Chavez warned of 'river of blood'

billyb says on Dec 5, 2007, 06:09:

So like most of us suspected, it wasn't his "democratic instincts" that made Chavez concede, but rather his fear of another military coup.

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john_stark says on Dec 5, 2007, 06:13:

Too bad. Il Duce's days are numbered.

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billyb says on Dec 5, 2007, 06:17:

I'd like to see him end his days hanging upside down like the original.

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Gator says on Dec 5, 2007, 07:14:

Sniff, Sniff, I smell a military golpe or a possible coup d'état.

"Credidi pretio parvo emere et magno vendere tibi in animo fuisse!" .

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 5, 2007, 07:49:

oh, poo-hoo! Taking hearsay way to seriously. I wouldn't trust shit from the Ven media, given its record. And to give credit to Chavez, when he could've hang the opposition for high treason during the coup, he didn't. I don't see why this time it would be any different.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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podborski says on Dec 5, 2007, 07:52:

impossible! I read right here on PBH that Hugo was a really nice guy, just like the PM of England in fact

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billyb says on Dec 5, 2007, 08:03:

Chavez and his supporters seem to forget he launched an unsuccesful coup himself in '92, maybe they should have hung him then for high treason.

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Dec 5, 2007, 08:04:

Maybe that's part of the problem, places like Venezuela and Colombia DON'T hang people for treason or other crimes. They just let them retire with their big pensions at an early age. They don't have a problem with state sanctioned torture, dirty wars and extra-judicial murder (most of the continent) or a 200 year history of slaughtering each other (Colombia) but fall back on the "good Catholic" thing when capital punishment comes up. Think about the example it would set if the head of Colombia's highway dept was executed a couple of years ago for giving free passage to the narcos, or if the various government and military officials that are/were in bed with the illegal groups were strung up.

-Dr. Evil

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ColombianoGringo says on Dec 5, 2007, 08:15:

Tinto is right on the money. Colombia really needs to have a death penalty for certain crimes. It is insane that narcos, paras, guerrilleros and corrupt military can get away with slaps on the wrist for massacres, kidnappings, bombings and the rest of their fun pastimes.

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elmodefoque says on Dec 5, 2007, 08:16:

nojoda pero ese chavez si habla mierda!!

ASK NOT WHAT THE PUSSY CAN DO FOR YOU, BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR THAT PUSSY!!!!!!!!!! CAT LOVER

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elmodefoque says on Dec 5, 2007, 08:17:

el man! a mi en verdad no me cae tan mal como quien dice, pero hay punto cuando la mierda se pone un poco muy pesa

ASK NOT WHAT THE PUSSY CAN DO FOR YOU, BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR THAT PUSSY!!!!!!!!!! CAT LOVER

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elmodefoque says on Dec 5, 2007, 08:21:

dique river of blood, rio de mierda sera!
venezolanos son pendejos, no tienen las bolas pa guerra, solo se tiran piedra y ya?

ASK NOT WHAT THE PUSSY CAN DO FOR YOU, BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR THAT PUSSY!!!!!!!!!! CAT LOVER

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elmodefoque says on Dec 5, 2007, 08:22:

como se que venezonlanos son pendejos.
soy venezolano tambien.

ASK NOT WHAT THE PUSSY CAN DO FOR YOU, BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR THAT PUSSY!!!!!!!!!! CAT LOVER

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 5, 2007, 08:26:

That's what you seem to be suggesting from your post. Fortunately Andres Perez and Hugo Chavez have both been more civil and generous to their adversaries. I don't think that Chavez forgot his coup, on the contrary, maybe because he remembers it, he has been more careful.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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hongo_joe says on Dec 5, 2007, 09:04:

What has Chavez or the Venezuelans ever done to the US except insult a president that most Americans don't seem to like much anymore either? I've always heard Chavez make a clear distinction between the American people (he likes) and the current US admin.

Why is it any business of the US what the hell happens in Venezuela. The US should just stay out of other countries and save yourselves a lot of problems

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billyb says on Dec 5, 2007, 09:16:

"Why is it any business of the US what the hell happens in Venezuela"

One word, oil! Rightly, or wrongly that is what it boils down to.

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billyb says on Dec 5, 2007, 09:47:

It's not taking long for the real Chavez to show his face.


Chávez dijo que fue una "victoria de mierda" la de la oposición en el referendo del domingo pasado

Información relacionada
Diarios de E.U. elogian actitud de los venezolanos ante el referendo chavista "Reforma no se puede imponer por vías distintas a la Constituyente", dice ex ministro Baduel (La W) "No podemos asumir posiciones triunfalistas. Esto es un comienzo" dijo el ex Ministro de Defensa venezolano Raúl Baduel (La W) "Triunfó la democracia y triunfó el civismo", aseguró el general Baduel (La W) El mandatario venezolano reiteró que la reforma constitucional será sometida otra vez al veredicto electoral y negó que los militares lo hayan presionado para reconocer la derrota.

Sus afirmaciones las hizo en una rueda de prensa del alto mando militar, convocada por los jefes del Ejército, la Marina, la Aviación, la Guardia Nacional (policía militarizada), para rechazar las versiones de que presionaron al gobernante para que admitiera el revés electoral.

Durante la rueda de prensa, los miembros del alto mando militar gritaron la consigna de "patria, socialismo o muerte" para dejar claro su respaldo a Chávez.

El mandatario venezolano había dicho anoche en un programa nocturno de televisión que él no insistiría en la reforma Constitucional pero que el Parlamento o un grupo de ciudadanos sí podrían hacerlo.

"Ya vendrá la nueva ofensiva" en busca de un próximo intento electoral, dijo el mandatario.

"No crean nuestros adversarios que estamos llorando, habrá que decirles, sobre todo al imperio norteamericano, que estamos más
fuertes que nunca y seguiremos adelante construyendo el socialismo [...] porque no hemos perdido nada", manifestó el mandatario venezolano Hugo Chávez en alusión a la derrota que archivó su propuesta de modificar la Carta Magna.

La llamada de Chávez se extendió por unos 45 minutos y
concluyó en la madrugada de hoy.

"El pueblo tiene la capacidad de tomar mi iniciativa y modificarla para que sea más fácil su entendimiento, siempre y cuando
mantenga el objetivo principal, que es la transformación del Estado", indicó.

Pero la Carta Política de 1999 que infructuosamente intentó modificar a través del referendo que perdió el domingo, en su afán de avanzar en su proyecto de "socialismo del siglo XXI", establece que una "iniciativa de reforma constitucional que no sea aprobada no podrá presentarse de nuevo en un mismo período constitucional".

