Coffee in Colombia

utopiacowboy says on Jun 26, 2005, 21:52:

I think they've left your Big Mac out too long and it's starting to spoil, Londonmale! Isn't there some unafe playground equipment you need to inspect? How about a long walk on a short pier?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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miamimike says on Jun 26, 2005, 22:18:

Maybe, Maybe not Londonmale I remember back in 1989 when I was living in St.Ptersburg, Florida and Miami Based "Pollo Tropical"(Cuban cuisine) opened their first location in St.Pete's(actually the first one out of miami-surprised me why they didn't go to Tampa first because the Latin Population(their market then) was much larger there and still is)If you aren't familiar LM with pollo tropical its basically Grilled fast food-cuban style(and IMHO finger licking good).Problem was in the Neighborhood they opened it was 99.9% non-latino.All those Blue haired Retirees avoided the place like the plague.jaja WIthin 6 months they closed their doors, never to open again. The analogy, just because its new and a novel why is this a guarenteed lasting sucess?? Why do think Starbucks(Tenbucks)will be so sucessful in Colombia? You can buy a good, if not great cup of Coffee in most large Colombian cities much cheaper then at Tenbucks(starbucks). In Santa Barbara(north Bog.) there are a few coffee shops in the Mall making great coffee much much cheaper then Starbucks and tasting very good. Time will tell. Interesting to see how much a franchise will cost? I remember in 1995 when the first Harley Davidson Franchise was offered in Bogota and located in the Zona Rosa the Fee was rumored to be $250,000 not counting the Store, Tools, various types of Shop Machinery,Employees wages and benefits, HD Royalities, HD Clothing and the Inventory of Motorcycles of course. Leo Wernli of the Old Centro Intercontinental Dating Agency(then was located two blocks north of the old american embassy) was an interested potential Investor with extremely deep pockets and he related to a group of us he backed out as Harley at that time could not guarentee a set amount of Cycles monthly. He felt it was a security issue, at That TIME and backed out of the deal.. And Harley in Colombia did not have competition by another Famous motorcycle manufacturer(of aircooled american made v-twins engines) at that time. Not so with Starbucks-the competition is already there, coffee industry wise.. Easy to see a million dollars to open HD. Strarbucks won't be cheap! And don't count me as a future customer-I'll support the little Cafetero on the corner.

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utopiacowboy says on Jun 26, 2005, 22:25:

I think there's a franchise funeral home operation you should look into, Londonmale.

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flaleo says on Jun 26, 2005, 22:59:

good coffee? You can't get good coffee in Colombia! Maybe you can get cheap, just ground espresso and espresso-type drinks (e.g. cap., latte, etc.)... but for anyone who knows their coffee "good" coffee equals "fresh" coffee. And unless you know where and when your bean was roasted, odds are it's quite stale. Starbucks must warehouse their cooked beans for months! I suspect the bean you're drinking in Colombia is equally as old.

Would you eat any other 'organic' (e.g. earth-grown item) such as a bean cooked months ago and stored? "Good" coffee equals beans roasted within a week or two (if not best 2-3 days).

:^)

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miamimike says on Jun 26, 2005, 23:15:

Coffee I had in Santa Barbara was great when I was there Flaleo When was the last time you drank coffee in the Shops located in Santa Barbara BTW? What does Starbucks DO that justifies them to charge maybe two-three times what a small shop charges? I haven't had a cup of coffee made at/by the Juan Valdez but am looking forward to it.

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Gomezman5 says on Jun 26, 2005, 23:45:

Flaleo is correct Mike With the exception of Oma, gourmet coffee is NOT readily available in Bog. Of course you can name one of the bes upscale shopping malls in Colombia and find it there. But as a general rule, Bogota has fairly crappy coffee throughout. The best arabica beans from Colombia are exported.

Like any thing else, the best coffee in the world is located right here in the US. Whether it be Jamaican Blue Mountain, or Hawaii's famous yet costly Kona, or Sumatra dark roast, or an Italian roast expresso,nothing beats buying coffee right here in the US...The US has the largest variety of fresh beans, feshly roasted in the world.

