Chavez's latest stroke of brilliance

Sr Tertius says on Feb 17, 2007, 11:08:

I don't know if there is any "psychological benefit" in any of this, but I wonder if there is one in the insane obsession with Chavez. Maybe. In any case, taking zeros off a currency has plenty of precedents following high inflation rates: Mexico, Peru, Argentina, and Brazil did it in the past. On the other hand, declaring inflation "illegal", as Zimbabwe's Central Bank recently did, would be funny if it wasn't because of the obvious tragedy it reflects.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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gorgonabob says on Feb 17, 2007, 16:37:

chavez is the best thing to happen to colombia in quite a while. hes there fucking up his country and whos benefitting, colombia.. tourists are starting to avoid venezuela like the plague and who benefits there colombia. and what international company would ever think of investing in colombia at this moment, none.. investment in colombia on the other hand is booming.

chavez can take that country back to the middle ages for all i care. hes helping me out!

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juanalejo says on Feb 17, 2007, 17:37:

Venezuela I agree that Mr. Chavez does not really know what he is doing, but for me that is worrying. Having him running our second largest trade partner and the country the buys the largest ammount of non-traditional exports which are the ones with the highest ammount of added value to the production chain (that is employed people per product and skilled labor) is no joke. When Venezuela collapses we are going to feel it around here for sure.

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expatriate says on Feb 17, 2007, 18:21:

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goin_south says on Feb 17, 2007, 20:18:

When Venezuela collapses we are going to feel it around here for sure.

It's probably nothing to worry about, juanalejo; your GREAT UNCLE
UNCLE SAM
UNCLE SAM
UNCLE SAM.... will likely swoop down 'kindly and gently', like Miguel_Clavo, and help all the Venezuelan Brethren out, TO ENSURE THERE ARE NO...'OIL SPILLS'...jejee

Oh! What a day! Gasoline in the good ol' usa at 97 cents a gallon again! eeey-jaaa!

I am wondering if so many of the people who write here are going to be right about this,... the 'near-distant-future' downfall of uncle hugo. As I read on PBH, this seems to be one item that so many people here are in 'UNUSUAL AGREEMENT' about.

Paz y prosperidad para Colombia.

Ciao! Gustav.

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tomtom33 says on Feb 18, 2007, 04:15:

Balls? Right. There are so many profound truths written here.

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Waterdawg says on Feb 18, 2007, 07:36:

Chavez bashing Bush is a hoot , " Dumb & Dumber " ! .. However , the ripple effect of the policy's enacted in Venezuela should be a concern to all who live and work in Latin America ..

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bhill says on Feb 18, 2007, 07:37:

Best thing? Not really. Venezuelas problems sure won't be good for Colombia if their economy collapses. Where do you think all the untold millions of refugees will go?

-B

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podborski says on Feb 18, 2007, 08:13:

I'm so obsessed with chavez, I mean, 2 topics about him and 1 about oil prices, holy shit I better get to a psychiatrist right away!

How far you have fallen sr t, even a little criticism of your man gets that kind of reaction from you? Wow, that was easy. lol

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 18, 2007, 09:31:

Podborski I should've clarified that I didn't mean it as a personal obsession, but as a sort of collective PBH obsession. That's what I pointed out more than four months ago. My mistake.

Now, in your original post, you assume some kind of moronic reply from the "academic members" (?) that you will "wait patiently for". I don't see how such gratuituous insults are justified, so don't get so indignant.

And for clarification's sake, Chavez is far from "my man." Aside from his standing up against Bush's bullyish foreign policies, I have no sympathy for Chavez, his government, or most of his policies, and I've said this a few times here. I don't know where your assumptions come from, but my guess is that they come from the same place that provides this vague notion of Chavez as a complete fool or an evil genius (or both: self-contradictory statements as fair game is spouting ideology) taking Venezuela to a sort of Pol-Potian Cambodia. I simply point out that Venezuela is Venezuelan's concern, that most of the stuff that is said here about Chavez has little to do with Colombia and is highly imaginative, and suddenly he is "my man." Interestingly, I say the same about Bush (he is mainly the US's concern, and opinions about him unrelated to Colombia do not belong here) but he is not "my man." Smells like prejudice to me.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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podborski says on Feb 18, 2007, 10:58:

then PBH is far more 'obsessed' with obtaining tourist visas for colombianas, old fat gringos dating young hot colombians, having sex with donkeys and a whole host of other things.

I didn't mention you by name anyway, but you sure seem to be defensive about mr c.

I didn't say anything about moronic either, I said long, confusing and without merit. Sorry if that's an insult to you, just my humble opinion. Feel free to comment on any or all of my stupid posts, there are lots.

I find it so very interesting that so many people are always complaining about 'why are you posting on this topic' or 'why are you saying that'.

There are tons of post here I just ignore, why don't you do the same?

When some nutcase posts incessantly about being drugged in cali, I think the proper response is ignore, not write long posts complaining about it.

But that's just me.

p.s. I would argue that Chavez is a LOT more relevant to Colombia than Bush.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 18, 2007, 12:04:

The Anti-Chavez Obsession: Chavez more relevant than Bush? "I find it so very interesting that so many people are always complaining about 'why are you posting on this topic' or 'why are you saying that'"

There's nothing interesting in that: It's a simple application of the "stay on topic" rule. There is no rule, on the other hand, against talking about sex with donkeys.

"There are tons of post here I just ignore, why don't you do the same?"

In fact, I do ignore most of what is posted in PBH. But I can't help but to be curious about this anti-Chavez obsession. I wish someone would explain it me.

I'm not insulted by anything you've said, btw, but I find it quite disingenuous that you get so indignant about my poorly articulated curiosity when you open up your thread insulting the intelligence of the "academic members." Who are these "academic members" anyway?

"I would argue that Chavez is a LOT more relevant to Colombia than Bush."

Please do argue, because I strongly disagree with that. At many different levels (primarily trade and migration) Venezuela comes second to the US. In other topics, like involvement in internal affairs (counterinsurgency, drugs, other forms of "aid") nobody comes close to the US. The only thing in which Venezuela tops the US is in geographical proximity, but so does Ecuador, Peru, Brazil, and Panama. Noone in PBH, however, seems to be nearly as obsessed with Alan Garcia or Rafael Correa as with Hugo Chavez. And things are not particularly dandy with Ecuador right now, whereas the few incidents with Venezuela (which only a handful here have name specifically) are something of the past. So, how exactly is Chavez a LOT more relevant to Colombia than Bush?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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goin_south says on Feb 18, 2007, 12:10:

I would know nothing, if not for pbsh....lol but, I'm wondering by this time, if THEY HAVE ODDS IN VEGAS AS TO WHEN THE DOWNFALL OF UNCLE HUGO WILL HAPPEN, it is such a prevalent topic, here and as said above...something so many diversified members of pbh tend to agree that is WILL HAPPEN, and it WON'T BE TOO, TOO LONG.

I wonder if Uncle Hugo has a cabinet member that keeps him alert as to what those CRAZY F**KS ON PBsH are saying...LOL!

Paz y prosperidad para Colombia.

Ciao! Gustav.

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podborski says on Feb 18, 2007, 14:21:

too funny vallenato Communism is a politcal philosophy, to call someone a communist is not an insult but a description of their political philosophy. however, I think it SHOULD be an insult, just like calling someone a nazi is.

Not sure whre I ever called anyone a commie though.