Sin embargo, algunas las propuestas de la reforma podrían ser aprobadas por Chávez con los poderes especiales que obtuvo del
Parlamento para legislar, y podría convocarse una Asamblea Nacional Constituyente.

La Carta Magna también establece que "la iniciativa de la reforma
de esta Constitución podrán tomarla", además del jefe de Estado, la unicameral Asamblea Nacional, "mediante acuerdo aprobado por el voto de la mayoría de sus integrantes"; o los electores, con "un número no menor del 15%" del universo electoral, hoy conformado por un poco más de 16 millones de venezolanos.

"La propuesta de reforma sigue [...] Es cierto que en este período constitucional yo ya perdí el derecho a presentar otra como iniciativa mía, pero el pueblo tiene la potestad y el derecho de
presentar, si así lo quiere, una solicitud antes de que termine este período, al que le falta cinco años", recordó.

"Quienes ya andan por ahí diciendo que la revolución sufrió una derrota, pues déjenme decirles que ahora es que la revolución está
fortificada, la revolución bolivariana llegó para quedarse", subrayó Chávez.

El presidente se refirió también a los chavistas que no apoyaron el referendo y opinó que "el pueblo que dejó de votar o votó en contra de la reforma por una molestia o un descontento, pues votó en contra sí mismo".

Chávez rechazó, además, los llamados a la reconciliación que
insistentemente hacen los ganadores del referendo, y los exhortó a
"evaluar su pírrica, porque hay que decírselos en la cara, su pírrica victoria" que, añadió, bien pudo ser a su favor.

"Si se hubiera terminado de contar (hasta el último voto), esto
hubiera terminado en empate técnico [...] y quien sabe si recontando nosotros hubiéramos ganado [...], pero yo tomé la decisión, sin presiones de ningún tipo, de optar por la derrota ideal", sostuvo.

"Opté por una derrota ideal. Bueno, no digamos ideal, opté por la
mejor forma de ser derrotados (por estrecho margen), antes que optar por una victoria catastrófica o la posibilidad de una victoria
catastrófica [...] y por eso dije 'no quiero una victoria en estas
condiciones'", remarcó.

Escrutado el 97% de los votos, el triunfo del "No" a la reforma constitucional se selló con el voto a favor de esa opción de 4,5 de los 8,8 millones de personas que votaron en el referendo, que registró una abstención de 7,2 millones de electores.

Los votos por el 'Sí' representan tres millones menos que los
obtenidos por Chávez para su reelección presidencial, hace exactamente un año.

CARACAS (Efe y AFP)

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 5, 2007, 09:53:

Read it twice, and can't see where he said that it was a "victoria de mierda"

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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billyb says on Dec 5, 2007, 09:55:

That was the headline of the article in El Tiempo. I didn't make it up.

http://www.eltiempo.com/internacional/latinoamerica/noticias/ARTICULO-...

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miamimike says on Dec 5, 2007, 10:42:

"Rome fell because of political correctness and because of decay from within, and Liberalism. We also need to wake up. We do not want to end up like Europe, which is a nanny state full of fearful appeasers."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dogman--Ancient Rome fell for many reasons, many of which you haven't listed! For Instance: Military deployed way too thin in distant lands thereby breaking the Military, Disease, Migration, Their Money at the end was worthless(Gold Flight-nothing to back it up) See any parallels between Ancient Rome and ANOTHER Modern Country?? LOL

http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/romefallarticles/a/fallofrome.htm

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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Plato says on Dec 5, 2007, 11:08:

Billyb - good thread.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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miamimike says on Dec 5, 2007, 12:13:

esanch36==Curious about something. Why didn't the US ever "Stick their/our Nose into Cuba??,,,We had a lot of interests there,,,which we created,,,Why don't we go in and Bomb Cuba for the same reasons,,,

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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Albatross says on Dec 5, 2007, 12:23:

"The US needs to start acting like a superpower again. Rome fell because of political correctness and because of decay from within, and Liberalism. We also need to wake up. We do not want to end up like Europe, which is a nanny state full of fearful appeasers."

Earth to dogman - there is no greater "fearful nanny state" than the good 'ole U.S. of A.

And what exactly does "acting like a superpower" mean - invading any country any damn time we feel like it ?

Superpowers balance their budgets... and stem their trade deficits.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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slguy says on Dec 5, 2007, 12:32:

"Superpowers balance their budgets... and stem their trade deficits."

With the exception of a few years in the 90's, when did ANY superpower have a balanced budget OR no trade deficit?

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Albatross says on Dec 5, 2007, 12:40:

Those few years in the 90's were the last time we were an unequivical economic superpower.
And while many economists argue that a modest trade deficit is not a problem, I've yet to find a reputable economist who thinks that the current astronomical U.S. trade deficit is anything other than an impending disaster. Factor in the falling dollar, the Social Security crisis, the insane cost of the Iraq war, ect. and we'll be lucky to escape bankruptcy.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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slguy says on Dec 5, 2007, 12:56:

I never said that balanced budgets and even trade are not good goals- I just said that historically, superpowers have rarely, if ever, actually had both. You wanted to imply, apparently, that these two things are prerequisites.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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billyb says on Dec 5, 2007, 13:26:

Here are some more rantings from our manic-depressive friend next door, so much for a "classy" acceptance of defeat, jajaja.


INTERNACIONAL
A dos días de felicitar a sus opositores, el presidente Chávez les dijo que habían obtenido “una victoria de mierda‿
Tras haber sido derrotado en las urnas, el jefe del Estado venezolano les advirtió este miércoles a sus opositores que se preparen porque “vendrá una segunda ofensiva rumbo a la reforma constitucional‿. Además, volvió a insultar al presidente Uribe.
Fecha: 12/05/2007 -
El talante democrático le duró muy poco al presidente Hugo Chávez, al menos en cuanto a respeto se refiere. Exactamente dos días. Ese es breve lapso que va del Chávez humilde que salió a reconocer su derrota electoral en el referendo con el que buscaba perpetuarse en el poder al Chávez de este miércoles que volvió a insultar a sus opositores. Sin embargo, en esta ocasión pasó todos los limites y utilizó palabras de grueso calibre: “Es una victoria de mierda‿.

El Chávez sosegado de las 2 de la mañana del lunes que compareció ante las cámaras de televisión quedó en el pasado. El del presente y futuro recordó su formación castrense y dijo que en los cuarteles: “Administren bien su pírrica victoria. Ellos no tienen cómo administrarla. Sea grande o pírrica, ya que, para eso hay que tener dignidad. Eso lo aprendimos en clase y luego en el campo de honor… en los estudios de la guerra. Honor al vencido y gloria al vencedor pero, para que haya gloria… un vencedor que no tenga cómo reconocer el honor no puede administrar la supuesta victoria‿.