One more thing,is it certain that Starbucks is actually going to Franchise in Colombia?? Starbucks has not franchised here in the US. All stores in the US are still corperate owned, so why would they franchise abroad, and not here? I think you need to go to their web site, because if they were going to franchise, I am sure there would be some info to that affect on their web site.

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miamimike says on Jun 26, 2005, 23:52:

Well. speaking for myself G5, Don't know the last time you guys had coffee at some of the different coffee shops in Santa Barbara but when I had it was very good. Friends(bogota) still routinely return for coffee there. And the Big Question remains, what justifies Starbucks charging 2-3 times as much as a small coffee shop charges? In Colombia at that. This shop(in St. Barbara) I went to freshly ground and brewed the coffee-had a good variety.Tasted great-unlike that scorched crap they sell here. What Technically would make Starbucks better then Juan Valdez COffee?

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Gomezman5 says on Jun 27, 2005, 00:11:

2 pointsts Mike I will agree that Santa Barbara has good coffee. But so what? Santa Barbara, and a few places in Zona Rosa, and maybe a few other isolated places on the north side, in a huge city of 7 million have a few decent coffee establishments. But that is kind of comical. Here is a country that is known for its coffee, and MOST places have pretty lousy coffee. I did not say that there way no place that good coffee, but the fact that you can only name one of the most upscale places in Bogota as a place to get a cup of good coffee makes my point exactly. Your typical restaurant, has that losy sello rojo or agula junk. Hey Mike, I know Bogota, and I can tell ya, their coffee at your typical restaurant is pretty miserable

And you can't begin to compare Juan Valdez to Starbucks, mainly because Starbucks has beans from all over the world. These beans all have their distinguishing characteristics in terms of body and acidity. But, Juan Valdez limits it roasts to Colombian beans. I would not exactly say that it provides a broad line of tastes for the true coffee drinker seeking gourmet coffees

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miamimike says on Jun 27, 2005, 00:34:

Gomezman--Many here in Miami talk up this Super expensive Coffee. I have tried the Beans-I buy my beans and then grind in my Capresso Coffee Maker which brews them immediately(recent thrift store deal-$10-cost like $200-$300 new)and this Machine is the Real Deal. It makes Great coffee.I find that the 8 O'clock brand of Colombian Surpreme(costing $3.59/bag 13.2 oz) taste as good as some $8-$ 10 bags of beans. The most costly is NOT always the Best.Lot of Variables we don't see! They caught a guy here in the US a few years ago selling Water from his garden hose as Top of the Line Bottled Water--earned big $$$ until he was found out! Maybe the same with some Coffee! I like the Mall at Santa Barbara so much and thats why I keep returning so often there when I go there and have always had good coffee. There may be other places, I just haven't looked. I went to Starbucks(ten bucks) once here in Coral Gables and it was my 1st and last trip-NOTHING made there to JUSTIFY the price difference INHO for their coffee. They have OK coffee but not for the $$$ they charge! Still, what are the verifiable technical differences that make Starbucks worth 2-3 times as much as other coffees, other then Mass marketing of their Name?

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flaleo says on Jun 27, 2005, 06:01:

Both Mike and Gomez, Sorry, but you missunderstood - all of those you mention are not fresh.

I made no mention of the quality of beans (yes, arabica beans are better, and yes I can imagine that the better quality beans are exported from Colombia) - but even the best beans be them Kona or Jamaican Blue Mountain or the best Colombian beans are not going to make good coffee if you cook (roast) the bean and then store it for months! The same goes for all the 'gourmet' beans consumers buy in fancy mall stores - if the beans were cooked months ago (even weeks ago) then it's stale food.

As for Starbucks, Mike you'll have to read my post again. I think they sell stale beans. I won't buy their beans, they're not fresh. IMO they only justify their premium through marketing/image, and that works well in the US (typically dumb consumers IMO).

I like fresh beans (and fresh food) - and I have yet to find any place in Colombia (Cali, Medellin - sorry I don't know Bogota) that sells fresh coffee beans - thus they all use stale beans (there's only fresh and not fresh, not fresh is stale).

Has anyone seen any establishment sell coffee that you know if fresh - you see the roasting machine or you know when the bean was roasted?

