Codependency

mrgizmo says on Jun 6, 2005, 08:24:

In any culture... there are people that will dependent on you IF YOU LET THEM, you have to have a SPINE and say NO. Even animals will stop hunting if you get them used to being fed. Again, it's not the culture it's YOU. You have to set them straight
As far as people hanging out at her house I'd say yes, it is a Latin culture as well as dropping in without calling first.

Behind every successful man, there's a nagging woman

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N2Aquatix says on Jun 6, 2005, 08:35:

Free Ride Without calling??? People don't even get in my door if they don't call first. I hate that crap! There you are knocking out a piece and some moron stops by because he's bored. You have a good point about the animals and the hunt. I agree, but I'm just trying to do the honorable thing when it comes to providing for her family. Thanx for the advice. I think when she realizes that it's our money, as opposed to my money, then she will probably not be so quick to give everyone a free ride.

Jay

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Miguel says on Jun 6, 2005, 08:38:

N2 I would like to offer some insight, but it would be helpful to know a bit more about the "history" of your relationship. PM me or post it here.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 6, 2005, 08:39:

I love people popping just for a chat, i like to have people around moi.:-) ♥

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 6, 2005, 08:48:

post it here so you'll get help from more people with the same effort:)

I love to have people stop by without having sent them an engraved invitation every time...a phone call before is just to ensure that I'd be at home, otherwise it's ok not to call first. Just don't wake me up from a siesta!!!!!!!

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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N2Aquatix says on Jun 6, 2005, 08:50:

Miguel Hey Mikey. Well, when we first met I gave her a debit card so she would have access to my bank account. It was a measure for the future to insure that she would be taken care of in times of need. At first I told her to go once a week and withdraw 100.000 COP for personal needs. There were some situations where she needed more for various reasons, all of which I do not mind. Time went on and soon her relatives started to quit working and instead just hung out with her eating all the food and so forth. Now it's up to 300.000 COP a week because nobody works anymore and they all just stay there apparently because they know that I will not let her go without food, shelter, electricity, personal items, ect. I really don't mind helping out, but it's kind of frustrating because now when I call her there's so many people talking in the background that I can't even hear half of the time.

Jay

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 6, 2005, 09:00:

:-) ¦♥♥♥ That was beautiful GIB *snif snif*
I am astonish!

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ElCheAmericano says on Jun 6, 2005, 09:10:

Damn man Nobody quiting there jobs on my behalf, its nice to help BUT there's a limit to everything. I would go freaking nuts if I was you. I dont blame your girl so much as the family for kinda taking advantage of the situation. I kinda understand if she was dirt poor, but you saying that people in her family have quit there jobs presupposes that there was a source of income and now that source of income is you. And from what I understand jobs are not relatively easy to come by in Colombia so thats putting more pressure on you to keep the funds coming. If I were you I would give your girl a paypal debit card that way she can only take out whatever you transfer into the account. But then again this might defeat the purpose of trust. Ahhh What do I know.

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viewpoint says on Jun 6, 2005, 09:15:

GIF's advice is good including cutting back the payments to something representing assistance for her living expenses. Never once was I ever approached by my girlfriend(s) family asking for financial assistance but I found many things that made sense for me to provide assistance for without being asking. Like helping with tuition payments for my GF's sister when the family has no more finances to pay. Paying part of the grocery and rent money for the family when times were very difficult. Assisting with legal expenses for an immigration attorney and some airline tickets.

Never once did anyone ask me but they didn't need to as I knew how bad things were financially. What a good feeling it gave to me knowing that the help I gave made the difference between someone close to me going to school or not going and having a roof over their heads and enough food to eat well.

I guess from your post what would bother me is that you don't want to allow a situation where your GF becomes a conduit to other members of her family requests or demands being channeled to you. It can and will get out of hand with each passing day, week and month.