En el mismo discurso de este miércoles llamó a sus seguidores a una “segunda ofensiva‿ para impulsar la reforma constitucional y descartó, en presencia del alto mando militar, haber recibido presiones de las Fuerzas Armadas para reconocer la derrota electoral del domingo, un rumor que ha corrido con fuerza en toda Venezuela. Según éste, el Chávez de la madrugada del lunes no salió por voluntad propia sino porque las Fuerzas Armadas lo presionaron para que aceptara el veredicto en las urnas. Chávez negó estas versiones y acusó a algunos opositores de querer generar malestar en los cuarteles.

A Chávez nadie lo presiona

¿Y ahora qué hacemos con Chávez?
“A Chávez se le subió el petróleo a la cabeza‿
Pelea para largo
Descanse, solo perdió el invicto. Mañana será otro día
¿Y si le da por romper?...
Chávez hizo sus afirmación junto a la cúpula militar de su país.
“Es absolutamente falso que hayamos presionado a nuestro comandante en jefe‿, dijo el ministro de la Defensa, general Gustavo Rangel Briceño, al desmentir informaciones de prensa, y sostuvo que al presidente “nadie lo presiona‿.

Y como el referendo ya es para él una situación pasada ahora tomará otros caminos para impulsar el socialismo del siglo XXI en su país. “Prepárense porque vendrá una segunda ofensiva rumbo a la reforma constitucional‿, dijo Chávez, durante un encuentro con altos oficiales en el palacio presidencial al ratificar su plan para modificar la Carta Magna.

El gobernante afirmó que “si se recogen firmas esa reforma se puede someter‿ de nuevo a consulta popular. Fue entonces cuando utilizó el lenguaje más fuerte que se le ha escuchado en contra de la población de su país que votó para evitar su propuesta política. “Sepan administrar su victoria, pero ya la están llenando de mierda. Es una victoria de mierda, y la nuestra, llámenla derrota, pero es de coraje, es de valor, es de dignidad‿, les dijo a sus opositores.

Dijo que Baduel era un traidor

Chávez atacó de forma directa a su ex ministro de la Defensa, general retirado Raúl Baduel, al que acusó de incurrir en irrespeto, y denunció que “lo compró el imperio (Estados Unidos)‿.

Comparó a Baduel con el héroe de la independencia José Antonio Páez, al que calificó como un “traidor a la patria, traidor a los principios, traidor a un pueblo‿.

Rangel Briceño se sumó a las críticas contra Baduel, a quien le dijo: “Usted da pena, es el recuerdo de un general sin tropas, empequeñecido ante la magnanimidad de un hombre al que usted le pasó por encima sin contar con los valores de la lealtad y la amistad‿.
Baduel fue el jefe militar que le permitió a Chávez recuperar el poder luego del fallido golpe de 2002 y quien el mes pasado rompió con el mandatario al señalar que impulsaba una reforma constitucional que atentaba contra la democracia en Venezuela.

Victoria del imperio

En el discurso de este miércoles Chávez dijo que la votación en su contra no fue una decisión del pueblo venezolano sino del imperio norteamericano. Así, reiteró los ataques contra Estados Unidos, y aseguró que “el golpe‿ que recibió del “imperio‿ en la elección del domingo “ni me he debilitado un milímetro‿.

“Golpea imperio que aquí hay para aguantar. Sopla tempestades que tengo espacio, pueblo y militares patriotas para maniobrar imperio, tempestades, oligarquía apátrida. Golpea cuantas veces quieres, golpea‿, añadió.

Y es que Chávez sufrió el pasado domingo su primer revés electoral desde 1999 al ser rechazado por estrecha mayoría su proyecto de reforma constitucional que contemplaba la reelección indefinida y la extensión del mandato de seis a siete años.

Una situación que se produjo en momentos en que mantiene una difícil relación con el presidente colombiano ÿlvaro Uribe Vélez. Según relato de Chávez hubo una confusión en una nota de la cadena CNN con las imágenes de él y del presidente Uribe. Un hecho para él muy molesto porque lo habían confundido con el “lacayo‿ del imperio.

Con información de AP

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Plato says on Dec 5, 2007, 13:34:

I'm an economist. All I have to say is "It depends."

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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Plato says on Dec 5, 2007, 13:37:

BillyB - another great article man - thanks! What's the source of this latest one? It's damn funny. What a rant.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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billyb says on Dec 5, 2007, 13:40:

It's from Semana online, here's a link, they have a lot of good articles. Check out the one of how they captured the milicianos that carried the POLs.

http://www.semana.com/home.aspx

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hongo_joe says on Dec 5, 2007, 16:43:

Esanich 36: “Its bullshit if anybody says we shouldnt stick our nose in...we have Oil interests there...which WE created!!�

Who’s WE? You and some of your buds? I guess you mean some American Corporations (and GOD, I suppose). It seems that the corporatization (if that’s a word) of the US is complete – full identification. I doubt if Eisenhower imagined it would go this far. It’s pretty sad to see the corps and religious fundamentalists taking over the land of the free, spreading fear of everything.

You know, if they hadn’t stuck their noses in in the first place there wouldn’t be a problem at all. But if you feel that some Americans were short-changed in Venezuela, why not confiscate some of the many assets Venezuela has in the US, and walk away. I’m sure those corps have enough lawyers to take care of that.

The US doesn’t need Venezuela, leave them alone, and the rest of us too, please.

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 5, 2007, 19:12:

Billy,

If you dig into the report from El Tiempo, there's a link to the video where Chavez talks about the "victoria de mierda." I don't know what to make of it. Particularly the "patria, socialismo, o muerte" is kind of tacky, but it seems so... harmless? I don't know. I think that the press and some people try to paint him as a vicious, bloodthirsty thug. Nah! The guy is just a colorful tropico-authoritarian clown.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Dolfi says on Dec 6, 2007, 02:23:

Go on and send your military to Venezuela, another Iraq is guaranteed.

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aztec says on Dec 6, 2007, 04:17:

dogman, Because Colombians are our friends.

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elmodefoque says on Dec 6, 2007, 05:20:

dejen a chavez tranquilo, el man lo que habla es pura mierda!
mierda de pollo.