Who did I insult personally?

Anyway, good luck in your campaign, I could not care less about being booted, I really do waste too much time here, but you are proving my point.

I hope it's just that your grasp of english is limited and you have no idea what I am talking about.

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podborski says on Feb 18, 2007, 14:25:

sure glad I am not the one with colombiamike and vallenato on my side. jejeje

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billyb says on Feb 18, 2007, 14:38:

Cmike and Vallenato, one and the same. BillyB

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Monpirri says on Feb 18, 2007, 14:41:

Are you talkin to meee? What's going on here! Please let's make up, go ahead and hug each other and then you all can have your ice cream!

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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podborski says on Feb 18, 2007, 14:46:

Chavez is a character who says and does lots of dumb things, so he's easy to poke fun at. What's the big deal?

1) Bush is a lame duck
2) Bush is President of a NORTH american country, not Colombia's neighbour
3) Bush is not a megalomaniac likely to invade colombia, I'd say Iran is a more likely target.

I could go on but this is boring.

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podborski says on Feb 18, 2007, 14:48:

you must have a LOT of time on your hands to be going around ensuring people stay on topic.

I think we managed to turn one thread about colombiamike into a discussion on the use of local construction materials, better get on that!

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goin_south says on Feb 18, 2007, 14:59:

vallenatomike, how can you not get along with a guy with a nickname like,.....I-POD?

Paz y prosperidad para Colombia.

Ciao! Gustav.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 18, 2007, 15:10:

I'm not the thread police... that's Tinto and Desi And, matter of fact, I have very little time to participate in PBH, otherwise I would've started a thread or two on Colombia-relevant topics, such as the recent indicents relating politicians and paracos, suspicious military successes, threats of censorship in B/quilla, the return of "proceso 8000," etc.

As I said, I'm just curious about this regular digression in the "Politics & the War" forum towards something relatively not more relevant to Colombia than so many other issues, such as the problems in the border with Ecuador. If "local construction materials" become a repetitive topics in "Politics & the War," you'll probably see me asking some questions two. One swallow doesn't make a summer, but 20 threads or so on Chavez makes for an obsession.

Your rationalization is running thin. Easy to make fun of? Yeah, that's convincing. Colombia's neighbour? I already mentioned that. "Megalomaniac likely to invade colombia," that is, with all due respect, the more stupid and delusional thing I've heard... and I only hear it in PBH.

Maybe a psychiatrist wouldn't be a bad idea after all.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Monpirri says on Feb 18, 2007, 15:17:

That's it! This thread is locked effective NOW!

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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podborski says on Feb 18, 2007, 15:21:

now see, that's an insult telling me I should see a psychiatrist. (A mild one, and probably a good suggestion really.)

But it's ok, I'll survive. No calls to eliminate the thread, force people to stay on topic, boot people out and all that.

I continue to underestimate how seriously people take themselves.

That's NOT directed at you sr t, seems to be lots of folks here that get riled up very easily.

(or maybe I'm guilty of what I am always saying others are doing: misunderstanding the tone of some posts)

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Monpirri says on Feb 18, 2007, 15:22:

Holly cow I do not have the key to lock it, would somebody help me to lock this thread, pleeease?

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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goin_south says on Feb 18, 2007, 15:25:

It's jus a gringo thing sr tertius we're all obssessed with chavez's potential for causing hell in our lil part of the world. you know, oil still = power and chaos, these days. next, he'll have weapons of mass destruction, and well... see... really, the USA is the only country in the world that should be so priveleged. We're simple people, with a flare and taste for control...peace, and change according to our plans, not someone else's.

Now you can close the thread; I said it all for ya.

Paz y prosperidad para Colombia.

Ciao! Gustav.

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Monpirri says on Feb 18, 2007, 15:26:

If they do not lock this thread now I am going to write to my congressman and I am going to tell him that nobody wants to lock the damn thread.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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podborski says on Feb 18, 2007, 15:34:

jejeje monpirri welcome aboard the 'don't take everything so seriously' club.

BTW, you might have seen me defending the quality of colombian beef recently, and I was being honest, not trying to score some cheap points with you.

I don't know if you recall my suggestion to go to La Cabrera parilla in BsAs, I don't think you had a chance to go, but I'm telling you next time you are here you have to go. Not just the best steak I have had, but they serve a lot of little local side dishes of vegetables cooked in various sauces that are great too.

Oh damn, off topic again.

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Monpirri says on Feb 18, 2007, 15:40:

Freedom of Speech in the United States Boy, I am glad that this site promotes the Freedom of Speech.

"Freedom of Speech: These sites support and promote the fundamental human right of freedom of speech as recognized in the constitution of the United States of America."

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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Monpirri says on Feb 18, 2007, 15:43:

Podborski I did not see the thread because I was in Honolulu having lulu juices.
But, I thank you for stating the facts about Colombian beef.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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scotty says on Feb 18, 2007, 15:53:

ha you called that balls to stand at the UN and act like a clown. Chavez is a screwball, he is not only making a fool of himself he is bringing Venezuela down.
I see a sad future for venezuela and its people if this nut case Chavez continues to be their leader.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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scotty says on Feb 18, 2007, 16:00:

speak for yourself all americans arent obsessed with Chavez, some dont even know who he is. personally i think Chavez is a clown, he huffs and puffs and spews garbbage out of his mouth and all he really has is oil...he hangs with the biggest thugs in the world and outside that group no one likes the guy. he is bringing his country and country men down to a Cuba type level.
this guy is a clown and the world will deal with him when the time is right.
right now there are bigger fish to fry.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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Monpirri says on Feb 18, 2007, 16:03:

Podborski Excuse me, I was answering a phone call from Gabriel Garcia Marquez he was telling me how he spells caribañolas.

Che,I'll promise I will look for you when I return to Argentina and we go to La Cabrera parilla in BsAs.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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Monpirri says on Feb 18, 2007, 16:11:

Vallenato5 Compadre, why don't pull the acordion out and play for us, "Porque te Amo"

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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podborski says on Feb 18, 2007, 16:14:

I dunno vallenato I think Chavez might not like my criticisms and he might just send a crack team of assasins to come and get me here in..uhh...Bolivia.

Really though, I just want to be on record predicting the failure of this particular economic policy (I am an economist by training you see, thus my interest in this stuff)and of his policies in general.

Then I am going to come back here in about 3 years and say 'told you so'.

(And then the apologists will blame everything on the USA, speculators, factors beyond their control, the weather, big business, political opponents, etc. etc. etc. All so very predictable.)

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goin_south says on Feb 18, 2007, 17:37:

naaaw, I-Pod, we'er jus all gonna blame you... lol. and Colombiavallenato5mike.
Oh, BTW. I jus read in the hotbox, that Busch struck an 'oil-for-disarmament' deal with N. Korea. Does that mean C_Mike is coming home soon?

Paz y prosperidad para Colombia.

Ciao! Gustav.

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goin_south says on Feb 18, 2007, 17:59:

I think you better take that up with gomezman5; The 'Harry Carry' of PBH.

Paz y prosperidad para Colombia.

Ciao! Gustav.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 18, 2007, 18:06:

Elfeliz... That's as good a hypothesis as anyone else's. For some reason I don't hear so much in the news about Zimbabwe, but Chavez (or "Shah-vez" as they say in Fox News) is EVERYWHERE. It's even #6 in Fox's threat list! What can broke-ass Banana Republic Venezuela with its clownish semi-dictator do to the almighty US of A?