GIB is right in his advice in setting limits to preserve your relationship with this woman. Yes in the western countries some define this as "codependency" but in Latin America they call it "sharing". At the same time I was providing some assistance for my GF's family I saw the same kind assistance coming from the two brothers of my GF's mother who also were also helping with rent and food expenses during a difficult period. My GF's mother had too much pride to ask for anything but sometimes a person wants to help with reasonable assistance when you see people pulling together working so hard for so little trying to survive and provide the basic necesssities of life.

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caulfield2 says on Jun 6, 2005, 09:25:

This is the classic dilemma for a gringo.

How do you do demonstrate trust monetarily without being too "trusting," so to speak.

I would absolutely limit the amount to the needs of her direct family, which, in the case of my wife, was just her mother.

The more you open the cash spigots, the worse things will be for you when she comes to the U.S. If you take the idea that you will support an entire extended family out of the equation RIGHT NOW, then you have a chance.

We always get into these discussions of "good girls" versus "Green Card Girls" and there are always plenty of men who proudly say how their significant other has never asked for money...perhaps has even paid for phone calls, sent gifts, etc. They offer this as proof of "true love." A lot of times, it's simply the man almost forcing the woman to beg, and that's beneath the dignity of 90% of women, whether they're in the US, Colombia, it doesn't really matter.

What's the average salary for a woman your girl's age in her city in Colombia? That's a pretty good starting point...because when you start giving 2X-10X that amount, you're heading for problems. Everyone else wants to take advantage of the situation, and they will if you let them.

I can understand your fiance/wife/GF taking English classes and quitting a low-paying job so she can better prepare to live in the U.S. It's always a good idea to take driving lessons as well, but when you start providing for extended families, then you're really in a situation that won't have a happy ending. You will tolerate it for X amount of time and not say anything, growing more and more disenchanted with the "disrespect" or you will have it out with your girl and potentially risk the relationship.

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spigrimace says on Jun 6, 2005, 09:31:

Think a little bit man "when we first met I gave her a debit card so she would have access to my bank account"

Please read that a few times and look at all the trouble you are just asking for. It just screams rob me blind.

Her family is Bive. Try a trick: At the next family function, tell them all including your sweetie that you met a group of 4 kids without parents that you have a soft spot in your heart for because they do odd jobs for you and don´t ask to be paid and you are currently giving them $300,000 a week to help them out (or if you´re abroad try the equivelant in dollars, euros, etc. I bet they´ll tell you that´s too much, it´s not your problem, be careful, etc. They´ll come accross like "uh-oh" someone´s moving in on their gravy train.

I´ll take the Judge Judy advice that sharing a bank account or credit card when you´re not married is just plain stupid.


As far as minimum wage which typically a non-professional works for, it´s $358,000 a month plus health insurance & pension. You´re $300,000 a week pays for what almost 4 people will make in a month.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 6, 2005, 09:34:

I hate if my husband has to send money to family, I am a bit proud about that, and I am glad my family doesn't need his help. we always send presents but that's all. when I go to Colombia I hardly spent cos they paid for me. I expect I am lucky. I think N2 has to set a limit otherwise you will be the chicken of the golden eggs, Is alright is she wants to help her mom and dad, but the rest I think are a bunch of Mantenidos and you can't tolerate that.

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ElCheAmericano says on Jun 6, 2005, 09:47:

Personally I send my girl 100 US every 2 weeks. If she were to ask for more all she would get is my LiL John impression.

WHAT, WHAT, YEAH, OK WHAT, WHAT, ETC, ETC.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 6, 2005, 09:53:

Che Or you do the old trick, of moving the telephone cable or squashing a foil paper so you pretend that there is an interference on the phone, HELLOo, I can't hear you, What, there is a hissing sound sh**7&%46,.....call u later ;-) NEVER FAILS

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miamimike says on Jun 6, 2005, 09:53:

Never Never Never give money to someone you do not know very very well. Your statement "Ever since I started dating my Colombiana, she has become the most popular person in her family" How in God's Name could you give somone Access to your Bank Account without knowing well their background, how trustworthy they are?? I would cut the funds ASAP(not a dime)until I knew this Lady much better. A friend of mine in Bogota was sending a couple hundred dollars a month to support the "Sick Mother" as it turns out, no sick mother but he went on from the start about what a wonderful trustworthy person she was.She was using the Sick Mother Money to pay off her Mastercard credit bill. I mean here in the States, would anyone give another person access to one's bank account if they just met them?? Of course not! Why would someone in a foreign land be any different??

