever colour,that's a fact, even if you have the qualifications.You can judge a person by thier friends and I know who I feel more comfortable with here or whatever country.

strata2woman says on Sep 4, 2007, 19:59:

Dr. Jose Rago Rodriguez - Barranquilla Ex-Mayor, Edgard Perea - Former Senador del Atlantico [both black] and perhaps there are many others that I don't know about.

No, in Colombia [ the darker our skin is, does not equal with poverty] I suppose if you are in some parts of the Pacific Coast or in Cartagena or some of the Andeans areas or La Guajira Peninsula, where the majority of the population is racially localized accordingly to the ancestry perhaps, but once again, it has to do with regional areas rather than racial discrimination.
Let's not mix apples and oranges. The majority of our poor are not necessarily poor because their color, we are poor because we haven't been allowed to push ahead.

Once again, I dont' need to repeat myself in saying that in Colombia is not Racial Discrimination we have to fight against, is Economic discrimination. Case in point, Leeroy comments - "While the expat teachers may still be relatively poor compared to most parents, we are considered as "excluded" from the caste system - they are not sure quite how to classify us, so neither talk up nor down to us per se." These parents perhaps have the mind set that many uppity Colombians have that if you are a foreigner especially from the states or Europe you must be well off, so far from the truth, many of these guys are just poor folks trying to make a living just like any other poor Colombian, the only reason they are treated different is because of Colombians caste system silliness.

Regarding, Colombians abroad talking pendejadas, I have known many.

- "con sombrero vueltiao y abarcas de tres puntá"

Atrevido says on Sep 4, 2007, 20:00:

Robert Jorge actually there are apellidos that are specific to the upper class such as Grajales. Maybe that´s what she means by "nobel". There are also apellidos specific to black Colombians such as Quiñonez, Zapata, Mosquera etc.

juancegomez says on Sep 4, 2007, 20:09:

Some last names may be more useful for that argument than others, but"Mosquera", for example, is hardly that racially specific...there was even a 19th century president with that last name and he did not appear to be black (at least on the available depictions).

Robert Jorge says on Sep 4, 2007, 20:15:

I asked the better half about the Grajales. Bless her heart ... she had no idea that was a "upper-class" name. She did mention that it is a brand of (maybe) Colombian wine. She couldn't figure out why I burst out laughing at that.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

Atrevido says on Sep 4, 2007, 20:17:

Maybe so. I have not done any lineage research. My source is caleña so if Mosquera is not really a black last name it is at least believed to be by the "man on the street" in Cali.

Atrevido says on Sep 4, 2007, 20:30:

RJ yes Grajales is the name of a brand of wine and also the name of the upper class, money laundering family to whom the winery belongs. If your better half is unaware that certain names are associated with families of class in Colombia (she is Colombian?) then we can conclude you married a woman who is not class conscious.

Robert Jorge says on Sep 4, 2007, 21:26:

Yes, she is as Colombian as you get. And I take that as complimentary when you say your conclusion is that she is not class conscious. I feel very lucky. I would say she is unexposed - perhaps innocent is a better term - when it comes to classism and crap like that. I don't mind sharing tidbits of personal info. She lived in an estrato 2 house in Villavo. The only reason I was aware of the estrato, is because after learning about the concept here over a year ago, I snuck a peek at her mother's gas bill receipt. That is also around the time that I realized I had rented an estrato 4 apartment. When we rented it, I was totally ignorant of the term and concept. The estrato revelation also explained the mystery of why her mom paid less than half of what we did for electric, when we were seldom home, and used way less light. jajaja Over time, when reflecting over certain experiences while living in Colombia, I now can think of times I personally witnessed classism to a small degree, even though at the time I was clueless. The biggy is when I with Mrs. RJ and 6 or 7 inlaws met at the apartment to meet the landlord for the lease signing ceremony. (sarcasm intended) It took damn near an hour, and the landlord kept wanting to ask wierd questions. She seemed pleasant, but fake. And, I could tell my "sort of" brother in law was a little upset. I asked him what was wrong, and he said that the landlady trusted me, but she was suspicious of the family and hesitant to accept Mrs. RJ's, mother's co-signature. I of course asked "why?", and it was never explained to me. But now I know.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

Robert Jorge says on Sep 4, 2007, 21:26:

oops - erased an accidental double post

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

slguy says on Sep 4, 2007, 21:51:

"The majority of our poor are not necessarily poor because their color, we are poor because we haven't been allowed to push ahead."

Help me understand, please? What exactly has been done to you to prevent you "pushing ahead"?

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

RussianFred says on Sep 4, 2007, 22:10:

slguy, In America minorities are keep behind by institionalized racisim. It starts at the age of two. White people have better pre-school, products and services. Have you ever went to a store in a poor area? The products and services are not the same. The schools gear minorities to trades and whites to college. It also starts with the family. Most minorities families are fatherless.

Annual Drug Deaths: Tobacco: 395,000, Alcohol: 125,000, 'Legal' Drugs: 38,000, Illegal Drug Overdoses: 5,200, Marijuana: 0. Considering government subsidies of tobacco, just what is our government protecting us from in the drug war?--Ralph Nader

RussianFred says on Sep 4, 2007, 22:15:

What estrato are Americans? It must be 3 or lower because everyone want cash if they decide to deal with us. F... the Colombians they maybe estrato 5 or 6 in Colombia but they are a 1 or 2 in America.

Please clean my house and mow my lawn. It's very difficult to do business in this country.

Annual Drug Deaths: Tobacco: 395,000, Alcohol: 125,000, 'Legal' Drugs: 38,000, Illegal Drug Overdoses: 5,200, Marijuana: 0. Considering government subsidies of tobacco, just what is our government protecting us from in the drug war?--Ralph Nader

Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 4, 2007, 22:23:

Tomás Cipriano de Mosquera y Arboleda, four times president of the Republic of Colombia came from a distinguished Popayan family and indeed, was not very black.:)


Cheers,
Desi

BTW,
Welcome back Strata2Woman! Long time no see!

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 4, 2007, 22:44:

It's a many-layered problem and has no simple explanation. Colombia does not have a caste system because even if many foregners erroneously call the stratification of neitghbourhoods for the purpose of leveling out the payments of utilities as such, it's not. This we have discussed a hundred times here.