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Crazy4Cali says on Jun 27, 2005, 06:04:

isn't taking Starbucks to Colombia... ...something like taking sand to the beach?

I live near Seattle and I can throw a rock in just about any direction and hit a Starbucks store and as near as I can tell, what Starbucks sells best is attitude. Coffee is just an excuse.

There are plenty of places to get good coffee around here but people line up in their BMW's, ML350 Merc. minivans and Jags just to have come twit at Starbucks remind them how self-important they are. So if that's the case, maybe it'll go over well in Colombia.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jun 27, 2005, 06:16:

Don't feed the trolls Stop feeding Kerry's trolls.

Starbucks doesn't franchise ANYWHERE.

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Rubiazo says on Jun 27, 2005, 07:08:

Starbucks is GREAT coffee :P and Olive Garden is great Italian food, low in grease and full of delaticate flavor. and Red Lobster is great seafood, expertly prepared by seasoned professionals.

Oh yeah, and McDonalds makes an AWESOME hamburger. But that's mainly because the US has SUCH high standards for it's beef. And there's nothing like the array of fresh veggies that go on your Subway sub!

I've also decided to stop drinking Chianti, because Coca Cola is really a better drink all around. It's the 'real thing' you know. Plus, it's cheaper; what can I say, God Bless the good ole USA!

And finally, from now on all my porn will be stuff put out by Vivid, since they are the market leader and just make the most interesting, heat-packed, adventurous porn on the market.

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elmodefoque says on Jun 27, 2005, 07:15:

Kat, reading about porn inspired me to come up with a couple lines for a song i'm writing for you.
Eres fuego de amor, luz del sol volcan y tierra, por donde pasas dejas huellas. Mujer, tu nacistes para querer a ese corroncho de tu tierra.

PROUD ENEMY OF THE RIGHT WING!!!!!! THANK YOU!

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miamimike says on Jun 27, 2005, 10:24:

Flaleo..its difficult to know here in the USA or in Colombia really who does and who doesn't roast their Beans immediately before Grinfing. Unless you see it or you can smell it coming out of their coffee shop.I agree those freshly roasted Beans are best and then if the Coffee is Ground,perked and drank within 15 minutes before those aromatic oils evaporate. Most Large Coffee chains Like Tenbucks(starbucks)aren't going to pitch a Pot of unsold coffee after 15 minutes; they'll keep it around for a couple hours and sell it stale-may not be scorched but it will be flat.Or if they make only their best sellers and sell it during peak rush hours but you are right Flaleo, many(not all) American consumers don't know or care about the difference. Hey if you are into coffee, check out coffeegeeks.com--pretty good info anythig coffee related.

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maleorange says on Jun 27, 2005, 12:46:

the moderator at the top of the page is wrong Mars will be running starbucks in colombia so that is a franchise. I would like to repeat that 70% of mcdoanlds in the world are franchise. If you dont believe that then go to google and type in mc donalds franchise and see for yourself

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caslug says on Jun 27, 2005, 13:06:

In the US.. Starbuck ONLY allow franchise is w/ Ervin(magic) Johnson with his development in S. Central LA. I suspect they did that MORE for PR/Community purpose than money, they wanted a more exposure with African-American and it with Magic Johnson and his rehabilation of S. Central LA. Every other store in the US is company owned.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jun 27, 2005, 13:06:

Duh, Kerry Nobody argued about McDonalds. But you're wrong about Starbucks. They signed a marketing partnership with Mars, which gets them out of having to suffer months or years of "tramites" in Colombia to get their business started.

BTW, I know of one place in Bogota where they roast the beans on premises and sell them right there. It's called Cafe Don Pedro. Located at Calle 90 and either carrera 12 or 13, I don't remember. But it's on a corner on 90th below 11th. Don't know if there are other branches in town/

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caslug says on Jun 27, 2005, 13:34:

agreed tinto.. somehow i don't think the "franchisees" in 3rd world country are middle/upper middle class families that are like in the US. In Peru, BK/Pizza Hut/KFC are ALL operating under one company. The workers where the SAME uniform for example. The kind of money require to "franchise" is usually BEYOND the mean of ONE household in a 3rd world country, so COMPANIES have to step in.

