Chavez to freeze relations with Colombia

Aaron21 says on Nov 25, 2007, 15:54:

I just saw him on CNN giving this speech. He looked, sounded, and acted like a big red boob.

slguy says on Nov 25, 2007, 16:07:

Yea- this is a fokin' shocker.

How can Venezuelans NOT see what a narcisissitic idiot this loose cannon is? It doesn't even require much education to see that when heads of state tell this clown to shut his piehole, he reacts like a spoiled child, freeezing relations with them.

At least he's consistent.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

Medellin Traveler says on Nov 25, 2007, 16:16:

It's actually hilarious!

Are these two guys "heads of state" or members of a Latino Comedy Troupe?

The new "Cheech and Chong" only not as funny, silly is more like it.

You can't blame one without the other. I don't know if the people, in both countries, should laugh or cry at this point.

I, for one, have had suicidal tendencies since W and Dick were elected into office.

Medellin es una chimba! www.medellintraveler.com

Simon says on Nov 25, 2007, 17:02:

FOK CHAVEZ!!!! I liked some of his ideas about latin american unity but now that he's messing with Uribe I hate this buffoon!!

I say we open a can of whoop-ass on him!!!

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

Sr Tertius says on Nov 25, 2007, 17:07:

"he reacts like a spoiled child"

Oh, c'mon, slguy, if it's Uribe, he takes no shit, but if it is Chavez, he's a spoiled child. C'mon! They're both stagy authoritarian pricks with a penchant for the vociferous. And, unfortunately, they're both very popular in their own countries.

My crystal ball tells me that these guys will be back in bed together in less than 3 months.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

Simon says on Nov 25, 2007, 17:09:

Uribe vociferous?

It's funny, I don't see Uribe going around arguing with other heads of state.

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

Sr Tertius says on Nov 25, 2007, 17:23:

That's because Uribe, deep in his heart, is a pansy. He'll never take his ire against anyone who can answer back; in those cases, he sends out one of his subnormal goons, like Comissioner Restrepo or one of the Santos boys. I don't think he'd raise his voice to Bush even if he found him fockin Lina.

You gotta give credit to Chavez, if nothing else the guy has real balls. Unfortunately for him, he occasionally comes across intelligent people, like Zapatero, who puts him in his place. That's the cost of having more balls than brains.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

slguy says on Nov 25, 2007, 17:24:

SrT, I can understand why you take this position.

For me, the difference is glaringly obvious.

Chavez completely ignored protocol, as well as his own promise to Uribe, and it makes little difference to me what his conversation with the general was about - he promised not to do it. He broke his word. Very simple.

Then, when Uribe rightly called him on it, Chavez freezes relations?

Uribe, OTOH, did NOT break his word. (at least that we know of). In fact, my guess is he was as good as his word. When all this began, I feel comfortable imagining Uribe telling Chavez to keep his big mouth out of the Colombian military's ears, or else.

Uribe removed a loose cannon from the scenario, a loose cannon who lied to him. He didn't freeze relations, he didn't rant and rave. He simply did what he should have done- remove a man who's word cannot be relied on from a very sensitive negotiation.

And what did Chavez do? The same thing he did when Juan Carlos publicly spanked him- froze relations between the two countries.

A statesman of any caliber sees beyond a personal spanking, and thinks about what's best for his country. Uribe demonstrated his ability to do this when he invited that clown into the negotiations in the first place, as distasteful as it must have been for him. You can honestly tell me that Chavez' actions are what he thought best for Venezuela?

I agree that they're both stagy, and both mouthy. But I stand by my "spoiled child" analogy.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

Simon says on Nov 25, 2007, 17:35:

"That's because Uribe, deep in his heart, is a pansy"


Yeah, that's why he goes around having town hall meetings in some of the toughest and most remote areas of Colombia, risking his life to meet with these neglected Colombians.

Uribe has more balls than Rambo!