What Colombia has is a strict, hierachial class society with racial undertones. This society is what Colombia inherited from the 15-17 century Spaniards have not been capable of modernizing. In that society, higher education is the priviledge of a few and manual labor is considered demeaning. The few ruling families, the aristocracy feel it's up to them to lead the country, both politically and economically, because of their position, resources and tradition. Tradition plays a major role in the upbringing of sons and daughters of important families, those that have provided public service to the nation during many decades. Few people have access to that small circle of powerful upper class, no matter what they race is.

During the last two decades, however, and after the new Constitution was drafted, things have been moving on, slowly, but surely. Mayors elected by direct vote (and yet, like the demoted black mayor of Cali have not always been any better). The rise of the political left and the breakdown of the two-party system have been modernizing the social and political structure of the country and Cali at least, definitely, has become much LESS racist during the the last two decades.

The older generation go to their graves leaving a country in turmoil, a class society based on tradition and economical power, a political mess with South America's oldest and largest existing Marxist guerrilla and half-way botched paramilitary disarmament. Lovely young girls though and advanced cosmetic surgery, at low prices.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

goin_south says on Sep 4, 2007, 22:57:

""As you get to know Colombia better you can almost see a number from 1-6 painted on people's foreheads, it's THAT obvious.""

Maybe it's a personal thing, 'Bito... because you like to classify people. And, because, as you have proclaimed many times here before, you have no regard or respect for, and maintain no integrity for human life.

y, un mil gracias.

capitan_centella says on Sep 4, 2007, 23:34:

Russian fred. I don´t have the honor to know my father, and I´m right know in the best university (by the way PUBLIC & CHEAP I only pay 200 dollars SEMESTER) and I´m truly happy working, and. . guess what? I have a ESTRATO 5 girlfriend. Maybe In the US we are ESTRATO 1, but how many of you, ESTRATO 5 in the united states SPEAK SPANISH? . . . spanish by it´s nature is way too much difficult than english. Or even better, how many of you ESTRATO 5 in US can speak, japanese, english and portuguese?. . . I KNOW A GUY WHO CAN. ME.

And guess what? The american embassy denied me the visa, becouse I study in LA UNIVERSIDAD NACIONAL. . . so it´s your country fault, that only narcos and people who are so poor, that only have money to spend, can pass your boundaries. (Sorry, limits, perhaps you´re not familiar with that fancy word)

Many, many of you can´t even point your own country in a map. So please spare me the first world
speech.

* * * *

And Desideria, you only have WHITE / BLACK RACISM, becouse you sistematically kill all your native-americans, turning them into some souvenir you can buy. So you "import" minorities to blame them for all your problems. Custer was white. . . remenber?




So don´t use history to prove your point, thats a low blow. And remenber KKK was born in North America, among the southern people, Martin luther king was murdered in the US, he was black and has a degree. . . and I keep going all the way. And if you want a genocide in XX century, remenber the killings of mapuche´s indians in argentina, or without getting too far, the "coalition of the willing". . . wuau, every country has the ruler they deserve.

(I´m aware of North American history. And the use of North it´s totally intentional, You´re not the only americans, and english is only spoken in the 45% of AMERICA. . . keep that in mind every time you write in english.)

check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_massacres

O si lo prefiere, podemos hablar en español. . . así las ideas serán mas parejas y será el lenguaje que podemos utilizar, por que SOLO LOS POBRES, los negros, los hispanos, indios, o los brutos hablamos español. . . así que me haría un favor al rebajarse a mi nivel, e intentar escribir con buena ortografía. Por que ustedes no son ni capaces de escribir la "ñ".

Con alt 164 lo logra.

"When you open your eyes, you turn around with the world, But it can change, if you only close it, and see a dream to yourself." Me.

christobeldawg says on Sep 4, 2007, 23:40:

Captain, welcome back, as you appear to be back with gusto

admittedly, arriving can feel great too

capitan_centella says on Sep 4, 2007, 23:47:

Yeap, the last name really matters. But be carefull, people with their last name repeated, probably come from married-cousins. So they are so stupid, they have to pay too much money for their education. And they stay as "dad´s boy/girl" until the age of 50. Working on the same spot, and spawn more childrens like this.

Bad thing. I see it everyday.

"When you open your eyes, you turn around with the world, But it can change, if you only close it, and see a dream to yourself." Me.

capitan_centella says on Sep 4, 2007, 23:52:

Crist, nice to hear from you. And your manners impecable as usual. Just glad to be back. . .

"When you open your eyes, you turn around with the world, But it can change, if you only close it, and see a dream to yourself." Me.

capitan_centella says on Sep 4, 2007, 23:53:

assim e a vida. . . coisas passam. . .

"When you open your eyes, you turn around with the world, But it can change, if you only close it, and see a dream to yourself." Me.

goin_south says on Sep 4, 2007, 23:59:

Okay, Captain Extravagante, y Exagerante... lol.
'The Truth' is only yours, as you see it.
Not too many others here, RUNNING OUT IN FRONT OF CARS IN COLOMBIA.. lol.


And, Capitan Centella... jus a warning;
Desi isn't from the EEUU.

y, un mil gracias.

capitan_centella says on Sep 5, 2007, 00:14:

* * * *
Going south:

Thats even worst. I was wondering, how she knows the full name from Cipriano de mosquera?
jajajajajaja, she´s probably colombian. And yes, hidden racism its a fact that happens in colombia every minute. But still uses history as a fact is a well known low blow.

* * * *
Rubito:

Eu nao comcordo com eles tambein.

"Desilusão, desilusão
Danço eu dança você
Na dança da solidão"

(ill took it as motive, so right)
* * * * *
Just to soft things a little, and another point of view . . . have you seen avenue q?

check this out
http://www.avenueq.com/about.html

My all time favorite song is "every body is a little bit racist"
(you´ll understand my strange and unusual statement once you see the link ABOVE. . . LOL)

=D

you can find videos from you tube, just type "avenue q". . . good night.