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BlondeJamesBond says on Jun 27, 2005, 14:19:

Why persist? Tinto - asking Kerry to define what the word "franchise" means is a lesson in folly - ask him what his favourite colour of Lego brick is and he may be able to help

It really isn't worth trying to have an intelligent discussion with Kerry/Londonmale, when he has all the intelligence and argumentative substance of an illiterate 5 year old.

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miamimike says on Jun 27, 2005, 20:22:

Hollywood, I'll check that place out next time I'm in Bogota you mentioned, Cafe Don Pedro. There are undoubtably a few local roasters in Miami, with as much coffee as they consume here in Miami. Next thing is whether they would sell small volumes to individuals.Someplace here in Miami chocolate coats roasted whole beans and markets them as a Snack Food and they are pretty good.Always in the welding shop I go to here in a jar!

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Gomezman5 says on Jun 27, 2005, 20:29:

Thanks again Mr. Hollywood,,, I am going to have to try that cafe Don Pedro. Cl 90 con 12. I know where that is so I will definitey have to give it a shot. It is so close to Oma though. I always find Ona to be a safe bet for quality coffee and food....even if it is a bit pricey

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miamimike says on Jun 27, 2005, 20:42:

I would be curious to know how much like a 5 lb. bag of roasted beans would sell for so one could grind their own if they so chose to.I know at Hacienda Buena Vista in Ponce, PR. where they grow and process Puerto Ricos most famous Cafe, also they sell small bags of Roasted Beans (like 13.2 oz sizes)and it is good. None comes here to the mainland-the bulk goes to the Vatican. They have suppplied the Pope and Vatican for decades.

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Rubiazo says on Jun 27, 2005, 22:05:

We have a truck here that goes around to neighborhood restaurants selling cheap imported grey market COlombian coffee which is excellent. I had a cup at the local Salvadoran joint and was blown away, I told him it was just like the coffee I had in Colombia and laughed and explained the whole story to me.

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flaleo says on Jun 28, 2005, 03:16:

Mike, sorry, you're wrong While there are plenty of places around the USA that roast onsite for retail sales, there are none in Miami nor the three county area (to my knowledge). There was one, in S. Miami on US1 called Roasters and Toasters, but they had a fire and they no longer roast and will not in the future (other than at their warehouse).

While true, you want to grind the beans at time of brewing, and you don't want brewed coffee to sit... I only brought up the discussion point of fresh beans vs. not fresh beans, not how they are consumed.

You don't really want to grind beans upon roasting, it's better to allow them to stand for 24-36 hours. And it's not the oils that dictate the bean going stale, it is the gas that is realeased. Thus, while storing beans in a colder environ can't hurt, it's not essential. The key point for storage is to have a gas-saturated container (sealed containg, but not vacum sealed necessarily).

In summary, if you don't see a roaster in the corner of the store, and they can't tell you when the bean was roasted/cooked - assume it's stale. That covers all the chains and stores in discussion here.

As for examples of fresh bean retailers I've encountered on my travels:

Seatle and San Francisco are loaded with them, in SF you have Spinelli, Roastery, and Plantation. Minneapolis has the Dunn Bros. chain. Las Vegas has The Whole Bean. Tampa has a little store in Ybor City on the main street.

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Condorlisa Arroz says on Jun 28, 2005, 04:31:

Yea, starbucks makes all the money, higly priced low quality coffee, and the coffee farmers get nothing. BTW, ever tried Vietnamese Coffee? CA Montañas de Colombia

CA Montañas de Colombia

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Gomezman5 says on Jun 28, 2005, 11:19:

Flaleo...I agree with most of your post but You forgot about Chicago...we have many local roasters and even a few commercial ones that see coffee to gourmet restaurants.