ASK NOT WHAT THE PUSSY CAN DO FOR YOU, BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR THAT PUSSY!!!!!!!!!! CAT LOVER

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podborski says on Dec 6, 2007, 08:49:

"The guy is just a colorful tropico-authoritarian clown"

yeah, like that other clown Castro, harmless. Created a nation that is a prison, but it's just all in fun, no big deal. No blood running in the streets. He's just a nice old guy, wouldn't hurt a fly. I dunno why we talk about these guys? We should just leave them alone to play their games. People don't need rights, they just abuse them anyway.

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elmodefoque says on Dec 6, 2007, 08:52:

you guys ever get mierda de pollo stuck between your toes. You have to find a little twig to dig it out

ASK NOT WHAT THE PUSSY CAN DO FOR YOU, BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR THAT PUSSY!!!!!!!!!! CAT LOVER

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slguy says on Dec 6, 2007, 10:14:

elmo- you know what that white stuff is in mierda de pollo?

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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elmodefoque says on Dec 6, 2007, 10:48:

sorry! cant say that i do.
la mierda is always very dark green with strips of white. never bother to find out what the white chit was, piss?

ASK NOT WHAT THE PUSSY CAN DO FOR YOU, BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR THAT PUSSY!!!!!!!!!! CAT LOVER

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slguy says on Dec 6, 2007, 11:17:

it's mierda, too. ;)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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elmodefoque says on Dec 6, 2007, 11:21:

JIJJJJJJIJ but why is it off white and the rest of the chit dark green.
maybe is not fully processed?

ASK NOT WHAT THE PUSSY CAN DO FOR YOU, BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR THAT PUSSY!!!!!!!!!! CAT LOVER

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Albatross says on Dec 6, 2007, 11:34:

Since this thread is going down the toilet anyway...

Two kids are in their rooms... one's room is full of toys the other is full of horse shit.
The kid in the room full of toys is whining because they're all gonna break eventually or somebody will take them.
The other kid is just as happy as a clam as he's digging through the manure... when asked why, he says:
"with all this crap, there's gotta be a pony in here somewhere ! "

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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slguy says on Dec 6, 2007, 11:38:

yet another serious thread taken out for a LONG walk. jajajajajjajajajajja

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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aztec says on Dec 6, 2007, 11:58:

Albatross, I bet you think no one here knows who is in the photo used as your avatar?

If memory serves me well, it is Jane Russell and the photo was in reference to the Howard Hughes movie "The Outlaw". The bra she is wearing was an engineering feat designed by Hughes himself.

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billyb says on Dec 6, 2007, 15:38:

The famous 18 hour bra!

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Robert Jorge says on Dec 6, 2007, 20:26:

"Europe is an enemy of the US" ??????? Ok, then you are including (and I am doing this from memory): Great Britain, Ireland, Iceland, Belgium, France, Germany, Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Belarus, Ukraine, Russia, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Bosnia Hertsogosomething, Italy, Monaco, Greece, Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, Luxemburg, Lichtenstein, Austria, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, Turkey, Slovenia, Croatia, Moldova, Yugoslavia, and I think that's it. A lot of our "cowardly enemies" are fighting along side us in the Mideast sir. My father is German. I got friends from most of the countries in Europe. You insulted me, my family, my friends, and a lot of people here on this site with your idiotic comments. I'll be waiting for an apology.

BEWARE of gold diggers.

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Robert Jorge says on Dec 6, 2007, 20:33:

By the way Dog, the Brits and the US killed upwards of 600,000 German civilians in city bombings during the final year of WWII. Sorry nukes weren't involved. Luckily for me, my dad survived.

BEWARE of gold diggers.

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Dolfi says on Dec 7, 2007, 01:08:

The whole world didn´t like the way you responded to 9/11, didn´t you notice that yet? Attacking a country that hadn´t anything to to with it and sparing your Saudi friends (15 of the 19 Terrorists of 9/11 where Saudis, not one Iraqi).

And you shouldn´t have any illusion about what people in Colombia think about americans. It´s just this extremely arrogant and rude attitude you are showing that makes you unpopular all over the world.

Go on, send your military to Venezuela, another catastrophe for the USA guaranteed.

But before that you will have to pay in Euros for your petrol, real money that is, so will have to earn it instead of printing like you did.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul358.html

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Albatross says on Dec 7, 2007, 04:48:

Aztec,
No problems with your memory, it is indeed Jane Russell c1943.
I have a particular affection for Film Noir... especially Bogart / Lorre / E.G. Robinson films.
Although I prefer Ingrid Bergman, Veronica Lake, Lana Turner, Lauren Bacall, and others... I came across this pic and just liked the shot and the style... and her famous attributes.

P.S. - She's famous for the 18 hour bra, but I sure don't see one in this pic.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Albatross says on Dec 7, 2007, 08:54:

1,000 year Reich

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Dec 7, 2007, 09:08:

Please take it to the "off topic" section if you want to re-fight World War II or any other war that doesn't involve Colombia. And don't make gross generalizations about the people from a country, it just leads to more arguments.

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billyb says on Dec 7, 2007, 12:32:

Chavez" communications minister says that the word "mierda" is part of Venezuela's national patrimony. That should really make Venezuelans swell with pride, jaja, what an embarrasment for that country.

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gatogris says on Dec 7, 2007, 13:01:

Even after selling off some of the oil refineries in Louisiana and Texas, and trying to get more oil over to China, the high sulfur-content oil Venezuela is shilling has got to go to the States for refining becuase of infrastructure. The U.S. is still by far Venezuela's no. 1 trading partner. Chavez is an unstable egoist, but there are enough people with a stake in the continuation of the game to tighten him up and make sure he knows which side of his bread is buttered. I have a Citgo card, don't you?

The sad truth is that Venezualan elites have a lot more in common with their U.S. counterparts than do the rich and poor in either country. Rah rah nationalistic bombast is just a load of malarkey fed to those who need it to make themselves feel better about their own lives. Meanwhile Hummers fly off lots in both countries while the squeeze gets tighter on those trying to make ends meet, while we bicker about "our" countries bloated with phony self-rightous pride that only serves to hide the true dynamics of power.

Bet hey, I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free, right? Viva el Revolucion Bolivariano!

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john_stark says on Dec 7, 2007, 17:28:

If I had a Citgo card, I'd take a dump on it and after it was smeared pretty good I'd mail it off to them. I've done similar things to large corporations all over the US. Sent them garbage, cow dung, horse manure, you name it. Always in their own prepaid mailers.

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slguy says on Dec 7, 2007, 17:29:

well, no one ever accused you of being a class act, I assume? jajajajajjajajjaja

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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john_stark says on Dec 7, 2007, 17:30:

Hell, they're lucky they don't have people barging into their offices and murdering the whole lot of them.