"When you open your eyes, you turn around with the world, But it can change, if you only close it, and see a dream to yourself." Me.

goin_south says on Sep 5, 2007, 00:18:

'I feel..... the curse' ;(
jejejjj

y, un mil gracias.

jaramillo says on Sep 5, 2007, 05:27:

Strata2 woman. Yes, a FEW dark skinned successes, but that is Barranquilla. That is another country dear (ask Elmodefoque). I'm talking about the interior!

Yes Desi, the Mosqueras were the top in Popayan. Some have speculated that many Chocó Mosqueras were former hacienda slaves of the Mosquera family.

junkyak says on Sep 5, 2007, 05:35:

So blacks and indians get looked down upon and whites get respected. What about the middle easterners, east indians, chinese, polynesians,etc?

toneloc24 says on Sep 5, 2007, 08:05:

Strata2lady - Yep, you're preaching to the choir with me and GIB.

Many here don't see it this way, but there's a reason that things remain the same. I'm staying out of this subject that's been discussed and won't ever be settled. Hence, the problems remain because people fail to see the other side of things.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

droble77 says on Sep 5, 2007, 08:33:

"In America we have overt racism and covert classism
In Colombia it's viceversa."

I think that pretty much sums it up in a nutshell.

Of course, the amusing part is that the visitor can easily notice and identify racism/classism in the country they're visiting.

But when it comes to their OWN home country, it's so ingrained they don't even notice half the time. . .

juancegomez says on Sep 5, 2007, 08:34:

Like Desi said and others have explained numerous times, the strata system as such controls how much people have to pay for utilities, that's it. Residentially, "estrato 1" pay the least and "estrato 6" pay the most for utilities. I believe there are higher industrial/commercial strata as well, which also have to pay more.

Now, some people do indeed feel the need to classify others according to their own perceived understanding of what "estrato" is, but that's perverting the actual use of the system and you don't see everyone classifying other people with numbers like robots at first sight.

Heck, even if you hear someone speak of "estrato alto" or "estrato bajo", which is more common, you don't even know if that classification really corresponds to the numerical reality of where a person lives and how much he or she pays for utilities.

This doesn't mean that there is no discrimination, of course there is and I can't repeat that enough, but the sickness isn't in the bedsheets, so to speak. That's the point.

I definitely don't want things to "remain the same". Yet the problem doesn't lie in the misuse of a series of numbers used to determine payment for utilities (which may not reflect the real wealth of a person, since people can move from one "estrato" to the other for many different reasons), but rather in society itself.

Focusing on what's a result, not the origin, of (racial, social or economic) discrimination isn't going to change things. You have to do away with the mentality, not with the numbers (if you could abolish them what would change? Only the vocabulary employed to pay for utilities and to discriminate). So forgive me if I don't confuse the real problem with the dress it sometimes wears.

Miguel says on Sep 5, 2007, 08:59:

Post of the year on this beat to death subject goes to my man juancegomez.

Mr. Hollywood says on Sep 5, 2007, 09:09:

All I have to say on this subject is that in my little slice of Colombia (middle to upper-class Bogota) I know a LOT more poor white people who have become affluent through hard work, marriage or other ways than I know poor Black folks who have achieved the same.

And for a place without racism I sure here a lot of jokes about Black people being "esclavos" or stupid or overly-sexed... Pretty much the same racist crap you hear in the US.

strata2woman says on Sep 5, 2007, 09:46:

Is that the norm? that poor folks become middle class through hard work? I don't think so. Once again we miss the point. I am talking about Colombia perpetuating the economic status quo on her citizens not because of our race but because what strata we were born. Do we really think that a child born in "Los arrabales" anywhere in Colombia is prevented to achieve his full potential because of his or her race? or it is because the social status this child was born in? I find it disheartening that my fellow Colombians will focus only on the racial issue and not in what really ills our country - Economic disparity.

- "con sombrero vueltiao y abarcas de tres puntá"

Swinn88 says on Sep 5, 2007, 09:48:

Swinn88 says on Sep 5, 2007, 09:49:

Part 2

Swinn88 says on Sep 5, 2007, 09:50:

Part 3

Swinn88 says on Sep 5, 2007, 09:51:

Part 3

Swinn88 says on Sep 5, 2007, 09:53:

The Above videos are in Spanish with English subtitles. Very Interesting and should answer many questions many of us have.

Swinn88 says on Sep 5, 2007, 09:54:

With regard to racism in Colombia.

Swinn88 says on Sep 5, 2007, 09:54:

The ODR documents segregation practices, analyzes patterns of racial discrimination and offers joint spaces between afro colombian communities, academics and institutions.
Do you want to denounce racial discrimination cases in Colombia? Contact us in odr at uniandes.edu.co
ODR was created by Andes University Centre of Social and Law Research (CIJUS), Black Communities Process (PCN) and the Centre of Studies of Law, Justice and Society (Dejusticia). ODR is supported by European Union. (more)

elmodefoque says on Sep 5, 2007, 09:55:

"So blacks and indians get looked down upon and whites get respected. What about the middle easterners, east indians, chinese, polynesians,etc?" junkjak

Not only they get all the respect, but they get all the CHUCHA too!!!!

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

Mr. Hollywood says on Sep 5, 2007, 10:07:

Sorry strata2woman but when I hired a black domestica and some of my white estrata 6 Colombian neighbors were warning me that she was going to steal and abuse my children, it wasn't because of the neighborhood she came from.

juancegomez says on Sep 5, 2007, 10:16:

strata2woman: Economic disparity is right, that's one of the forms of discrimination, but my point is, precisely, that the numbers aren't what makes the difference here. It's the underlying realities, not the vocabulary.

GiB: "I know what estrata you live in and Desi doesn't even live in Colombia, she is beyond help. So yep like was said people will continue to ignore the problem until it bites them in the ass."

First, at least I'm not ignoring the problem, only disagreeing about its diagnosis.
Second, you can guess what my residential strata is, certainly, but let's just say you wouldn't expect to find other things that a number can't tell you.

"The doing away with the estrata system is a step Juan."

Fine. So let's say that utilities are now going to be determined using colors, random strings of letters or simply location.

If you don't do anything else, it's only a change in vocabulary. But consider that there wasn't any overt utility stratification system during most of Colombia's prior history and discrimination wasn't any better, it was actually just as bad or even worse.