I am absolutely honest here: I don't understand it. I was wishing that some info would transpire in PBH, but a sudden burst of lay-backness, I-was-just-joking sort of attitude pretty much precludes it. Ahhh... and I was looking forward so much to shaking hands with our own "academic members"!

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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podborski says on Feb 18, 2007, 18:13:

actually el feliz you're almost right Hugo won't blame me, but he'll blame the 'pessimists' for creating a self fulfilling prophecy, another popular tact for the left.

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podborski says on Feb 18, 2007, 18:21:

so who are we 'right wingers' supposed to be mocking sr t?

this is a colombia board, colombia is in south america, I am in south america, Chavez is making the news here, who am I supposed to comment on?

I'm sure Evo and Correa will provide some entertainment soon, don't worry, but right now Hugo is all I've got.

Should be interesting to watch Garcia too, but I thought he was on my side (more or less)?

Uribe seems to be hitting the headlines today too, but I leave that up to you and vallenato to post on. I won't even say you're obsessed with Uribe if you do.

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podborski says on Feb 18, 2007, 18:31:

and zimbabwe is related to colombia how?

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goin_south says on Feb 18, 2007, 18:32:

sr tertius, is a 'thread police'.. similar to a clothes designer?

Paz y prosperidad para Colombia.
It's scary, when you people start saying what I wrote makes sense; geeez; I hope the store hurrys with some more Sailor Jerry's ;)

Ciao! Gustav.

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podborski says on Feb 18, 2007, 18:36:

I'm starting to think that sr t believes there is some sort of big media conspiracy against chavez going on?

And maybe us PBHers are part of it? jaja!

Is that what you are getting at?

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podborski says on Feb 18, 2007, 18:45:

but when I say 'I told you so', vallenato, somebody will tell me it's not all bad in venezuela because they have free medical care and high literacy rates.

They won't actually have medicine, but if they did it would be free.

And they won't have jobs for their literate population, but hey, that's the fault of the USA because no nation can prosper without the big bad USA being their trading partner, apparently.

Oh but, trade with the USA is bad, wait, I mean, uh oh ...

I've heard it all before, still hoping to hear something new, sigh.

Still, it is good fun for a while anyway, isn't it?

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 18, 2007, 19:22:

Who are you supposed to be mocking? How should I know? My mind-reading skills are not that sharp yet (or maybe that AFDB actually works).

"Uribe seems to be hitting the headlines today too"

Just a tad. Nothing noticeable.

"and zimbabwe is related to colombia"

No, it isn't. I'm sure we can make up a connection, though.

"there is some sort of big media conspiracy against chavez going on?"

I don't know. Is there?

"Is that what you are getting at?"

I don't think I am getting at anything. Check the AFDB, it's giving you the wrong signals. It can also predict the future, right?

Ok, no more beating around the bushes... are we meeting the "academic members" or not?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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goin_south says on Feb 18, 2007, 19:24:

Si! I-Pod. Were jus hoping you're not really hidin out in Bolivia, writin all this pro-USA stuff, while the new bolivian pres is monitoring your email ;)

Paz y prosperidad para Colombia.

I-pod, if they also work in reverse, maybe you need one of these:



And, only hope you may have some of this:

Ciao! Gustav.

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poco says on Feb 18, 2007, 23:15:

The financial folks don't think it will work Sometime in the next year Venezuela will drop 3 zeros off their currency. However with inflation that could exceed 20% he should wait until the last minute to make the change.

I couldn't find a source saying it would do any good. Seems the official rate is 2150 but the "black market rate" is 4150 and Venezuela pays the higher rate for imported goods.

Chavez thinks it will help bolster moral? He thinks paying THOUSANDS of Bolivars for ONE dollar is psychological damaging to his people. I would think "HIS" people are not rich so they shouldn't worry ? So I guess it is damaging to Chavez's ego to pay THOUSANDS of Bolivars for one dollar.

Chavez has proposed a TAX CUT (maybe he is a Republican in disguise).

Chavez also said the tax cuts will cost the government as much as 8 trillion bolivars ($3.7 billion) a year in lost revenue. The government will make up for such loss by creating new taxes on luxury goods, he said.

I wonder,, who will have the money to buy Luxury goods ? the proletariat ?

No, the poor won’t be buying but those remaining in country (with money) are seeking ways to protect their savings. That being the case I'd say almost anything with real value like a car or jewelry, maybe pots and pans ? Pots could become valuable if Chavez decrees EVERYONE SHALL TWO POTS TO PISS IN. It might be wise to have a few chickens because Chavez will soon want a chicken in every pot. He could confiscate your chickens but that’s one of those capitalists risks.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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aztec says on Feb 19, 2007, 05:54:

Most of us do not agree with Sr Tertius... ...on hardly anything he says. But, it is a mistake not taking him seriously. He is smart and articulate with an almost encyclopedic grasp of leftist propaganda.

We need to listen to him because there are many people out there who think like he does. Instead of ridiculing him we need to offer cogent and persuasive arguments in combating his philosophies.

The very last thing we need to do is close any of his threads or ban him. In fact I am opposed to censuring any one on this Board. Moderators should stay out of the fray and let discussions come to a natural death no matter how distasteful the comments become.

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nick b. says on Feb 19, 2007, 06:59:

almost encyclopedic grasp of leftist propaganda combating his philosophies... I dont read any leftist propaganda in Sr T. comments,but I do find it an ENRICHMENT to hear OTHER POINTS OF VIEW..also his.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 19, 2007, 07:00:

Aztec "He is smart and articulate with an almost encyclopedic grasp of leftist propaganda."

Thank you... I guess... my grasp on the right-ist propaganda is not as good, but I'm learning.

Like you, I am all for an open discussion based on "cogent and persuasive arguments." But not on "philosophies" or anything as vague as that, but about Colombia, which is what keeps me in PBH. In that sense, I think the moderators play an important role, keeping the discussion on topic. I'm not interested in talking Chavez for the 30th time, but I can't help point out at factual mistakes, particularly when they are accompanied with a bizarre sense of arrogance.

That being said, I'm not sure who is the "us" that do not agree with me. I mean, it's not like I seek total agreement, on the contrary, but with most people--top of my head: Juancegomez, Desi, Miguel, Colombiche--I've found a lot of common ground. No total agreement, thankfully, but a lot of common ground.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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aztec says on Feb 19, 2007, 08:29:

Touché... ...Sr Tertius!

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podborski says on Feb 19, 2007, 11:39:

ummm, I think you're trying to read to fast sr t YOU brought up zimbabwe and I asked `and zimbabwe is related to colombia how?' Get it? I'll try to type more slowly for you in future.

No need to read my mind, it was a simple question. You think I should not be commenting on Chavez, leader of Colombia's close neighbour, so please tell me what you think is appropriate, zimbabwe???

Really, you sure seem awfully upset about all this, or do you normally suggest that people that you disagree with have mental health issues, drug problems, etc.? Using terms like ' insane obsession'. Man, if anyone is insanely obsessed, it seems obvious to me who that might be.

I never even mentioned you by name, and merely took a swipe at the world of academia who tend to write a lot of nonsense in the classic bullshit baffles brains methodology, and you reply with personal insults. What's with that? I assume you're just having a bad day.

Finally, you are the one who keeps these threads about Chavez going. If you didn´t type a bunch of nonsense I wouldn't have anything to reply to would I?