On Sept 17, 2008: Senator John McCain said, as he had many times before, that he believed the fundamentals of the economy were "strong."Hours later he backpedaled, explaining that he had meant that American workers were Strong.

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ElCheAmericano says on Jun 6, 2005, 10:00:

KAT With the quality of most phone cards I dont even have to fake the interference, they usually cut me off every few days.

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Albatross says on Jun 6, 2005, 10:06:

Liquor Up Front... Poker In The Rear. If you're playing a poker game and you look around the table and and can't tell who the sucker is...
it's you.

- Paul Newman

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Caballista says on Jun 6, 2005, 10:24:

Lost Card Tell her that you did lose your card at the gas station; change your card number and do not give it to her again. Send her the money you want to send, and if she wants to share it with the rest of her family, fine. I bet you she will not. Case closed.

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N2Aquatix says on Jun 6, 2005, 12:04:

Thanks Well, I have to say for the record that the first time we met in person we had already been conversing for quite some time. E-mailing and talking on the phone in pretty much the same fashion as most of the women that I have met here in the states for the past 5 years or so. She actually never asked me for money, I just provided the means because I saw the need. I also wanted to make it very clear that she was my chosen one and as such she would be taken care of. I would ask her if the amount I had in mind was sufficient and she would always say yes, but I could tell from the tone of her voice if it actually was enough. How her family came into the picture was probably the sharing thing that one of the previous posters mentioned. I can hardly blame her for sharing with her family. I have spoiled her rotten because I love her and want her to enjoy life as I do. I live a pretty good lifestyle for the most part so I want the same for her. She probably began feeling guilty walking around in front of her family talking on a cell phone that is so new and high-tech that it can make mpeg movies. I also stressed to her that she was absolutely NOT going to work, as my previous marriage was somewhat of a career war. She may have mistaken this to mean that now that I am on the scene nobody needs to work anymore. Oh well, now you all know a little bit more about the situation. Oh yeah, I almost forgot to mention that she is from a family that doesn't have very much so this is probably all new to them. Anyway, thanks for the advice and insight. ;)

Jay

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caslug says on Jun 6, 2005, 12:26:

If u r no problem w/ her family asking using her.. as a gravy train, then cont. sending the money w/ a smile. But as a previous poster mention, if you're not happy w/ it BUT cont. doing it. It'll eventually eat at you until you snap one day w/ her. Also consider that if she's in love you, she may feel guilty by withdrawling more than the orignal amount(100k), but she can't stop because her family "pressure". Their guilt is stronger than her guilt to you.

Another gave excellent suggestion on putting only the amount that you want her to withdrawl in the account(ie, 100K) per week. In this way, she has a perfect excuse to tell her family "no mas" and you can simply tell her that is what you can afford. Doubt she & her family w/ think any less of you. Afterall, before you came along they got "nada" for free and if they make a big deal out of it and try to make you feel guilty...Then, is that the type of girl and family you want to be involve w/?

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caulfield2 says on Jun 6, 2005, 12:37:

Just be very careful with the "chosen one" comments, lol. I understand what you're trying to say, but it's not something you would say about another woman you were dating in Canada or America, is it? It sounds like something from the Eddie Murphy movie "The Golden Child."