Even if you abolished the terms right now, many people would probably still use the same terms or readily available alternatives (it's not the best example, because the U.S. has actually taken other steps, but even if the "n-word" has become politically incorrect, it's still used and many people manage to discriminate even when they avoid it).

ColombianoGringo says on Sep 5, 2007, 10:18:

My maternal grandmother is a Mosquera from Neiva, Huila and she is not even a tiny bit black. She is pretty racist though.

The current governor of the Huila department is also Mosquera and does not look even partially black.

strata2woman says on Sep 5, 2007, 10:28:

I suppose, accordingly to Rubito if we send our poor to Etiquette Schools, Speech classes and do some of the other nonsense he's is referring to, the poor's problem will be solved.
How elitist and Reganoist. Isn't that what they say about the black in the states and the Ebonics language?

- "con sombrero vueltiao y abarcas de tres puntá"

Mr. Hollywood says on Sep 5, 2007, 10:39:

Just one thing. It seems we're confusing the "estrato" system of charging for public services and utilities with the broader issue of class discrimination. Estratos have become a verbal shorthand for class distinction in Colombia, but they aren't the problem itself. In other countries the same thing is done in more subtle ways, like talking about the neighborhood ("He's from the South Side...") or, in the US, hilarious euphemisms like "subsidized school lunch families."

Tinto (Moderator) says on Sep 5, 2007, 10:47:

I must be living under a rock. I thought the ridiculous Ebonics controversy died out in Oakland, CA about a decade ago.

strata2woman says on Sep 5, 2007, 10:55:

I apologize Rubito, I see what you meant.

- "con sombrero vueltiao y abarcas de tres puntá"

christobeldawg says on Sep 5, 2007, 10:58:

Basically it is just a system of taxation, right?, where those who can afford to pay more are required to do so. Human nature then kicks in and starts classifying people as to class, based on their number in the property taxation system. That is inevitable, but all in all, it seems to be a pretty fair system. If people would just look at everyone as an equal person, and as a child of God, then they would see this is just a way of fair taxation, nothing more, nothing less. I know, this is the real world, and there will always be prejudice, and always very difficult to move up in the rankings, but it's like that everywhere. My two cents, don't blast me please. Never mind, go ahead, if I need to be blasted, let me know what I am missing here.

admittedly, arriving can feel great too

Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 5, 2007, 11:12:

It's truly amazing that some people do not se the forest for the trees. To say that I am disqualified to talk about Colombia and "beyond help" (GIB) is totally uncalled for. It's true that I do not live in Colombia at this time, however my residency on Colombia outranks yours by more than double amount of years, plus that I speak the language, have a degree from a Colombian school (taken in Spanish), have lived as a Colombian within the Colombian society on their terms and observing the same lifestyle (making pesos, paying my bills with those pesos I've earned, eating my sancocho and observing local customs, I travel to Colombia, own a home there and am well familiar with the local idiosyncracy and vernacular (this meaning Cali, of course). So you can climb down from your high horses and quit putting people down.

The strata system has been discussed, explained and descibed ad nauseaum and you seem to be the only person who does not understand it. It's not unique to Colombia either, as was pointed out by another poster. It's necessary, I believe to make it possible for the people with suffering economies to be able to HAVE services. It takes nothing AWAY, it GIVES.

That there are some people who use the strata as some kind of nasty shorthand when putting down people is another thing. It becomes just another badly-employed word. As I have said before, perhaps people in Bogotá do that, throw the "stratum" at your face all the time, but at least educated caleños don't. They may refer to the housing poor people live as a barrio bajo or the neighbourhood as unsafe and low strata, but not to people themselves.

Mr. Hollywood, I believe you are surrounded by some snotty and racist people. Yhay does not mean that Colombia's main social disease is racism. It's as strata2woman says, unequal distribution of wealth.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

elmodefoque says on Sep 5, 2007, 11:19:

GEE, this is getting good, too bad i gotta go home.

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

juancegomez says on Sep 5, 2007, 11:20:

Leaving for lunch, but one last thing...

GiB; "You can not control how people talk about other people or keep them down. You can stop the states from subsidizing this type of behavior by having a estrata system."

So let me get this straight...the only thing you want is to abolish the use of the term "estrato".

Utility rates can be determined some other way, but the term "estrato X" has to go because it also carries negative social implications. Period.

Once again, fine. If that is the case, I have no problem with reducing the system to "subsidized utility rates" and "non-subsidized utility rates". Not at all.

You think that's a positive step, let's do it. Period.

"That is the wrong direction to bringing change and is what is why it has to go. Colombia is in a war for 50 years and Brazil is not."

Just one detail: the conflict began before the strata numbers even existed, as far as I can tell.

elmodefoque says on Sep 5, 2007, 11:21:

remember, be nice says the monkey

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

Swinn88 says on Sep 5, 2007, 11:22:

150 years after the abolition of slavery in Colombia

juancegomez says on Sep 5, 2007, 11:24:

Swinn88: I almost forgot, but I just saw the 3 earlier videos and they are indeed informative on current Afro-Colombian issues. It's a good overview.

Can't see the newest one right now, I'm on my way out, but will try it later.

Swinn88 says on Sep 5, 2007, 11:25:

Libertad en Colombia Fragmento 2

Tinto (Moderator) says on Sep 5, 2007, 11:30:

How did the "boom" happen on the backs of poor people? I'll bet a big portion of that boom is 1) a return to normal security (or better security) which unleashed pent up demand for cars, homes and domestic travel, 2) a result of high commodity prices and 3) a pretty strong economy worldwide in which foreign remittances have soared.

Swinn88 says on Sep 5, 2007, 11:31:

Africa in The Americas (Palenque San Basilio, Bolivar, Maroon Community in Colombia) A CNN Special.

Swinn88 says on Sep 5, 2007, 11:34:

The Videos Have lots of information. Please view them. Thanks JuanG.

Tinto (Moderator) says on Sep 5, 2007, 11:46:

Raising the minimum wage won't work if the government can't enforce the one they have now (your example above).

toneloc24 says on Sep 5, 2007, 11:57:

Swinn - Great videos. Here's the problem. Everyone's talking, no one's listening. Everyone here has THEIR own opinion of what's up. I'm pretty sure the videos tell a different story. Perceptions vs. reality.