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podborski says on Feb 19, 2007, 11:49:

as for tin foil hat conspiracy theorists You, again, are the one saying 'someone' has an 'insane obsession' with Chavez, and FOX news has Chavez EVERYWHERE !!!! Instead of Zimbabwe.

Or are you forgetting what you wrote?

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miamimike says on Feb 19, 2007, 12:51:

Look more closely at what in Reality transpires and Less at what is said. Trade between Venezuela and the US is booming from both sides. In the end, it is for the Venezuelan people to decide and if they choose to turn him (chavez) out, that is their business and decision, not that of the USA. BTW, where was the OUTRAGE 30 years ago or longer when these other past Venezuelan Presidents were Raiding the Treasury?? This didn't start with Chavez, if all the monies from Venezuela's past sales of Natural resources(Oil,minerals,ect) were put into Venezuela's Infrastructure it would be the Athens of South America; instead it was put into the pockets of the corrupt politicans; the USA Goverments stood Idly by with their thumb up their Asses as these crooks looted from their People! I ask again, Where was the US OUTRAGE? Then the US has advance notice of a Coup d' etat against Chavez and in the short interim he was out of Office, the US, without verification, recognized the Coup Perpetrator as the Legal President. We all know where that went; Chavez was back in a day or two! If someone pulled that with the USA how would we feel towards the Foreign Govt who recognized a Bogus President???

Trade: "socialist ideology and the tensions between the Venezuelan and the United States governments have had little impact on economic relations between the two countries. In 2006, the United States remained Venezuela's most important trading partner for both oil exports and general imports - bilateral trade expanded 36% during that year[10]

With rising oil prices and Venezuela’s oil exports accounting for the bulk of trade, ""bilateral trade between the US and Venezuela is surging""", with US companies and the Venezuelan government benefiting."[11]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States-Venezuela_relations


http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/35766.htm

From above link:
Trade, Manufacturing and Agriculture,,,
Thanks to petroleum exports, Venezuela usually posts a trade surplus. The United States is Venezuela's leading trade partner. Through November 2006, the United States exported $8.2 billion in goods to Venezuela, making it the 22nd largest market for the U.S. Including petroleum products, Venezuela exported $34.4 billion in goods to the U.S., over the same period, making it our 9th largest source of goods

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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podborski says on Feb 19, 2007, 13:59:

so your answer to years of government abuse of power and corruption, is to elect someone who wants to increase government power and involvement in every aspect of the economy, replace individual rights with collective rights and grant himself extraordinary powers?

Brilliant solution, I'm sure it will turn out well.

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miamimike says on Feb 19, 2007, 14:47:

My Question was,,,, Where was the Outrage when this wholesale looting of the Venezuelan Treasury was taking place? Did you complain or speak out? I have followed politics for the last 40+ years and never once heard a word on Condemnation from anyone here in the USA so now its different with Chavez after he called Bush a Sulfur magnet. I'm neither pro or con Chavez, only I like to see both sides of the Arguement fairly presented. If the Venezuelan people are that tired of him, next election cycle let them vote him out. If he suspends elections, let them revolt and toss them out. Its their business not that of the USA,,,


Its like that in the USA, last election cycle Nov 7, 2006 the US Voters were tired of the party in power so they (voters) gave the Republicans the boot. Thats how a democracy should work,,,voice your displeasure at the voting booth, majority wins(well not in US presidental elections with the electoral college LOL)

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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aztec says on Feb 19, 2007, 15:33:

I agree and suport your argument miamimike... ...if you promise to not allow any refugees from Venezuelan into the States.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 19, 2007, 17:16:

podborski You are making a fuss out of nothing. Let's go by parts:

1. My answer to your post simply pointed out that taking zeros out of a currency is a somewhat conventional practice and not, as your sarcastically pointed out, a "stroke of brilliance." Pause. Do we agree on this? Either way, that was my WHOLE point. If you care to notice, the rest of my posts are primarily replies to messages directed at me.

2. Instead of replying to my main point, you got all caught up in the "insane obsession with Chavez" thing. I think that is a fair description for PBH--not necessarily you, I already clarified that, so please quit taking it personally. We may disagree on whether PBH is obsessed with Chavez and leave it like that. It's not an important point.

3. I brought up Zimbabwe in two occasions: First, as a contrast with Venezuela's currency policy, to show you that there ARE other instances in which I'd agree with the "stroke of brilliance" assessment. And second, replying to ElFeliz about his "it's a gringo thing" hypothesis (he seems to agree with me on the "insane obsession" diagnosis). I pointed out TO HIM that Venezuela's crisis receives so much attention, but a much worse crisis like Zimbabwe receives very little in the US media, Fox being an example--maybe that informs his hypothesis, I don't know. But in a crass non sequitur you ask me how is Zimbabwe related to Colombia (???). I told you what I know: Nothing. It wasn't meant to make a connection. It was on a separate discussion. You can go on and on in circles on this, but I'll have to leave you alone.

4. "No need to read my mind, it was a simple question." Your question was poorly articulated. You can admit to that: I do it every time, and my manhood is not diminished. "so who are we 'right wingers' supposed to be mocking sr t?" is ambiguously a question about your own intend or a request for instructions. I read it as the former, but only now you disambiguate. Answer: If you find any value in mocking, you should try doing it on subjects that are relevant to the forum. Chavez isn't, Zimbabwe isn't... I'm fair game if you want, but it'll probably be easier to pick any of the Colombian politicians that you would describe as "left wingers" (whatever meaning you want to attribute to that).

5. I'm not upset, but I find your non sequiturs rather... bizarre, I guess. Sounded to me like paranoid rambling--it's a bit clearer now that most of it isn't--so I thought of throwing in a joke. I didn't mean it as an offense, and I am not using it again.

6. "Or are you forgetting what you wrote?" Now that's an obsession that you can attribute to me: I don't forget a word I write, and I either stick to it or retract it. I recommend that same to you.

7. Few things are as boring as a discussion about a discussion. Let's leave it where it is and we will simply "agree to disagree." How about that? But please, come back to point 1... eventually.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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miamimike says on Feb 19, 2007, 17:36:

Aztec-the Rush For Political Asylum has Already Started as Evidenced by the large number of Asylum filings from Wealthy(not working class I will add)Venezuelans running to Miami and their Multi Million Dollar Digs in Key Biscayne. Immigration Central at 79th &Biscayne blvd here in Miami has their Marching Orders from Bush to grant Asylum to any of these "Cut&Runners" who attempt to muddy up the waters for Chavez, Bush's avowed enamigo. These Venezuelans have copied the same tactic as their Cuban Brothers, instead of staying to fight for your country they figure its easier to Dance the "Cut&Run" Mambo to Miami and catcall from afar. It just looks like thier freedom is not worth a fight so why would I be concerned with what happens to them? Just keep the Oil flowing for those Gas Guzzling SUVS,,,,That is what is important to Americans,,,Instead of weaning ourselves as a Country off the Oil we use instead we choose to support these ME Oil Shieks as well as Chavez as evidenced by the massive amounts of Oil we use(waste) daily to support our Habit,,,

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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podborski says on Feb 20, 2007, 06:27:

my problem is, sr t that I have heard all these arguments before, and so in my long rambling posts I often try the 'pre-emptive' comment, as in my post above where i answered your point number 1:

1. "many other nations have played this game with the same sad 'result'. But hey, that was before, this time it'll be different."