I think you're trying to let her know that she is THE ONE and that you're not interesting in anyone else, Colombia or otherwise. OTOH, don't make it seem as if she had no choice, like you CHOSE her and then the rest was destiny/history...were you dating or talking/e-mailing other women, then you decided it would be exclusive with her and that you would then send money to "seal" the relationship, so to speak?

I know this has been mentioned 100's of times on posts like this, but under what circumstances in the U.S. or Canada would you ever give your GF access to your bank accounts? We (gringos) have to play the White Knight and charge into these situations and perhaps feel guilty because we have money, but sometimes the consequences of coming in and then out of her life might be worse...you've conditioned her to a certain lifestyle, but what happens if you break up? What if she had quit a job (at your request) then you decided things weren't going to work out? Would you feel responsible to "take care of her" until she got a new job to replace the income? A new boyfriend?

It gets very complicated, both personally and ethically. We can all understand the concept of wanting our GF/wife/fiance to have the best things...to feel bad if they don't or are truly in need...but financial support can take the relationship in a direction you don't want it to go, where there is no "equality" between the two of you. Maybe you don't want an equal...? I don't know enough about your situation.

Can you give her the same amount of money in American equivalent dollars every month when she comes to the U.S.? That's another important factor...you might want her to stay home, but she's going to be like a baby the first two years and need all the time and support she can get from you. She might enjoy the money/allowance, but what she will need the most is your help in adjusting.

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adrimm says on Jun 6, 2005, 12:40:

Agree w Tinto and GIB 200 USD is more than enough for her to supplement her life with comforts. I think that you should help the family buy a place, IF you marry your GF. Cut them off and tell them you will go 1/2 on buying a place instead as it would be a wiser investment. If you are doling out the $ then you sure as hell can have some input as to where it is going.

I've heard that handouts from expat members are an enormous problem for many developing nations becuase in some areas people can live better off of hand outs than actually working (becuae wages are so low) and some the employer companies cannot sell their goods for enough $ to be able to pay workers more than they get as handouts.

If they think that you are Mr. Money tell them that you have limited your spending becuase you are saving for something (ie house) at home. Tell them in COP how much a house costs in your area... that should bring home the fact that even tho you earn plenty of $$ your costs also cost plenty of $$. I think it is a real lack of pride on their part.

Not to sournd paranoid but in addition to the above you are putting yourself and your GF in a bit of danger. I'm sure word has gotten around about the loaded sugar daddy who sends them money. Poor barrios have more than their share of "problems", and if the they are poor buy Colombians standards...well... What happens when you visit Colombia? Someone may be very interestd in mugging you or worse. What about your GF? Having "access" to money can make her a target too.

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N2Aquatix says on Jun 6, 2005, 12:41:

Will She Leave Them? Thanx Caslug. I think that maybe this is just the first time that they all have not had to worry about where the next hot meal is coming from, and also the first chance to actually acquire something nice for theirselves. I don't mind sending that much down there every week because honestly that amount of money makes more of a difference in their lives than it would in mine. I guess I was just curious about the cultural significance, but you all have cleared most of that up for me. My only remaining question is this: will she be able to leave these people to be with me here in the states? She insists that she will as long as we visit them 2 or 3 times a year which is no problem. I'm sure that she will address the money issue when she realizes that it's coming out of her pocket too. At least she will adjust it accordingly.

Jay

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N2Aquatix says on Jun 6, 2005, 12:47:

Business I like your suggestion Caulfield. That would be a better long-term solution. I thought of helping them to start a business, but I don't know what would work down there. Any ideas on that one?

Jay

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miamimike says on Jun 6, 2005, 13:48:

To add more... I have NEVER seen one of these situations since I have been going to Colombia since 1994 where it worked out OK. That is to say-where the Person living in the US, Canada or Europe was sending/giving money to a woman in Colombia.The Woman/recipient and her family RARELY IN THE LONG TERM EVER APPRECIATED THE DONOR. Short term sometimes but never in the long term. Only my humble opinion of what I have observed in the last 10 years or so.Same for the DR(dom.rep)Each to their own.