I'm not gonna get too deep into this hilarious thread, as stated before. You can surely call shit, sugar, but you can't stop the smell. Strata systems, caste-like systems, economic disparity, racism, etc. should warrant excuses here? Even more hilarious are the justifications being thrown out. There ARE social implications associated with Strata 1 and Strata 6, OUTSIDE of just utility bills. It may have started out that way, but it is NOW ingrained into society and the culture.

People seem to prefer holding their nose from the smell, rather than dealing with the deeper issues, both economic disparity and deep-ingrained institutional racial discriminatory practices. Until then, there'll always be the kidnapping, violent crime, and cocaine issues. This is how the rich want it, this is how it is tolerated.

So keep watching your backs and your asses. It's the preferred future path of security in Colombia. And unfortunately, due to this, there'll always be FARC or some rebel group.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

Swinn88 says on Sep 5, 2007, 12:04:

Well said Toneloc.

Tinto (Moderator) says on Sep 5, 2007, 12:07:

Hilarious isn't the word I'd choose, but it is somewhat amusing that occasional travelers or fairly short term residents are certain they've defined the problem and formulated sure-fire solutions. Strong opinions are one thing, shouting others down, including long term residents and citizens of Colombia, is quite another.

Swinn88 says on Sep 5, 2007, 12:07:

See what the Indiginous must deal with!

Mr. Hollywood says on Sep 5, 2007, 12:53:

Desi, I NEVER said that racism is the primary social ill in Colombia. In fact, I totally agree with you that economic inequality is much worse. But the original poster set this up as an either/or situation and argued that their ISN"T racism in Colombia, which is just silly.

toneloc24 says on Sep 5, 2007, 13:08:

Tinto - I have no dog in this fight. However, being OBJECTIVE to the situation, and dealing Colombians of wealth, some comfortable, and some of little means, I can form an opinion. I don't employ these people, nor do I work for them, nor do I/would I invest $$$ with them. These are friendships, where money does not come into play. It stays this way by choice. And yes, I get to spend time there often, AND I get to leave.

I should care less about recognizing the problem, but I do (silly me), as there are people who don't have a voice, which is very dangerous. It's not MY problem to solve. Those that have means, have control of the wealth and media. Those that don't have means, nor a voice, there's FARC and the narcos, and now the paras for black market loans. It's a cycle. Where there is no voice, people will listen to anything. Colombia won't truly be safe, nor reach its potential, until this is at least addressed.

Uribe is temporary, I hope people realize that. Just like we in the USA are thankful that GWB is as well. This too shall pass.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

juancegomez says on Sep 5, 2007, 13:15:

Looking it up, the current strata system for household utility rates dates from 1984 (officially implemented nationally) to 1994 (unification of the classification methodology). In other words, the current strata system has existed for 23 to 13 years, depending on the interpretation.

Colombia's long reality of discrimination and exclusion clearly predates this system and all of its implications. Is stating this pretending that nothing is wrong, an endorsement of discrimination or trying to cover-up any smells? No.

I don't think saying this is ignoring the deeper issues, as toneloc24 calls them, but actually the complete opposite: the deeper issues lie beyond the word "estrato".

I may disagree about how often that word is misused, but I'm not denying that it does express discrimination and has negative implications. But the roots of this mess are not in the word "estrato", nor in any other particular word that happens to be in use.

The idea and the practice of dividing and discriminating poor people was, certainly, already ingrained in Colombian society and culture long before the words "estrato 1" or "estrato 6" ever showed up.

So I think we have to try to change how people think and act, and how the government thinks and acts as well, to resolve the underlying causes of those and other ills. People have to learn to respect each other, regardless of their differences. That also includes cleaning up the vocabulary, which is why I don't oppose changing the term "estrato" into something less susceptible to offensive purposes, but that's merely the tip of an iceberg.

Implicitly relating kidnapping, violent crime and cocaine issues, not to mention FARC, to the current use of the word "estrato" obscures the fact that those problems have a lot more to do with the underlying attitudes, actions and historical processes, which I'm completely in favor of addressing. That's a good part of why I'm in favor the Polo, for example, not in favor of Uribe.

strata2woman says on Sep 5, 2007, 15:50:

Thanks Juan for the explanation. Estrato is new word to me [circa 1960's], however it doesn't change the spirit of my post, that is, we, Colombians are a Social Status Conscious bunch, not racial "discriminarators" [my word].

We do not treat differently a person or group of people based on their racial origins and we do not denied their ability to move up or down on the economic ladder on the basis of race, color or national origin. However, poor Colombians of any color are treated differently and denied their ability to move up in our society because they are poor, nor because the color of their skin.

He dicho!

- "con sombrero vueltiao y abarcas de tres puntá"

morphus says on Sep 5, 2007, 16:49:

I Know a guy in Medellin that was born in strata 2 or 3 but now lives in strata 5. He still has friends and family in strata 3. What is he not suppose to talk to them because he's making a little more money?

junkyak says on Sep 5, 2007, 16:59:

elmo, whats CHUCHA?

wendell13 says on Sep 5, 2007, 18:09:

The United States of AMERICA . Does everyone see the name and understand it? That is why we are called Americans. I know this is a difficult concept to understand for some of you.

morphus says on Sep 5, 2007, 18:16:

Whats all the fuss? Colombians are free to call themselves Americans but they don't.

gabolicious says on Sep 5, 2007, 18:18:

My Goodness....

I agree with Morphus... Colombia is in America too... don't get me wrong I have said that Americans call themselves americans due to the lack of a word to name the people born in The United States... such as colombians, argentinians, and so on...

I mean Americans (born in the US) have the right to call themselves that way but every other person born in any country from Alaska to La Patagonia has the same right to do so...

"The new land of opportunities: Colombia!" ----- Mr Miguel_Clavo on PBH

gabolicious says on Sep 5, 2007, 18:43:

Por cierto Strata2woman... las clases sociales han existido siempre, es como si el humano hubiera evolucionado con ellas... siempre ha sido esa diferencia social muy marcada al igual que la cuestión de las razas.