I am fully aware that many other nations have done this, that's exactly my point: It didn't work! I just thought maybe people would have learned from history by now, but I guess not.

I find it very comical, really, that Hugo is pulling this one, which is to me a clear sign of desperation and more importantly a sign that he does not even have a basic understanding of economics.

If you really want to get into it, I think it's a classic example of how socialists seem to believe things can be improved by shuffling papers, rather than by doing real work to identify the causes of problems.

2. I thought i'd already replied to your main point, so this was much more interesting to me, I am just curious why you keep asking about motivations people have to post about Chavez.

People post about Bush here all the time and I don't question why. I figure it's because they are for him, against him, or merely interested. What's the big deal?

And don't worry, even though I did think it was directed at me, that's ok, I really don't get all worked up about it, and I thought my joking tone conveyed that but I guess not. You seem to think it's arrogance, I dunno, maybe it is that too?

3. The whole zimbabwe thing is the non sequitar if you ask me. You are always complaining about staying on topic, and then you bring up zimbabwe. I dunno, maybe it's relevant as you say, but I have no clue what's going on over there. My point was you misread my post and misquoted me. No big deal but I felt I should clear it up.

4. I don't think the question was poorly articulated, but let's say it was just to show you I am the very first one to say I'm wrong when I am, and it isn't hard to do at all. I've made many, many dumb mistakes in my life (and unfortunately I remember almost all of them.)

But the point I was getting at is, I am clearly a capitalist not a socialist, so why on earth would I be NOT be criticising Chavez?

Because he's not colombian? I find the whole 'off topic' tact laughable, come on, there was talk of war between colombia and venezuela about a year ago, it was in el tiempo, remember?

I don't care if the talk was sensible or not, to say Chavez is not relevant to Colombia is very weak.

I don't know diddly squat about ANY politicians in Colombia, left, right or center, so I can't play in that game.

What I DO know is economics, and that's what interests me.

If Uribe announces some good or bad policy regarding economics, I'd be happy to jump on it.

5. Glad you are not upset, it seemed to me you must be to resort to the kind of (somewhat) personal attacks that you yourself complain about; "I'll contribute up until the adolescent insults start, then I'm outta here" is I think the general drift of what you said one time, right?

Just to be clear, I could not care less if you attack me personally, you can even bring my mother into it if you want. believe me, I don't get upset. Passionate (?) sometimes, but that's it. I don't quite get how some people actually worry or are bothered by some silly comments made by anonymous internet users. It's bizarre if you ask me, but seems I'm in the minority on this point.

As for non sequitars: Guilty! I guess I all too often think people are starting from some of the same assumptions I am, or I just try not to write such horribly long posts, like this one. But who wants to read all this?

6. I honestly can't recall what I had for lunch yesterday. I'll never be good at this, but I rely on others to catch me out on any and all hypocritical, contradictory, arrogant comments.

7. I sure hope it's only us 2 reading this, it has to be the most boring post ever.

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podborski says on Feb 20, 2007, 06:34:

miamimike I have no idea if my father was outraged at what was going on in Venezuela 40 years ago or not, or if the USA was commenting or not. As for me I was in diapers, if that.

I think it's absurd to suggest one can't comment on bad government now if you (or more appropriately your relatives) didn't do it 40 years ago.

If you mean to suggest US foreign policy has an abysmal track record of supporting crackpot dictators like Batista and Pinochet (to name but a few), I couldn't agree more.

But what's that got to do with chavez's road to dictatorship now?

So you think the US should say, 'Damn, we backed that idiot Batista, now we better keep our mouths shut at the next dictator in the making'?

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podborski says on Feb 20, 2007, 07:29:

just to prove I don't mind being personally insulted, and in my usual pre-emptive fashion, I have come up several names you can taunt me with:

podblowhardski
podboringski
podernity-suit-waiting-to-happen-ski

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cali373 says on Feb 20, 2007, 10:15:

"so your answer to years of government
abuse of power and corruption, is to elect someone who wants to increase government power and involvement in every aspect of the economy, replace individual rights with collective rights". The last part about "replace individual rights with collective rights". This is the first I have heard about this in Venezuela. What would be an example of this?

Smile if you are a thinker!

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podborski says on Feb 20, 2007, 12:44:

a perfect example cali would be expropriating (taking by force) oil companies from their individual owners to benefit 'the common good'.

This is a central tenet of socialism. (I hope we aren´t going to have to go back all the way to what is socialism and what is capitalism, or debate whether Chavez is an avowed socialist or not?)

The essential difference is socialists believe the 'common good' or 'the people' or 'the state' comes before individual rights.

I personally believe individual rights are supreme.

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miamimike says on Feb 20, 2007, 16:14:

What Business is it of Ours (usa) What Chavez Does? We have a full plate of problems here in the USA to address so we hardly need to poke our nose into another country's business and get into another war; don't we have enough really serious problems like Iraq, North Korea, Iran to deal with? What "Known" National Security threat does Chavez Present to he USA Now? If Venezuala is NOW so important, why has the Bush Team all but Diplomatically ignored Latin America(save for Plan Colombia-a vested US Interest)for the last 5-6 years?? We have dealt for decades with these Oil Kings(thiefs)--look at Suadi Arabia(good buddies of the US and visitors to the "Ranch in crawford, texas btw)they Repress their people daily; how about that Democratic Saudi Vote(not) where the same Royal Family for decades has controlled the Oil Wealth? Real Democracy, eh? What's this with their Women: they can't drive and they need to wear a veil over their head. Steal a loaf of bread and they cut your hand off in a public square at Noon!! Get caught smoking a Doobie and you get death! Most of the 9/11 Terrorists came from Suadi Arabia and OBL recived funding from some of these Saudi Shieks--are they not worse then Chavez??? Where was the Outrage at the Saudis? Where was the Outrage when the Saudis were the only privledged group allowed to depart US Airspace a day following 9/11 without questioning? Where was the Outrage? Better to focus our energy on a country like Communist China(no free democratic elections there either)where they flood our markets with cheap products, throwing many US workers out on the street. Better to tell our President and Congress to use the Bully Pulpit and tell the Chinese to float their Currency or lose the US Market. This would solve two serious US problems; it would level the import-export playing field and help maintain US Jobs. Now this Really is an Outrage, what China has been allowed to do the US Economically and Yet, the same old question, Where is the Outrage???,,,Like a broken record,,,At least we are on a level playing field export/import wise with Venezuela and as a result, there presently is record trading(surging actually) between Venezuela and the USA(look at what we do, not what we say),,,

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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podborski says on Feb 20, 2007, 16:23:

and like a broken record I repeat the USA should stay out of venezuela's business and everyone else's too. Who's saying they should interfere, invade or whatever?

As for me, I'm just predicting Chavez's policies cause an economic disaster and he'll use more and more force on his people to keep himself in power.

That's all.

Nothing to do with Bush, the USA, China, or even poor old zimbabwe.

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miamimike says on Feb 20, 2007, 16:35:

Why NO Collective Outrage at the Chinese? As you stated, you are an Economist by training, I am surprised you aren't outraged by the HUGE Dollar drain that has occurred the last 5 years or so -that "Giant Sucking Sound" as Ross Perot mentioned in 1992 only this time from the USA to China,,,China last I knew was was a Socialistic Communist regime and also uses much more force to keep their people in line then Venezuela. I cite the Tinnamen Square Student Masacre as evidence of what happens when the Chinese Population gets out of line; Has that happened yet in Venezuela I ask?

