China and Latin America

Albatross says on Apr 26, 2006, 05:40:

. I don't know if the "Chinese Model" of sweatshops and piracy under Authoritarian rule is exactly what Latin America needs, but apparently some do.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

Sr Tertius says on Apr 26, 2006, 06:05:

Back to 1812 From: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4872522.stm

"'We should always look at Latin America in relation to the Monroe Doctrine,' says Congressman Burton."

That's Dan Burton, Republican chairman of the sub-committee on the Western Hemisphere, reminding us that things haven't changed that much since 1812. He had more to say:

"We're concerned about the leftist countries that are dealing with China (...) It's extremely important that we don't let a potential enemy of the US become a dominant force in this part of the world."

I don't recall Mr. Burton running for office in any Latin American nation. So, until he is elected there, I think he should mind his own business, and let Latin America follow whatever model its people deem more appropriate.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

Wastelandlive says on Apr 26, 2006, 07:53:

Much ado about nothing China's doing this everywhere. So's India, to a lesser extent. It's natural that as nations industrialize that they will try to secure access to the natural resources they need. So what?

Anybody here actually believe that China's model is sustainable, or has a chance of supplanting free market democracy?

Who knows: maybe it's an improvement over grossly incompetent kleptocracy. So what do you get when you marry the two together? Venezuela?

Wasteland

Sr Tertius says on Apr 26, 2006, 08:48:

Tinto Most of those organizations that you mentioned, while certainly motivated by their own agenda, advance it by pressuring governments to stick to their commitments, not by simply demanding policy to accommodate to their interests. I don't remember any Latin American nation signing anything saying "We shall not deal with the People's Republic of China."

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

Monpirri says on Apr 26, 2006, 09:12:

Juanes in Japan promoting Colombia and music As I broadcast this news via the www, Juanes is in Tokyo Japan for a week. Uh, "China and Latin America?" I do not know if this is the greatest idea because China has a very low cost in labor, which means Colombian citizens rather buy from exports from China than from Colombia's domestic products.
I believe Colombian government has imposed some kind of tariff on products from China in order to help local Colombian products.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

Sr Tertius says on Apr 26, 2006, 09:32:

Extreme situations Tinto: You made a very good point. Any rule of action ("don't meddle in my business") must be tempered by extreme situations ("my business, btw, is to lapidate adulterous women"). Two of your examples (genital mutilation, lapidation) are extreme, and there are even more troubling situations, like the issue of genocide in Sudan, or any other country where that may be happening. What should be done? Cross our arms and be disgusted, or invoke a supreme principle and take action? We could debate our ears out on this... but that's not the case of China trading with Latin America. That's a simple matter of economic transactions between sovereign countries, not a extreme and urgent situation, and it is the exclusive business of the parties involved. As long as this is done within the bounds of prior commitments, I don't see why a US Congressman should have anything public to say about it.

Missionaries: Whatever activities they are engaged in should be approved by local governments. No problem there.

"European and U.S. activist groups are using the Colombian court system to change the laws." This is new to me. Do you have anything suggesting that this is the case? If it is so, I'd be outraged. And I am, generally speaking, what in the US would be called "pro-choice." But this is an issue that Colombians have to solve by themselves. On the other hand, I can see how activists outside our borders may see this (like I do) as a women's rights issue, and feel compelled to take action. We are again in the land of extreme, ethically challenging cases. That, again, is not what's going on between China and Latin America.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

Wastelandlive says on Apr 26, 2006, 10:04:

Ah, the things we can do with clever composition! Sr. T: "Most of those organizations that you mentioned, while certainly motivated by their own agenda, advance it by pressuring governments to stick to their commitments, not by simply demanding policy to accommodate to their interests."

That hardly even stands up to the laugh test.

Every agency which pressures a government frames its agenda in terms of the government's own commitments, whether that be treaty commitments, UN charters, or obligations to its own citizens.

So what?

Witness - Catholic Church: "You have an obligation to protect the unborn citizens of your community."

Or how about this from HRW?:

"By broadening laws that punish disrespect for government authorities, the Venezuelan government has flouted international human rights principles that protect free expression,� said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch. “While countries across Latin America are moving to repeal such laws, Venezuela has enacted further restrictions on the press that will shield officials from public scrutiny."

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/24/venezu10368.htm

My guess is that you assume that those agendas with which you agree represent said government's "true" commitments, whereas those with which you don't agree win your scorn.