Incluso durante la era precolombina ha existido eso, no es único de los colombianos, a mí en lo personal me parece muy difícil que se pueda erradicar una vaina así. Pero también sé de algunas personas que han podido salir adelante, claro ha costado trabajo pero al final lo han logrado (aunque son los menos). Tal vez la diferencia social no se pueda erradicar en una sociedad "no socialista" como la colombiana y hasta tal vez sea necesaria para cuestiones tributarias. Más bien, lo que se debe exigir a los gobernantes es que ayuden a las clases desprotegidas a tener, por lo menos, derecho a una oportunidad de salir adelante.

"The new land of opportunities: Colombia!" ----- Mr Miguel_Clavo on PBH

droble77 says on Sep 5, 2007, 18:51:

unitedstatesian doesn't seem to flow off the tongue, lol, so I guess we're stuck with American.

It is occasionally used in Spanish though, "estadounidense" but let's face it most people use a slang term. In Colombia, it's "gringo." In Cuba, it's "el yuma" as in yes, "3:10 to Yuma", the original movie, not the current remake, was a huge hit in Cuba way back when and the word has been used there ever since.

For what it's worth, if I'm travelling, the way I get around this is I ask "are you from the States" as opposed to "are you American" . . . or in Spanish I just mention "soy de Nueva York," because NYC has always been considered its own alternate universe even by other Americans. . .

gabolicious says on Sep 5, 2007, 18:54:

yeah maybe because "american" is shorter than "estadounidense" da pereza decir estadounidense... y vos sabés una cosa? me da pereza joder con esa vaina de "también los latinos somos americanos" para mí eso no tiene la mayor relevancia, pero no se confundan amigos gringos que América no son solo ustedes y por supuesto no son los ùnicos americanos... jajajajajajajajajaja


... I myself use "gringo" sometimes... =D

"The new land of opportunities: Colombia!" ----- Mr Miguel_Clavo on PBH

john_stark says on Sep 5, 2007, 19:01:

Colombians of a certain class all know each other and their families so it's easy for them to recognize a name and the city that the holder comes from. They'll also want to know where they went to school and college. It's a pretty small world. Nobody I know even inquires about the estrato maybe because it's a given. On the other hand my wife grew up in Strata 6 and sees no dishonor in living in Strata 4. In fact she was one the ringleaders when the barrio fought against getting the estrato level changed to 5. All it meant to them was higher bills.

wendell13 says on Sep 5, 2007, 19:06:

I guess it is like penis envy. Everyone wants to be called americans. jajajajajajajaja

gabolicious says on Sep 5, 2007, 19:11:

Not me wendell, I am latinamerican... and I am very proud of it... maybe some other latins do but not me dude... I am aware of my culture and I like to be called "colombian"... I DO have an identity... I AM COLOMBIAN!!!! ....

jajajajajajajajajajajaja

"The new land of opportunities: Colombia!" ----- Mr Miguel_Clavo on PBH

wendell13 says on Sep 5, 2007, 19:41:

Hey Gabo...I am confused by your profile. You say that you were born in Mexico and that you live in Mexixo City. You want to travel to Colombia. Have you been there before and want to return or have you never been there? Why do you call yourself Colombian?

goin_south says on Sep 5, 2007, 20:44:

junkyak... chucha ain't in su dictionario?

y, un mil gracias.

billyb says on Sep 5, 2007, 21:38:

Interesting videos JuanG, thanks.

Robert Jorge says on Sep 5, 2007, 22:19:

Chucha is also known as chocha. Chocha means pussy in English.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

john_stark says on Sep 5, 2007, 22:22:

The only other words in Spanish that you need to know are monda, joder and marica. Along with chucha that should do it.

Robert Jorge says on Sep 5, 2007, 22:33:

Capitan. The US only has "white/black racism"? Talk about not knowing what you are talking about.

And like GS said, Desi isn't even from the US. It isn't a secret that she is from a Scandinavian country.

And "most of your people don't know where their own country is on the map." Ok, I'll give you that one. Generally speaking, most people in the US are stupid when it comes to geography. As a matter of fact, I read a legit study from 10 years ago that ranked the US number 2 from the BOTTOM in the world, for geography knowledge. Mexico was number 1 - in other words, the only country that had more people on average, more stupid than Americans pertaining to geography knowledge. And before anybody takes offense, I am not talking about specific people but just averages. I, and many people on this site, are exceptions to the rule. We are on the right edge of that bell curve. But the country as a whole, on average, SUCKS when it comes to geography, current world event knowledge, and history - whether national or world history.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

junkyak says on Sep 5, 2007, 23:16:

oh ok. It was in the dictionary, but I thought it was slang

RussianFred says on Sep 5, 2007, 23:47:

The truth is most people in the US are NOT stupid when it comes to geography. They just do not give a shit about South America and the rest of the world. So who the f... cares if Colombia is in Asia or South America.

Colombians like most of the rest of the world follow America's lead. Racism is an American by-product. The only way to stop racism is thru true Communism, a class less society. This will never happen. I don't think the Colombians that live in America are racist becuase they are in the same boat.

Annual Drug Deaths: Tobacco: 395,000, Alcohol: 125,000, 'Legal' Drugs: 38,000, Illegal Drug Overdoses: 5,200, Marijuana: 0. Considering government subsidies of tobacco, just what is our government protecting us from in the drug war?--Ralph Nader

Robert Jorge says on Sep 6, 2007, 01:19:

RFred ... what? You are blaming all racism in the world, or "most of the rest of the world", on the US by what you wrote. Are you drunk? South Africa must be the fault of the US then. The genocide in eastern Africa, with Arabic Muslims slaughtering black Christians is the fault of the US. Why? Because you said they are following the US's lead. Some of your comments are just ridiculous. Actually, congrats, that is the *********st thing I have ever read here.

So Communism eliminates racism huh? I won't even waste time giving examples supporting how wrong that comment is." Communism classless". JAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAAJA Ok, and I got some lots, 30 miles east of Naples, FL I will sell you real cheap too. Give me a break RF. Please explain your last post better. I need a good laugh tomorrow when I get up.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

goin_south says on Sep 6, 2007, 02:19:

Rob, sale him the stuff 30 miles 'west' of Naples. lol

y, un mil gracias.