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 20, 2007, 17:52:

Refugees I don't quite understand why the hypothetical scenario of a massive flood of refugees from Venezuela to the US is taken seriously at all. Aside from what miamimike mentions, I don't see ANY sign of average Venezuelans fleeing the country the way, say, Colombians were at least until recently--and that wasn't quite an exodus either, if compared to the massive internal displacement that Colombia is experiencing and that, after 6 years, the Uribe administration has not made a dent on.

EVEN in the unlikely scenario of having millions of Venezuelans trying to flee their country because, I don't know, Chavez is finally transformed into the giant alien spider that he really is? Or whatever other reason, EVEN in that situation... why and how would people end up in the US? Maybe a few will make it, but most of them would probably prefer the land of milk and honey where Uribe will deliver us in his third term.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 20, 2007, 18:08:

Cutting zeros Podborski,

I'm going to leave points 2 through 7 as they are. Anyone interested--I doubt it--can read and make his/her own judgment.

But let me go back to point 1, the reason for this thread:

You said "many other nations have played this game [cutting zeros from their currency] with the same sad 'result'"

I said that that is actually a pretty conventional response to inflation. I'm sure you are aware that this is never meant, as far as I've seen it, to curtail inflation, but generally for accounting purposes. So I was hoping that you would elaborate, but instead you said:

"I am fully aware that many other nations have done this, that's exactly my point (sic): It didn't work! I just thought maybe people would have learned from history by now, but I guess not."

So, I'm a bit confused. What exactly do you mean by the "sad result"? What "didn't work"? I cannot seriously believe that you think that such policies are intended to alleviate inflation. Since you refer to "many nations" having done this, I'd appreciate a few examples where some deluded tyrant thought that by cutting zeros to its worthless currency suddenly it would become much stronger. The precedents that I know of are hardly from such Banana Republics, I'm talking about Mexico, Brazil, and Argentina. Even when I was a kid living in Peru, I experienced the sol-to-inti change, and even a naive kid like me understood what this was meant for. Even the Banco de la Republica in Colombia, just a decade ago, considered cutting zeros from the Colombian peso; it was probably the absence of high inflation what made them reconsider.

So, would you care to elaborate on just this point? I'd like to know what is the lesson from history that the largest nations in LatAm have not learned?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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miamimike says on Feb 21, 2007, 17:47:

Sr Tertius The Venezuelanos Fleeing Caracas For The Moment and up until now are mostly the wealthy Stratus 6+ types. You see a small minority of the Venezuelan underclass here in Miami but the Loud vocal group are the upperclass who have the most to lose under Chavez. A Number of Venezuelanos in the underclass have actually formed a Miami Chapter of The Boliviano Red Circle(ardent chavez followers) and have clashed with the Right wing Cubans. A large fight broke amongst them in Little Havana a few weeks ago at a Protest over Cuban Terrorist Luis Posada Carriles who is being detained by US Immigration in El Paso, Texas. What angers them(these Caracas Socialite Elitists) is they have lost their suckling position at the breast of the Government Teat with Chavez's ascension to power. Key Biscayne is full of them, Economic Refugees as they like to refer to themselves. LOL BTW, I believe Ecuador was in the same position as Brazil, Mexico and Argentina when they Adapted the Dollar as their currency,,,

BTW, if economic conditions are so dire in Venezuela how does one account for the record sale of Luxury Cars&SUVs, Condos, High end Home appliances, Heavy construction equipment, Computers ect and in general Record setting Exports to Caracas the last few years Chavez has been in power?? Who is doing the buying?

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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goin_south says on Feb 21, 2007, 21:24:

Wasn't it I-pod, who said 'within 3 more years'.... for the down for the downfall of Venezuela and Chavez?
I think that is a bit premature, if what Mr Hollywood writes is true, about all the sells records of high end stuff. I think I would give 'em about 7 to 10 years. But, then... I am liberal when it comes to giving, as some would agree... like my 'personal' taximan in Medellin. Disculpa, Dongringo, but I must give what my heart tells me to give.

Paz y prosperidad para Colombia.

Ciao! Gustav.

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aztec says on Feb 22, 2007, 08:05:

"BTW, if economic conditions are so dire in Venezuela how does one account for the record sale of Luxury Cars&SUVs, Condos, High end Home appliances, Heavy construction equipment, Computers ect and in general Record setting Exports to Caracas the last few years Chavez has been in power?? Who is doing the buying?" miamimike

When the monetary unit (peso) starts on a downward spiral people rush out and place their liquid assets in hard items such as apartments.

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miamimike says on Feb 22, 2007, 10:02:

Aztec,Its not only Apartments, use Google and you will see the export of all High end Consumer Goods are Surging at record highs from Europe, China and the USA to Venezuela so again, who is doing the Buying if Conditions are so dire?? The Venezuelan Economy certainly isn't contracting,,,

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 26, 2007, 21:23:

HOLY SHIT, ELFELIZ! So, I asked my very gringa girlfriend about the Chavez thing. She claims to have little knowledge of the man, or care very little for politics, but says "no surprise."

(as far as I can reconstruct from memory)

Me: What do you mean?
Her: Americans have a collective trauma [she likes the psychobabble] from the Cold War. "Be afraid!" "The bad guys are gonna kill ya!" That kind of shit. It's an inherent inability to relax, to live and let live.
Me: Ow, c'mon, can't be that bad.
Her: You kiddin' me? Swear to God, my parents thought that the Vietnamese were gonna show up in their front door and shoot'em up. They were freaking afraid!
Me: No way.

(a few days later)

Her: Remember our conversation? Check this out. [after the intro, click on the girl]
Me: FUCKING UNREAL!!

Now, elfeliz, I don't know how old you are, but if anybody here is old enough to remember this stuff... is this for real? I mean, if I saw that in my TV I'd be peeing my pants. It puts this whole Chavez-Iran-AlQaeda-Castro-NorthKorea-DixieChicks paranoia in a whole different light to me.

P.S. Podborski, are you there? Whenever you get some time, please answer my question.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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goin_south says on Feb 26, 2007, 21:38:

.

Ciao! Gustav.

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goin_south says on Feb 26, 2007, 21:40:

sr tertius.... finally. you get a glimpse of reality.

Nawwwh. I don't think that is my generation's perspective, but for sure, that of the one ahead of us, and most definitely the one ahead of them.

'They' have/had a closed mind. 'We' have an open mind. To change. Or, I Wouldn't be fokin going to Colombia and giving a shit about the whole damned place and people.

But, one thing is for sure: if I was Colombian, from Colombia, and gave the rat's ass about it that you attempt to demonstrate by your ranting... I WOULD GET MY A** BACK DOWN THERE IN A HURRY and do something about it.

Ciao! Gustav.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 26, 2007, 21:59:

How about next Sunday? Although, unfortunately, I'll have to leave again in two weeks. Elfeliz: I don't try to demonstrate anything with my "ranting" except that some people talk more crap than they shit. I always draw a clear line between talking and doing. This is my talking (which I aspire it to be articulate and informed)... my doing is a whole other business. Had I stayed in Colombia I would probably be doing less "about it" than I do now.