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

Sr Tertius says on Nov 25, 2007, 17:40:

Good points slguy. Regarding the end of Chavez's mediation, up to now I had leaned more toward Chavez than Uribe. Chavez DID break his commitment not to talk to the generals, but Uribe also broke his commitment to talk to Chavez before making any major decision. It seems to me Uribe overreacted, particularly given the stakes. However, Chavez's freezing relations with Colombia and Spain is an overreaction of much larger magnitude. And Uribe has reacted again, and not particularly in a conciliatory way.

Undoubtedly, Chavez wins the prize for the most ridiculous overreaction. But both he and Uribe need to put their egos aside. Unfortunately, their reactions play well with their bases, so they'll carry on with their theatrics until larger interests make them shut up. My guess (or at least my hope) is that these events will not amount to much.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

Tinto (Moderator) says on Nov 25, 2007, 17:48:

If the translation is accurate, it appears he's ratcheting up the rhetoric ("I say before the world... Uribe is a liar... Colombia needs a new president..."). Were he a member of PBH his account would be deleted for making personal insults.

billyb says on Nov 25, 2007, 17:52:

What do you guys think will come of the treason investigation against Cordova?

Sr Tertius says on Nov 25, 2007, 17:54:

To be more precise, Chavez said "Colombia deserves a better president." Either way, HIGHLY inappropriate.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

juancegomez says on Nov 25, 2007, 17:58:

Chavez made a mistake, Uribe made a bigger mistake, Chavez made things worse, and now Uribe has decided to help screw things up even more.

Sigh....I'm almost sure radically pro-Uribe and pro-Chavez partisans must be jerking off to the rising tension, if you forgive my language, but I'm definitely becoming somewhat depressed...I still hope there's an end to this crap, but who knows....

---

Uribe: Chavez wants a Marxist FARC government in Colombia

1 hour, 21 minutes ago

BOGOTA (AFP) - Tensions between Colombia and Venezuela soared Sunday, with President Alvaro Uribe charging Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez was seeking a Marxist FARC government in Bogota and the spread of leftist regimes across Latin America.


"Your words, your positions, suggest you are not interested in peace in Colombia, but rather in Colombia becoming the victim of a terrorist government of the FARC," Uribe said after Chavez announced he was "freezing" relations with Bogota.

Chavez earlier said he was putting bilateral ties in a "freezer," after Uribe dropped him and a dialogue facilitator, Colombian senator Piedad Cordoba, in negotiations toward the swap of leftist rebels for high-profile hostages guerrillas hold.

"We need a mediation with terrorists, and not people who try to lend legitimacy to terrorism," Uribe said referring to Chavez.

Chavez had said in Venezuela: "I declare to the world that I am putting relations with Colombia in the freezer. I do not believe in anyone in the Colombian government," Chavez said in a speech.

"They have spat brutally in our face when we worked heart and soul to try to get them on the road to peace," Chavez added.

In Bogota, Cordoba said Sunday she was being investigated by her country's Supreme Court for treason.

"They notified me yesterday; I am being investigated for treason and collusion," Cordoba told Radio Caracol from Caracas. She did not say if the charges against her were related to her work as mediator or to unrelated allegations.

Uribe had approved Chavez and Cordoba for their negotiator roles in August 31, following a phone call from Chavez to Colombian Army General Mario Montoya inquiring about the hostages.

Cordoba came under considerable fire in government circles for meeting secretly with rebel commanders Ivan Marquez and Rodrigo Granda, whom the FARC selected to negotiate the swap of 45 abductees for about 500 jailed guerrillas.

Uribe on Wednesday withdrew backing for Chavez and Cordoba to mediate FARC's offer to release 45 high-profile hostages -- including three Americans and French-Colombian politician Ingrid Betancourt -- in exchange for the jailed rebels.

The conservative Colombian president said that he considered Chavez's role over, because the Venezuelan leader had ignored his demand not to speak directly with Colombian generals about the hostages.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy has asked Uribe to "maintain a dialogue" with Chavez over the possible swap, his office said Thursday.