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billyb says on Dec 7, 2007, 23:41:

Attempted Theft
Hugo Chávez tried to overturn the results of Venezuela's recent vote but was rebuffed by the military.

By Jorge Castañeda | Newsweek Web Exclusive
Dec 7, 2007 | Updated: 4:23 p.m. ET Dec 7, 2007
Most of Latin America's leaders breathed a sigh of relief earlier this week, after Venezuelan voters rejected President Hugo Chávez's constitutional amendment referendum. In private they were undoubtedly relieved that Chávez lost, and in public they expressed delight that he accepted defeat and did not steal the election. But by midweek enough information had emerged to conclude that Chávez did, in fact, try to overturn the results. As reported in El Nacional, and confirmed to me by an intelligence source, the Venezuelan military high command virtually threatened him with a coup d'état if he insisted on doing so. Finally, after a late-night phone call from Raúl Isaías Baduel, a budding opposition leader and former Chávez comrade in arms, the president conceded—but with one condition: he demanded his margin of defeat be reduced to a bare minimum in official tallies, so he could save face and appear as a magnanimous democrat in the eyes of the world. So after this purportedly narrow loss Chávez did not even request a recount, and nearly every Latin American colleague of Chávez's congratulated him for his "democratic" behavior. Why did these leaders not speak out? Surely they knew of Chávez's machinations, and with the exception of Nicaragua's Daniel Ortega, Ecuador's Rafael Correa, Bolivia's Evo Morales and, to a large extent, the Argentine Kirchner duo, none of the region's heads of state sympathizes with the Venezuelan revolutionary.

The reason for the silence: these leaders know Chávez can count on a fifth column in nearly every country in the region. Even while he denounces the policies of his opponents and throws vitriol in every direction, he also uses his nation's resources to befriend their constituencies. These acolytes are devoted to his ideals and, more important, to his funding. They are boisterous, or powerful, or both, and they can make life miserable for governments ranging from the emblematic left (Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva in Brazil) to the liberal right (Mexico's Felipe Calderón or Colombia's Alvaro Uribe).

Over the years Chávez has picked fights, from north to south, with virtually every leader in the region. He called Calderón caballerito, "tin soldier," early this year and questioned his electoral victory last year. He said this month he would have no relationship with Colombia while Uribe, "the liar," was president. He accused the Brazilian senate of being a "Bush lapdog" and heaped scorn on anything Spanish under the sun, including the king, the government, the opposition and the banks. He warned two weeks ago that if the right-of-center opposition won next spring's election in Spain he would nationalize every Spanish corporation in Venezuela. He has meddled incessantly in his neighbors' affairs. With varying degrees of proof, stridency and significance, he is said to have interfered in the domestic politics of Mexico in last year's election, in El Salvador by funding the left-wing FMLN, and in Nicaragua by financing public works for Managua's Sandinista mayor, which led to Ortega's victory in the presidential vote. In Peru he openly backed radical nationalist Ollanta Humala in 2006. In Argentina he funded the Kirchners and the so-called piqueteros, or street fighters. He has meddled as well in Ecuador, Brazil, Bolivia and, of course, Colombia, where his intervention led to a breakdown in the international mediation efforts to free a number of hostages.

His changing relationship with Chile illustrates just how shrewd Chávez can be. Michelle Bachelet once showed a mystifying affection for Chávez, given his constant tirades against her country's legislative branch, junior government coalition partners and foreign ministry. But relations cooled after he disrupted the annual Ibero-American Summit in Santiago a month ago by picking a fight with the Spanish heads of state and government. Then, after the summit, he attended a "hard left" rally at a "hard left" Chilean university known as ARCIS. Upon learning the school had lost its government funding, he whipped out his checkbook and donated a huge sum of money to the school. In view of the $250 million to $300 million Venezuela receives per day from nearly $90-a-barrel oil prices, this was just small change. But while Bachelet was not entirely pleased with this turn of events, she preferred to keep her peace, leaving it to the Spaniards to finally say enough was enough. At the summit King Juan Carlos asked Chávez to "shut up." Such an outburst was long in coming, but it was not going to spring from fellow Latin Americans.

This meddling is the reason nobody pushes back, and it is hardly surprising that regional leaders applauded his "democratic" performance last week. Chávez is willing to disregard any accepted norm of international conduct and diplomatic etiquette. But for a variety of reasons his colleagues are not. Is this a sustainable stance for Latin democracy? Probably not, in the long term. This time the region was spared the lacerating choice of condemning Chávez for electoral fraud and provoking his petro-finance outbursts and meddling, or countenancing a stolen election by looking the other way. But it may be the last time Latin America's leaders are afforded such an easy exit.




Jorge Castañeda is Mexico’s former foreign minister and Global Distinguished Professor at New York University

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billyb says on Dec 7, 2007, 23:45:

So much for the charade of Chavez as a real "democrat".

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hongo_joe says on Dec 8, 2007, 05:36:

"Why did these leaders not speak out? Surely they knew of Chávez's machinations,"

"The reason for the silence: these leaders know Chávez can count on a fifth column in nearly every country in the region."


Ridiculous

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podborski says on Dec 8, 2007, 09:17:

but he's 'harmless' billyb, right up until (and likely after) he starts killing people.

there will always be apologists for dictators I guess.

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hongo_joe says on Dec 8, 2007, 09:25:

"there will always be apologists for dictators I guess"

If you are referring to me, you're completely wrong. I think he's a total hoop.

But the comment in that article is just stupid - What are these other leaders going to say? They are not like Chavez. It calls into queston the whole article, which really sounds like bull.. Why do people have to make stuff up - the guy provides enough ammunition- it just looks really suspicious

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podborski says on Dec 8, 2007, 09:40:

no not you hongo joe, there are other more senior apologists here

but the statement doesn't seem so far out to me either.

It's all just talk anyway. All you need to do to know what he intends is to look at his idols, philosophical and political. It's pretty easy to foresee where he plans to go.

Unless you pretend to believe he plans to do the opposite of what he says he will do...a bizarre POV if I ever heard one

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gatogris says on Dec 8, 2007, 11:36:

Jorge Castañeda is a rabid polemecist. His thoughts on this matter are well known and were telegraphed while he was in office. If the goal is to be balanced you might as well read the speeches of Bernardo Alvarez, Venezuelan Ambassador to the U.S., alongside Castañeda.

http://www.embavenez-us.org/news.php?nid=3635

Professional opinion makers are my favorite people. They really have our best interests in mind. Let's all jump on a bandwagon together and argue their 'points,' because they really need new curtains for the diningroom.