Stewarts sell excellent coffee. Most of it is ground, but you can buy them in vacum packed per pot serving bags and it will taset like fresh ground....They have all varities..light to full body, and low or high acidity. Dark, medium and light roast.

http://www.stewarts.com/

The coffee and tea exchange sells excellent coffee...always fresh. Mostly whole bean. But they have an incredible assortment at prices that really are hard to beat. The have send the coffee anywhere

http://www.coffeeandtea.com/

One more thing, it is true that coffee is best ground before brewing. But that is a little misleading. Becasue if the beans are fresh (roasted within 2 weeks), and you grind them at them while fresh, and store them like Flaleo sets forth above, or vacume packed in packets or small cans (if in can it is fresh for a few days after opening), the coffee will not lose its aroma, or its flavor.

On the other hand, if you buy whole beans that are stale, then grinding them is not going to make a difference. If the beans loose their oil, aroma and flavor, it is still going to be a stale old lousy coffee. The best example is this one sold in big red bags in Chicago called 8 O'clock coffee. They sell their coffee whole bean. It's a lousy bean (robusta) and they are always old, yet people buy them and grind them because they are cheap. They think that just because they are grinding them, they are getting a good cup of coffee.

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miamimike says on Jun 28, 2005, 11:29:

Flaleo there are different small businesses that roast beans here in west miami-I am so told by some cuban friends of mine. Whether or not they sell retail I don't know but am going to look.I am aware of not letting coffee sit in the heated glass container-I transfer mine to an insulated steel Carafe so it doesn't sit on the burner and get scorched. Also those great Aromatic Oils evaporate after a little while. Thats what happens in the 7/11 stores they let that coffee sit for hours on the burner and then it has that burned, scorched smell.When one really does have a GOOD cup of coffee its hard to go back to the so-so run of the mill stuff.

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miamimike says on Jun 28, 2005, 11:38:

BTW, ever tried Vietnamese Coffee? No, have read about it only. Its supposed to be the up and coming Competition to Colombian Coffee.Is it good? Never seen it for sale here in Miami. Actually I had read that Brazil is the largest Exporter of Coffee worldwide. Same for Citrus-they send those Tanker ships full of Orange Juice Concentrate to the US and the Florida Growers hate it! Their little monoply is falling apart!

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kernow62 says on Jun 28, 2005, 11:42:

I thought Jacksonville was the coffee grinding capital of the US. ;-)

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Gomezman5 says on Jun 28, 2005, 12:12:

The number one nation is Brazil of course They supply more commercial grade coffee to the world than anyone. Colombia is number 2 and no where even approaches the amount of Coffee that Brazil produces.

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Gomezman5 says on Jun 28, 2005, 12:49:

I would tend to agree that Colombia only grows Robusta. Their climate allows them to do so. Someone asked me a logical question once. I was asked if Brazil is the number one Coffee growing nation, Why is their coffee considered inferior, and why is Colombia's considered a premium bean. I told him the answer was simple. As a general rule, Brazil grows robusta beans. Robusta is what is primarily used in instant coffee.

Colombia's arabica coffee is special mainly because it is light to medium roasted bean (except in starbucks) that is moderated in both acidity and body. Therefore, it is considered the an excellent "all around" coffee. I am now a hugh fan of the Colombian bean, i much prefer the Arfrican coffees such as Sumatra and Ethiiopian. But really it is all a matter of individual taste. Nothing more

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kernow62 says on Jun 28, 2005, 12:53:

Sumatra has moved? When?

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ColombianoX says on Jun 28, 2005, 12:54:

Vietnamese or brasilian coffee? YUCK!!!

There's nothing to start the day like a cup of 100% COLOMBIAN coffee!


ColombianoX

'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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kernow62 says on Jun 28, 2005, 12:56:

What about No es cafe? I mean Nescafe.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jun 28, 2005, 13:03:

Spinellis! Flaleo, you really gave me a walk down memory lane mentioning Spinellis in San Franciso. My old girlfriend lived a block away from Spinellis in Noe Valley and I used to go there every morning when I was in SF. That's some serious coffee.

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Miguel says on Jun 28, 2005, 23:50:

Gomezman? " would tend to agree that Colombia only grows Robusta"

Nope. Arabica. I rest my case.