Congratulations, you're average.

Which brings us back to Congressman Burton, who certainly hasn't arrogated himself the authority to demand that Latin American nations "shall not deal with the People's Republic of China."

(That's WAY PAST strawman - it's as if it were October in the land of Tertius, and you are making hay.)

What he quite appropriately assumes is that as Chairman of the Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere he has a committment to advance the interests of HIS nation, the United States of America.

(That's why we Americans elected him.)

Doing so definitely involves taking note of the growing relationship between his AOR and China. That means assessing the impact that arms deals will have on the current balance of power as well as the impact that commercial deals will have on the balance of trade. Presumably his job is to help shape legislation which ensures that the United States respond appropriately.

Taiwan, anyone?

Wasteland

Sr Tertius says on Apr 26, 2006, 18:46:

Damn, Tinto, making me think about these things when I have work to do!!

On the way to the bathroom I was thinking of a few things, among them:

(a) Despite what I said, I'm actually not outraged at the support from foreign organizations to causes that are controversial within our borders. Worst thing is, I'm not sure why. Could it be that I actually support the cause, and hence I'm biased? Possible. On the other hand, I know that the Heritage Foundation and several other conservative organizations in the US and elsewhere provide financial support to Cato Institute-wannabes in Colombia and elsewhere in Latin America, and despite my disliking of their cause, I'm actually okay with the foreign support. Maybe it's because these are private organizations, and the taboo applies only to national governments... hmmm... then again, any national government could easily operate under the cover of a private organization (e.g. Chalabi's Iraqi National Congress), and in many cases what's public and what's private is pretty difficult to untangle. The rule gets quite complicated there. But, in any case, all these considerations do not apply to a Congressman's comments on a bilateral issue between two sovereign countries.

(b) However, think of all the lobbying that foreign governments do in Washington. Colombia is certainly not shy about it. I wonder if this is okay. Well, that's a debatable point, but in any case, the asymmetry of power between US and Colombia should let every law-abiding tax-paying US citizen sleep tight: There is no risk of the Colombian lobby becoming too influential. Besides, Colombian lobby is generally regarding things that are of the competence of Colombia (e.g., Plan Colombia), so maybe THAT makes it okay. But what about the Russians trying to influence US policy towards Georgia or Ukraine? How about the Chinese funding Clinton's presidential campaign? Is THAT okay?

You may figure by this time, I've spent a suspiciously long time in the bathroom thinking about this, and I really don't have an answer that satisfies me. I got work to finish before leaving for Bogotá, so I'll think more about this some other day. I guess it boils down to one thing, for sure, and you may want to take it exclusively as an aesthetic, subjective, personal, etc. sort of observation: I think Sen. Burton's comments are arrogant (because of the pressumptions) and distasteful (because it candidly refers to a policy that many in Latin America strongly resent). Here, we don't have to agree. You may think that I am being too sensitive. Maybe. But I'm sure as hell I'm not the only one.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

Wastelandlive says on Apr 26, 2006, 20:18:

Why thank you A! That's about as close as I've ever seen you come to candor. Perhaps Tinto brings out the best in you? Your best Hoover imitation, anyways...

Be sure to send some pictures from Bogota. Drop by the Hard Rock on Parque 93, and toss back a single malt for us!

Wasteland

Mr. Hollywood says on Apr 27, 2006, 12:58:

Burton Wait, you're telling me that someone in Congress is bloviating about things outside their range of expertise and authority?

Stop the press!

Wastelandlive says on Apr 27, 2006, 17:43:

"Chairman of the Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere" Yep, he's bloviating.

Probably doesn't have a clue about Latin America... not nearly as informed as your average PBH'r; just shows up for the free buffet.

This forum rocks!

Wasteland

vladimiro says on Apr 29, 2006, 00:27:

China and Latin America I read that the fast growing economies of China and India are driving up prices of Latin America's natural resources. With the greater demand for thier resources Latin American countries don't need to bend over backwards to attract foriegn investment. In the past countries like Bolivia had to make deals very advantageous to US/European companies to get foriegn investment, but now resource hungry China and India are more than happy to invest in a Bolivia with a leftist/nationalist government.

People are more receptive to populist promises of redistributing the wealth from natural resources when they see sky high prices for those resources. As long as China's economy continues to grow at its current rate, prices for natural resources will be higher, and Nationalist/Populist politicians will have the advantage.