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 8, 2007, 14:03:

The Castañeda article shows that the only people worse than Chavez in Venezuela are his traditional opposition, making up shit like this. Maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't seen a trace of verifiable evidence of what Castañeda and other people are saying about Chavez trying to steal the referendum.

So much outrage at the supposed attempted theft of the referendum by Chavez, but when Uribe tried to steal his, not a word.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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slguy says on Dec 8, 2007, 14:32:

"Maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't seen a trace of verifiable evidence of what Castañeda and other people are saying about Chavez trying to steal the referendum."

Just out of idle curiosity, where WOULD one find verifiable evidence in this case? Not likely Chavez would fess up. Equally unlikely the generals involved would say so.

I wasn't there. I'm not saying it is or isn't true. But Chavez conceding to a razor-thin margin? Doesn't seem likely, which lends some credibility to the story...

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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gatogris says on Dec 8, 2007, 14:47:

Slguy, Some believe that the National Electoral Council (CNE) in Venezuela is pro-government (for a reasonably persuasive example, on a website run by an opposition party, see http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/print/2968). There is alot of debate over this in diplomatic circles, amped up now as you might imagine. However, as for getting ahold of core data on this issue, do so and they'd hire you over at State or Langley. The CNE has to keep much of this data off limits, to avoid any speculation about tampering. We do the same at home.

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 8, 2007, 14:58:

"Just out of idle curiosity, where WOULD one find verifiable evidence in this case?" I don't know, I guess anything more substantial than mere hearsay. The burden of proof is on those making the allegations, not on Chavez.

Why is Chavez conceding a loss such an unlikely thing? Are there any precedents of him rigging elections? I don't know of any, except for the traditional unsubstantiated rumors. The Venezuelan press, on the other hand, has produced so much patently false bullshit over the last few years that their credibility is not even zero: It's negative. What they say is most likely not only false but the exact opposite of what occurred.

I'm not saying whether any of this happened or not. It's just that rumor and heasay doesn't convince me.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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slguy says on Dec 8, 2007, 17:02:

Puhlease, SrT! Why do you insist on ignoring the character of the man? The very proposals in his referendum speak VOLUMES about what he is all about, even ignoring his atrocious behavior on the international stage.

gatogris- that was my point. there is no way to prove/disprove the allegations in the article. one can only depend on the man's record, on his public behavior, to surmise whether or not to believe the story. I never said I believed it to be accurate, or for that matter disbelieved it - I only said that given the nature of the allegations, we'll probably never know, with certainty, the real story. BUT - given his combative nature, it's difficult to believe that such a narcissist would accept gracefully that 2 point spread. It's NOT difficult to believe he made a deal, under duress.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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billyb says on Dec 8, 2007, 17:36:

"when Uribe tried to steal his, not a word."

T, and your verefiable proof of this is.............?? Or don't you need proof when the alegations are against Uribe?

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 8, 2007, 19:34:

Slguy: I don't deny that Chavez is an authoritarian clown with very questionable diplomacy. Does that translate immediately into electoral fraud? Not to me. I don't judge on the basis of preconceptions, but of evidence. That's why I don't bring in the "character" of Mr. Uribe to back my allegation that he tried to steal elections: There is a record for that.

Billy, if you go to the archives of the Consejo Nacional Electoral, you will find that in the files of early November 2003 there is a formal request from the President, through the Minister of Interior and Justice, Fernando Londoño Hoyos, to recalculate the national census (which seemed to be okay just weeks before) that would serve to determine the results of the referendum, and that it was his opinion that blank votes should count as effective votes, when the Registraduria had already indicated that blank votes would not count toward the minimum number of votes. This request was widely publicized in the media, and Londoño himself admitted it--sort of--in a meeting of the Conservative party (you can check their minutes). Considering that the CNE was mostly under Uribista control, this amounts to an attempt to formalize the theft of the result of the referendum.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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billyb says on Dec 8, 2007, 19:38:

"(you can check their minutes)."

jaja, no thanks, I'll trust you on it.

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slguy says on Dec 8, 2007, 19:58:

I didn't accuse him of electoral fraud, SrT. If any fraud was committed, it was obviously done by the CNE - by lowering the losing margin.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 8, 2007, 20:13:

Let me clarify then: I don't see how his "character" provides any support to the statement below.

"But Chavez conceding to a razor-thin margin? Doesn't seem likely, which lends some credibility to the story."

AFAIK, the electoral system in Venezuela, despite unfounded suspicions, has not shown any more problems than in any other functioning democracy. That doesn't mean that it should be trusted blindly; it should be monitored, for sure, particularly because the centralized system of Venezuela is vulnerable to corruption, but until substantial amounts of corruption are shown, the assumption of anomaly is not supported.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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gatogris says on Dec 8, 2007, 20:57:

I don't like Chavez much, but I agree with Tertius on this one. Chavez is not a dictator - dictators don't accept defeats. Trying to rationalize that he was forced to accept this outcome is a type of specious reasoning called retroductive reasoning - conclusions gone in search of premises.

Plus, I feel bad for the guy. His ex-wife is now jodiendolo la vida.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Venezuela-Chavezs-Ex-Wife.htm...

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billyb says on Dec 8, 2007, 21:04:

"Chavez is not a dictator - dictators don't accept defeats. "

Assuming that all the reports that he was forced to do so by the military are untrue. I can easily believe those reports, as well as I can easily believe that they are untrue. I think it will all unfold in the next few weeks and the truth will trickle out, as it always does.

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 8, 2007, 21:10:

Billy: Those reports may be indeed true, but they are all coming from the Venezuelan media. When they say the sky is blue, it's possibly the start of the Apocalypse.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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slguy says on Dec 8, 2007, 21:21:

Absent RCTV, the venezuelan media is less believable, in El Payaso's favor, in most minds.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Dec 9, 2007, 06:53:

I don't think Chavez's days are numbered. He controls nearly every government institution, the main engine of the economy (PdVSA), the national checkbook, and he can rule by decree.

Now, maybe he'll be assassinated or maybe there will be a coup, but one week after "losing" he was jetting off to Belarus to expand his axis of evil at the expense of the average Venezuelan.

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 9, 2007, 08:05:

slguy: RCTV was not only critical of Chavez, which is good, it also instigated the coup and recognized its illegitimate new government, using misinformation. If you haven't already, check "The Revolution will not be Televised." Even with all of that, I don't think it should've lost its license the way it did. Then again, what kind of treatment would, say, The Guardian get if it instigates taking down the UK prime minister by force and recognizes a dictatorship?