Sarkozy has taken a personal interest in the fate of Betancourt, a Colombian former presidential candidate who has a French passport by virtue of a marriage to a Frenchman.

She has been held by the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) since 2002.

The four-decades old FARC is Latin America's largest and longest-fighting insurgency..


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071126/wl_afp/colombiavenezuelarebelshos...

billyb says on Nov 25, 2007, 17:58:

I also heard something about them advocating for a transitional governament in Colombia (which of course is outof the question) as part of the negotiations, but details were sketchy, has anybody heard more on that?

juancegomez says on Nov 25, 2007, 18:00:

billyb: I have not seen that anywhere, regarding these negotiations, though that is indeed FARC's official point of view in recent times.

billyb says on Nov 25, 2007, 18:09:

Here's part of the text of Uribe's reply to Chavez that contains mention of it.

"La verdad, Presidente Chávez, es que en cada momento se conocen nuevos elementos. Nuestro cónsul en los Estados Unidos, quien acompañó a la senadora Córdoba a la reunión de uno de los presos pertenecientes a las Farc, que por narcotráfico están en cárceles en los Estados Unidos, nos ha informado que la senadora Córdoba habló con el preso de la Farc de política. Eso está bien, de la posibilidad de una nueva constituyente en Colombia, eso está bien. Todo eso es respetable así no estemos de acuerdo, pero la senadora también habló de la necesidad de un gobierno de transición en Colombia."

goin_south says on Nov 25, 2007, 18:13:

Simon, I'm on my way to New Orleans. It's the only place I know where they sell 'Whoop-Ass' in a can... I'm sending down a few cases.

..... leavin louisiana in the broad day light

goin_south says on Nov 25, 2007, 18:15:

I can empathize with the relatives of the hostages, but.... myself, I think Uribe likely has good reason why he acted as he did.

I have a client, who is venezuelano, about 35 years of age, who said his dad was in the same platoon in the Venezuelan Army with Chavez, and says: THE GUY IS A LUNATIC!

..... leavin louisiana in the broad day light

goin_south says on Nov 25, 2007, 18:16:

Tertius.... I think there's a difference between 'having big balls' and being a lunatic.... a bit.

..... leavin louisiana in the broad day light

juancegomez says on Nov 25, 2007, 18:23:

billyb: I didn't see nor hear that part of the speech before, so I didn't know. Thank you for the information.

However, forgive me if I doubt a bit....something about the way in which Uribe is presenting the situation, given the current political mess and the heavily antagonistic rhetoric, makes me question reading that too literally. At least for now, without more information about that incident and what Córdoba actually said.

goin_south says on Nov 25, 2007, 18:43:

serious question:
How do they figure swapping 45 for.........500... is any sort of fair??

..... leavin louisiana in the broad day light

goin_south says on Nov 25, 2007, 18:44:

I have two serious questions:
How do they figure in these negotiations/swapping prisoners?
45.........for 500?
Hummmh. Now, I can only think in terms of like.... a trade in Baseball, MLB.....or other professional sports.... and 45 (high profile?) for.......500..... (scum???)

Well... that's about a 1:10 ratio. 10 double- and single-A prospects for .... One # 1 or # 2 starters? Where's the accountability? Who counts for what?

See, it's a problem... because we were also taught: All men are created equal.... so, 500 for ...45???? Doesn't sound quite legit.

---------
Okay, then there is the other NUMBER PROBLEM I'VE NEVER FIGURED OUT.
What they say now,... there's about 17,000 to 18,000 FARC....(plus the 500 that they want out of jail).... so, I 'still don't get it, miguel'..... how 18,500 farc think they can demand a transitional government.... VS. what.... the other 44,981,500 residents of Colombia....

..... leavin louisiana in the broad day light

goin_south says on Nov 25, 2007, 18:44:

.