Leeroy says on Sep 6, 2007, 04:52:

People are more likely to ask what university you went to or what your job is to ascertain your "caste" than ask what estrata you live in. It's kind of a weird question.

elmodefoque says on Sep 6, 2007, 04:59:

"elmo, whats CHUCHA?" junkjak

dude, check out this video. Is homage to a chucha or "homenage a la chucha"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHYZaGC6bTE

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

gabolicious says on Sep 6, 2007, 06:17:

Hey wendell I left a message in your profile, check it out dude...

"The new land of opportunities: Colombia!" ----- Mr Miguel_Clavo on PBH

Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 6, 2007, 08:19:

GIB stop feeling sorry for yourself just because most people don't agree with you on the strata issue. Nobody is denying anybody the right to express themselves; on the contrary it's you yourself who likes to put down other people who don't share your opinions. There are plenty of people, especially foreigners in Colombia who walk on both sides of the street because they don't play along the pre-established rules; they are allowed to because they are not bound by the same invisible chains of peer pressure, social control, class society's unwritten rules. I'm one of them.

Who is trying to hush you down this time? I haven't, not even after you said that I was "beyond help", whatever you may have meant by that. All I'm saying that until you get married to a Colombian, start speaking Spanish as your home language, work in all-Colombian, all-Spanish work place, earn the same as the next guy at a similar job, pay your bills in pesos that you have earned, establish a home and a all-Colombian social network, educate your kids in that country, live the same life they live and on same conditions, then you have gained a truly significant insight to the way Colombians think and act, the whys, the hows, the whens. Multiply all that by a minimum of ten years and you'll be on your way of understanding the local culture.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

droble77 says on Sep 6, 2007, 08:23:

Damn GIB, that's pretty passionate for a currency trader. I didn't know you had a leftist streak in you. ;-)

Maybe it's been mentioned already, but I think it's important to point out: latinos in general see race differently than anglos, probably because they run the whole spectrum of skin color.

This is what's leading to some of the back-and-forth bickering going on in this thread.

Swinn88 says on Sep 6, 2007, 09:06:

RACISMO EN COLOMBIA

Swinn88 says on Sep 6, 2007, 09:16:

The Above Video are words from an Afro Colombian Strata2Woman. I Understand it is difficult to see racism from your POV but it is there and the people being discriminated against can see it very well. Look at some of the Videos I have posted please. They are mostly of Colombians telling there story. Take note. Listen and watch the video.

Swinn88 says on Sep 6, 2007, 09:18:

You will then see from a point of view that you never could have imagined.

Mr. Hollywood says on Sep 6, 2007, 09:57:

I'm curious how many, if any, of the FARC secretariat are Afro-Colombian?

Morrongo says on Sep 6, 2007, 09:59:

Swinn88 I find it hard to imagine anybody saying there is no racism in Colombia.If you are poor no matter if you are black or white you are up against it,skin colour is not an issue.The situation is improving, but there no overnight solutions.If you are poor and white, is the same if you are poor and black.However if you are black, you do have certain disadvantages seeking certain types of work.I can tell you numerous stories like your vid with white and black people alike. The situation too complex to summarise in a few words

Morrongo says on Sep 6, 2007, 10:06:

Yes there are Afro-Colombian in Farc, acting in the pacific coast areas....drug routes....etc

billyb says on Sep 6, 2007, 10:36:

Mr. H. I don't think there are any in the inner circle, but El Negro Acasio who was just killed was very high ranking and Afro-Colombian. (hence the name).

strata2woman says on Sep 6, 2007, 11:12:

- Nacer pobre es lo mismo que nacer indio, negro o de cualquier otra raza. - No tienes control sobre ello.

Mis intereses no van en raza sino en pobreza. La pobreza no discrimina. Quizas mi referencia de estratos y raza ha diluido la conversacion. No era esa mi intencion. Use estas referencias porque parece que muchos en este foro reconocen los terminos [defenir nuestra posicion social]. Dejemos a un lado nuestras diferencias y discutamos, sin ofender a nadie, la realidad de Colombia. - La arcaica nocion de clases sociales - basada solamente en dinero o tradicion, no raza. -

For those who want to focus their comments on racial discrimination in Colombia, more power to them, - Colombia is not USA. We have our own Civil Rights issues - Economic Disparity. If we are successful in our own Fight Against Poverty and Inequality, then I believe Racial harmony will be the by product of our success.

All of us in this forum can contribute in our own way to the New Colombia - The Total Abolition of Poverty.

- "con sombrero vueltiao y abarcas de tres puntá"

juancegomez says on Sep 6, 2007, 11:32:

I agree with billyb..."El Negro Acacio", Tomas Medina Caracas, was the commander of the 16th Front, but he wasn't part of the Secretariat, most of which seems to lean towards white or at least lighter-skinned mestizos, according to the pictures available. Even if there are indeed Afro-Colombian guerrillas and leaders (just as we can find in the Army, Police, or even inside paramilitary and drug trafficking groups), the top leadership seems to reflect the situation in the rest of the country.

Mr. Hollywood says on Sep 6, 2007, 12:06:

That's what I thought. I know there are lots of rank-and-file (read canon fodder) members of the FARC, AUC and ELN who are afro-Colombian but somehow I'm not surprised that the Secretariat is an all-white club. The more things change the more they stay the same, eh?

jaramillo says on Sep 6, 2007, 12:38:

Gringo; think you sometimes miss the point. I don't live in Colombia (like Desi) but I will laugh for a long time if you are going to pretend that you understand Colombia better than me (or than Desi for that matter).

Strata2 woman: Yes, poverty (economic disparity, or inequality, or whatever you wanna call it) is as much the enemy as racism. But to think they are disconnected is absurd. Being black reduces your chances, regardless of your economic situation. When two poor girls interview for a sales clerk position at a store recruiting girls with "buena apariencia", the chances of the black one are zippo. For some people the black girls never have buena apariencia. This happens across the board in the interior (Bogota, Medellin, etc.).

Juance; I reflected on the same point about FARC yesteday. Hell, the leader is el MONO jojoy.

billyb says on Sep 6, 2007, 12:56:

Kind of like that Who song, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss".

