Chavez lost the referendum

john_stark says on Dec 2, 2007, 22:15:

He's already Il Duce, he doesn't need to launch a coup. It's his former buddies who may launch a coup and have him swinging off a pole somewhere.

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scotty says on Dec 2, 2007, 22:34:

you know you can push people just so far before they say enough is enough, i think the people of venezuela have just about had their fill of mister big mouth Chavez.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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christobeldawg says on Dec 2, 2007, 22:34:

back to miniskirts? that may actually be more important, but in the short term, I think it is impressive that the people voted against him on these referendums. look it up, or look up it?

admittedly, arriving can feel great too

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scotty says on Dec 2, 2007, 22:45:

yea Sean Penn must be crying in his beer for his good buddy Chavez

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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christobeldawg says on Dec 2, 2007, 22:47:

CARACAS (Reuters) - Venezuelans have rejected President Hugo Chavez's bid to win new powers and run for re-election for decades to come in an unprecedented defeat that could slow his socialist revolution in the OPEC nation.

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In a fiercely contested referendum on Sunday, voters said "No" to reforms that would have scrapped term limits on Chavez's rule, given him control over foreign currency reserves and boosted his powers to expropriate private property.

Election officials said early on Monday that the "No" camp had about 51 percent of the vote and the anti-U.S. president scored around 49 percent support.

Opposition celebrations immediately erupted throughout Caracas with caravans of activists cheering, honking horns and waving flags out of car windows.

Although he remains powerful and popular, it was Chavez's biggest vote blow since he swept to power in a 1998 election.

He quickly conceded defeat but insisted he would "continue in the battle to build socialism." He also said the reforms had failed "for now" and they were "still alive," suggesting he might try again to push them through later on.

Students, rights and business groups, opposition parties, the Roman Catholic Church, former political allies and even his usually loyal ex-wife all lined up against Chavez ahead of the referendum vote on Sunday.

They accused him of pushing the constitutional reforms to set up a dictatorship.

Enough voters also balked at giving more power to a firebrand leader who calls Cuban leader Fidel Castro his "father," capitalism an evil and himself "El Comandante."

Admired as a champion of the poor in city slums and rural villages, the 53-year-old Chavez has said he wants to rule until he dies.

He had warned before the vote that a defeat could sink his revolution and prompt him to think about a successor. Without a constitutional reform, he will have to step down in 2013. But he took a different stance after the defeat.

'NOT A DEFEAT'

"This is not a defeat, it is another 'for now'," he said, repeating a famous quote from 1992 when as a red-bereted paratrooper he went on national television and acknowledged his coup attempt had failed.

The referendum was a major victory for Venezuela's fragmented opposition, which had failed to beat Chavez in almost yearly votes or oust him in a brief coup in 2002, a national oil strike and a recall referendum.

The victory could embolden opposition leaders to try to block Chavez's plans to install what he calls "21st century socialism," which has involved nationalizing large areas of the economy in the No. 4 oil supplier to the United States.

"This should cause him to rethink the pace and scope of the changes he is seeking to impose on Venezuela," said Vinay Jawahar, an analyst at Princeton University.

"Whether this will happen, however, is unclear. Chavez could never be accused of not having grandiose, ambitious plans and might not be willing to let reality impinge on those."

Chavez still wields enormous power in a country he has pledged to turn into a socialist state. His supporters dominate Congress, the courts and election authorities.

Soldiers bark his slogan "homeland, socialism or death" when they snap their salutes. The state oil company spends more on social projects such as building homes than on exploration of some of the biggest deposits outside the Middle East.

Chavez had tried to make the referendum vote a black-and-white plebiscite on his rule and sought to rally his supporters with warnings that he was under attack from Washington and other foreign enemies.

admittedly, arriving can feel great too

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goin_south says on Dec 2, 2007, 23:55:

We use to be allowed to call others here: 'slimy-left-of-commy-pinko-fagget'... but...
those days are gone;
I think Chavez still has a hold on PBH ;o-)

...so, I'll refrain.