..... leavin louisiana in the broad day light

goin_south says on Nov 25, 2007, 18:45:

.

..... leavin louisiana in the broad day light

goin_south says on Nov 25, 2007, 18:46:

The fact is..... AS LONG AS THEY ARE IN CAPTIVITY.....
NONE OF THE 45 ARE OF ANY FREAKIN PROFILE.
not hi-profile.
not low.
nada.

..... leavin louisiana in the broad day light

Medellin Traveler says on Nov 25, 2007, 19:09:

The whole situation is a HOPLESS MESS!!

What was Uribe doing in the first place letting another head of state meddle in Colombian affairs? I never got that from the start.

"How do they figure swapping 45 for.........500... is any sort of fair??" - goin_south

No one ever said life was fair.

Welcome To Colombia!

Medellin es una chimba! www.medellintraveler.com

goin_south says on Nov 25, 2007, 19:17:

45 (high profile?) for.......500..... (scum???)

must be right

..... leavin louisiana in the broad day light

juancegomez says on Nov 25, 2007, 19:44:

More details, for those interested.

Chavez Deepens Regional Rift After Freezing Ties With Colombia

By Matthew Walter and Helen Murphy

Nov. 26 (Bloomberg) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, sharpening his conflicts with regional counterparts, said he put relations with Colombia in the ``freezer'' after its president told him to stay out of talks with guerrillas.

Chavez, a self-proclaimed revolutionary, yesterday called Colombian President Alvaro Uribe a ``liar'' and said he thinks the neighboring country ``doesn't want peace'' with the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC. Uribe last week withdrew his support for Chavez's bid to broker the release of FARC hostages.

``I've lost all confidence in the Colombian government,'' Chavez said yesterday in a speech. ``Colombia deserves a better president.''

The collapse of Uribe and Chavez's agreement on hostage talks marks an escalation of tension with leaders who have demanded Chavez stop overstepping diplomatic boundaries as he promotes his ``twenty-first century socialism'' across Latin America.

``The truth, President Chavez, is that you are promoting an expansionist plan on the continent,'' Uribe said yesterday in response to Chavez's remarks, according to a speech posted on the Colombian government Web site. ``You can't set fire to the continent like you do, one day talking against Spain, then next against the United States; treating Mexico poorly one day, and Peru the following.''

`Personal Pride'

Uribe ended his support for Chavez's involvement in the FARC negotiations after the Venezuelan president directly called the commander of Colombia's army. That call violated an agreement between the two that issues involving the negotiations would be handled only at the presidential level.

``He's just received several blows to his personal pride on an international level,'' said Demetrio Boersner, a political science professor at the Universidad Catolica Andres Bello in Caracas who previously served as Venezuela's ambassador to Romania, Sweden and Austria. ``He's losing a lot of friends.''

During a summit in Santiago, Chile on Nov. 10, Chilean President Michelle Bachelet asked Chavez to stay out of a dispute with Bolivia, one of Venezuela's closest allies, over access to part of Chile's coastline. At the same summit, Spanish King Juan Carlos I told Chavez to ``shut up'' after the Venezuelan leader called a former Spanish president a fascist. Chavez's opposition to the candidacies of Peruvian President Alan Garcia and Mexico's Felipe Calderon in elections last year brought rebukes from both leaders.

Chavez's comments yesterday were an about-face from his initial reaction to Uribe's decision to withdraw his support. He said Nov. 23 that the situation was ``regrettable,'' and that he respected Uribe's position and still hopes the country finds a way to free the hostages.

``Breaking ties seems totally out of proportion to the situation,'' said opposition party leader Carlos Gaviria, who ran against Uribe in presidential elections last year, in a telephone interview. ``Chavez is trying to consolidate his leadership in Latin America but this is an exaggeration of his position.''