Swinn88 says on Sep 6, 2007, 13:35:

Well Said Jaramillo

strata2woman says on Sep 6, 2007, 13:38:

Have you noticed that in Colombia the best jobs go to those who have palanca? - by the way, if we are going to be talking about racial discrimination in Colombia, can we do it colombian-style: "indios are incluidos".

It looks to me, that we are trying to frame the racial issue american-style: White vs. Black, though lately the discrimination in the USA is done toward the latinos, with blacks also doing the discriminating. As I see it, race trumps the poverty issue.

To Desi kiitos for your imput, to GIB hand in there kiddo. Let's remember not to hang each other out to dry.

- "con sombrero vueltiao y abarcas de tres puntá"

Mr. Hollywood says on Sep 6, 2007, 13:44:

Discrimination against Latinos in Colombia?

Please explain.

Swinn88 says on Sep 6, 2007, 13:50:

how about white and non-white or no so white. it still boils down to the same thing Strata. Lets not try and Americanize it because if we study history Americans certainly don't hold a monopoly on racial discrimination. There is no American style of racial discrimination there is just racial discrimination. Sad to say but the reason why most race topics end in black and white is because whites are at the top of the food chain and blacks are the most easily identifiable people to discriminate against. In the USA, In Colombia, and most other places. Indio colombianos are included in the race topic. Lets not dumb the topic down.

strata2woman says on Sep 6, 2007, 13:50:

Please, spare me the patronizing attitude.

- "con sombrero vueltiao y abarcas de tres puntá"

Swinn88 says on Sep 6, 2007, 14:02:

It's funny...when we don't want to admit a problem like racism we slide the topic by and start talking about the evil gringos. The USA is the scapegoat on all things. That's just ridiculous.

strata2woman says on Sep 6, 2007, 14:14:

No, my friend, the USA is not the scapegoat and no, the gringos are no the evil ones, your words not mine.

Everything I learnt towards fairness, equality and social justice I learnt in the USA. I cannot let you pin that on me. However, you sir, have right from the beginning try to frame the issue of poverty on race. That's your bag nor mine.

- "con sombrero vueltiao y abarcas de tres puntá"

Swinn88 says on Sep 6, 2007, 16:05:

Not patronizing anyone so nothing to spare. Your Statement

"It looks to me, that we are trying to frame the racial issue american-style: White vs. Black, though lately the discrimination in the USA is done toward the latinos, with blacks also doing the discriminating. As I see it, race trumps the poverty issue."

Is an attempt to lessen what happens in colombia buy putting the focus on the U.S. According to your statement. The "In Gringolandia" Comment that was edited is also an attempt to reroute the focus of the topic. And Last "Colombia - Racism or Caste System" Is the topic of the forum that you started. So it apparently is your bag. I'm not here to fight i'm just here to educate. I'm here to show you and others that ignore the facts, that ignorance is in fact not bliss.

Remember Strata2 you started the topic of poverty and race. I just showed some video of Colombians telling their story. Once again lets not dumb this down, and please...lets not fight.

goin_south says on Sep 6, 2007, 16:14:

Hey, some of us have to work ;)
Looks like I missed 'class' today.

Well, did any 'new truths' come ringing through loud and clear here?
Or, same old stuff?
Some one, please......spare me reading this whole thing.

y, un mil gracias.

Swinn88 says on Sep 6, 2007, 16:24:

Your opening statement:
"In Colombia we do not deal much with Racial segregation as known in the states or in some places in Europe, here people are not judge by the color of their skin, but by the strata we live in. The lower the strata the least your chances are to advance in society. Aspirations to live a better life than our parents are not truncated because of our race but, because of our social status."

You followed with this: ( You happen to be incorrect The videos if you viewed them show the point of view of the persons being discriminated against).

"In Colombia most people are born, marry, and die within their caste. One is not allowed to live in a strata 6 or join the Country Club, not because of one's race but because of one's wealth. How many Colombians living abroad, have you met that doesn't tell you about their fincas, what strata they lived in or their last name, [it seems like last names in Colombia are a badge of nobility], to show that they were not poor in their previous lives. Being Poor in Colombia is a Bad Thing - Being of a different Race is Not!"

Then finished with this:

There is segragation in our neighborhoods, just like in the states or England, not because of race, but because of our poorness. Perhaps, we may not have to fight for our civil rights, here in colombia; but for sure we need to have the fight of our century for our economic rights.

So, I say to us Colombians "Let's not look at changing the World, Let's Change our Small Piece of the World - Colombia - " War against Poverty".

The ending was good. The rest was a great example of the slave owner not knowing that what he's doing is wrong because he does not know anything else. Racism is accepted if noone acknowledges that it exist.

jaramillo says on Sep 6, 2007, 16:46:

In Colombia "One is not allowed to live in a strata 6 or join the Country Club, not because of one's race but because of one's wealth."

Simply untrue. Nobody can prevent you from buying in a fancy neighborhood in Medellin, but many a seller would rather sell to someone who is "gente bien" and blacks are not. The code is unspoken but not for that less practiced. Also, as a black your neighbors are going to make you really comfortable. Right! With regards to the Country Club let me speak for El Campestre and El Unión in Medellin. Black balloting (what an appropriate name) people with too much melanin is standard.

jaramillo says on Sep 6, 2007, 17:33:

Let’s find an institution in Colombia in which advancement is presumably not tied to wealth. Let’s say the hierarchy of the Catholic church (I am, BTW, a practicing Catholic). If wealth makes no difference before God, we would expect the ranks of the bishops to be swelled with the blacks and indians that represent so many of the faithful (after all, you do not pay for the miter). Not so! The reason, I suspect, is that, like their parents, many of the bishops are racists. They might not think they are. They might not say they are. They would deny that they are. But THEY ARE. Of course, people will rationalize a posteriori, and they easily will fool themselves. Have you seen a black Jesuit in Colombia? A black Opus Dei priest? Not me. The appointments come from the Vatican but the question is, who do the Colombian bishops promote?

In soccer, players advance because it is too hard to deny talent in the pitch. If a guy scores, he scores and dammit if he's black! Besides, pe