Some say: All things are better in...Medellin! ....Oscar Lopez just says it's better.....LATE!!! (WHERE EVER YOU ARE)

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scotty says on Dec 2, 2007, 23:57:

no respectable duck would be caught hanging around Chavez

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 3, 2007, 00:06:

I don't give a fuck who's crying over this.

I want my donut.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Robert Jorge says on Dec 3, 2007, 00:09:

Me too. A lemon filled powdered Dunkin Donut. ya!

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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goin_south says on Dec 3, 2007, 00:11:

how 'bout some donut holes?

Some say: All things are better in...Medellin! ....Oscar Lopez just says it's better.....LATE!!! (WHERE EVER YOU ARE)

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podborski says on Dec 3, 2007, 03:07:

"insane obsession" (I believe that's what my 3rd grade teacher tried to teach us was called 'hyperbole'?)

yeah, I dunno what on earth the socialist revolution on Colombia's border has to do with Colombia, can we stay focused on ajiaco and arepas please?

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Rikito says on Dec 3, 2007, 03:22:

Ok 'pod' what flavor do you want? The rest of you line up behind the man. I will gladly pay off on jelly donuts for everyone. Now where did I put those cupons?

It is not life that matters, but the journey.

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slguy says on Dec 3, 2007, 05:55:

I have to admit that Chavez' concession of defeat pleasantly surprised me.

But he also only called called his being told by Uribe to go away "regrettable" - the first day.

I hope the buffoon is sincere in accepting being spanked by his people. If he remains meek in the face of his loss, my opinion of him will change- a little.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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toneloc24 says on Dec 3, 2007, 06:53:

What??? The Venezuelans understand Democracy???? No way!!!!!

Where are all the folks lining up to challenge the results now????

Just another statement that we really should stay out of the internal politics of other countries. They know exactly what they're doing, or will figure it out soon enough.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

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podborski says on Dec 3, 2007, 08:16:

slguy you are more optimistic than I...I believe he'll be back again with another ploy. This is just a very temporary setback.

Time will tell.

I guess mini skirts will survive for the time being, whew!

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slguy says on Dec 3, 2007, 08:34:

Pod, I'm not really optimistic - only trying to tone down my rhetoric a bit. ;)

I'm guessing he'll be back with more BS, sooner rather than later.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Gator says on Dec 3, 2007, 08:35:

¡ Gracias a Dios!

But it ain't over until the fat lady (colonel) sings.

"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

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podborski says on Dec 3, 2007, 08:48:

looks like he's already giving notice it isn't over yet:

http://www.lanacion.com.ar/exterior/nota.asp?nota_id=967756&pid=360017...

I thought he might wait a bit before making these kind of statements ("POR AHORA no pudimos"), bit I guess I am wrong again

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miamimike says on Dec 3, 2007, 08:57:

Toneloc--My thoughts exactly-they have their Business, we, the USA, have our own problems and since he doesn't have any missiles aimed at us, let them be. Not our Job to play Policeman to the entire world. I would also pull the MONEY out of these Countries, including Colombia. We have our Returning War Vets from Iraq who need Medical Care and this Money would be greatly appreciated by our War Vets going to the VA Hospitals. I don't feel our Money is appreciated, Colombia included. Seems the only thing we hear is criticism when we help so lets take a different route in the future,,,Keep the $$$ at home

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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Robert Jorge says on Dec 3, 2007, 09:54:

I think I remember there are only a couple of places that can refine the heavy crude Venezuela puts out. I could be totally wrong, but I seem to remember Aruba and Houston were the only places that are capable of this. Accurate?

But if this is true, any measure the US took oil-wise would leave him (Chavez) without a very good set of cards on the flop.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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aztec says on Dec 3, 2007, 10:03:

No. The Refinery on St Croix in the U.S. Virgin Islands takes care of Venezuelan heavy crude.