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fosth says on Jun 29, 2005, 03:06:

Colombian compared to Brazilian Having spent some time in Chinchina and living on a coffee farm, my host was a guy who used to work for Cenicafe (Colombian coffe reaserch facility). I asked him why Colombians are so proud of their coffee and why it's superior to Brazilian.
He explanied that part of it is due to the way it is farmed and where it is grown. As most of us know Colombian coffee is grown in the Colombian andes and so has access to clean/cool air, rain and sun.
Brazilian coffee is grown at lower altitudes and generally more humid conditions.
The farming process is also different. In brazil the picking process is in general entirely mechanised with the beans picked off the tree by machines. In Colombia this is done entirely by hand and so only the ripe beans are picked. These are then de-pulped (by machine) and washed twice and bad beans removed. This too is done by hand but is being replaced by mechanisation. In Brazil the whole process is generally entirely mechanised. Factored with an inferior bean, it's easy to see why Colombian is better.
http://www.cenicafe.org

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flaleo says on Jun 29, 2005, 03:21:

Didn't forget about Chicago, I just don't know it. I'm sure there must be someone roasting beans inhouse somewhere there, but

Your post talks about local roasting - that's not the issue. Just because the bean was roasted locally doesn't mean you're getting it fresh. It might still be stored for weeks or months even if it's not being shipped long distances. And the term "gourmet" means nothing, zero, in regards to 'freshness'.

And while vacum packing might help keep moisture out and keep aroma in - it does nothing regarding freshness and actually allows release of gas from the bean.

Again, if you don't see the roaster machine in the corner, and then the clerk can't tell you when the beans were roasted, they're likely stale.

Some people don't care about feshness, some can't taste the difference. Not many can taste the diffenece if you use the bean to make a Cuban coffee or colada or frapachino - not thru all the sugar and milk. And then some people can't tell the difference between good scotch and bad scotch, or good and bad beer, or wine, or arepas :^)

But for those that know fresh coffee beans and have acquired the taste, Colombia is not a place to have a cup of joe... nor is Starbucks... nor is some 'groumet' shop.

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Gomezman5 says on Jun 29, 2005, 07:46:

Sorry miguel, I meant to say Arabica. I am fairly sure ALL their coffee is Arabica. But, I still prefer the African beans more

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Gomezman5 says on Jun 29, 2005, 08:04:

Flaleo.....I know these places have fresh beans !! Flaleo...for the record....My nick name in this office is"
"The cafenator". If I say a certain bean is Fresh, you can bet your life on it. I can look at it. I can smell it. I can put one in my mouth and chew it. And lastly, if ground and brewed, taste it. If it passes my scrutiny, count on it. I don't know anything about wines or much about Liquor in gerneral with the exception of Canadian Whiskey and beers.

Now the reason I listed the above too establishments is because I know their beans are fresh. What do you can fresh? If the beans were roasted in the last few weeks, they will still be relatvely fresh today. Look, freshness is just like human ageing, we don't get old over night, and beans don't go bad in a few days. Obviously the further away you are from the time they were roasted, the older and more stale the bean will get.

That said, if a fresh bean is packaged (bagged)and all the oxygen is removed, even gorund beans will maintain their freshness for months..many months. The removal of most or almost all of the oxygen is the key. There are four things besides "time" that will contaminate
a coffee bean. They are as follows:

Moisture
Oxygen
excessive light
foreign odors or scents

If you can eliminate a fresh bean from the above, you can save that bean for quite a while.---Many months..

Of course if you can keep it whole bean and grind it before brewing, you will have more of the oils aroma and flavor compared to one that has been pre ground

One more point:
The Coffee and Tea Exchange has some of the best freshly roasted coffee in the world. And their prices are rivaled by not one that I know of. Average price is about 6-7 dollars a pound. They also ship.
http://www.coffeeandtea.com/

For another variety..check out Intelligentsia...Outstanding beans--but pricey. http://www.intelligentsiacoffee.com/

Both are local roasters...(Chicago)

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fosth says on Jun 29, 2005, 08:09:

Keeping the beans in the freezer is the best way of storing them long term. Eliminates all Gman mentions

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Gomezman5 says on Jun 29, 2005, 08:19:

Fosth...You are correct..but only for long term You are correct about in that it is good for long term storage. But not every day. If you put it in the freezer or the fridg and remove the beans every day for use, the opposite will happen. You will allow the moisture due to the sudden temperature change to enter the bean and it will prematurely spoil the bean. Once you take the bean out of the feezer, you should store it at ROOM temperature in an air tight bag/jar.