Chavez has plenty of opposition in the private media, in places like TalCual, El Universal, El Nacional, etc. That's a very good thing, the problem is that they often go way off, like with these rumors about private conversations between Chavez and his generals. Please. What credence do these reports have, given the record of those who report them and the absence of material or serious testimonial evidence?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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slguy says on Dec 9, 2007, 08:28:

Despite your insistence, SrT that there is no evidence of a backroom deal having been made, the evidence speaks for itself.

The referendum itself was an obvious power play by Chavez to turn Venezuela into another Cuba, with ALL power in the hands of Chavez, forever. I don't believe that even you can fail to see the truth in this.

Given that he viewed the referendum as his tool to assume totalitarian control of the government, and given his propensity for seeing the "Empire's" evil hand lurking behind every action he dislikes - how can you possibly believe that he would meekly accept a 2 point defeat without his customary bluster and hyperbole? For example, he was fairly meek with his response to being removed from the FARC "negotiations" - for a couple days. Then he was calling Uribe a liar, and freezing relations. It's been a week now since his defeat- and he remains quiet? Unless one has VERY effective blinders on, it's difficult to believe that the events as reported are terribly far-fetched.

My guess? The people that made the deal with him, to lower the percentage of his loss, additionally warned him against future bombastic outbursts regarding the results, unless he wants the true elections results released. And no, I have no evidence of this - pure speculation on my part. But again, one has to ignore the history of the man completely, to reject this notion.

As I said in an earlier post, the truth will probably never been be fully known. Everyone involved has too much at risk by admitting what really happened. But to continue calling for evidence that Chavez was NOT coerced into accepting his defeat mildly is to completely ignore the history and nature of the man.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 9, 2007, 08:43:

"Given that he viewed the referendum as his tool to assume totalitarian control of the government, and given his propensity for seeing the "Empire's" evil hand lurking behind every action he dislikes - how can you possibly believe that he would meekly accept a 2 point defeat without his customary bluster and hyperbole?"

He was meek for like two days. Haven't you heard him lately? He's calling the victory of the opposition a shitty victory. Literally. The guy hasn't changed a bit because of his defeat. I see the same clownish authoritarian vociferous guy we've always known. And part of his character, so far, has been to respect electoral results. Claims against that are serious accusations, which need to be backed with something more than rumor. Otherwise they become "true" by sheer repetition.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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slguy says on Dec 9, 2007, 08:59:

It ain't paranoia if they're really after you, is it?

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 9, 2007, 09:48:

"Chavez? I give him less than a year."

Wanna bet on that? ha ha... just teasing you.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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slguy says on Dec 9, 2007, 10:11:

I gotta side with GIB. I'm not sure about the bullet part - but I'd bet he gets gone. Without the support of the military, like any populist, he's vulnerable. For his former military chief to publicly denounce him makes me believe he's on a short time span...

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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goin_south says on Dec 9, 2007, 11:56:

" jetting off to Belarus " ?
I understand.... but,....

Where do we go from here?

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gatogris says on Dec 9, 2007, 11:59:

Welcome to sunny Belarus - holding the dubious distinction of the last dictatorship in Europe, where they dump journalists in mass graves outside Minsk.

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 9, 2007, 12:03:

"Sure?"

Very much, GIB. I know you're style of betting: You win, you cash, you lose, you walk away.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 9, 2007, 13:11:

Ja ja. Here: http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/post/a-bet-and-statistics/

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Robert Jorge says on Dec 9, 2007, 13:15:

I'll have to read up on Belarus. I had no idea it was a dictatorship. Every summer there are all kinds of Belarusans in Destin on work visas cleaning hotel rooms, condos, working at restaraunts, etc. I just figured Belarus was a democracy with the ease that those kids get work visas.

BEWARE of gold diggers.

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Robert Jorge says on Dec 9, 2007, 13:26:

Yep, it's a dictatorship. (Belarus) It figures since Chavez now wants to make friends over there. I didn't see anything about "mass graves" in Belarus. But a lot of journalists do disappear.

BEWARE of gold diggers.

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 9, 2007, 13:40:

GIB: Did you really go through the trouble of erasing all your entries so that you could say "I didn't see a bet by me"?

That'd be amazing!

You must have made a bet in one of your edited posts, because I am accepting YOUR bet in my third entry.

RJ: I don't know much about Belarus, but I read that they've been holding regular parliamentary elections. What makes you say that it is a dictatorship? In any case, it seems like everyone is dealing with dictators these days. What's up with the US relation with Pakistan?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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gatogris says on Dec 9, 2007, 14:13:

Belarus is a dungeon run by a despot.

http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?nit=358&page=47&year=2005

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 9, 2007, 15:34:

For an alternative view on Chavez's rumors, check venezuelanalysis: http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/2968

BTW, I certainly don't take VA for granted. I have already pointed at misquotes they attributed to Colombian commentators. But at least they provided footnotes to track their claims.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Dec 9, 2007, 15:38:

Without reading through the old link provided above, I remember something about the GringoinBogota v. Tertius bet, or rather the old argument surrounding it. Wasn't the gist of it which illegal group used to be prevalent in Fusagasuga?

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 9, 2007, 15:59:

A cut a lot of slack to GIB, but he started talking BS about an area I know well, Southern Cundinamarca, and particularly Fusa. He claimed that Fusa was a "FARC stronghold," which is ludicrous. The traditional FARC areas of influence nearby were Viota and the highlands of the Sumapaz area, certainly not Fusa. Instead of saying "oops" or "I was just joking" he insisted, made a bet, and then disappeared not before editing his ridiculous claims.

Such a classy guy, this GIB.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Robert Jorge says on Dec 9, 2007, 16:34:

Sr T, I did not know a thing about Belarus, besides where it is geographically and that there are a lot of hot chicks that come from there. I spent 10 minutes on a Google search, and the first 2 or 3 sites were Belarusan expats or citizens saying how bad it is there politically. But other than what I read from my "extensive research", I know nothing. The sites were pretty consistent about showing people protesting the government, journalists disappearing, people getting the crap beat out of them and / or dying, etc. It's too bad - seems like a beautiful country. I know one girl personally from Belarus. She never really wanted to talk about the country.

BEWARE of gold diggers.

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gatogris says on Dec 10, 2007, 03:11:

Not to kick a dead dog here, but I suppose it could be argued (although I'm not sure I would) that even were these rumours to have a basis in fact, what has taken place in Venezuela STILL represents a sort of proto-democratic victory.

Unlike in Peru, where Fujimori was able to sweep aside all internal opposition to his 'autogolpe,' or in Ecuador and Bolivia, where massive, destabalizing protests were necessary to usher in a change of government, Venezuela's powderkeg did not erupt.