P.S. What generation are you? I mean, my gf's parents were pretty young in the 60s, so I don't know what you mean by "my generation." I'm glad you are open minded and care about Colombia in your own way. Keep it that way.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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podborski says on Feb 27, 2007, 17:47:

I'm back but really busy these days, and tired of wasting my time, but here goes.

So sr t you're telling me you (and Chavez) expect no result as far as inflation fighting goes from this announcement/accounting change?

So Chavez calls a press conference and announces this change to take place on the anniversary of his failed coup or whatever, a special date, and he talks about all the things he will do to fight inflation at the same time, but this 'accounting change' is not expected to do anything?

Riiiiggghhht.

By the way, I consider a 'sad result' one that does not achieve anything or has opposite results to that intended.

Now I'll let you get back to your fantasy world where shuffling papers is more important than finding the source of problems and doing something REAL to fix them.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 27, 2007, 23:20:

3-sec research This is what Chavez said (from El Clarín)--it wasn't a press conference, btw, and took me 3 secs to find it:



So there it is: The so-called "academics" are... well, Chavez himself! His first point explicitly points out what I said: That it is an accounting procedure. Points two and three are what you attributed "preemptively" to the "academic members of PBH": Confidence in the currency and expectation effects, i.e., bullshit.

See how fact checking solves disputes? Well, at least I learned a bit more about what Chavez is doing... a mixed bag for sure, but less simplistic than what you make it look. I'm not interested that much anyway: I'm too busy "shuffling papers" in my personal quest to reduce Venezuelan inflation (??).

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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goin_south says on Feb 27, 2007, 23:51:

but, it's clear; U definitely are FULL OF YOURSELF.
Hope you don't choke on it.

Ciao! Gustav.

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podborski says on Feb 28, 2007, 14:52:

so you didn't want to paste even a whole sentence from the article huh sr t? I'll do so below and provide the link to the article too. It's pretty clear (for those not in severe denial).

I don't mind spending time debating people honestly, but you are clearly unworthy of being taken even half seriously. Don't be surprised if I put you on 'ignore' from here on in.

Here's the REAL article:

CARACAS.- En otra muestra de la gran inquietud que desata en el gobierno venezolano la suba generalizada de los precios, el presidente Hugo Chávez propuso ayer eliminar a partir de febrero de 2008 tres ceros de la moneda local, el bolívar, para lograr un efecto psicológico positivo tendiente a abatir la elevada inflación del país, que cerró en un 17% en 2006 y que llegó al 2% el mes pasado.

La medida forma parte del programa de reformas para implementar el socialismo en Venezuela que Chávez planea aplicar en su país durante su tercer mandato, que se inició en enero pasado. Se anuncio un día después de haber informado el presidente, que goza de poderes especiales, de la inminente aprobación de un decreto ley que penalizará "el acaparamiento y la especulación" con la inhabilitación de comercios y hasta LA NACIONalización de los establecimientos que no cumplan con los precios regulados gubernamentales.

And the link:

http://www.lanacion.com.ar/archivo/nota.asp?nota_id=884417&origen=acumulado&acumulado_id=

Yeah, nothing to do with inflation, that's the ticket...

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 28, 2007, 16:41:

Podborski, Tinto Podborski: Your level of animosity is unbelievable. I tell you that YOU WERE ESSENTIALLY RIGHT on one point--the very same point that you are making!--and you say I have a severe case of denial? Maybe some chamomile tea will help you. I still think that Chavez's reasoning is not representative of currency changes in other countries, but that's just based on my experience.

Tinto: I don't know, maybe it's a cultural difference, but I was never exposed in my life to anything like that ad. I had nightmares with that the other night. That doesn't mean that they are important, maybe they aren't, but I think they reflect something, I'm not sure. I'm just fishing for explanations for the Chavez paranoia. "Reefer Madness" is an AWESOME movie, btw, I love how people danced in the 30's when they were on dope!

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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cali373 says on Feb 28, 2007, 17:20:

And I thought reefer madness had to do with smoking weed?

Smile if you are a thinker!

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andresote says on Feb 28, 2007, 18:32:

Reefer... maaaaadnessssss Everyone knows you shouldn't smoke reefer - it'll make you paranoid, and you'll start seeing commies under the bed, viet cong at the door, weapons of mass destruction in the back yard and Hugo Chavez coming down the chimney to steal your Christmas presents...

...
todo en la vida se paga

el mundo da vueltas y lo que haces puede recaer en ti mas tarde... todo en la vida se paga

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andresote says on Feb 28, 2007, 18:36:

Or should that be Fidel Coming down the chimney? The beard makes for a better image...
...
todo en la vida se paga

el mundo da vueltas y lo que haces puede recaer en ti mas tarde... todo en la vida se paga

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Monpirri says on Feb 28, 2007, 18:46:

That's a pretty girl! That's a pretty girl, and she likes to chew gum also. Como se llama?

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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Sr Tertius says on Mar 2, 2007, 21:56:

Cultural difference alright... I see, sort of, where it comes from. Neither me nor my parents were exposed to Cold War propaganda of that kind, although I remember being told that the M-19 [or your insurgency du jour] people were souless monsters that ate children's fingers for breakfast. A different type of propaganda, certainly very distant from the fear of total annihilation. In our case the propaganda has mutated to not so different forms--nobody fears for the existence of the Colombian state, but insurgents are, in certain circles, still closer in phylum to alien insects than to human beings.

Is there something similar going on in the US relative to the Cold War? It would make a lot of sense of various things I've seen here, from the response to 9/11 (I expected anything but patriotism... just look at how lame the Uribe administration looked when attempting to imitate that reaction in the El Nogal bombing), to a sign I saw around Amarillo ("UN-free zone"), to the constant news of nuclear proliferation (certainly something to worry, but I mean...), to Chavez.

If you ask me, it all seems kind of silly to me.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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athensugadawg says on Mar 18, 2007, 20:41:

The "Bolivar Fuerte".... and the struggle to rein in the evil known as capitalism continues...

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/18/world/americas/18venezuela.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

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aztec says on Mar 26, 2007, 04:40:

The march continues... ..."Venezuela's Chavez announces plans for 'collective property' under shift toward socialism"

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/03/25/america/LA-GEN-Venezuela-Chavez.php

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cali373 says on Mar 26, 2007, 08:41:

Here is the entire article since the NY times full view of the article expired. I don;t know What I would do without the library system. Who would have thought public entities would be so resourceful.

Copyright 2007 The New York Times Company
The New York Times

March 18, 2007 Sunday
Late Edition - Final

SECTION: Section 1; Column 3; Foreign Desk; Pg. 10

LENGTH: 1254 words

HEADLINE: Venezuela to Give Currency New Name and Numbers

BYLINE: By SIMON ROMERO; Daniel Cancel contributed reporting.

DATELINE: CARACAS, Venezuela, March 17

BODY:


Of all the startling measures announced by President Hugo Chavez this year, from the nationalization of major utilities to threats of imprisonment for violators of price controls, none have baffled economists quite like his venture into monetary reform.

First, Mr. Chavez said the authorities would remove three zeroes from the denomination of the currency, the bolivar. Then he said the new bolivar, worth 1,000 old bolivars, would be renamed the ''bolivar fuerte,'' or strong bolivar.

Finally, at the behest of Mr. Chavez, the central bank said this week that it would reintroduce a 12.5-cent coin, a symbol of Venezuela's prosperity in the 1960s and 1970s before freewheeling oil booms ended in abrupt devaluations, after three decades out of circulation.