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Robert Jorge says on Dec 3, 2007, 11:07:

Oh, Virgin Islands ... I for some reason had Aruba stuck in my mind.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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slguy says on Dec 3, 2007, 11:19:

The refinery in St. John is, or was, Amerada Hess, at one point the biggest on earth.

To my knowledge, Citgo has no ownership stake in that one, but I could be mistaken. It's been almost ten years since I had any reason to keep track of it....

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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usher127 says on Dec 3, 2007, 13:04:

This is indeed a very positive day for Chavez. Perhaps, finally some of the Gringos on this thread will wake up and realise that he is not a dictator. He accepted his defeat. The voting was fair, as it always has been. And its clear, that a good many people in Venezuela still support him... despite all the horror stories from people who have never left the state of Alabama.

But, still we endure the confused, cliché language typically found in US media...

"They accused him of pushing the constitutional reforms to set up a dictatorship".

Do people refer to the political system in the United Kingdom as a dictatorship... No they don't, even though our elected prime minister can be re-elected indefinitely.

Really, some of you are so misled and confused, perhaps, you would be better off with a dictator making decisions for you.

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slguy says on Dec 3, 2007, 13:28:

usher, you are nothing if not consistant.

a positive day for Chavez?

you gave me the giggles again.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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billyb says on Dec 3, 2007, 13:29:

"you gave me the giggles again"

That must be because he has a Mr. Tickle avatar.

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aztec says on Dec 3, 2007, 15:04:

"but I seem to remember Aruba and Houston were the only places that are capable of this. Accurate?" RJ

GIB, I was responding to the question from RJ. There are more refineries handling Venezuela crude. I was told the last time I was onSt. Croix that the refinery belonged to the Venezuela oil company. But, I can't document that for sure.

I have been on the site and it is unbelievable. HUGE!!

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Dec 3, 2007, 15:17:

I looked at the Hess (Amerada Hess) website earlier today. The St. Croix facility is a joint venture with PdVSA. They call it a 'merchant refinery' - I think that means they'll buy crude from anyone but a large portion comes from Venezuela.

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slguy says on Dec 3, 2007, 15:35:

Thanks, Tinto. My company did work there years ago- but I lost track after I sold the company...

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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podborski says on Dec 3, 2007, 17:52:

"This is indeed a very positive day for Chavez. Perhaps, finally some of the Gringos on this thread will wake up and realise that he is not a dictator."

jajaja! yes I'm sure Chavez is thinking: "well I lost the referendum, but at least those insanely obsessed PBHrs' will finally leave me alone, they probably cost me the vote, those # at $%^!s!"

So let's see, Chavez openly admires totalitarian regimes and leaders, vows to copy them, then loses a referendum that would have been a huge step towards a totalitarian regime and suddenly he's equivalent to the PM of England, jajajajajajajajaja!

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Plato says on Dec 3, 2007, 18:25:

Thanks all of you! Just got home from an extremely busy day and wanted to know what happened in Venezeula.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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miamimike says on Dec 3, 2007, 20:15:

I drove by Various Citgo gas Stations here in Hialeah, Little habana, Weston today.The Stations were full and many of these Neighborhoods are chocked full of Anti-Chavistas. No shortage of Customers many of whom were probably Cubans and Venezuelans. Hipocracy to the 3rd degree! They hate (or profess to) Chavez but line up to Buy at his gastations! LOL Again for all the Blustery rhetoric between the 2 countries, Trade between the US and Venezuela HIT record levels this year here in Miami. Venezuela is on a Buying spree here in the USA and Ships loaded to the Gills cast off every day bound for Venezuela loaded with Oil Industry Equip, Luxury Cars, Computers, appliances, All types of Heavy Construction Equipment. Go Figure,,,

"Do as we say, Not as we do" is their Motto(exile cuban& venezuelans here in miami)

Depending on what Business Journal you read, They say Chavez owns as high as 7 refineries and as a few as 3 but they refine Heavy Crude(venezuelan type) so their capacity is critical to us in the USA. And its extremely difficult to get any type of New Refinery built these days in the US due to EPA Regs.

http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article000357554.cfm?x=b11,0,w

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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john_stark says on Dec 3, 2007, 21:17:

I, along with many people I know, refuse to ever buy gas at a Citgo. Chavez can eat his sludgy oil as far as I am concerned. If it were up to me, I'd nuke Caracas.

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goin_south says on Dec 3, 2007, 22:26:

Acuerdo! J_S.
and, Great avatar, Tinoto!

Some say: All things are better in...Medellin! ....Oscar Lopez just says it's better.....LATE!!! (WHERE EVER YOU ARE)

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miamimike says on Dec 4, 2007, 12:45:

GIB--have to disagree with you! If we lose those Refineries our ass would be grass. Gas would spike to $5 per gallon minimally! Try building a new Refinery! Where would we get this Capacity?? If you follow the Oil Industry, its not that there is a lack of Oil coming into the US, but a lack of Refining Capacity. Herein lies the problem,,,

In my Old Hometown of Erie, Pa We lived across the road from the now closed HammerMill Paper Plant(famous Bond typing paper). The built a Biodiesel Plant on the grounds last year but what a hassle to get it online. Next, since there is a lot unused capacity on the grounds, they(owners) decided to recycle old car tires (gassification process) into Energy. The Neighbors are protesting "Not In Our City" and so on. This is the same story all over the USA even its in the middle of Nowhere, always some Lizard of Owl, butterfly ect will need to be protected. That or adapt much higher CAFE Vehicle Mileage Standards that use much less gas or diesel so we aren't reliant on Tinhorns like Chavez or these Arab Sheiks for Fuel. A Lot of this Oil Dependency is our own Damn fault sorry to say. America just won't give their love affair with their gas Hog cars&SUVs,,,I do my Part--proud owner of a VW New Beetle Turbo Diesel,,,37 city/54 highway. I laugh when I pass the GasPumps! LOL

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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miamimike says on Dec 4, 2007, 13:01:

JS-Sorry to inform you but the same Fuel tankers(mcMillan here in Miami) that fill the Citgo tanks here in Miami also fill Valero , Exxon, Shell, Texaco and Marathon tanks ect.They load up their trucks at the Generic Tank Farms in Ft Lauderdale--so unless the USA refuses to allow Venezuelan Tankers to unload their Oil/ Fuel at our tank Docks,how do you know what the country of Origin by the time it arrives refined at your gas Station? The Answer you don't! If it makes you feel better, sure, buy somewhere else,,,LOL,,,But chances are, Hugo's prescence is probably in your gas Tank,,,And Smiling at the $3.30 per gallon you payed,,LOL

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Dec 4, 2007, 13:13:

Mike, you're not accounting for the fact that Venezuela's oil has to go somewhere. There is no Venezuela (and no Chavez) if they are unable to export oil. So they'd send it to China, receive a lot less money for it, and we'd buy the supply the Chinese no longer needed. Supply and demand doesn't change plus we have a 60 day cushion in the US SPR. Net result: no sustained price spike.

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aztec says on Dec 4, 2007, 16:28:

A professor of Economics (specialist in oil) told me that oil is fungible. Don't really understand what he was talking about. It is something about it doesn't matter where a country sells the oil. It is on the world market and will fluctuate to a level and location where supply and demand dictates.

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john_stark says on Dec 4, 2007, 17:37:

I'm sure that I have bought gasoline refined from Venezuelan oil but not at a Citgo. At least they're not getting the sale along with what markup there is. I worked for Phillips Petroleum for several years so I know that gasoline is a fungible commodity.

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Rob77 says on Dec 4, 2007, 22:09:

Don't be fooled by chavez's acceptance of defeat. There is no democracy in Venezuela. There has not been since chavez took over. And the referendum was far from democratic.

Those who did not read the details would be shocked to find out how the referendum was structured. There were several propositions up for voting. But, they were all bundled together into 2 groups. You had no choice but to vote for or against the entire package of propositions. For example, the proposition to reduce the work day from 8 to 6 hours was grouped together with the proposition to allow chavez unlimited elections. If you wanted to vote in favor of reducing the work day, you had to support chavez's dictatorship.

When you look at it in this way, it is even more impressive that voters in Venezuela voted against the packages in order to prevent chavez from continuing his reign of economic torture on Venezuela.

He is now walking a fine line. His former head of defense turned on him. That is the type of guy who is powerful enough to boot your ass out of office overnight, while the lights are out. When a bunch of top military see signs of weakness in the chief, a coup becomes a strong possibility.

Think just how few countries would mourn chavez being booted out overnight. Not many. Maybe Bolivia, Nicaragua and Iran. Everyone else, including Spain, Colombia, Peru, Chile, Mexico, Saudi Arabia . . . would be happy to see him go~!

BOYCOTT CITGO - CHAVEZ SUCKS!!!

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Rikito says on Dec 5, 2007, 05:42:

Guys, you are trying to simplify a complex subject. What is heavy or sour crude? Heavy crude oil containing high levels of sulfur compounds, the facilities and equipment to handle heavy or sour crude are significantly more complex. Heavy crude also contains more stuff in it than sweet crude that is corrosive and some of little commercial value. In other words, you can make more money from sweet crude because it is a better quality product, easy to refine, and easy to produce. The big problem with heavy crude is that most of world’s refining ability, particularly in Asia, simply can't process it. Or won't...because of cost.

Also when discussing oil you can never leave out: political factors, where the refineries are located, and where the crude comes from in comparison to where it must be refined. Crude oil also takes a lot more of an effort to get it out of the ground.

The whole subject of crude is written in volumes of books. The pricing of crude and refined products alone will amaze you.

The size of a refinery does not mean as much as you think. A lot depends on where it is located (must have tons and tons and gallons and gallons of fresh water which is probably the most important single aspect of oil refining. Why? The refineries or distillation units must be temperature controlled and constantly cooled and you cannot do that with saltwater.

I don't want to discuss this too much more because 1) I do not know all there is to be known about oil refineries although I worked in them for 15 years. and; the subject is too diverse to simplify. The Oil and Gas Journal has some of the best information you can get and they will always answer you questions freely. Also, the Petroleum Intelligence Weekly can give you some of the most current information.

Anyway, here is a list of the largest oil refineries in the world, but the list changes as countries and companies choose to increase their refinery capacity.

Paraguana Refining Complex (CRP)encompasses two refineries; Amuay and Cardón - 940,000
SK Corporation, South Korea - 817,000
Reliance I, India - 661,000
GS Caltex, South Korea - 650,000
ExxonMobil, Singapore - 605,000
Reliance II, India (proposed) - 580,000
ExxonMobil, Baytown, USA - 557,000
Citgo Lake Charles, USA - 545,000
S-Oil, South Korea - 520,000
Hovensa LLC, Virgin Islands - 495,000
ExxonMobil, Baton Rouge, USA - 493,500
Shell Eastern, Singapore - 458,000
Saudi Aramco Yanbu Refinery - 400,000
ExxonMobil, Beaumont TX, USA - 348,500
Chevron Pascagoula, MS, USA - 300,000
--Source: Oil & Gas Journal

It is not life that matters, but the journey.

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Rikito says on Dec 5, 2007, 06:13:

One more item, here is a 2002 list of oil reining capacity by country which is far more important then who has the biggest refinery. You will see that although Venezuela has the 5th large refinery, but they do not have much capacity as compared to world's top porducers. Why? They lack technology and they cannot get the technology unless they arew willing to be an equal palyer on the world market. In other words...Venzuela who? In fact, they refused to provide exactly what thier verifiable capacity is so they are not even listed

Also, if your were to consider the tars sands in Canda (which is not listed yet) Canda would be one of the largest if not largest curde oil producers in the world.

#1 Russia: 6,600,000 barrels per day
#2 Japan: 4,800,000 barrels per day
#3 China: 4,500,000 barrels per day
#4 Korea, South: 2,600,000 barrels per day
#5 Italy: 2,300,000 barrels per day
#6 India: 2,100,000 barrels per day
#7 France: 1,900,000 barrels per day
#8 Brazil: 1,800,000 barrels per day
#9 Saudi Arabia: 1,750,000 barrels per day
#10 Mexico: 1,700,000 barrels per day
#11 Spain: 1,300,000 barrels per day
#12 Singapore: 1,300,000 barrels per day
#13 Taiwan: 1,220,000 barrels per day
#14 Ukraine: 1,150,000 barrels per day
#15 Indonesia: 992,745 barrels per day
#16 Kuwait: 889,200 barrels per day
#17 Australia: 846,250 barrels per day
#18 Egypt: 726,250 barrels per day
#19 Turkey: 719,275 barrels per day
#20 Thailand: 681,750 barrels per day
#21 United Arab Emirates: 514,750 barrels per day
#22 Malaysia: 514,500 barrels per day
#23 South Africa: 468,547 barrels per day
#24 Azerbaijan: 442,000 barrels per day
#25 Nigeria: 438,750 barrels per day
#26 Kazakhstan: 427,000 barrels per day
#27 Greece: 406,500 barrels per day
#28 Libya: 343,400 barrels per day
#29 Norway: 310,000 barrels per day
#30 Portugal: 304,172 barrels per day
#31 Colombia: 285,850 barrels per day
#32 Bahrain: 248,900 barrels per day
#33 Syria: 239,865 barrels per day
#34 Pakistan: 238,850 barrels per day
#35 Israel: 220,000 barrels per day
#36 Peru: 190,950 barrels per day
#37 Ecuador: 176,000 barrels per day
#38 Yemen: 130,000 barrels per day
#39 Jordan: 90,400 barrels per day
#40 Oman: 85,000 barrels per day
#41 Korea, North: 71,000 barrels per day
#42 Bolivia: 63,000 barrels per day
#43 Panama: 60,000 barrels per day
#44 Qatar: 57,500 barrels per day
#45 Cameroon: 42,000 barrels per day
#46 Bangladesh: 33,000 barrels per day
#47 Guatemala: 22,000 barrels per day
#48 Gabon: 17,300 barrels per day
#49 Brunei: 8,600 barrels per day
#50 Paraguay: 7,500 barrels per day
#51 Iran: 1.47 barrels per day

It is not life that matters, but the journey.

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billyb says on Dec 5, 2007, 06:34:

Soon to be known as the "51st state" :))

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Dec 5, 2007, 06:37:

Go to www.eia.doe.gov for statistics and reports galore about all kinds of energy related things.

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podborski says on Dec 5, 2007, 07:56:

watch out billy b, I'll put our mullet headed toothless hockey players against your california surfer dudes anytime

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billyb says on Dec 5, 2007, 08:08:

Nope, you win there, wouldn't want to mess with those toothless MFers, jajaja. Surfers are lovers not fighters.

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goin_south says on Dec 5, 2007, 23:36:

So, any more interesting/significant fall-out? since Sunday's de-feet?

Some say: All things are better in...Medellin! ....Oscar Lopez just says it's better.....LATE!!! (WHERE EVER YOU ARE)

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Rikito says on Dec 7, 2007, 05:10:

dogman trust me, there is nothing to like about Saudi Arabia. I lived there for 5 years from 1996 to 2001. Saudi's are the trash heap of the earth. If the Saudi's executed all of the murders and child molesters then half of the royal family would be gone. According to thier religion (which is not an actual religion, but a depraved satanic cult) they can mary women who are 9 years old. Now there is a man for you! A 30 something Saudi with a nine year old wife. No child molesters there! Thier non-religious cult of Wahabiism has casued most of the problems in the middles east.

My soulution that many have heard is to, kill em all and let god sort it out.

I would love to see Cassini try to exist in Saudi Arabia for one day. He might be able to communicate his thoughts in more than one simple sentence.

It is not life that matters, but the journey.

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