If this was to do with pressures applied from internal opposition forces, such as the army, than this is not entirely dissimilar to what the Americans call "checks and balances." Remember, democracy is not just the results of the ballot box, but also a politcal culture.

The informal rules and 'particularism' of Venezuelan political culture might have played a positive role here. For this particularism did not simply contaminate pristine democratic institutions, so preventing government from delivering in practice the values to which it subscribes in principle. On the contrary, in this case it seems to be the stuff of democratic deliberation, negotiation, and ‘trade-offs.’

It could have happened that way, but I'm not saying it did.

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Albatross says on Dec 10, 2007, 06:25:

I'm not an "expert"... but I know enough about Colombia to know that the longest running war in Latin America is not over. Uribe has done a good job at improving security, but he'll be out of office in 2010. The FARC, ELN, ect may simply be biding their time until Uribe is out of the picture. After 2010... who knows.

Meanwhile, there are still PLENTY of places in Colombia, that will bite you in the ass if you get complacent.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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billyb says on Dec 10, 2007, 13:22:

Maybe not so ridiculousm Hongo_joe.

From El Universal:

Salvador President denies plans to severe ties with Venezuel

Salvadorian President Elías Antonio Saca branded as "good" his country's relations with Venezuela, and denied any plans to severe diplomatic ties with Caracas.

"At the present time we are not considering the possibility to break diplomatic relations with Venezuela," Saca said when asked about recent statements by a lawmaker and the Minister of Security and Justice René Figueroa.

Deputy Rodolfo Parker, of rightwing Democrat-Christian Party (PDC), recently commented on the defeat of President Hugo Chávez's proposed changes to the Constitution last December 2. He told daily newspaper El Diario de Hoy that Salvador government could not disregard such an electoral result, and suggested breaking diplomatic relations, Efe reported.

On Monday, El Diario de Hoy reported that Figueroa claims that bilateral ties should be reviewed to delve into the alleged use of Venezuelan intelligence agents in Salvador.

"Such an intervention would be an abuse that violates our national sovereignty," the minister said, adding that the case is under consideration by the Salvadorian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, according to the report.

Meanwhile, Saca, who has criticized Chávez in several times, said, "we have good relations with Venezuela. I have talked to President Hugo Chávez in different occasions," such as the Ibero-American Summit held in Chile last month.

The Salvadorian ruler, however, said they are "closely monitoring the issue of the funding and the claims that the Bolivarian Circles are close to the Farabundo Martí National Liberation Front."

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hongo_joe says on Dec 10, 2007, 13:57:

Well I have been wrong before, but I don't think this provides much support for the argument. I don't know why "Rodolfo Parker, of rightwing Democrat-Christian Party" would want to break relations because of the defeat - nothing is mentioned about manipulating the results. It talks about looking into "alleged use of Venezuelan intelligence agents in Salvador" - but that is a long way from the president being afraid to speak out because of a fifth column.

Look, it just seems so much more reasonable to believe the results were close, as Venezuela's official explained in the link above. If you go back go back and read some of the pre-referendum posts in such memorable threads as “Chavez Threatens to Seize Banks, Shut Down Media as Vote Looms� and “Is Chavez hurt by his incessant hurling of insults?�. Pretty much everybody thought the results would be close and the vast majority thought Chavez would win (or had already won) – most likely by manipulating, stealing or, more charitably, ‘buying’, the vote. One guy even said he would buy everyone beach front condos or donuts or something if Chavez lost.

But NOBODY predicted a large win by the opposition – for good reason. I think it is almost miraculous that the Venezuelans were able to resist the intimidation, misinformation, and bribes and do the right thing – they deserve a lot of credit.

I think we’ll never know, but it seems to me a lot more likely that the vote was close.

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slguy says on Dec 10, 2007, 14:32:

Hjoe, you're on the money - the Venezuelan people deserve a TON of credit. I was really afraid the oppostion calling for another idiotic boycott would seal the fate of that beauitful country...

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 11, 2007, 15:59:

I hate to extend the whole Fusa thing, knowing that I can't make a buck out of GIB, but... I tried to resist... really hard... but I have a weakness for the smelly piles of horsecrap that GIB writes. I've been a good boy, I don't pay attention to his BS... but with this he has gone too far... way too far.

First off, GIB, you don't know shit about me. And when I've disclosed how and why I know the things I know about the area, you seem to get into autistic fits. What "contractor friend" are you talking about? I fucking lived and worked in the area, mijo, my pase is from Fusa, I had family and friends living in the area, I studied the area, want more? No joda, ¿le va a enseñar a su papá a hacer hijos?

Second, I have never questioned the anecdote you report. There's no way for me to verify it. But your claims are not restricted to that anecdote, you make ridiculous claims that can be easily demonstrated to be false. If you care to specify a bit better what you mean by "stronghold" and if you are so fucking sure about the crap you are saying, let's make a bet now. Just say yes, and I'll copy your claims into my posts, so that you don't edit them later. That is so fucking pathetic, GIB, even for you. And to attribute the whole thing to me... that's beyond words.

C'mon GIB, put your money where your mouth is. I'll be there in late Feb-early March. We'll meet in a public place of your choice and hopefully another local PBHer will serve as referee. I'll buy you a coffee and we specify the conditions of the bet. If you stand by anything close to your moronic claims it'll take me less than 2 business days to prove you wrong. To make it worth my time, the minimum bet should be, say, US$700.

C'mon, GIB, don't be a wooz. It's your call. I swear I won't sell your cheap ass to FARC; they wouldn't pay me much anyway.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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slguy says on Dec 11, 2007, 16:08:

Careful there SrT- to coin a phrase, I don't see any evidence to substantiate your claims. on the contrary.....;)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 11, 2007, 16:55:

Oh, I have the evidence--I sent the crap that GIB posted to a friend who has access to the SUIVD (a regional database for violence and crime information) and there's abundant information to show that Albany NY is more likely a stronghold of FARC than Fusa has ever been. I'm saving it in my backpocket, though, waiting for GIB to put money on his words.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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billyb says on Dec 13, 2007, 06:48:

Diciembre 12 de 2007

Aumenta el dasabastecimiento de alimentos básicos en supermercados de Venezuela


Foto: El Nacional. Venezuela. GDA
Los alimentos como carne, leche, harina de trigo, arroz y pasta son los que más escasean en todo el país.
Información relacionada
Las hallacas sienten el peso de la inflación

Foto: El Nacional. Venezuela. GDA
El control de precios impuesto por el Gobierno ha hecho que la producción baje, pues queda muy poco margen de ganancia. Ir de madrugada, hacer cola por horas, o enviar mensajes de celular cuando llegan provisiones son algunas de las técn