On Sept 17, 2008: Senator John McCain said, as he had many times before, that he believed the fundamentals of the economy were "strong."Hours later he backpedaled, explaining that he had meant that American workers were Strong.

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N2Aquatix says on Jun 6, 2005, 14:08:

We'll have to see Wow!!! I thought everyone on this site that was dating a Colombiana but living in a different country supplemented their woman's lifestyle. I also have to tell you that I have always spoiled women here in the states, and none of them ever really appreciated it until it was taken away. With that being the case, there's only two possible outcomes:
1)If she appreciates it, then she will be the first woman who ever has and will have proven herself to be a worthy lifetime partner.
2)If she doesn't appreciate it, then she will have proven that she's no different from any other woman and as such, no special catch.
So far she seems to appreciate it, so I guess we will have to see how it goes from here. Philosophers will tell you that the measure of a person is how they deal with blessings and/or gifts. This is really no different, so I guess I should be glad that she spends the money on her family instead other more frivolous things.

Jay

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miamimike says on Jun 6, 2005, 14:22:

Two Buddies of mine payed everything for things like the... womans real estate taxes(usually in arrears for a few years) school tuitions, groceries, ect. Wish I could say I have seen the long term appreciation but I haven't yet.Both these guys are divorced.The Langauge barrier was killer in one case not the other. On the privacy deal-americans, canadians and many northern europeans have a different privacy barrier then Colombians or the latin culture in general.Usually our personal privacy barrier is like two feet and if someone invades our barrier we feel umcomfortable. One of my buddies who recently divorced his Colombian wife used to come unglued when he returned home and upon entering his Master Bedroom he would find his Wife and her two teenage sons(16&18 yrs.) all sprawled out on his Bed watching TV. Freaked him out-since they both had their own bedrooms with their own TVs but had to go to his bedroom to watch his;in the end this became a factor contributing to his Divorce.

On Sept 17, 2008: Senator John McCain said, as he had many times before, that he believed the fundamentals of the economy were "strong."Hours later he backpedaled, explaining that he had meant that American workers were Strong.

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Diggs says on Jun 6, 2005, 14:49:

N2 LOL !!! this reminds me when I was "dating" my gringo. I have been married to him for 13 years now, and that is exactly what he did in the beggining, he sent a credit card actually and I have to admit that I was the one who took advantage of the situation and got out of hand, next I knew he closed the credit account and told me he had lost his copy of the card and had to do so, after that he would only send me the money he deemed convenient to send, I soon understood that it was wrong of me doing so, and that if he was helping was because he wanted to, not because he had to...it is ok for you to help out but don't let your girlfriend's family take advantage of your packet.
In Colombia we value the family and we love to be close, we rely on each other and that is what makes us so close... I left my family as I said 13 years ago,I love my husband, but at times I blame him for being so far away from my family, after all this time I still sometimes get depressed for being away from my country and family, before we had kids we used to go every Christmas, but now we have 3 kids and the airfairs are getting more expensive, if I want to visit my family I have to work and for the past 6 years we have been going every other year...your girlfriend will leave her family just as I did, however she will need your support and you will need to be very patiente and understanding with her, the change of life is very drastic, the people, the culture, language even the food is all different here, while she gets through all the transition it will be very difficult for both of you, I speak of course from my experience, I was about to quit my marriage and go back to Colombia after just 2 years into the marriage, thank God my gringo is an exelent person, he understood and was very patiente, after all this time I am not used to living here but I have a great husband and I am happy with him and my kids, of course I would be HAPPIER if I were closer( in distance) to my family.
Good Luck !