To contact the reporters on this story: Matthew Walter in Sao Paulo at mwalter4 at bloomberg.net ; Helen Murphy in Bogota at 7662 or Hmurphy1 at bloomberg.net



http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aiiGOOn_ikvQ

goin_south says on Nov 25, 2007, 20:03:

[...``The truth, President Chavez, is that you are promoting an expansionist plan on the continent,'' Uribe said yesterday in response to Chavez's remarks, according to a speech posted on the Colombian government Web site. ``You can't set fire to the continent like you do, one day talking against Spain, then next against the United States; treating Mexico poorly one day, and Peru the following.''...]

I think I agree; the writing is on the wall.

..... leavin louisiana in the broad day light

Sr Tertius says on Nov 25, 2007, 20:12:

"I'm almost sure radically pro-Uribe and pro-Chavez partisans must be jerking off to the rising tension"

Jerking off and with passion!

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

billyb says on Nov 25, 2007, 20:14:

Do you think Chavez is overeacting because all of these public rebukes he has recieved recently have given the opposition ammo to ridicule him inside Venezuela?

Sr Tertius says on Nov 25, 2007, 20:26:

Maybe. Although he seems to be of a sort of dickish character in general.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

slguy says on Nov 25, 2007, 20:28:

No. I don't believe this. I think he's an emotionally troubled individual, with a healthy dose of narcissism. He has NEVER demonstrated any tolerance for anyone expecting civilized, diplomatic behavior from him.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

Sr Tertius says on Nov 25, 2007, 20:38:

I don't know slguy, but if I was president and a bunch of pricks tried unsuccessfully to topple me down, I'd probably have them hung in a public plaza for high treason. Instead, Chavez allowed many of them to continue in the opposition with only one warning, something along the lines of "if you want to oppose me, oppose me, but not this way."

The guy is an authoritarian dick, no doubt about it, but we don't have to fall into hyperbole.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

slguy says on Nov 25, 2007, 20:51:

Good point. I apologize.

I think I've OD'd on Chavez. I'm gonna take a break from these discussions.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

miamimike says on Nov 25, 2007, 22:25:

He(Chavez) is in the Miami News a lot, but many, outside of the old Cuban Guajiro Exiles and Venezuelan Millionaires(key biscayne types) don't pay Him much mind. Our thought is that the Venezuelans have to resolve the problem themselves as do the Cubans. The Anti-Chavistas can take a Good Lesson from the Miami Cubans on how NOT to fight for their Freedom& Ideals and by that I mean, staying in your Country and fighting the Good Fight! Don't "Cut&Run" like the Cubans did with Castro-they basically rolled over and gave Fidel their Island. Thank You. Now here in the safety of Miami, they Heckle& CatCall Daily to Cuba where in hindsight, they should have been doing this in Cuba,Boots on the Ground .Castro laughs at them! I give those young Venezuelan Students who protested against Chavez this past week a lot of Credit--seems they are some of the only ones with a set of Cojones,,,

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

Sr Tertius says on Nov 25, 2007, 23:08:

MM: Indeed, they need to do opposition from within Venezuela, and from what I hear, they have an enormous opportunity if they are able to capture the favor of the middle class that is disenchanted with Chavez but that is more afraid of the characters involved in the failed coup. Their current strategy of misinformation and exaggeration is shooting back at them. The key may be in the students.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

Dolfi says on Nov 26, 2007, 00:49:

It looks to me as if Uribe is desperatly afraid of a big success for Chavez. Imagine Mrs. Betancourt handed over to Chavez by the Farc and flying to Paris from Caracas the same day. That would make Uribe look not too cool.

juancegomez says on Nov 26, 2007, 06:55:

Dolfi: If that were so easy, that would have happened already within three months. But then again, why would FARC release their most valuable hostage so quickly?

billyb says on Nov 26, 2007, 07:02:

Maybe Venezuelans can rally behind Baduel, he seems to be a straight shooter.

scotty says on Nov 28, 2007, 20:15:

Chavez always shooting himself in the foot.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash