Chavez Starts Unleashing his Dogs

Colombiche says on Dec 12, 2007, 07:30:

http://www.eltiempo.com/politica/2007-12-12/ARTICULO-WEB-NOTA_INTERIOR...


Gobierno colombiano niega tener "posición de fuerza" frente a Nicaragua

El canciller Fernando Araújo dijo que no vislumbra un conflicto bélico con ese país en respuesta al presidente nicaragüense Daniel Ortega en torno al caso.

"Nuestra posición no es de fuerza como dice el presidente Ortega, sino una posición jurídica, porque tenemos la soberanía de San Andrés desde hace más de 200 años y la hemos ejercido de manera pacífica, tranquila y continua", declaró el canciller a radio Caracol.

Araújo aludió así al llamado de Ortega, el martes al Ejército nicaragüense, para que esté preparado ante lo que decida el jueves la Corte Internacional de Justicia (CIJ) sobre las objeciones de Colombia al reclamo de Managua de soberanía sobre 50.000 km2 en el mar Caribe.

"Nosotros no quisiéramos que este Ejército se viera enfrentado a ninguna acción bélica, pero debemos estar preparados" ante el fallo, dijo Ortega en una ceremonia militar.

El mandatario también llamó a su par colombiano, Alvaro Uribe, a aceptar la competencia de la CIJ, "porque si no está apostando a la ley del más fuerte y eso no tiene cabida en estos tiempos".

Araújo descartó que Bogotá vaya a alertar a sus tropas por las afirmaciones de Ortega. "No creo que se trate de eso, nuestras Fuerzas Militares están concentradas en el conflicto interno, en derrotar la amenaza terrorista, y no contemplamos escenarios de conflictos internacionales", sostuvo.

Asimismo, señaló que el gobierno colombiano espera "que el fallo se conozca mañana (jueves) y con base en él hará los comentarios pertinentes".

"Lo que nos corresponde es estar tranquilos. Tenemos todos los títulos históricos, el respaldo del tratado que firmamos en 1928 y que reconoció por parte de Nicaragua la soberanía de Colombia sobre el archipiélago» de San Andrés y Providencia, añadió.

El canciller desestimó que detrás del pronunciamiento de Ortega esté el presidente venezolano Hugo Chávez, enfrentado a Uribe por cesar su mediación para un canje de rehenes con la guerrilla colombiana.

"No tengo por qué pensar que se trata de sugerencias de un tercer país, de ninguna manera", dijo.

Con AFP.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 12, 2007, 07:59:

Sorry, Colombiche, but the issue with San Andrés has been boiling for quite a while, before Ortega was in power. The dispute is been there since who knows when, but during recent years Nicaragua has taken the diplomatic offensive on this issue and Uribe chose not to do anything. He was warned. Repeatedly. Now we're caught against the corner with the only choice of refusing to accept the jurisdiction of La Hague.

Chavez has little to do with this. Maybe Ortega's close relation to him has emboldened Nicaragua, but that's very far from Chavez's "dogs" being "unleashed." This is all due to Uribe's incompetent foreign policy.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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webmanco says on Dec 12, 2007, 08:03:

Perro que ladra no muerde, bueno de repente este sí sea la excepción.

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

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vicshere says on Dec 12, 2007, 08:04:

take Panama and give colombia san andres ...waht a great deal

listo

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Dec 12, 2007, 08:05:

Is there a rinky-dink medical school on San Andres with U.S. citizen students? If so, I'm joining the Marines - I want tropical island invasion duty.

;-)

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msaucey says on Dec 12, 2007, 08:09:

I'm sure there's been some late night whispering between Chavez and Ortega.... They are bored and are working on 2008 goals....

The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. - CS Lewis

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 12, 2007, 08:16:

Tinto: If the US decided to invade San Andres while Uribe is president, he'd be there to welcome the marines and offer Cartagena too. It would make your tour of duty much more enjoyable.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Miguel says on Dec 12, 2007, 08:34:

You are right Señor T, this issue has been going on for years, and if the USA decides to invade San Andres before Bush leaves office, Alvarito probably will invite Juan Valdéz for the photo op.

I am still trying to get a clue as to how business is done in Nicaragua. I was there in '72 after the earthquake with the Red Cross doing rescue duty and Somoza just decided that he was back in charge. It was my introduction to politics in Latin America.

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kalder says on Dec 12, 2007, 08:48:

San Andres used to be part of the British Empire. Perhaps they might like to come back?

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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webmanco says on Dec 12, 2007, 08:49:

Everyone wants a part of Colombia.

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

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Mr. Hollywood says on Dec 12, 2007, 08:56:

The funny thing is that Nicaragua could give a shit about the actual islands. What they want is the fishing and seabed rights, to expand their 'territorial waters.' Those Colombian lobsters are like gold.

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Colombiche says on Dec 12, 2007, 09:14:

"Sorry, Colombiche, but the issue with San Andrés has been boiling for quite a while, before Ortega was in power."

Yes it was, I am aware of that. But this sudden accusation from Ortega that colombia is behaving like an "empire" and a statement for the army to be prepared for combat.... seems like escalating the conflict, not long after Uribe's butting heads with Chavez.

Please, do you really think Chavez has nothing or "little" to do with this?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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slguy says on Dec 12, 2007, 09:41:

the "empire" comment tells it all, no?

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 12, 2007, 10:55:

Colombiche: There is nothing sudden about Ortega's behavior. The warnings given to the government were that we would eventually had to confront a belligerant Nicaragua, particularly if someone like Ortega was in power and if they were confident that La Hague would back them. The warnings were ignored and here we have the problem now. The presumed involvement of Chavez seems to be a convenient way of covering for Uribe's negligence.

Chavez probably has *something* to do with this (he apparently has *something* to do with everything that happens in LatAm anyway), but it has much more to do with the incompetence of Uribe's foreign policy. Our foreign relations ministry has become the laughing stock of diplomacy. As an example, look at this: http://www.semana.com/wf_InfoArticulo.aspx?IdArt=108226. Our diplomacy is not serious.

slguy: The "empire" comment doesn't mean much. Ortega has used that language since Chavez was just a soldier.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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slguy says on Dec 12, 2007, 10:58:

Talking about Colombia, he used "empire" for years?

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 12, 2007, 11:00:

Nah, he uses "empire" with whoever he's at odds with. A sort of generic derogatory term.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Colombiche says on Dec 12, 2007, 11:35:

"Talking about Colombia, he used "empire" for years?"

Well, I do recall that at one point ecuatorianos used to refer to us as "El coloso del Norte" jajaja.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Chelesupercono says on Dec 12, 2007, 11:59:

Ortega is a bumbling moron on his best days.....the Nicaraguan Military has no money, gas, ships or planes to fight any war with Colombia....what a joke.......I have lived in Nicaragua for 10 years and it is very sad to see what Ortega has done to this country in only one year......

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

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Gator says on Dec 12, 2007, 14:07:

"The warnings given to the government were that we would eventually had to confront a belligerant (sic) Nicaragua"

Right, who would like to take on a super power like Nicaragua? Ortega took the country down a rat hole before-just turn him loose. Colombia would beat Nicaragua like a rented mule.

"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

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Rob77 says on Dec 12, 2007, 14:17:

Ortega feels comfortable making noise now because he feels chavez will back him up. Throughout history, battles have been fought between ideologies on surrogate territories. Chavez may see this as an opportunity to get involved indirectly between the two ideologies, without any threat to his own homeland.

And more importantly, chavez may see this as a fresh method to unite his poor, ignorant supporters in his fight against the 'empire'. Since his support is waning, he needs an issue that will bring the people, and especially the military behind him. It will also help to distract voters from thinking about how many hours they wait in soviet era style food lines.

BOYCOTT CITGO - CHAVEZ SUCKS!!!

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manINred says on Dec 12, 2007, 14:45:

" If the US decided to invade San Andres while Uribe is president, he'd be there to welcome the marines and offer Cartagena too. It would make your tour of duty much more enjoyable"

That's a bit disingenuous, don't you think?

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manINred says on Dec 12, 2007, 14:49:

Actually speaking of Colombia's foreign policy, Uribe's government gets along very well with Canada's Harper government, to Uribe's (and Harper's) credit.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Dec 12, 2007, 14:58:

Chele..., I had the exact same thought. Image a brigade of Colombia's finest amphibious troops having a little game of tug-of-war with Nicaragua's boys. It would be over fast. And Uncle Sam would make sure Hugo stays in his corner.

Let's hope it never comes to that.

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Chelesupercono says on Dec 12, 2007, 15:10:

It never will for a lot of reasons, because these idiots could not find their ass with both hands tied behind their backs......Ortega and the Sandinista party are pure scum...

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 12, 2007, 15:31:

Now that the participation of Chavez is mostly discounted... let's be serious, the idea is NOT to get into a fight with Nicaragua. Not because they are a formidable military opponent, which they clearly aren't, but because it is generally a good idea to have good relations with your neighbors. Uribe has not kept track of this issue, and now the Nicaraguans are demanding attention. That's not precisely the best way of making friends.

If I were Ortega I wouldn't try to get Chavez or The Hague on my side: I'd try to get Bush on my side. If Bush asked Uribe to give away San Andres, he'd do it, in a second. It would be a display of solidarity in the war against terrorism, and those who disagree just don't understand the "superior intelligence" of our president.

(Hey, that's a more likely scenario than Gator's conspiracy-theory movie).

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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billyb says on Dec 12, 2007, 15:56:

"If Bush asked Uribe to give away San Andres, he'd do it, in a second"

Hyperbole? Or do you really believe this statement??

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 12, 2007, 15:58:

For whatever it's worth...

I read a bit more about what Ortega actually said. He admits that militarily it cannot compete with Colombia, and precisely because of that he alleges that Colombia is behaving as an "empire." The reference is to connect Colombia's attitude in this disagreement with the way most people perceive the US solves its conflicts: by means of force and disregarding international law. I'm sure that reference elicits some negative emotions, a bit of nationalism, and so on.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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slguy says on Dec 12, 2007, 16:00:

It also elicits "what an idiot that Ortega is!"

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 12, 2007, 16:04:

On some people, yes. But maybe not so much in his audience.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Colombiche says on Dec 12, 2007, 16:19:

You left something out Sir T. Ortega claimed that he doesn't want the army to go into combat, but.... they must be READY. This is exactly what he said:

"Nosotros no quisiéramos que este Ejército se viera enfrentado a ninguna acción bélica, pero debemos estar preparados"

Uhm, Colombia never threatened to attack Nicaragua, so why is he calling on the army to prepare? Sounds like if things don't go his way he is willing to put all his ducks in a row.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Dec 12, 2007, 16:23:

Uhm, Colombia never threatened to attack Nicaragua, so why is he calling on the army to prepare?

-------------------------

Because that's what Latin American politicians do. They stand on balconies overlooking the main square, punch the air with their fists and spout hyperbole and threats. The more creative ones also invent ridiculous superlatives to describe themselves and their imagined enemies. Maybe there is a special university course for aspiring politicians...

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Robert Jorge says on Dec 12, 2007, 16:39:

Germans used to do that too Tinto.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 12, 2007, 16:45:

Exactly as Tinto says: I wouldn't take seriously a word ANYONE says in one of these speeches. They are not meant to inform, just to rally support. And BTW, one of the masters of this exotic art is our beloved president. Remember after the Canton Norte bomb? In one of his most histrionic fits he yelled, regarding Ingrid, "Generals! Rescue her! I beg you!" And as soon as he started begging for it, the military got into action... right...

People love that shit.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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scotty says on Dec 12, 2007, 17:26:

didnt we already spank Ortega once before? is this punk coming back for more spankings? as far as Chavez...ha! he's a joke, Uribe will spank him.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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vladimiro says on Dec 12, 2007, 17:30:

At any rate, I think the Blacks on San Andres would prefer independence for their island or to be part of Jamaica rather than belonging to Colombia or Nicaragua.