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Brians says on Jun 6, 2005, 15:08:

I have to tell you I am very generous with the women I have dated from anywhere. However the moment I felt like I was being taken advantage of that was it. The funny thing is the reason I love my fiancee from Medellin so much is that she wants to try to pay for everything. I mean she doesn't have any real money and the plane to Bogota for interview and hotel and medicals etc..She is hitting her savings account etc.. I tell her to stop and let me pay. She tells me is ashamed to ask. I think this is so nice and something I am not so used to. Anyway I have since sent her all the money and told her not to pay for anything anymore. However if she was calling and asking for this or that I probably never would have even asked her to marry me.

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lpdiver says on Jun 6, 2005, 15:43:

I support my mother -in-law and her husband. My wife and I send her $150.00 US ever month to six weeks and it provides all her food and the propane for cooking it also.

The brothers and sisters are very good about only asking for help if truly needed. The nieces and nephews are another matter. My Paisa is very careful with "our" money.

T

"cook some rice!"

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expatriate says on Jun 6, 2005, 18:50:

This is the nicest thread I've ever read on PBH. I especially liked miamimike's and gringoinbogota's comments.
I moved from California to Cali last year, and now have 8 in-laws and their kids around. All are pretty poor. When I am alone with one of them at a time, each will say not to give anything to their brothers and sisters, and that the family members should make of their lives what they will. Great idea.
One sister hasn't bothered to work for 15 years because another sister started helping her during a "temporary unemployment". Some of the family are lazy and good for nothing, and some work hard and still have next to nothing.
Another factor is that the whole family is always going to be poor because any cash they get ahold of does not go into a savings account, a house payment, etc., but instead goes to the local casino.
So, over the years, I've concluded that if I am feeling generous toward the wife's family, I can give, but definitely NOT cash.
Some suggestions for giving are:
1.) Meet them at the grocery store after they have been shopping for half an hour, and pay for a shopping cart of groceries.
2.) Pay for a school's tuition. Deal directly with the school! Do not give them the money to give to the school.
3.) Invite them over for meals.
4.) Give gifts of things you know they need.
You get the idea. As for the original post of letting a GF use your ATM card, I suggest you keep the account empty. Let her go to the grocery store once a month, fax you the receipt, and then put the same amount in the account.

If you are young, skilled, and intelligent, you might want to seriously consider leaving the US now, while you still can.

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Miguel says on Jun 6, 2005, 22:10:

Posters I agree, this is a good thread, and GIB...you outdid yourself! Well done!

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N2Aquatix says on Jun 8, 2005, 07:52:

Money And Options LMAO at Roofus!!! And thank you, Diggs. Yes, I am very happy with her and would not change anything. I speak spanish fairly well, so there is no language barrier. As for the rest of you that don't understand being poor, please take note of my past. I did not come from a rich family. I joined the Army and spent 4 years going to places like South Korea where you can get your at ss shot off for a buck or two. The Army then payed for my college and I studied hard and made a career for myself. I have compassion for people that don't have a lot of money or a lot of options because I have been there myself.

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Alejandrita1981 says on Jul 25, 2005, 13:46:

LISTEN TO ME.... Giving your girl-friend your debit card in the beginning of the relationship was not a good idea at all....have you ever wondered and asked yourself the question.." does she love me for me...or for my debit card?" I have a couisin that lives in cali and her boyfirnd is an American...he lives in North Carolina....let's just say this...while he is providing for her FINANCIAL needs....a little colombianito is taking care of her OTHER needs. I don't want to burst your bubble...but many girls in colombia hook up with Americans for financial security...read some of the other Forums...and you will se what I mean...you are not the only one with that problem...
Kiss and Hugs...I hope the best 4 you Babe!

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soccerstud says on Jul 25, 2005, 14:16:

it's ok to help her family out once in a while but not all the time to where all of relatives become dependant. i love the fact that people don't call b4 coming over it's just part of culture. growing up here in the us was hard for me and ackward because of the having to call b4 coming over thing but as i was growing up i started to show up at my friend's houses w/o calling and soon enough they adapted they sort of expected for me to just drop by. and they actually said they liked it because it like a warm thing to do. and actually i agree cuz it kinda makes u feel like part of their family.

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