Mr. Chavez champions these ideas, which will take effect in January, as ways to combat inflation, which in recent weeks crept up to 20 percent, the highest in Latin America. Officials blame ''hoarders'' for shortages of basic goods and price increases for food on the black market. Mr. Chavez says the renaming and redenominating the currency will instill confidence in it.

Gaston Parra, the president of the central bank, went on television this week to emphasize that the effect of these measures on the value of Venezuela's currency would be neutral, neither increasing or decreasing salaries, debts nor the price of consumer goods.

Private economists, however, say the changes, combined with inflation, could heighten confusion over prices. Those economists say the inflation is a result of a surge in public spending by Mr. Chavez and increasingly jittery efforts by the wealthy to circumvent tightening controls on prices and foreign exchange.

''We're witnessing policy in the form of window dressing, all carried out at the whim of one man whose strong point is not economics,'' said Hugo Faria, an economist at the Institute of Higher Management Studies, a private business school here. ''Anyone who sees a 12 1/2-cent coin as a remedy for this country's problems isn't thinking too clearly.''

Inflation has been climbing rapidly since January when a sharp decline in the black-market value of the bolivar pushed up prices of imported goods. Since Mr. Chavez moved to nationalize major telephone and electricity companies in January, Venezuelans have rushed to take money out of the country, currency traders say. That exodus has caused the bolivar to weaken by about 20 percent to a level of 4,000 to the dollar on the black market, placing it among the world's worst performing currencies this year.

The decisions to rename the currency and reintroduce the unusual coin, known here as the locha, a term thought to derive from an anachronistic practice of dividing monetary units into eighths, have dumbfounded many Venezuelans. More than a third of the country's population of 26 million is under age 18, with no memory of the coin, which stopped circulating in the 1970s.

''I think that it's cheap psychology,'' said Jhonny Marquez, a manager at a transportation company. ''I don't believe the inflation will go down.''

Still, Mr. Chavez, 52, waxes nostalgic about the coin. Citing ''the respect Venezuela's economy has around the world'' in a transmission of his television talk show this month in which he announced the coin's return, Mr. Chavez said, ''We're going to end monetary instability in Venezuela.''

Mr. Chavez has said that redenominating the currency would reflect the economic strength that has been regained during his administration, ending a slide of the bolivar that began in 1983.

Other countries have renamed their currencies in an effort to increase confidence in their economies, but economists say such moves need to be accompanied by a display of strong economic fundamentals and transparent rules for investment by private industry.

In many respects, Venezuela has strong fundamentals, with more than $30 billion in foreign currency reserves and large inflows of revenue from oil exports this year, which are expected to surpass $50 billion. But economists say confidence in the economy has started to erode since the government began to aggressively assert control over the activities of foreign companies in recent months. The de facto devaluation of the bolivar in street trading illustrates the growing concern.

Economic historians here say the 12.5-cent coin was a descendant of a 2.5-cent coin introduced in the 1870s when the country's currency was called the venozolano. The denomination was changed to 12.5 cents when the bolivar, named in honor of the Caracas-born liberation hero Simon Bolivar, was introduced.

''At least they're not calling the new currency the venecuba,'' said Antonio Alessandrini, the owner of Globus, a Caracas company that deals in rare coins, a reference to Venezuela's alliance with Cuba. ''Maybe these changes will create an uptick in our business.''

Symbolism has long been a priority for Mr. Chavez, whose presidency began in 1999. For instance, after emerging victorious from a strike that had reduced Venezuela's oil exports in 2002 and 2003, he renamed the tankers that had dropped anchor to harden the strike. Gone were the names of Venezuelan beauty queens, replaced with names of Simon Bolivar's servant and his lover.

Some historians see in Mr. Chavez's newest financial measures a parallel with changes made by Cuba when Che Guevara became president of the Cuban central bank after the overthrow of the strongman Fulgencio Batista. Cuba issued currency with new iconography, including a five-peso bill with the image of Antonio Maceo, an Afro-Cuban independence leader.

Mr. Parra, of the central bank, said that iconic changes were in store for the bolivar fuerte. Officials at the central bank have defended the various monetary changes, including the reintroduction of the 12.5-cent coin, saying it would prevent consumers from having their purchases rounded up by merchants.

''Bringing memories of a past when the currency was strong may create the hope that the currency's strong again,'' said Fernando Coronil, an authority on Venezuelan history at the University of Michigan. ''But if this does not match the real strength of the economy, these measures could backfire.''

By focusing on financial symbolism, economists say, Mr. Chavez is avoiding moves needed to thwart more erosion in the value of the bolivar. Public spending soared 48 percent last year to about $53 billion after the government lavished bonuses on civil servants and spent more on social welfare programs.

With oil prices at historically high levels, Venezuela's economy is still growing at an enviable rate of about 10 percent a year, but economists say inflation is fueled in part by haphazard policies that prioritize consumption over saving. For instance, car sales are up 49.5 percent this year, according to the Cavenez automobile industry chamber.

Mr. Chavez's reintroduction of the coin invokes a period when Venezuela enjoyed large foreign investment and remarkable price stability. A common response then to the question ''how are you?'' was ''en la lucha por la locha,'' an expression revolving around the coin, meaning roughly ''struggling to make a buck.''

Mr. Chavez has no intention of limiting his attempts at monetary reform to Venezuela. ''One day in Latin America we will have our own currency,'' he said on his television show, and he proposed naming it after Antonio Jose de Sucre, a Venezuelan aristocrat and independence fighter who was a friend of Bolivar's.

URL: http://www.nytimes.com

GRAPHIC: Photo: Antonio Alessandrini, who owns a coin dealership, holds up a locha, worth 12.5 Venezuelan cents. It has been out of circulation for years. (Photo by Joaquin Ferrer for The New York Times)

LOAD-DATE: March 18, 2007

Smile if you are a thinker!

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cali373 says on Mar 26, 2007, 08:50:

Agrarian reform was needed decades ago, however I have to agree with the statement from the opposition leader that investement is needed to make land productive.

Colombia sure as hell needs agrarian reform not to mention another look at property rights. Please do nget me wrong, I am not suggesting Colombia follow the path toward socialism.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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podborski says on Mar 26, 2007, 13:21:

jacinto? is that you? or has someone stolen your identity? How can you make a post like that? I can't disagree with even one little bit. There's no fun in that! :)

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aztec says on Apr 3, 2007, 03:14:

"The Long March " continues! "Venezuela Could Nationalize Hospitals"

"Any private hospital that doesn't comply with the regulations that are made, if necessary, will have to be nationalized," Chavez said during a speech at the presidential palace. "We cannot allow there to be a shameless looting using such important services as health."

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/w-sa/2007/apr/02/040201210.html

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podborski says on Apr 3, 2007, 06:46:

it's textbook socialist behaviour make a law or regulation against every type of human behaviour you don't like, then when the rules are found to be impossible to follow, nationalize, put people in jail, basically make everyone a criminal.

Next phase: economy collapses, blame America/capitalism, stifle critics, the press, then the real fun begins.

There will be a lot more poor venezolanas looking for gringos soon.

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Sr Tertius says on Apr 3, 2007, 20:55:

Yeah! Like them fockin' socialist Chileans! Who are leading Latin America in virtually every index of economic development.

http://www.tcgnews.com/santiagotimes/index.php?nav=story&story_id=10585&topic_id=1

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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