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juancegomez says on Dec 12, 2007, 17:53:

vladimiro: The mention of Jamaica aside...you mean some among the native blacks, which are IIRC mostly in Providencia and not in San Andrés, where a lot more people (blacks included) coming from the mainland are present.

Which is why that's probably not what's going to happen or, at best, would likely affect Providencia more than San Andrés. But that's just speculation at this point.

As for the main subject...it's just hot air, but it's possible that the stupidly aggressive way in which Uribe threw the door on Chávez's mediation efforts does have something of an influence in this, like it's having an apparently bigger impact on the ELN talks as well (see EL TIEMPO's front page).

Doesn't mean that Nicaragua would have an *entirely* different position if Chávez wanted, however, but it's certainly not a positive factor to have pissed him off. Nicaragua's not his "dog", but they are still quite friendly.

Finally, even if the Hague decides tomorrow that it has jurisdiction over the case, it hardly means that Nicaragua has "won" the legal battle. It would only be the beginning.

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Colombiche says on Dec 12, 2007, 18:25:

Nicaragua is not his dog, but Ortega is.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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billyb says on Dec 12, 2007, 18:29:

More like his bitch.

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manINred says on Dec 12, 2007, 19:38:

"Because that's what Latin American politicians do. They stand on balconies overlooking the main square, punch the air with their fists and spout hyperbole and threats. "

haha, well put! actually, include most politicians who don't have the capacity of a US or Russia!

" If Bush asked Uribe to give away San Andres, he'd do it, in a second. It would be a display of solidarity in the war against terrorism"

I have no idea why Bush would construct such a ludicrous argument, claiming that giving away San Andres is a display of solidarity in the war on terror. I doubt Uribe would follow it, unless Colombia were to see some sort of massive benefit. I think Uribe generally holds Colombia's interests at hand over anything else.

Personally, I think Ortega is a moron.

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 12, 2007, 22:28:

"I think Uribe generally holds Colombia's interests at hand over anything else."

Is it December 28th already??

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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miamimike says on Dec 12, 2007, 22:45:

Its hard to believe Ortega is back in Office for a second Time! What does this say about the Citizens Voting him in again?? Not too Bright to reinstall this Tinhorn twice. Some of those US Investors who bought real estate there in the last 10 years are sweating bullets. Caveat Emptor on Investing in real estate in some Latin American Countries, Nicaragua is a prime example of what can go wrong. IL(international Living) is somewhat to blame for theinvestment Euphoria as they pushed hard in that country. Now, IL has Colombia in its sights,,,

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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scotty says on Dec 13, 2007, 00:48:

yea Ortega is Chavez lapdog.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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vladimiro says on Dec 13, 2007, 05:03:

I seem to remember Ortega being elected president of Nicaragua long before Chavez came to power, and then being overthrown by US-backed CONTRAS terrorists who were financed with the proceeds from illegal arms sales to Iran.(Incedentally, one Republican presidential candidate is claiming that he will be tough on Iran like Reagan, by which I assume he means that he will send more plane loads of weapons and a hand inscribed Bible to the Iranian leadership). Ortega has been an important figure in Nicaraguan politics since before Chavez moved to Caracas from his village to try to become pro baseball player.

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juancegomez says on Dec 13, 2007, 05:19:

Ortega wasn't exactly overthrown, however, since he lost the 1990 election. You can argue that this wouldn't have happened if not for the war and the contras, but he didn't lose power through a coup or anything like it.

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billyb says on Dec 13, 2007, 06:43:

Vlad, memory seems to fail you. He lost 3 elections before finally winning this last one, but why let facts get in the way of good rant, right?

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Rikito says on Dec 13, 2007, 06:47:

The court ruled that the San Andres Islands belong to Colombia.

It is not life that matters, but the journey.

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Golden Boy says on Dec 13, 2007, 07:50:

Vlad,

And the only way Ortega was able to get elected was with the benefit of a three way race and the crooked "el pacto" he rigged with disgraced former President Aleman.

And Reagan also destroyed a good chunk of Iran's navy in 1987.

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