I will share a real nice trick and it is cheap too. Buy those zip lock bags by Glad and others (the ones with the red thing that slides accross and seals the bag)You place the beans in the bag and as you close it, right before it gets to the end where it closes, squeeze all the air out of the bag and it will get rid of most of the oxygen. When the bag is comletely sealed, there should be no puffiness in the bag.

It works.

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kernow62 says on Jun 29, 2005, 11:02:

That last tip also works for packing clothes, you can buy big ziploc bags and put clothes in them and squeeze the air out, instead of buying the special storage bags. The clothes take up only a fraction of the room they otherwise would.

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flaleo says on Jun 29, 2005, 11:08:

Sorry, we dissagree What do you can fresh? If the beans were roasted in the
last few weeks, they will still be relatvely fresh today

No, it's no longer fresh. They cook the beans. After a week or so, they're no longer fresh. They are a week old. Same as cooking vegetables, or nuts, or meats.

I'm not saying they're bad - but they aren't fresh. You should use your beans at longest 7-10 days after roasting (after 24-36 hours wait from roasting) for optimal freshness.

As for removing oxygen, that's the OPPOSITE of what you want. Sure, you want to remove moisture, and thus removing oxygen does that. But you want a gas-saturated bag/container - which is the opposite of vacum packing! Any ground bean that is vacum packed is not fresh - it won't last months (regarding freshness). And some can taste the difference.

I know nothing of scotch and I can't taste the difference - but I know others that can. I can taste the difference of a bean I roasted at home in the last 3 days and a bean bought at a gourmet store that was roasted 2-10 weeks ago... coffee snob that I am ;^)

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miamimike says on Jun 29, 2005, 11:18:

Jim-bought about 10 of those Travel Bags at a yard sale new. Haven't had a chance to use 'em yet-look nice and have 3 sizes. Hey, on Surfing, Why not open a Water SLide at Monserrate??---World's Largest Water Slide-you could incorporate "Surfing" as the mainline ride! HaHa!

Gomezman-thats a good post on the Coffee-I may try those sites since they ship the beans.Do they have those Chocolate Coated Roasted Coffee Beans floating around Chicago??

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Gomezman5 says on Jun 29, 2005, 11:30:

Flaleo, you are %100 incorrect. Oxygen is bad..read below If you check out every web site.....you will not find ONE that says oxygen is good. Not one. You do all that you can to prevent misture from entering your beans. But you never use oxygen as a means to remove mositure or prevent moisture. Where did you ever get this info. I think you better read the links below:

1 http://www.coffeereview.com/reference.cfm?ID=212

2 http://www.arabicas.com.au/hints.htm

3 http://www.kyycoffeeinc.com/roasting/
The Enemy of Coffee is Oxygen. When coffee is roasted, there is a considerable amount of carbon dioxide (and aromatics) released for the next 4 to 24 hours. So much gas is released that a sealed container of freshly roasted coffee may approach two atmospheres of pressure. As a result, coffee packed for shipping is often "aged" until the carbon dioxide gas has dissipated enough to actually enclose the beans in a container. In the mean time, oxygen is attacking the coffee beans and degrading the flavor. If left exposed to open air, roasted coffee beans will markedly lose their freshness within three days. The roasted beans are undergoing noticeable aroma and taste degradation before they are ever packaged.

4 http://www.magiccitycoffee.com/id16.html(they sell great coffee too!
"Oxygen is the mortal enemy of coffee. Right after roasting, coffee begins to oxidize, which starts destroying all the chemical compounds, or more to the point, all the wonderful flavor you would expect in a cup of specialty coffee."

5 http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:YeLUt-pJxjIJ:www.lucidcafe.com/glossary.html+coffee+and+oxygen&hl=en
Defines insipid coffee:

Oh well

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kernow62 says on Jun 29, 2005, 12:31:

I don't know a thing about coffee so please excuse this question if it is ignorant.

When making tea it is important for the water to come to a boil but not sit on the boil, then the water must be quickly poured over the leaves in a warmed pot and the leaves agitated. I also use a tea cosy even in Florida to keep the temps up. The tea must sit a certain amount of time depending upon leaf etc. but not too long.

What are some of the finer points of making coffee? I have only ever made it in a French press so am curious as to what is proper.

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miamimike says on Jun 29, 2005, 13:04:

Jim-seems to be some debate as to what is proper.. but freshly roasted and correctly packaged beans is paramount, even grinding. My first Machine(purchased 15 years ago) , a Toshiba Combo-grinder,brewer was a 1st generation machine.Made pretty good coffee but left room for improvement. The grinder even has a lot to do with the end product.The early models had a Wing Grinder that chopped the beans into large pieces but that was about it(also sounded like a vintage DC-3 Plane revving up for takeoff). Those little brAun grinders they sell for $12 or so are wing grinders. The More expensive type grinders, as found on my new Capresso Combo Grinder/Brewer is a Burr type grinder(best) and you can CONTROL the size of the ground bean from course to fine *Important for the strength of Coffee. My machine has a Charcol Filter in the water Resovoir but I don't use it as my water is already filtered(the charcol filters are also expensive) I use very cold water for a complete brewing cycle.This machine I have is something else--controlled by a computer chip-you can play with grind settings and less or more water for color/strength. You can really dial it in for exactly the color/strength you want. Takes some experimenting to get what you want in a final product spot on.I don't use cold refrigerated beans in my Machine as the cold moisture in the beans clog the feeder channel with sticking residue.The Manual BTW, states" Coffee stores do not store coffee beans in the freezer or Refrig; Coffee beans will stay fresh for several weeks as long as you keep them in a dry, dark place(no, you cannot store them there Elmo)Farther, Capresso says "Its the ground coffee that loses aroma rapidly.Just a few of the things to consider IMHO only.

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kernow62 says on Jun 29, 2005, 13:39:

I will stick with tea.

I purchased some of the plastic storage bags too Mike, Target was closing them out $1 for 3 large bags. I promptly shoved as many sweaters as I could inside and squeezed the air out, brilliant, now I have more room in the closet for my wife's clothes, and the closet isn't tiny it is 7 feet by 9 feet.

At least she doesn't complain that she has nothing to wear.

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miamimike says on Jun 29, 2005, 14:02:

Hey Jim, check out this Web Site many tidbits of Info on Colombia(don't let the lasik eye surgery link throw you)shows that Don Pedro's Roasted Coffee Store, Cigars, Malls ect.

http://www.lasik-eyes.com/lasikColombiaLinks.htm

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flaleo says on Jun 30, 2005, 14:56:

I never said oxygen is good (read my words).

I said removing all gas is not good. Oxygen is one gas. Removing all of the oxygen also removes all of the gas and allows the beans to then further lose their gases - but it does indeed remove moisture... so you have a tradeoff to consider.

So, the benefit of removing oxygen is to remove the moisture, but oxygen per se is not the enemy of the beans (like with wine). But there are other methods for doing this - like with an opened bottle of red wine.

Anyway, the best thing to do is not store the beans (for more than 1-2 weeks) and instead always use freshly cooked beans.

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kernow62 says on Jun 30, 2005, 16:06:

Mike, thanks for the link. I liked the article by Marquez about Clinton. I wonder if he would have found W. a learned and erudite dinner companion?

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Miguel says on Jun 30, 2005, 23:58:

Yeah I just read it and enjoyed it as well.

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quindioman says on Jul 1, 2005, 00:11:

grew up surrounded by coffee but i never really got too much on that particular drug (it's always the legal drugs that i don't want).
I do know what it's like to get pelted in the face by the beans (freshly picked off the banches) in the midst of a full blown "coffee" fight.
I don't know whether the Brazilian ones might hit harder or leave a nasty aftertaste on my cheeks...the beans themselves have asurprising sweetness to them when the shell is opened tto reveal the slightly fleshy bean...i sometimes get carried away.

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